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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with former Deputy State

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Speaker 1: Coroner Hugh Dylon, we talk about some of the cases

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Speaker 1: you oversaw in his nine years as a deputy state coroner.

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Speaker 1: We talk about murders, about suicides, missing persons, and even

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Speaker 1: critical incidents that's where someone has died as a result

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Speaker 1: of a police operation or in custody. But probably the

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Speaker 1: most important thing we talk about is how we can

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Speaker 1: improve the coronial system. We're lucky to have someone who's

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Speaker 1: experiences Hugh Dylan to talk about such an important role. Hew,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to our catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Gary.

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Speaker 1: It's great sitting down talking to you. In saying that,

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Speaker 1: it just makes me reflect on all the things that

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Speaker 1: you see and do in the career that you've had.

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Speaker 1: In the amount of times I've been in the Coroner's court.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about the Coroner's court I did

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Speaker 1: most of my career in Glebe Currenter's Court, or even

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Speaker 1: now that at Westmead, I'm glad the courts have finally upgraded.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it's a pretty spick and span new building. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure the system is, but maybe we'll

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Speaker 2: get all.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the system, because I'm always

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Speaker 1: in a grants something could be improved, and especially something

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Speaker 1: as important as the coeronial process, we should at the

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Speaker 1: very least talk about it. So we'll definitely cover off

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Speaker 1: on that. But I remember with the Globe Coronis Court

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Speaker 1: because quite often there's people that there's the families of

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Speaker 1: the victims and there's also people that the family suspected

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Speaker 1: being involved, and there was a very small meeting point

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Speaker 1: and from a police officer's point of view, trying to

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Speaker 1: keep the parties apart was near impossible in that environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine. So I fortunately didn't have to deal

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Speaker 2: with that myself, but I was aware. I was constantly

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Speaker 2: aware of the potential for clashes or even for the

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Speaker 2: need for security on occasions, fortunately not very many. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, that could be very tense meeting places. It

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Speaker 2: was a very confined environment.

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Speaker 1: It made it difficult. One case I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about, and I want to talk in general

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Speaker 1: about critical incidence, But just as a point of reference,

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Speaker 1: was the death of Ryan Pringle as a result of

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Speaker 1: a police shooting. Now. I think that was in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 1: It was up in Tenterfield. I was a senior investigating

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Speaker 1: officer for that, for the Critical Incident Team. I was

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Speaker 1: working in homicide and got called out I think it

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Speaker 1: was a Sunday night, and flown up to ten to

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Speaker 1: fill the circumstances in which that occurred. You and I

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Speaker 1: have spoken about it, because you ever saw the inquest

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Speaker 1: into the matter. It was quite horrific, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's extraordinary. That was a truly nightmarriash case. Usually when

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Speaker 2: police are involved in some sort of scenario and someone dies,

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Speaker 2: they've come on a scene where someone's threatening others and

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Speaker 2: so forth. In this case, mister Pringle was actually hunting

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Speaker 2: the police themselves, which was well put me a mind

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Speaker 2: of the film Deliverance.

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Speaker 1: You say Deliverance, And it was a horrendous situation. As

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Speaker 1: I said, I got called out on a Sunday night

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Speaker 1: flowing up there what happened in this particular situation that

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Speaker 1: was at a farm that was called the School of Happiness,

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Speaker 1: which was a type of a hippie gathering if you

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Speaker 1: would probably a way of describing it. There for a festival,

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Speaker 1: and they were camping down near a river, so there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of vans and different things and buses

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Speaker 1: down there a river, and Ryan had been involved in

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Speaker 1: a confrontation with some of the members at this festival.

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Speaker 1: Police have been called and that it's public record. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned their names, Karen Peasley and Carter that Knivett were

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Speaker 1: called out and they were actually married, their husband and

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Speaker 1: wife team. They've gone out to this location and there's

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Speaker 1: no communication. So we're looking at Tenterfield, the town. It

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Speaker 1: was about an hour's drive out from there, in a

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Speaker 1: very remote location with no communication. Not just a police

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Speaker 1: radio telephones. There was black spots all over the place.

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Speaker 1: They get out there and Ryan's decided to start stalking them.

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Speaker 1: The police I thought were very brave in that they

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Speaker 1: went and gathered up all the people at the festival

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Speaker 1: and got them all to travel out. Was like a

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Speaker 1: wagon train, getting getting everyone to pack up their gear

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Speaker 1: and getting their vans and follow the police car. Just

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Speaker 1: as they're about to move off, and this is in

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Speaker 1: late at night and the pitch black there, Ryan's come

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Speaker 1: out of the shadows and calling out the police and

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Speaker 1: threatening to kill them, and it ended up in a

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Speaker 1: chase round a van and taser was deployed and then

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Speaker 1: eventually Ryan was shot before and he had a laded

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Speaker 1: cross aimed at the police. Absolutely horrendous circumstances. I compiled

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Speaker 1: the brief of evidence and provided to you as a coroner.

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Speaker 1: What's your takeaway from a situation like that? Because no

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Speaker 1: one wins, a person's lost their life, but the people

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Speaker 1: have been terrified by witnessing what had occurred. What's your

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Speaker 1: takeaway from an incident like that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a number of takeaways. The

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Speaker 2: first The first thing is, obviously your life has been lost,

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Speaker 2: and in this particular case, there were tragic elements of it.

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Speaker 2: Ryan lost his life because he threatened the police and

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Speaker 2: they acted in self defense. But whether he was mentally

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Speaker 2: sound or not, you'd have to you'd have to doubt

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Speaker 2: it'd been dabbling in drugs and so on and so forth,

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Speaker 2: and so that said something sad about his life. I

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Speaker 2: think his father I remember being very affected by Ryan's death,

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Speaker 2: but not angry so much as sad, and I felt

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Speaker 2: really sorry for him, and of course for the extended

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Speaker 2: Prinkle family. The Prinkle family has to live with Ryan's death.

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Speaker 2: But unusually, the police here were almost victims themselves, and

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine how terrifying that must have been, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, to have someone hunting you with a crossbow,

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Speaker 2: as you said, pitch darkness, armed only with tortures and

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Speaker 2: so forth, and the torch, of course, could show show

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Speaker 2: Ryan where you were as much as possibly illuminate him.

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Speaker 2: So an incredibly frightening situation. And then the police were

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Speaker 2: trying to protect a whole gaggle of people who were

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Speaker 2: simply there for a good weekend and so forth. They

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Speaker 2: were ordinary country police, you know, just decent people trying

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Speaker 2: to protect members of their community and suddenly they're being

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Speaker 2: hunted for their lives.

