WEBVTT - The gas project threatening a world heritage site 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:09.719 Weber Lal Milba. You're listening to seven am. I'm Ruby Jones. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.280 We have all come here together and from far away 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:19.759 from the mura Yuga lands. When UNESCO voted to put 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.319 the Murajuga cultural landscape in Northwest Australia on the World 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.920 Heritage List, they recognized the ancient rock art as a 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:31.240 masterpiece of human creative genius. It was a reflection of 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.280 the work of the Muraduga traditional owners who fought for 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.920 the carvings to be recognized on the world stage two. 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.919 Or three decades ago. This journey started on a lot 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:42.040 of by our old people. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:44.240 They're not here today. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.040 This this is for them. And what I'd also like 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.599 to say just quickly, is that today we create our 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:53.479 own stories in the stone. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.360 But what went on behind the scenes shows how little 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.840 a heritage listing does to stop gas companies, the government 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:07.560 that profits from them, all the effects of climate change. Today. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.759 National correspondent from the Saturday Paper Mike Sekham on YUNESCO, 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:19.399 Woodside and the future of the Marojuga. It's Tuesday, July 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:27.520 twenty two, So Mike, let's start with this site that 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.679 is at the center of this debate. The Marojuga in 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.920 northwest western Australia. Tell me a bit about the place. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:35.959 Why is it so. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:40.559 Significant, Well, it's the site of millions of petroglyphs, one 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.319 to possibly two million. They haven't finished documenting them all, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.640 which are scattered across the Barrett Peninsula and the damp 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.120 Here Archipelago. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.680 Mala holand. 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.680 Yoga is a place that, you know, it's respected by 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.800 the Aboriginal people of this area and it's come to 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:08.480 be respected by the wider community for what's here. You know, 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:13.040 it's the Bible of Aboriginal people. Soame as white men 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:13.640 got a church. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.480 These patroglyphs, of course, are evidence of continuous human habitation 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.239 for fifty thousand years or more, so it's a big deal. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.120 This is possibly the biggest collection of ancient rock art 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.000 anywhere in the world, and for the past twenty odd 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.520 years it's been the subject of a campaign by the 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.200 traditional owners to have it listed with UNESCO as a 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:36.280 World Heritage Site. 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.800 Okay, Well, tell me more about that push for UNESCO listing. 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.840 What does getting something like that mean for a place 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:44.600 like Marijuga. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.520 Well, because World Heritage listing is reflected in domestic law. 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.560 Essentially it provides an additional layer of protection under the 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.720 EPBC Act, that's the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act, 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.800 to safeguard the future event any site listed. So what 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.880 it means in practice is that any actions that have 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.200 potential significant impacts on a World Heritage area have to 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.440 be ticked off by the Federal Environment Minister. 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:14.639 So you may remember that a few months ago I 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.639 announced my proposed decision about an application to build the 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.359 Central Queensland coal Mine. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.400 For example, a couple of years ago, the former Environment 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.960 Minister Tanya Plibasek knocked over a proposal by one of 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.200 Clive Palmer's companies to open a new coal mine adjacent 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.520 to the Great Berrier Reef on the basis that runoff 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.760 from the mine could affect the World Heritage values of 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:35.160 the reef. 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.520 The project would have had unacceptable impacts on freshwater in 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.480 the area and potentially on fragile seagrass meadows that feed 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.200 jugongs and provide breeding grounds for fish just off the coast. 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.520 In the case of Marojogga, of course, the area is 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.120 already home to heavy industry. There's a huge gas export 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.520 facility in the port of Karatha that's run by Woodside Energy. Incidentally, 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:03.080 when Woodside was building it's gas plant, it basically destroyed 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.440 a whole bunch of these petroglyphs, blew them up. Essentially, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.520 they removed some more, but they completely destroyed others. There 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:14.240 were concerns voiced by some scientists, by environmentalists and by 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.040 traditional owners that emissions from the industry in the area 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.440 were degrading the rock art. So one particular group of 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:28.000 traditional custodians, that Save our Songlines group, joined with conservationists 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.160 and I guess you could say saw Murga as a 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.880 chance to not only protect the rock art but also 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.559 to curb the carbon emissions coming out of the area, 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.800 and at the start of the year UNESCO agreed with them. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.120 They found that the government's proposal for listing should be 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.000 referred back to the government for further work. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:49.960 Okay, so what happened after that. 