1 00:00:01,210 --> 00:00:03,890 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer, and this is Fear and Greed Sunday 2 00:00:03,890 --> 00:00:06,820 Sean Aylmer: feature interview. I'll be back again tomorrow with another weekday 3 00:00:06,820 --> 00:00:09,670 Sean Aylmer: episode of Fear and Greed, the normal mix of business 4 00:00:09,670 --> 00:00:12,209 Sean Aylmer: news and interviews that sets you up for a successful 5 00:00:12,210 --> 00:00:22,160 Sean Aylmer: day. In the meantime, enjoy our Sunday feature interview. Today, 6 00:00:22,230 --> 00:00:26,310 Sean Aylmer: something a little different. Business Wars is one of the most successful 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,510 Sean Aylmer: business podcast series in the world. There are literally millions 8 00:00:30,510 --> 00:00:33,150 Sean Aylmer: of Business Wars fans who enjoy listening to David Brown 9 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:35,550 Sean Aylmer: tell the real story behind some of the most famous 10 00:00:35,550 --> 00:00:38,280 Sean Aylmer: companies in the world. You learn a great deal about 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,370 Sean Aylmer: a business and its leaders, inventors, investors, and executives. You 12 00:00:42,370 --> 00:00:45,310 Sean Aylmer: also get into the fascinating and personal world, the things 13 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:49,100 Sean Aylmer: that drive those people, their inspirations, and above all, their 14 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:53,500 Sean Aylmer: rivalries. As we hear in Business Wars, sometimes those motivations 15 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:57,180 Sean Aylmer: take businesses to new heights, occasionally into the bizarre and 16 00:00:57,180 --> 00:01:00,620 Sean Aylmer: even to ruin. Throughout the series you also appreciate the 17 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:04,470 Sean Aylmer: masterful storytelling skills of host David Brown. I'm pleased to 18 00:01:04,470 --> 00:01:07,090 Sean Aylmer: say that David Brown host of Business Wars is my 19 00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:09,770 Sean Aylmer: guest today. David Brown, thank you for joining me. 20 00:01:09,950 --> 00:01:12,770 David Brown: Sean, thanks for the invitation. It's a lot of fun, 21 00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:14,009 David Brown: I appreciate you doing this. 22 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:17,590 Sean Aylmer: You've got quite a background, PhDs, journalists, radio host, you 23 00:01:17,590 --> 00:01:22,270 Sean Aylmer: love motorcycles, global politics, guitars, heavy metal music apparently. You 24 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:25,160 Sean Aylmer: sound like you're a renaissance man. How did you end up in Business Wars? 25 00:01:25,470 --> 00:01:28,350 David Brown: Well, it was kind of odd. I used to be 26 00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:31,390 David Brown: the host of a program called Marketplace on public radio 27 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,270 David Brown: here in the United States. And Marketplace is something of 28 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:38,649 David Brown: a sassy business show, when it began I guess it 29 00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:42,420 David Brown: must have been back around in the nineties. It was 30 00:01:42,420 --> 00:01:44,740 David Brown: remarkable in that it didn't just do sort of the 31 00:01:44,740 --> 00:01:47,369 David Brown: Wall Street in the stiff sort of front pages of 32 00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:50,210 David Brown: the business section, it was very human and fun, and 33 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:55,800 David Brown: said outrageous things. And it was a blast to work on. 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,670 David Brown: Well when Business Wars was, when the idea of the 35 00:01:58,670 --> 00:02:01,840 David Brown: concept was dreamt up by the folks at Wondery in 36 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,270 David Brown: Los Angeles, it turned out that, of course, there's been 37 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:07,630 David Brown: a major shift in the public radio sphere. A lot 38 00:02:07,630 --> 00:02:11,010 David Brown: of those folks who really know the craft of audio 39 00:02:11,010 --> 00:02:14,500 David Brown: production moved over to podcasting. And so they were looking 40 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,470 David Brown: for a host and one of the persons there, I 41 00:02:17,470 --> 00:02:20,269 David Brown: happened to work with once upon a time. And she 42 00:02:20,270 --> 00:02:22,239 David Brown: said, I know just the guy for this Business Wars 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,799 David Brown: thing. So she called up, I did a little audition 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,020 David Brown: on a speaker phone. And honestly, I swear to you, 45 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:31,600 David Brown: I thought it was going to be like a podcast 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,700 David Brown: or maybe two, you know? Wow. And so it's become 47 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:38,570 David Brown: one of the most fun gigs that I've ever had 48 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:41,580 David Brown: the blessing to be associated with. So it's been a 49 00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:42,100 David Brown: real treat. 