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Speaker 1: Well, the way you describe it them referencing the movie

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Speaker 1: Deliverance had that feel about it because they were being

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Speaker 1: hunted and he was calling out, addressing camouflage gear, making

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Speaker 1: threats against them, asking all the other people to join

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Speaker 1: in and kill the police. It was something that was surreal,

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Speaker 1: and I remember part of my role as a critical

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Speaker 1: incident investigator that I had to interview the police involved,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that very professional, but it was traumatic

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Speaker 1: listening to them recount what had happened, and at no

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Speaker 1: point they could shine their torch, but then they'd have

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Speaker 1: to turn their torch off because if they're shining their

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Speaker 1: torch trying to see in the dark where he was

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Speaker 1: coming from, they potentially made themselves targets exactly, and they

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Speaker 1: did everything they could to avoid the confrontation and all

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Speaker 1: the warnings and literally running around the van with him

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Speaker 1: chasing them. It was just a horrendous situation. And then

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Speaker 1: add to it, and I think it gave me a

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Speaker 1: lot of respect for what country cops do, Like there

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Speaker 1: weren't there wasn't any backup for them, the communications. It

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Speaker 1: was an hour or two before other police came by.

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Speaker 1: You've got the other people in the situation. Someone's just

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Speaker 1: been shot and critical injuries and they're left there dealing

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Speaker 1: with that. I think Carter told me he wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: if the rest of the community were going to attack

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Speaker 1: him after the shot, and he thought that might be

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Speaker 1: so just a horrendous situation.

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Speaker 2: Very horrendous and very courageous of them. Yeah. Well, one

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Speaker 2: of the recommendations that came out of the inquest was

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Speaker 2: that they'd be awarded some sort of gallantry metal accommendation,

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Speaker 2: which I think they received later on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they did. Know. I've seen a lot of things

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Speaker 1: in policing, and that was one that was right up

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Speaker 1: there because they didn't have to stay. They could have

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Speaker 1: just driven out, but they were protecting the public in

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Speaker 1: classic what police should be doing, and putting their own

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Speaker 1: own situation at risk and doing that. There was in

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Speaker 1: all the darkness you do see some humor, and the

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Speaker 1: people that you would expected a gathering of the Moon

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Speaker 1: Festival or whatever on the School of Happiness Farm were

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Speaker 1: an eclectic group of people. There was one I can

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Speaker 1: say this, I don't think he'd take any offense. I

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Speaker 1: think he'd be proud of it. There was one particular

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Speaker 1: person that was a witness to this situation that he

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Speaker 1: didn't believe in wearing clothes. Clothes just weren't his scene.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think you realize, as the deputy state

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Speaker 1: coroner how much work we had to go do behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes to get that witness to appear in court

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Speaker 1: with some clothes on.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: We explained that, you know, it's probably a situation where

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Speaker 1: you should wear your clothes, but I don't believe in clothes. Man,

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Speaker 1: not my scene. I think we convinced him that we're

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Speaker 1: a pair of shorts and a singlet. That's as close

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Speaker 1: as we could get him. But he was itching because

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Speaker 1: he just didn't like clothes. And I think there was

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Speaker 1: another witness. I don't think it was that one that

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Speaker 1: when he was being sworn in, and I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: this verbatim, but it was pretty much along the lines

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Speaker 1: of what is your what could you please tell us

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Speaker 1: your name? I don't have a name, I'm an entity,

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Speaker 1: and then produced a piece of paper from his pocket

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Speaker 1: and produced that. And you handle it very well as

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Speaker 1: a coroner.

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Speaker 2: I knew I was dealing with some interesting characters.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well, and the hippie bus. We had to find

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Speaker 1: a place that he could park the hippie bus that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be stolen. There was all sorts of behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes work that you just don't understand on that and

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Speaker 1: we're laughing about as a tragic situation. But something that

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Speaker 1: when we talk about the emotion of a matter like

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Speaker 1: that is Ryan's father acknowledging the police, not blaming the police.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that was that was a really moving

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Speaker 1: moving part.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was very gracious and very stoical.

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Speaker 2: Clearly quite a well known person because he was a

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Speaker 2: well known footballer and it must have been a tremendous

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Speaker 2: blow to him to lose his son, but also some

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Speaker 2: degree of humiliation, I think, Yet he was. I thought

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Speaker 2: it was quite noble, really he was.

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Speaker 1: I stayed in contact with him and had a few

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Speaker 1: communications with him, and he was very pragmatic about it.

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Speaker 1: He was suffering from the loss of his son, but

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Speaker 1: he understood the situation that it was probably inevitable what

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Speaker 1: that was going to be the end result with how

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Speaker 1: his son's actions were. But yeah, it was a strange one,

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Speaker 1: but they're the type of things and I want to

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Speaker 1: speak to about critical incidents because people don't fully understand

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Speaker 1: the role of the coroner in a critical incident. Critical incidence,

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Speaker 1: when we refer to that in policing, is where during

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Speaker 1: the police operation someone's lost their life, and that might

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Speaker 1: be a police shooting or a car chase. Critical incidents

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Speaker 1: are set up as a homicide detective. If someone's been

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Speaker 1: shot by police, there'll be a homicide inspector heading up

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Speaker 1: the investigation. Then we have to present the matter to

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Speaker 1: the coroner. There are always cantentious issues. What's your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on the way critical incidence are handled well?

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Speaker 2: One large I thought they were handled pretty well. One

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Speaker 2: of the classic criticisms of it is that New South

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Speaker 2: Bale's police are investigating New South Bal's police. In some

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Speaker 2: other jurisdictions you have police from other you say, police

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Speaker 2: forces or whatever. I think ideally would have independent another

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Speaker 2: independent police force doing them. But coroners are meant to

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Speaker 2: be the people who provide the independent oversight and providing

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Speaker 2: and I think it in practice does work pretty well

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Speaker 2: because coroners are also assisted by people from the Crown

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Speaker 2: Solicitor's Office, and then there's in police cases as usually

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Speaker 2: a barrister from the independent bar very often a silk

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Speaker 2: who is independent. They have an ethos of independence, and

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Speaker 2: some of the council assistant I've worked with have been

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Speaker 2: really quite rigorous in demanding from the police investigators that

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Speaker 2: they do various things, or investigate various questions, or make

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Speaker 2: various inquiries. So I think in practice that works pretty well.

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Speaker 2: But that said, there are people who, no matter how

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Speaker 2: well it actually works in practice, are suspicious because it

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Speaker 2: is New South Bale's police carrying out the critical incident investigation.

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Speaker 2: I know in the parliamentary inquiries in New South Bale's coroners,

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Speaker 2: I think it was the Jumbunner Institute, which is an

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Speaker 2: institute at University of Technology. It's an indigenous research group

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Speaker 2: made a submission that coroners were captured by police. And

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Speaker 2: there's a concept of regulatory capture that the pop you're regulating,

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Speaker 2: the regulators are regulating, capture the inspectors or the regulators.

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Speaker 2: So the argument was, unless you had an independent police

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Speaker 2: force doing the investigations on behalf of coroners, that the

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Speaker 2: New South Wales Police Force would basically possibly potentially capture

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Speaker 2: the coroners. And so that you know the police and

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Speaker 2: the coroners would think alike, that's psychologically possible, but where

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Speaker 2: do you get the independent investigators.