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:52.920 Well, there was a draft decision on May twenty six 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.320 from an advisory body to UNESCO that found that the 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.440 emissions from the heavy industry, including Woodside, was degrading the 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:05.279 rocket and they proposed some pretty radical measures requiring the 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.560 government to earn I'm quoting here, ensure the total removal 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.560 of degrading acidic emissions and to prevent any further development 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.400 and to plan for the decommissioning of the industry already 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.880 there so was a pretty big deal. Problem was two 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.760 days later the Federal Labor government released a proposed decision 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.559 from the new Environment Minister Murray Watt that would allow 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.400 Woodside to keep operating the gas facility and the port. 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.400 He proposed to allow operations that were to have finished 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.359 in twenty thirty to continue for another forty years, that 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:39.120 is out to twenty seventy. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:43.440 Today, Federal Environment Minister Murray Watt approved an extension to 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:48.840 the nearby Northwest Shelf Project, subject to strict conditions relating 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.479 to the impact of air emissions from the operation of 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.600 an expanded onshore Caratha gas plant. 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.640 And that in turn paves the way for a whole 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.240 bunch of new fossil fuel projects, you know, gas mining 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.920 in the northwest of Western Australia to feed this plant. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.960 So bottom line to all of this is that the 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.080 estimate is that the area could produce what environmentalists are 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.400 calling accurately, I would suggest a carbon bomb, you know, 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.280 releasing four point three billion with a b tons of 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.719 carbon dioxide into the atmosphere over the life of the planet. Right. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.320 So that's two very different competing visions for the future 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.640 of the Morro Jugger. One where the rock cut is 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:34.200 protected and the fossil fuel industry in the area is dismantled, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:39.120 and the other is where the entire area becomes, as 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.359 you say, a carbon bomb, and there's the potential for 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.000 even more mining developments to open up. So tell me 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:46.679 what happened. 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.680 Well, the World Heritage Committee earlier this month unanimously decided 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.560 to list Moro Juggur, So that's the good news. But 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.480 it also amended the earlier draft decision and walked back 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.640 the proposed d industrialization of the area. So the traditional 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.160 owners now have UNESCO Heritage listing for Moro Juga. Great, 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.360 but Woodside can keep on operating, you know, with all 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.080 the attendant climate consequences. 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.360 After the break the afternoon tea that led to UNESCO changing. 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:27.280 Their mind, I therefore declared the Drug Decision Decision forty 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.560 seven come eight to b point thirteen adopted as amended. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.200 Okay, So Mike, tell me then what we know about 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:44.040 UNESCO's decision making here to list the area. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.320 But with this amendment, well, it seems to be the 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.040 result of furious lobbying in the first place by the 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.240 Australian government. Murray what, for example, hosted more than a 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.360 dozen ambassadors from nations that are currently represented on the 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.440 World Heritage Committee, had them around for tea duchess them, 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.200 presumably with a view to getting this result. He's been 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:09.000 lobbying in other international forums. And furthermore, he pronounced the 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.880 draft decision was full of what he called factual inaccuracies, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.440 and that it relied on media and NGO advice IE 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.600 environment groups rather than scientific advice in reaching its earlier 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.360 decision that the area should be de industrialized. 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:28.760 In the end, what persuaded the committee was both the 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.320 scientific evidence that was put forward which disputed some of 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.040 the claims that were being made, but also the genuine 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.400 passion from the traditional owners to see this World Heritage 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:39.480 listing be secured. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.920 Right, Okay, so tell me who is right here? 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.280 Well, this is where it gets complicated, right. There is 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.160 scientific and expert evidence on both sides of the issue. Here. 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.920 There is scientific and expert evidence of damage to the petroglyphs, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:00.160 but a recent report involving about fifty scientists and the 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:04.480 more Jugger Aboriginal Corporation who were proposing the listing, and 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.160 the WA Department of Water and Environmental Regulation found that 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.640 there had been damage to the rock Cart, but much 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.440 of it was from historic emissions, not current ones, in 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.040 particular a decommission powerhouse that used to be there, And 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.120 the finding was that acid rain had damaged the rock 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.760 cart in the past, but what was causing the acid 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.760 rain was sulfur dioxide emissions. There was a lot of 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.560 sulfur in those days in the fuel that was used 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.800 by industry. There is no longer nearly as much sulfur 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.199 and fuel as there used to be, so the finding 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.640 was that there was no longer a problem with acid rain. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.199 The rain that was falling on these petroglyphs was pretty 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.959 much pH neutral or slightly alkaline. So on this very 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.200 specific issue of acid rain damaging the rock cart, they 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.440 found it was no longer a problem. Of course, then 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.160 there's the broader problem of greenhouse gases. But as the 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.400 scientist told me, that wasn't their brief. They weren't there 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:01.440 to assess wh that this was bad for the climate. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.760 They accept that it's bad for the climate. They were 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.600 there to assess whether it was bad for the rock 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.319 Art and they determined it wasn't. 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.440 So, Mike, we've gone from having this draft decision which 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.200 says that the rock art needs to be protected from 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.160 these industries, to then having this finding that says, well, 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.160 it can be listed with the industries that are damaging 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:25.880 it can also continue. So does this really undermine the 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.600 meaning of even providing a UNESCO listing? 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.280 Hard question? I think unbalanced. It's a good thing that 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.480 it's been a World Heritage listed, right, So that's the case. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.839 And Minister what has said that he will impose some 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.160 conditions on industry in the area. We haven't seen those 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.600 yet because so far, you know, we've only got his 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:50.400 proposed decision. We have ongoing negotiations between his department and 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.360 Woodside about the conditions that might pertain, So we'll have 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.160 to wait and see about those. But you know, there's 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.160 a bunch of money at the bottom of this, isn't there. 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.360 I mean, Woodside has contribute a lot of royalties and 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.480 tax dollars to the Australian treasury over the years following 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.000 the extension that you know, obviously they will contribute a 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.040 lot more. The Western Australian government in particular is very 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.960 much beholden to the gas industry, and by extension, so 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.600 is the federal government, because the federal government wants to 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.000 hold on to its seats in Western Australia. So you know, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.440 the process does seem to have been very much the 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.960 result of lobbying. Some of the more Juga traditional owners 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.800 that Save our song Lians group complained that they didn't 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.600 get a sufficient chance to state their case at the 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.200 World Heriage meeting in Paris. Various of the countries that 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:41.280 sponsored the amendments to the original draft to remove them 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.640 were big in the gas industry. You know, Japan, Koreer 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.839 take a lot of Australian gas. Qatar was in They're 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.520 a major gas producer. So there's a sort of somewhat 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:55.800 unholy mix here of the profit motive and electoral incentives 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:57.360 for the labor government. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.560 So where does all of this leave us, Mike, what 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:00.520 does the few to look like? 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.040 For more Jogger, Well, I would make the point that Katha, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.760 which is the nearest town which is where these industrial 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.200 facilities are, it's already one of the hottest places in Australia. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.360 I mean it has a record temperature that approaches fifty 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.320 degrees celsius. You'd have to think that, you know, another 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.160 another forty years fifty years of emissions from the gas 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.079 industry in Australia is only going to make things worse. 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.440 So you know, climate change, we know it's going to happen. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.439 There will be sea level rises which will incidentally affect 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.559 some of the petroglyphs. It's a very cyclonic area up there. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.160 There will be bigger, more powerful storms. Like I said, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.600 it's already one of the hottest parts of Australia, if 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.800 not the world. So the petroglyphs may survive, but you 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.600 have to wonder how the traditional custodians will endure the 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:48.640 climate of the future. 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.400 Mike, thank you for your time. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:53.240 Thank you. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.160 We've invited Environment Minister Murray what on the show. We 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:09.360 hope to bring you in interview with him soon. Also 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.800 in the news, Larissa Waters has backed the decision making 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.880 process that led to the expulsion of one of the 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.679 Australian Green's co founders from the party, saying nobody is 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.920 above the rules. Co founder Drew Hutton was removed from 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.080 the Greens over claims he fostered debate the party deems 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.880 as transphobic Following a complaint, a Greens committee found that 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.199 while Hutton himself had not demeaned trans women, he had 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.720 provided a platform for others to do so. Hutton says 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.680 the dispute is a matter of free speech and the 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.520 Greens have lost their way. Meanwhile, Waters says the party's 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:45.520 work on environmental, climate, economic and social justice doesn't stop 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.880 because of one man's focus on how other people identify it, 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.040 and Victorian Premier to Center Alan has promised a statewide 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.720 register of childcare within weeks. Alan conceded that childcare regulations 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.160 have not worked after revelations that allowed adg pedophile Joshua 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.560 Dale Brown was sacked from multiple centers and able to 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.080 continue working across the state. The Premier didn't comment on 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.920 the specifics of Brown's case, but said the Working with 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.560 Children CHECH process would be considered as part of a 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.000 broad review into the sector, and that the state based 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:20.240 register would eventually be absorbed into a national register. I'm 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.840 Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.