50 00:02:42,460 --> 00:02:45,030 Sean Aylmer: Who actually came up with the concept? It's kind of 51 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:47,960 Sean Aylmer: like a spy novel for business people, that's how I think about 52 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,000 Sean Aylmer: it, a bit John (inaudible) I'd say. 53 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:52,100 David Brown: I love that. Well, I'll have to use that one. 54 00:02:52,260 --> 00:02:55,620 David Brown: Well, it was actually Hernan Lopez, who's the founder of 55 00:02:55,870 --> 00:02:58,750 David Brown: Wondery. He came up with the idea and it was 56 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:01,850 David Brown: basically if the title doesn't give it away and I think it's 57 00:03:02,150 --> 00:03:04,960 David Brown: pretty great title for what the program is, you're looking 58 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,630 David Brown: at some of these iconic brands, Microsoft versus Apple or 59 00:03:10,260 --> 00:03:14,040 David Brown: Nike versus Adidas, that kind of thing. And you had 60 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,790 David Brown: Blockbusters there in Australia, or once upon a time? 61 00:03:16,889 --> 00:03:17,010 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yeah. 62 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:20,210 David Brown: Once upon a time. Well, Blockbuster versus Netflix was an 63 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:23,619 David Brown: obvious one. So the idea was to talk about these 64 00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:26,530 David Brown: iconic brands but in an historic context, in which you sort 65 00:03:26,530 --> 00:03:30,130 David Brown: of see the evolution of these brands before they were 66 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:33,389 David Brown: the brands that we know them today. And in the 67 00:03:33,389 --> 00:03:36,140 David Brown: process, we're telling a story. So we're doing a lot 68 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:38,940 David Brown: of acting in the course of the podcast. We're not just talking 69 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:42,760 David Brown: about the brands, we're actually unraveling a story, but we 70 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,730 David Brown: have dialogue. And I think one of the biggest challenges 71 00:03:45,730 --> 00:03:48,960 David Brown: for me, because I come from public radio journalism, was 72 00:03:49,770 --> 00:03:52,410 David Brown: having to do the voices. Because I'd never had to 73 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:56,620 David Brown: do that kind of acting before. And so that was 74 00:03:56,620 --> 00:04:00,800 David Brown: a challenge, but it's also a growth opportunity, but I've 75 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:01,220 David Brown: enjoyed it. 76 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,070 Sean Aylmer: So how do you come up with, you mentioned Blockbuster 77 00:04:04,070 --> 00:04:07,210 Sean Aylmer: versus Netflix. That was the very first one, but then you've 78 00:04:07,210 --> 00:04:09,200 Sean Aylmer: gone on to do so many other ones, big wars 79 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,450 Sean Aylmer: between different organizations in different sectors. It's quite incredible the 80 00:04:12,470 --> 00:04:13,280 Sean Aylmer: information you get. 81 00:04:13,670 --> 00:04:16,760 David Brown: Listeners give us great ideas. Now I should tell you 82 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:22,330 David Brown: that ... Wondery has a terrific staff of researchers and writers. 83 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:24,370 David Brown: In fact, some of the people who have written these 84 00:04:24,370 --> 00:04:27,190 David Brown: series have literally written the book on the industries that 85 00:04:27,190 --> 00:04:28,121 David Brown: we're talking about. Right. 86 00:04:28,121 --> 00:04:28,411 Sean Aylmer: Right. 