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Speaker 1: That's I've got a got thoughts on critical incidence because

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Speaker 1: a large part of my career is spent tied up

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Speaker 1: on critical incidence, and I could be in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a murder investigation, a critical incident would occur and

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Speaker 1: that got priority. My frustration was the amount of time

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Speaker 1: I was spending on critical incidents when I'm in the

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Speaker 1: throes of a homicide investigation. But that's just from a

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Speaker 1: resourcing point of view. I think a perception is the

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Speaker 1: most difficult thing to overcome. The families and many a

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Speaker 1: time I've introduced myself to the families as I'm the

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Speaker 1: person ever seeing the investigation into the death of your

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Speaker 1: loved one, and the initial response police investigating a police

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Speaker 1: because there's anger and we're making the introductions fairly early.

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Speaker 1: There was always anger and a lack of trust. And

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Speaker 1: I've got to say, in defense of the police or

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Speaker 1: my observations of the critical incidence that I've been involved in,

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Speaker 1: whether I'm leading it or working on it, there is

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Speaker 1: a degree of independence where that's why they bring the

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Speaker 1: homicide in and part of the process. For someone on

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Speaker 1: the critical incident, you're not allowed to know the police

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Speaker 1: or not to have a connection with the police involved

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Speaker 1: in the incident, and that would discard you from the investigation.

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Speaker 1: So I think there is a degree of independence, but

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Speaker 1: I think everyone would be better off if we did

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Speaker 1: have someone else to investigate it. And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of oversight that goes into place. We have professional standards

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Speaker 1: overside in the work that homicide are doing. Is independent

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Speaker 1: officers just a thought I always and I tried to

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Speaker 1: sell this when I was in the cops. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to sell it now,

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Speaker 1: but let me try one more time. You need the

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Speaker 1: skills to investigate the death of a human. Homicide detectives

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Speaker 1: have got those skills. I always thought the way a

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Speaker 1: critical incident could be run is that homicide get called

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Speaker 1: out for the first forty eight hours and make sure

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Speaker 1: the crime scene is preserved, witnesses, identified, lines of inquiry,

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Speaker 1: all the things set the investigation up. Then you could

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Speaker 1: bring in other people independent to come in and complete

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Speaker 1: the investigation. So homicide are basically just setting the investigation

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Speaker 1: up in a direction, and then that independent body because

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Speaker 1: you can't have in the state police coming in because

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Speaker 1: it takes too long for them to get to the scene.

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Speaker 1: So you've got to have people be able to respond.

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Speaker 1: Homicide is set up to respond twenty four to seven

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Speaker 1: at short short notice homicide there and then perhaps police

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Speaker 1: from interstate or a different the investigative body because you've

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Speaker 1: seen it. I know you've seen it. We've been speaking

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Speaker 1: to people that have that view. They won't be satisfied

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Speaker 1: that police are investigating investigating police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, and I think that's hard on the

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Speaker 2: people who the police officers who do a really thorough

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Speaker 2: investigation fair number of critical incident in quests, and only

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Speaker 2: on a couple of occasions was I a bit doubtful

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Speaker 2: about or did I have any doubts really about the

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Speaker 2: quality of the investigation or the initial quality. And by

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Speaker 2: and large those problems will solved because I would have

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Speaker 2: a confidence with my counsel assistant and solicitor and we'd say, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: detective so and so it doesn't seem to be thinking

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Speaker 2: about this or that, or maybe you know, hasn't hasn't

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Speaker 2: explored this issue or something, and then we would and

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Speaker 2: under the coroners Act. You can actually direct police to

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Speaker 2: do various things. Don't like, you know, pulling rank in

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Speaker 2: that way if you get cooperation. But if you need to,

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Speaker 2: you can do that. I prefer to say it as

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Speaker 2: a as a partnership. But a couple of times, in

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Speaker 2: a couple of cases anyway, council assisting said to me,

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Speaker 2: I don't you know, I think we need to get

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Speaker 2: the whip out and give me a bit of a

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Speaker 2: tickle up or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it hurts that there's a safeguard if

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Speaker 1: something's missed now, whether it's through laziness and competence.

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Speaker 2: Or just usually busy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that was that. Yeah, I started off talking

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Speaker 1: about it. My gripe was I've just been in a

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Speaker 1: homicide of a critical incident that was priority because higher

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Speaker 1: up the police realize that there's going to be criticisms,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to say, well, we've got the people

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Speaker 1: with the appropriate skills investigating when the death has occurred

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Speaker 1: mental health factors that come into police students, because time

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Speaker 1: and time again I saw that. Have you got any

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Speaker 1: thoughts on that? I know on the back of the

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Speaker 1: Courtney topic inquest, there was a lot of recommendations about

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Speaker 1: police training for mental health.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've actually participated a couple of times with LEASA

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Speaker 2: topic Courtney's mum in talking to police about all of

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Speaker 2: those scenarios. Incredibly difficult. Ideally, what you'd always have if

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Speaker 2: someone is psychotic in some way, you'd have a mental

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Speaker 2: health team who possibly would be escorted by police, but

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Speaker 2: the mental health team would be the first responders rather

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Speaker 2: than police, I think. I mean, it's very very difficult,

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Speaker 2: isn't it, when police, who are very often very young,

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Speaker 2: are the first responders to people acting dangerously to themselves

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Speaker 2: or others. And I've seen this happen. I've seen police

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Speaker 2: training where you know, people have shown how to back

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Speaker 2: off and various techniques for trying to talk people down

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Speaker 2: or keep them corraled in a safe space. But sometimes

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Speaker 2: you run out of space, and then it's and then

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Speaker 2: it can be a question of basically self defense. And

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Speaker 2: I know, well, certainly I've done cases where police have

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Speaker 2: shot people just too I think, and they were certainly

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Speaker 2: in self defense, but they're shattering for everybody afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Well, I haven't seen a police offer so that it's

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Speaker 1: been involved in a shooting incident, hasn't been affected. It's

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Speaker 1: as much bravado that can come up after shooting incident

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Speaker 1: and police know I'm fine. It does have an impact.

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Speaker 1: There is consequences.

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Speaker 2: There are consequences, and I think you know, everybody knows,

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Speaker 2: everybody who's involved in these things knows that was another

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Speaker 2: human being, yeah, just like me. And they've got a family,

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Speaker 2: and they see the family at the inquest. Personally, I'd

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Speaker 2: like to see lawyers who represent police officers and the

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Speaker 2: Police Association try to persuade cops who involve police that

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Speaker 2: turning and facing the family and apologizing yeah, might be

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Speaker 2: a good thing for their own mental health.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that I'm not going to talk specifics. Well,

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Speaker 1: I've seen cases like that. It's almost if you talk.

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Speaker 1: There is that little bit of adversarial in the inquest

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Speaker 1: and a critical incident, and I see police react like

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Speaker 1: they want to just break down and cry with the family,

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Speaker 1: and it would be benef official for everyone involved, But

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Speaker 1: there's a sort of a stoic front that no, we're fine,

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Speaker 1: we're just doing our job. And I've heard police in

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Speaker 1: the witness box saying, look, I ran an operation where

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Speaker 1: someone was shot and killed, and I acknowledged that, and

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Speaker 1: I was being cross examined about well, it was a success,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it, And I've said, no, it couldn't be further

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Speaker 1: from the success. I'm devastated by it. That was my

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Speaker 1: true belief. But I've seen police that I think anyone

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Speaker 1: would be of that view stand there and try to

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Speaker 1: put on the brave front. No, they got what they deserved.

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Speaker 1: My life felt threatened, and it just aggravates a family

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Speaker 1: traumatized as a family, and I'm sure it traumatizes the police.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and I think sorry, I think it is

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Speaker 1: part of the legal advice. Don't don't concede anything here,

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Speaker 1: and you did the right thing, but you can show

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Speaker 1: emotion and still do the right thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if you did have to act in

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Speaker 2: self defense, and in most of those cases that's exactly

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Speaker 2: what happens, you can say, yeah, but I really regret

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Speaker 2: doing this, and I can see how affected you are.

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Speaker 2: Kirsten Edwards said, I'm sure you've come across an in quest.

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Speaker 2: Very very good barrister who I think has sometimes represented

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Speaker 2: police in in quests told me about a case in

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Speaker 2: which she had seen a young cop break down in

400
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Speaker 2: tears and say something to the effect that to the family.

401
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Speaker 2: I think about your son every day of my life,

402
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Speaker 2: and if I could go back and prevent this happening,

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Speaker 2: That's what I'd love to do. And the family, the

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Speaker 2: family I think probably wanted to see his pain, not

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Speaker 2: just feel it themselves. And having and Kirsten Tommy that

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Speaker 2: having seen him breakdown like that, they were much more

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Speaker 2: willing to accept what had happened, to forgive him and

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Speaker 2: to see him as a fellow human being. And if

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Speaker 2: we can see one another as fellow human beings instead

410
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Speaker 2: of them and us always you know, you're the other,

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Speaker 2: I'm the strong one, I was just doing my duty

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Speaker 2: or whatever. I think we go a long way to

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Speaker 2: making these increase a very traumatic for everybody, but we

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Speaker 2: would do a great deal to reduce the trauma that

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Speaker 2: they cause to people, families, police, correctional officers, whoever. If

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Speaker 2: we could show that, if witnesses could show that they

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Speaker 2: they are her to I think it would be really

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Speaker 2: good if we could get inquests on more quickly, because

419
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Speaker 2: I think the longer that the time lass. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it does. And people not only come up with their

421
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Speaker 2: own theories of how this death came about, which can

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Speaker 2: be can be right, but very often wrong. That can

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Speaker 2: be very difficult for people's mental health as well. But

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Speaker 2: I think I think there is a I think in

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Speaker 2: grieving psychologically, there's a sort of a sweet spot. You

426
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Speaker 2: need some time to get over the initial impact and

427
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Speaker 2: then you can think about what actually happened, and if

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Speaker 2: you if you can hear from the people who were

429
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Speaker 2: involved what happened at that moment. In that sweet spot,

430
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Speaker 2: then I think you are more likely as a as

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Speaker 2: a fan only of someone who's died, or as someone

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Speaker 2: who was involved in the incident, the fatal incident, maybe

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Speaker 2: even the person who caused the death, I think you're

434
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: more likely to come up with some chance of healing

435
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: in maybe not immediately, but over time.

436
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Well, what you're saying there are words of wisdom, and

437
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: I suppose that comes from seeing the emotions as rule

438
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: as it is for as long as you did in

439
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: the environment. It's confronting. But what you talk about, I

440
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: think we could encapsulate that in the word of just

441
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: bring some humanity to it.

442
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: And I mean, I'd like to think that the Police

443
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: Association and the Public Service Association and those sort of

444
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: people with the unions would say the benefit of this too,

445
00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: because sometimes I think thinking legalistically is not necessarily the

446
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: best way to think about these things.

447
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's exactly how it's approached from the police

448
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: point of view, and there's so many more layers to

449
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: it than just from a legalistic point of view. Another

450
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: thing that sounds counterintuitive when I say this, but mental health.

451
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: And we talked about how that could be navigated if

452
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: there was someone there with the expertise when police respond

453
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: to those type of jobs. But I'm concerned. I'm saying

454
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: this now as a former police officer, but seeing what's

455
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: gone on the lack of training, tactical training. Now we're

456
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: trying to reduce police shootings. Tactical training is not just

457
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: pulling out a gun and shooting someone. It's been comfortable

458
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: in the environment, knowing how to handle yourself, knowing how

459
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: to de escalate confronting situations. Police are entitled to use

460
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: their firearm if they fear for their life. If we

461
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: could train people, train police with more training. Now I'm

462
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: not sure I've been out for years now, but the

463
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: amount of training days, tactical training days we do, I

464
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: think it's one a year, like you have a shoot

465
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: once a year. Now, I was involved in tactical policing

466
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: where we had to shoot the minimum once a month,

467
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: and it was just so it became repetitive. You felt

468
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: comfortable with your weapon from when I joined the police.

469
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: And now what the young police are carrying these days,

470
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: with the tasers, the OC spray, of the expandable battern,

471
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: and they've got so many other things. It's complicated in

472
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: a time of stress, how they're going to react. I

473
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: just think we need to and I know there's a

474
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: cost associated with training police, but we need to dedicate

475
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: more time to training.

476
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that doesn't surprise me you say that, because

477
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 2: almost always in these inquests, the question of tactics comes up,

478
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: doesn't it. And you often find that when you boil

479
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: it down, some of these deaths are ventable and they

480
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: could have been prevented had better tactics being employed. So

481
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: you know, there's training days that I've been up to

482
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: see how participate in with lesser topic. Police have shown

483
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: videos of how to retreat from a dangerous situation, et cetera,

484
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: et cetera, But how well does that actually work in practice?

485
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: And I quite often think about a particular case, this

486
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: is ut in Western News, South Bales I won't use

487
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: the man's name because he was an Aboriginal man, but

488
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: he was shot and killed by police or a police officer.

489
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: The police officer was acting in self defense because the

490
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: Aboriginal man had attacked him with a club block. But

491
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: there'd been an earlier incident. The police were looking for

492
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: this man and they suspected he was in a house.

493
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: And I sometimes wondered how good a job I did

494
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: as a coroner, because although I had a very good

495
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: counsel assisting, one of the questions that I later thought

496
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: about was the tactical issue. The police entered the house

497
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: thinking he may be inside. They entered the room and

498
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: this man was in there, and the officer pulled out

499
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: his taser and tasered the man that had, as far

500
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: as you could see, no effect on you except to

501
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: mak him even angry. He had this club like instead

502
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: of whacking the officer around the head and shoulders, and

503
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: the officer managed to get his gun out and went

504
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: bang bang. Now had the police what I now think

505
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: is and had we asked for more expertise on tactics,

506
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, could the police have tactically secured that house

507
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: better discovered whether or not the man was in the

508
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: house before they actually entered the room he was in.