87 00:04:29,110 --> 00:04:34,570 David Brown: So for instance, when we did, I don't know if 88 00:04:34,570 --> 00:04:36,990 David Brown: you've ever heard the name UNIVAC, but UNIVAC was one 89 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:39,700 David Brown: of the first computers, UNIVAC versus IBM sort of laid 90 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,940 David Brown: the groundwork for what would ultimately become the personal PC 91 00:04:42,940 --> 00:04:46,599 David Brown: revolution. So we had as one of the writers for 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,589 David Brown: that series, someone who had actually been a part of 93 00:04:49,830 --> 00:04:52,359 David Brown: what is considered to be the definitive book, but then 94 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,580 David Brown: you have to tweak it and twist it because as 95 00:04:54,580 --> 00:04:57,230 David Brown: I'm sure that a lot of your fans know, and 96 00:04:57,230 --> 00:05:00,490 David Brown: I'm certain that you do, writing for the ear is 97 00:05:00,490 --> 00:05:03,110 David Brown: a different animal than writing for the eye. You know? 98 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:05,620 David Brown: So we have editors who will try to pull this 99 00:05:05,620 --> 00:05:08,290 David Brown: apart and get it more in line with the oral 100 00:05:08,290 --> 00:05:12,589 David Brown: storytelling tradition. And that's before I get a chance to 101 00:05:12,589 --> 00:05:18,049 David Brown: see it. And then when I'm doing the podcast, I'm 102 00:05:18,050 --> 00:05:22,490 David Brown: in a little booth here at my house and have 103 00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:25,730 David Brown: a producer in one ear and we're going through the 104 00:05:25,730 --> 00:05:28,190 David Brown: script and quite often we're having to redo things and 105 00:05:28,190 --> 00:05:31,570 David Brown: that sort of thing, but she's listening in and correcting 106 00:05:31,570 --> 00:05:33,440 David Brown: me or telling me " No, that he needs to be 107 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,980 David Brown: mad." You know? So there's a good bit of that going on 108 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:40,510 David Brown: in the process of recording. And then, that audio gets 109 00:05:40,510 --> 00:05:43,410 David Brown: sent to a sound designer and the sound designer works 110 00:05:43,410 --> 00:05:45,810 David Brown: in the sound effects and the music and all that 111 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:49,100 David Brown: based on cues, that have been provided by the producer. 112 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,920 David Brown: And then it goes through another whole listening session. And 113 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,380 David Brown: then it comes back for tweaks and changes. But it's 114 00:05:55,380 --> 00:05:58,970 David Brown: a bit like, I've never been involved in movie production, 115 00:05:58,970 --> 00:06:00,510 David Brown: but it's a bit like that. You know, you have 116 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:03,570 David Brown: so many different ears on this content. 117 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:06,239 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, David, we'll be back in a minute. 118 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,130 Sean Aylmer: I'm talking to David Brown host of Business Wars. How do you 119 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:15,380 Sean Aylmer: come up with the content? 120 00:06:15,550 --> 00:06:18,190 David Brown: They have to be iconic, because of course in any 121 00:06:18,210 --> 00:06:21,570 David Brown: industry you have little known names, but the battles may 122 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:25,729 David Brown: be epic. Unfortunately, it's not going to be particularly interesting 123 00:06:25,730 --> 00:06:28,409 David Brown: to people who don't have their own personal association with it and that's 124 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:30,930 David Brown: what it's all about. I mean, in a perfect world 125 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,260 David Brown: and I don't want to overstate this, although I tend 126 00:06:33,260 --> 00:06:37,640 David Brown: to, but I think when you see people wearing T- 127 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,240 David Brown: Shirts with Nintendo, right, and they don't work for Nintendo, that 128 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,310 David Brown: says something about that brand. And so we look for 129 00:06:45,310 --> 00:06:48,609 David Brown: those companies that not just have great stories to tell, 130 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,719 David Brown: but also have a place in our hearts, in a 131 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,909 David Brown: sense. You know, that's important. 