509
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, but I kicked

510
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: myself quite regularly when I think about this, for not

511
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 2: having at the time raised the question. In the end,

512
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: we walked away. I'm sorry, you know, terribly sorry. The

513
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 2: man's father was there. There was a group of Aboriginal

514
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: people who were very angry, you know, and they saw

515
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: it as just another day in the colony, I guess

516
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: something like that. They could not accept that this death

517
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: had come about through any thought of anyone except the police.

518
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: And I thought, if I now think, if I'd done

519
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: a better in quest, it may have made absolutely no

520
00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: difference to the community, the Aboriginal community. We would have

521
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: got a better answer, I think, and we might have

522
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: been able to we might have come up with the

523
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: recommendation that would have made this sort of situation safer

524
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: in future.

525
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: Well, there was a police shooting and going back a

526
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: very long time ago where tactically it became more contained

527
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: than negotiat rather than going in with the tactical teams

528
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: the active shooter scenarios. Now that's had to be adapted

529
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: for current times and the threats. But yeah, I don't

530
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 1: think you can get enough training in that type of

531
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: the type of situation, and you are reacting in what

532
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: could be the most stressful situation that you've you've encountered,

533
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: and you need to be able to think clearly, and

534
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: that only comes through with training. I think it's something may.

535
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: Only happen once in your life. Yes, please, I've said,

536
00:35:54,320 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 2: but if you can't react instinctively, instinctively in the most

537
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: appropriate way, can I tell This reminds me of a

538
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: case that amused me. Actually it didn't, it didn't have

539
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: a terrible ending. And that happened while I was a magistrate.

540
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: To police go to go to the door of the house,

541
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: the knock on the door, they said, please, please, you

542
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: open the door. Anyway, they opened the door and a

543
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: guy comes rushing down the hallway waving a samurai sword

544
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: and the police officer, I was a magistrate, not a

545
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: coroner at that stage. That the guy was charged with

546
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: dangerous weapon or something like that. Anyway, the police. What

547
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: amused me was this police have a funny way of

548
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: writing statements. So and one of the ways they write statements,

549
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: so that must be taught this in the academy. Is

550
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: you don't say. I said, blah blah, you say. I said,

551
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 2: words to the effect of and this police office. I

552
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: said something like I saw a man running down the

553
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: hallway waving a samurai saw it. I said, where's the

554
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: effect of fuck retreated? I said, words the effect of

555
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: police Please, we're under arrest. He said, fuck off.

556
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: I've seen statements statements like that. But yeah, there's training

557
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: and something stick. But yeah, I see the funny side

558
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: of that. I want no names, no pack drills. But

559
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: I went back as a crime manager and there was

560
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: a young officer and just needed educating, and she was

561
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: trying to do things properly. She's given a statement, and

562
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: I had to go through the briefs of evidence and

563
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: look at the brief of evidence, and someone brought that

564
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: to my attention that hey, boss, can you have a

565
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: look at this evidence of all this brief I've got

566
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: some concerns, and basically she's gone. I think it was

567
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: a domestic situation a I don't say domestics minor, but

568
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: it was a rather minor thing. And she's communicating in

569
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: a level that people would understand. She's going, well, this

570
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: is the police officer. So I said, what the fuck

571
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: is going on here, and she said, nothing, you bitch.

572
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: Don't you call me a bitch, You're the bitch, and

573
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: like that, like that, And so I got her in

574
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: to my office and I said, look this statement. I said,

575
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit worried about the wording here. And

576
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: she said, we were told in that we've got to

577
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: say exactly what was said. And one hundred percent I agree,

578
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: it's got to be a true account of the conversation.

579
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: And so I decided to approach it a different way.

580
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: Maybe as a police officer, we shouldn't swear so much,

581
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: like you that's what said on this occasion, But maybe

582
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: next time you're speak to a member of the public,

583
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: don't throw in so many swear words. But yeah, it's

584
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 1: all a learning process, isn't It is a learning process,

585
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: And I feel, you know, I look back at the

586
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: mistakes I made in the cops when I just got

587
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: in and yeah, I don't know how I got through

588
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: it half the time.

589
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: Well, fortunately, coroner's mistakes don't end up with anybody getting

590
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:08,959
Speaker 2: hurt or yeah.

591
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the thing. So we've covered off on

592
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 1: like critical incidence, and that was a a lot of

593
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 1: my time in coroner's courts were put through overseeing critical

594
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: incidence other cases that you've been involved in the death

595
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: of fourteen people at Quakers Hill nursing home fire. That

596
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: was a horrendous situation. Do you want to tell us

597
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: what your involvement overseeing that inquest? Because it was a

598
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: person I think he's Roger Dean was convicted of eleven

599
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: counts of murder.

600
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: That's right.

601
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: So this situation has happened, the fires were lit, the

602
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: people at the nursing home were killed. Homicide have investigated,

603
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: he's been charged, he's been convicted. What role did you

604
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: have as a coroner in that situation?

605
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: Well, Conner has always had have a role to look

606
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: at homicide cases and these were obviously this is a

607
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: mass murder. But the reason we could have decided not

608
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 2: to do an inquest, this came after the murder proceedings

609
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: were over. The reason we decided to do it was

610
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: for a couple of reasons. One was, was there anything

611
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: that we could look at about the management of the

612
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: nursing home in relation to use of drugs or security

613
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: of drugs because Roger Dean was doctor shopping. He has

614
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: drug affected and the reason he started the fire was

615
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: to prevent the management of the nursing home finding out

616
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: about his stealing of drugs schedulate drugs. So he wanted

617
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: to cover up his tracks, and he was reckless. He

618
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: didn't particularly want to kill people, but he wanted to

619
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: cover up his own wrongdoing, so he set these two

620
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,479
Speaker 2: fires and then he ran away turned up later while

621
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: the fire was being fought. Were also interested in the

622
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: response of the fire brigade of how the people were

623
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: evacuated from the nursing home, whether there were any lessons

624
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: to be learned about the particular fire, how it's been

625
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: responded to, the building codes, the actual fire hydrants, and

626
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: those sort of things, because there had been some difficulties

627
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: with various aspects of connecting the fire appliances to the

628
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 2: water supply and so on and so forth. So I've

629
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: forgotten how many recommendations we came up out of that.

630
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: It was a significant number. And one of the main

631
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: things that in the end we didn't have to recommend

632
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: because it came out of the case was a change

633
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 2: of the building code to require that sprinklers be installed

634
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: in all nursing homes, because sprinklers can reduce the ambient

635
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: temperature in a very hot fire enough to save lives.

636
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: These sort of fires can get up to incredible temperatures,

637
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, six hundred degrees one thousand degrees centigrade because

638
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: they're burning lots and lots of petrochemical materials. Sprinklers can

639
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: bring it down to a couple of one hundred degrees,

640
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: at which point people can be rescued, you know.

641
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's what It's not just saving the building.

642
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 2: It's saving the people is the main thing. The building

643
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 2: could be, but the people could be saying, yeah, yeah, do.

644
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: Those recommendations that get followed up where they follow up.

645
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 2: And they were most of them were. The fire was

646
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: far and rescue are really good at following up recommendations

647
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: and in fact, they make a really good contribution to

648
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 2: framing recommendations for coroners.

649
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, it's important, like the magnitude of yeah, an offense

650
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: where it's taken for their lives. It was horrendous that situation.

651
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: Some of the strange deaths you've seen, and we're not

652
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: making light of light of death. Every death, you know,

653
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: carries a weight and the impact. But what are some

654
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: of the things that you just wouldn't anticipate that's left

655
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: and the lasting impression on you.

656
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: Well, one was, and this was very early on in

657
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: my time as a coroner. An elderly man was walking

658
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: his dog outside Royal and So for hospital, and somehow

659
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: he got tangled up with the dog, I think, in

660
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: the lead, and he tripped over and he broke his

661
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 2: fema and he ended up in hospital. Unfortunately, he died

662
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: of pneumonia, and because it had an accident, his death

663
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: was reportable to their coroners. Well, I became hyper vigilant

664
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: after that when I was working my dog and walking

665
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: my dog, and if anyone came near me with the dog,

666
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: I was very, very cautious of it. I became less

667
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: hypervigilant and more fatalistic. I guess after about a year

668
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: or so.

669
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: But you and people stopped reporting this strange man telling

670
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: the careful when they're walking their dogs.

671
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so I think I became less strange over time.

672
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: I can imagine like things like that that you just

673
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: never anticipated and okay, it sort of sticks with you

674
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: for whatever reason.

675
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are others, but I think I prefer not

676
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: to describe them.

677
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. You explain in part one why you

678
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: left left as a coroner, and it wasn't by choice,

679
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: It was just your time to leave as a coroner. Yeah,

680
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,479
Speaker 1: since you've left the coroner's court, clearly you haven't. It's

681
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: like me, I've left homicide and I'm hosting a podcast

682
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: called thy Catch Killers. You have left the coroner's court

683
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 1: and you're doing a PhD as cornial matters.

684
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: That's right. So, even when I was working at the

685
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: coroner's Court, I really felt that the system could be

686
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 2: designed and structured and resourced a lot better than it was.

687
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: We used to be quite proud of ourselves, you know,

688
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: proud of the individual work that we did and so

689
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: on and so forth, but most of us didn't have

690
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 2: the opportunity to think much about how the system worked

691
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: as a system. And as I was saying right at

692
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: the beginning of the podcast, Gary, it's a multidisciplinary system.

693
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 2: It's not just coroners. It's not just coroners telling police

694
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: to do that or forensic pathologists to do this. It's

695
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: a group of people all trying to investigate deaths in

696
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: the hope of either finding lessons or at least giving

697
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: people answers. And I don't think we do it especially

698
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: well in New South Wales. The system we have was

699
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: it's really more or less the same, except on a

700
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: larger scale than it was in the early nineteen hundreds

701
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 2: when the magistrates took it over. It's still run by

702
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: the magistrates. We have better systems in Australia. There are

703
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: better systems overseas.

704
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: I've heard you say that you rate Victoria as one

705
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: of the best. Yeah, what is it about Victoria that

706
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: sets on the side.

707
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 2: Well, Victoria, Well, a few things. First of all, it

708
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: was built around a concept or two concepts really, the

709
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: two concepts being one care for families. So everything that

710
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: coroners do and the coronial system does in Victoria has

711
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 2: to take into account the effect on families and their distress. Secondly,

712
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: it was all about the second thing is the second

713
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 2: pillar is prevention of future deaths. And in two thousand

714
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 2: and eight the Victorian system was reformed from top to bottom. Well,

715
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 2: for many years that had the idea of trying to

716
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 2: make it more effective at preventing future deaths and injuries,

717
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 2: but the system itself was pretty ordinary, and in fact

718
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: they had a parliamentary inquiry in two thousand and six

719
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: which flowed from complaints being made by families about how

720
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: slow it was, how inefficient it was, et cetera, et cetera.

721
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: We have exactly the same sort of system as the

722
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 2: Victorians had pre two thousand and eight. It's not efficient.

723
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: The people who work in it are really good people,

724
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: but they're not resourced well. The system isn't structured or

725
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: designed to be effective or as effective as it could

726
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: or should be. It's not very good at preventing future deaths.

727
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 2: We only hold one hundred inquests a year, and the

728
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: only way coroners in Byales have any illegal right to

729
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: make recommendations to prevent future deaths is if you hold

730
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: an inquest. Well, if you don't hold an inquest, there

731
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: are no lessons disseminated to the community. There's a lot

732
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 2: of data collected and that's sent to a national database

733
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: in Victoria called the National Coronial Information System, but that's

734
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: mainly used by university researchers, not so much by coroners,

735
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: whereas it was set up to help make coroners work

736
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: really effectively. The Victorians have an in house research group.

737
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: Ontario has an in house research group. I think Nova Scotia.

738
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: No, okay, this is from all your overseas study.

739
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: But in New Zealand's looking at it so News up

740
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: Wales has had two parliamentary inquiries in the last three

741
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 2: years or four years which have recommended radical reform. And

742
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: basically the reforms being recommended are we set up a

743
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: specialist court, well resourced with in house researchers, whose job

744
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: would be to try to come up well first of all,

745
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: identify patterns of patterns and trends of fatalities, which could

746
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 2: then be fed to public health and safety authorities to

747
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 2: try to save lives. And I explained before not only

748
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 2: is there an enormous, an incalculable human cost to sudden

749
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: and unnatural and unexplained deaths, but there is also an

750
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: economic cost. If we could if we could make the

751
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 2: coronial system in news up Bales even slightly more effective,

752
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: we could save some lives and the money saved the

753
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: economic savings would pay for a new system. The News

754
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: Out Bail system costs around about eleven million or twelve

755
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: million dollars a year. The Victorian system costs around about

756
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 2: twenty seven million dollars a year. That's its compared with

757
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 2: what we spend on health, police, public safety. Generally, you

758
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 2: can have a much much better system for not very

759
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 2: much more money.

760
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: It does seem like peanuts on the scale. It is

761
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: peanuts because a constant complaint I've had dealing with victims

762
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 1: families is the length of time before the matter becomes

763
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: and they're hanging there almost in a state of suspense,

764
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: waiting for this matter. And exactly if I'm saying in contact,

765
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: all the inquests that set down for next year, it

766
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 1: was going to be this year, but it's been put

767
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: off for this reason or that reason that needs resourcing,

768
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: like we need to be able to get the turnover

769
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: done quicker, would you?

770
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree. I did some research recently for an

771
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 2: article I wrote. I looked at all the published coronial

772
00:51:54,360 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: findings for twenty three and twenty twenty four. My PhD

773
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 2: about forty percent of inquests took more than three years.

774
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: It's now it's over fifty five percent.

775
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: Now how that break break those figures down? Fifty five?

776
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 2: Fifty five percent of inquests take more than.

777
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: Three years to get finalized.

778
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: To get finalized, and more than forty percent take more

779
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: than five years. Imagine having to wait that long. I

780
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 2: have a barrister's practicing certificate now and I'm representing a

781
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 2: man whose mother died in Orange hospital in twenty twenty

782
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: one and we still haven't got a date for an inquest.

783
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 2: Were nowhere near.

784
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: And he is that because of the availability of a

785
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: coroner and availability of the court.

786
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 2: Well, it's for all sorts of reasons, the investigations taking

787
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 2: a long time, or all sorts of reasons, but there

788
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: is a tremendous need not just for more resources, but

789
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: for a better way of coordinating these various arms of

790
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 2: the system. Michael Barnes, a former state coroner, at the

791
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: parliamentary inquiry in twenty twenty one, gave evidence and he

792
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: said words the effect of this system is so uncoordinated

793
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 2: that it really is a bit of a joke to

794
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: call it a system at all.

795
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: Pretty DAMMI. And this is Michael Barnes who came down

796
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: from Queensland.

797
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 2: Michael Barnes who came down from Queensland, who's now the

798
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: new South Wales Crimes Crossia. Michael. Michael really knows all

799
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 2: about coroners and coronial systems. He has seen most of

800
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: them around Australia. He's provided advice to many of Australian

801
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 2: and I think New Zealand coronial systems and other places.

802
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: So Michael is one of the Australia's leading experts. He

803
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 2: knows when he says the system not working, well.

804
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: Well we've got to get we have got to get

805
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: it better. Haven't we like it? So I know the

806
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 1: trauma that causes families with delays.

807
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: Look, I believe the Attorney General has his heart in

808
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: the right place. And the problem, of course, as it

809
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: always is, is resources and that means government money, and

810
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 2: that means priority. There is always enough money. The question

811
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: is where does this idea, this concept of a really

812
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: good colonial system sit in the order of priorities. And

813
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: it doesn't sit, in my opinion high enough. It's time

814
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 2: it was improved and radically overhauled.

815
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: There's six things and this is in the article that

816
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: you're the author of. So I suspect you'll agree with

817
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: the things. Six things that need to be done to

818
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: build a modern coronnial system for New South Wales. If

819
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 1: I could just reimprovement, then we can discuss if you

820
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: want to one define the philosophy and purpose of the

821
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: coeronnial system in terms of respect and care for families

822
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: and prevention of death. I think we've already spoken about

823
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: that that was what the whole philosophy. What's it there for.

824
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: To show recognition and respect?

825
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: I believe, okay. Point number two rewrite the Coroners Act.

826
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Coroner's Act is out of date. It's just

827
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 2: a Victoria. New Zealand. Other places have much better acts.

828
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: It's so obvious a thing to.

829
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: Do, okay, So, and that's just making it more contemporary.

830
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: The things that need to be changed work better. O

831
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: Number three. Create a specialist Coroner's Court to conduct all

832
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: coeronnial inquiries and coordinate the multidisciplinary system.

833
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, at the moment, cases that occur in the

834
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 2: country are reported to LIDCOLN with the specialist coroners work

835
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: Someone has a look at the case and then it's sent.

836
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 2: In most cases, it's sent back to the country magistrates.

837
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: The country magistrates are not specialist coroners. They don't have

838
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: the resources, they don't have the training, and they don't

839
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: have the experience, and yet they're asked, on top of

840
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: their very busy criminal and civil loads, to look after

841
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: forty five percent of the state's coronial workload. It's ridiculous.

842
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: Victoria got rid of it years ago. New Zealand got

843
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: rid of it even earlier. Every single Australian state and

844
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: territory now confines coronial matters the coronial jurisdiction to people

845
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: who are specialists in that jurisdiction.

846
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: Well, I got to say, you've seen here listening to

847
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: your talk and seeing how you went about your business,

848
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: and the coroners that I've appeared before, the experienced coroners,

849
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: You've got so much I call the wisdom but understanding

850
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: of what's needed in the coroner's court from the experience

851
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: that you've got. So it makes a lot of sense.

852
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 1: Point number four. Focus the system on prevention of death

853
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: by developing in house research capacity and connecting with other

854
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: public health research institutions.

855
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is what I'm talking about with Victoria. Victoria

856
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: transformed coronial practice really and everyone around the world involved

857
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 2: in the niche world of coroners knows this. Victoria led

858
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 2: the way. It's got some of the leading thinkers about

859
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: coronial practice. In Freckleton is probably the leading thinker in

860
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 2: the world is a Victorian barrister. David Rampton is a

861
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 2: Victorian forensic pathologist, and they are two of the leading

862
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: thinkers in in the world on this and both of

863
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: them have the concept of coigners as public health and

864
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: safety officials, and that means trying to prevent future debts,

865
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 2: looking at what the data are telling you. Instead of

866
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 2: taking samples of one one case or cases one at

867
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 2: a time and think, oh, yeah, I've got the answer

868
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 2: for that, why don't we look at cases and group

869
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: them together and look at what patterns and trends are

870
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: telling us, and then say, what lessons do we learn

871
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 2: from this? How do we stop this pattern or trend recurring?

872
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 2: And that's why I'm saying that the excuse of governments

873
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 2: always is we can't afford it. But if you invested

874
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 2: in research like that, or linked up as partners with

875
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 2: University of researchers to do this kind of research, the

876
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: savings would be so honestly incalculable.

877
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: You're countering any arguments about what we need the funding.

878
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,439
Speaker 1: You're saying, well, look at the model we're talking about.

879
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: It would be fiscally responsible.

880
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 2: Do they And I've been talking to the news Outdal's

881
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: Health about this and they can see that the issue,

882
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 2: and I believe the Department of Community, Communities and Justice

883
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 2: does too. It may be that in the next couple

884
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 2: of years someone will say, oh, yes, it won't cost

885
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: very much and this is the bang for the buck

886
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: we'll get out of it. It would be a big

887
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 2: bang for not very many bucks.

888
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: Okay. Point number five. Expand the resources and streamline the

889
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: processes of the system to reduce delay. I think we've

890
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: already we've touched and discussed that, and I see the

891
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: trauma that causes family, so I think that's something that

892
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: needs to be done the delays.

893
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: Could I just so about that? But here's an obvious thing. Victoria,

894
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 2: almost the same number of deaths reported every year, has

895
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: fourteen specialist coroners. New South Wales at the moment has seven.

896
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 2: But I'm told that two of those coroners are going

897
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 2: back to the local court to work as general magistrates

898
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 2: in September. I hope that doesn't happen. I hope. But

899
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 2: even so we've only got seven.

900
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: The disparity disparity.

901
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 2: Queensland has ten and they have two thirds of the

902
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: workload of New South Wales New Zealand, but half the

903
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: workload of New South Wales has twenty six. So New

904
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 2: South Wales's government is doing coronial work on the cheap.

905
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: It's not saving the lives the number of lives it

906
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: could do if it invested in the system. It's putting

907
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 2: off the evil day.

908
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: It's it's the important thing too, isn't it about saving lives?

909
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 2: Ye professional lives, and it's all about carrying the families.

910
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: You know, if even if we held more in quests

911
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 2: and had more coroners, but you didn't hold them for

912
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 2: five years or three years, you might ask, what's the

913
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: point of holding it an inquest in four years time

914
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 2: if the impact by then will have dissipated. You need

915
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: to hold in quests within the first couple of years

916
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 2: after someone started. If you're going to learn the lesson

917
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: and have real impact, I think.

918
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: I think you're one hundred percent right point number six.

919
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: Minimize unnecessary extra trauma for family members by making inquest

920
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: processes more restorative and less adversarial.

921
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I don't think all in quests can be

922
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 2: non adversarial. But I in Ontario back in the nineties,

923
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: they had this idea of around table kind of a conference.

924
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with the restorative justice anyway.

925
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 2: Restorative justice means that people who have done something, who

926
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: have caused a harm, meet the people who have been harmed,

927
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: and I think we could have a very different kind

928
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: of coernial system if that became the one of the tools,

929
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 2: one of the methodologies where we brought people from hospitals

930
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: and families together, or from prisons and families together, or

931
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: police and families together, or whatever it may be. Accidents

932
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: people have caused accidents and families together, because as we've

933
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 2: explored in this conversation, very often it's not due to malice.

934
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 2: Most often it's not jueitimalice. You know, homicides are very

935
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 2: small proportion of all these deaths. It's mostly accidental or

936
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: something of that nature, or a mistake. If people are

937
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 2: willing to meet and open their hearts to one another,

938
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 2: that I think could be or could have, but not always,

939
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: but it could have in many cases a very restorative

940
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: healing effect. It's not closure, but it could enable people

941
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 2: to go on with their lives in a happier, less

942
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:32,919
Speaker 2: troubled way.

943
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big advocate for restorative justice. From what

944
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,479
Speaker 1: I've learned and seeing with people that come in here

945
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: and lessons that can be learned from it, I think

946
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: it's something that could be introduced into the cranial sphere.

947
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if I stay current, that'll be one of

948
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 2: the first things I do. Really, I really would.

949
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: And there's one more point. I think we're talking off

950
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: a camera that if there's how many cases are reported

951
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: to the coroner and New South Wales on average a

952
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: year six just.

953
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: A bit under eight thousand now and when I read that,

954
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 2: it was about six.

955
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: And six and a half from to three years ago,

956
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: so about eight thousand now. And we're saying we're talking

957
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: about the figures that equates to eighty thousand because of

958
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: there'd be ten people that's been impacted on by someone's death,

959
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: so and it might be twenty, it might be twenty,

960
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: so hundred and sixty thousand people. Look, it's something that

961
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: what we've talked about, the whole coronial process, it's very

962
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: close to my heart because I've seen the pain. I've

963
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: seen what's gone on and the work that happens. Ask

964
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: you a question coming to the end of the podcast.

965
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: Do you fear death in what you've seen like examining

966
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: I think as a homicide detective, I have a certain

967
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: view on death from what you've seen. What's your take

968
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: on death because you've seen it in more ways than

969
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: most people in their life.

970
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there are some ways I don't want to die,

971
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 2: but I'm not afraid of death as such. And one

972
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 2: of the reasons is early on in my time as

973
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: a coroner, it took me a while to go down

974
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 2: to the morgue and actually see how the forensic pathologists

975
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: and their teams examined the bodies of those who have died,

976
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 2: and it took away the fear of death itself from me.

977
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: People are very much at peace. They're not, you know,

978
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: whatever happened to them. They're no longer in pain. And

979
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: the other thing about working or getting to know the

980
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 2: people in the morgue was I got to know the

981
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: social workers who deal with the families, and I honestly

982
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 2: think they're saints. They were such good people and such

983
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 2: wise and behind people that I thought, you know, I

984
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 2: don't know if there's a life after death or not,

985
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 2: but at least in this place, those who are dead

986
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: are at peace, and those who are trying to help

987
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 2: their families are really good people. So it's not such

988
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 2: a bad way to go to end up in the morgue.

989
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm not afraid of my own death. I

990
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 2: really feel though, that we need to save lives. You know,

991
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 2: people we talked about what a good death is. I

992
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: would hope our society could ensure as many people as

993
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 2: possible have a good death, meaning a death, a peaceful death,

994
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 2: a death their families can accept reasonably peacefully. And I'd

995
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 2: say that about our common humanity. On Sunday there was

996
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 2: a march about Palestine. To me, many people down there,

997
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 2: Jews and Palestinians, Israelis and Palestinians. I think about those

998
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: people all the time.

999
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard not to think about when you see

1000
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: the stuff like we're seeing going on overseas. It's horrible.

1001
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: I heard I was at a university graduation and someone

1002
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: doing the talk there. It was palliative care doctor, and

1003
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: he just spoke and he'd had a lot of experience

1004
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: in palliative care. And a question was asked of him,

1005
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: what's the most frequent question that people ask you? What's

1006
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: a good death? And he said, to live a good life?

1007
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:40,959
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a nice way of looking

1008
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,479
Speaker 1: at it, like it's how do you define a good death? Well,

1009
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 1: maybe live a good life.

1010
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it. Three years ago I had

1011
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 2: a sort of near death experience and while I was

1012
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 2: waiting for the ambulance, thinking maybe this is it. That's

1013
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 2: exactly what I didn't feel. I've lived a good life.

1014
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 2: I felt i'd lived a lucky life, and I had

1015
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 2: been very lucky. You two beautiful kids, lovely partner. I've

1016
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 2: been lucky enough to do some work that's been really interesting,

1017
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 2: meet really good people, work with them, and so I thought,

1018
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 2: you know, if this is the end, I've been lucky.

1019
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 1: Were you thinking about whether you should have put in

1020
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: recommendation that ambulances should respond.

1021
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 2: I was watching that. I was watching the clock.

1022
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 1: Damn it, I should have made that recommendation strong.

1023
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 2: I was actually thinking of that.

1024
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 1: Ye.

1025
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,599
Speaker 2: Hello, how's this going well?

1026
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 1: I'm glad we haven't lost yet. Hugh, And thank you

1027
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the on the podcast, I've

1028
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: really enjoyed having a chat with you. But I just

1029
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 1: want to thank you for the work that you've done.

1030
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 1: And at the start of the introduction, I talk about

1031
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: it's there is that you're interested in? The passionate about

1032
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,639
Speaker 1: is something that I share and I think, whether it's

1033
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 1: a homicide detective or acurr. And then we see the

1034
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 1: pain that families go through where they lose loved ones

1035
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: and they have someone like you with genuine empathy, care

1036
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 1: and the smarts to get the strong message across. Congratulations

1037
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: and thank you for your efforts.

1038
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Garriot. It's been really interesting and a

1039
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 2: real pleasure for me to have a chat with you.

1040
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 2: It's been a long time. It has been very good

1041
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 2: to see you again.

1042
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: Yep, good stuff. All the best for the future, and

1043
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,839
Speaker 1: keep pushing, pushing the reform.

1044
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 2: Certainly, I'm going home to send a letter to somebody today.

1045
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 1: No, it's good and important work that you're doing and

1046
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people would thank you for it.

1047
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.