132 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:55,390 Sean Aylmer: Do the companies ever help you out? 133 00:06:56,310 --> 00:06:56,900 David Brown: No. 134 00:06:57,089 --> 00:06:58,089 Sean Aylmer: Bet they don't really like it. 135 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,039 David Brown: Well, that's a good question. I don't know of any 136 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,409 David Brown: that have actually protested or have actually, but no, we 137 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:10,200 David Brown: try to sort of insulate ourselves and this is another 138 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,940 David Brown: important thing too, because if you look at corporate biographies, 139 00:07:14,210 --> 00:07:17,410 David Brown: these sorts of glory tales of how a company got 140 00:07:17,410 --> 00:07:20,660 David Brown: to the top. Quite often they leave out a lot 141 00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:25,840 David Brown: of the gory details. And so part of the business 142 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,270 David Brown: of Business Wars is trying to find out about those 143 00:07:28,270 --> 00:07:33,190 David Brown: personalities, because look, business is kind of boring, but if 144 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,440 David Brown: you're talking about the people behind it, oh man. That's 145 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,040 David Brown: where the motherload is. Right. I mean, it's just all 146 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,750 David Brown: about these personalities. Companies don't engage in strategy. People engage 147 00:07:43,750 --> 00:07:46,100 David Brown: in strategy and that's the heart and soul of Business 148 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:46,600 David Brown: Wars I think. 149 00:07:46,730 --> 00:07:48,700 Sean Aylmer: So what I really noticed when I started listening to 150 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:52,210 Sean Aylmer: Business Wars, in every episode there's a moment where you 151 00:07:52,210 --> 00:07:56,200 Sean Aylmer: have characters, basically the heads of the businesses, talking to 152 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,440 Sean Aylmer: each other, pondering an issue, it's very real life. There's 153 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,790 Sean Aylmer: almost a seminal moment where they have to make a 154 00:08:01,790 --> 00:08:04,080 Sean Aylmer: decision. You know, they go left or they go, right. 155 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,470 Sean Aylmer: What am I going to do? It's very, very real. The people are 156 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,070 Sean Aylmer: very real I suppose. You must work hard to try 157 00:08:10,070 --> 00:08:10,840 Sean Aylmer: and bring that out? 158 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:14,050 David Brown: We do. You know, it's funny because I know that 159 00:08:14,050 --> 00:08:16,190 David Brown: a lot of your listeners are aware of concepts like 160 00:08:16,190 --> 00:08:18,590 David Brown: first mover advantage, which is something that comes up in 161 00:08:18,590 --> 00:08:22,980 David Brown: business school case studies. And this is first mover advantage 162 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:25,180 David Brown: is this idea that if you can conquer the mountain 163 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:29,989 David Brown: first, then you'll sort of own the territory. Amazon is 164 00:08:30,070 --> 00:08:34,030 David Brown: sometimes sided as a first mover advantage story. But the 165 00:08:34,030 --> 00:08:37,530 David Brown: truth is, what we've learned ... What I've learned in the 166 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:40,590 David Brown: course of doing these Business War stories, is that the 167 00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:46,170 David Brown: first mover advantage is often overstated. A perfect example is, we are 168 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,910 David Brown: not using Netscape right now. Right, I mean, I don't 169 00:08:49,910 --> 00:08:53,760 David Brown: use Netscape. The last time I did a web search 170 00:08:53,809 --> 00:08:57,700 David Brown: I wasn't using Yahoo. I was using Google, right. So 171 00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:00,270 David Brown: clearly, I mean, just look around you and think about 172 00:09:01,070 --> 00:09:04,689 David Brown: the things that we eat, the things that we watch, 173 00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:09,850 David Brown: the things that entertain us, the things that we care 174 00:09:09,850 --> 00:09:12,160 David Brown: about that we're passionate about, the brands that we are 175 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,730 David Brown: passionate about quite often, aren't those first out of the 176 00:09:15,730 --> 00:09:19,729 David Brown: gate. These are companies that quite often have figured a 177 00:09:19,730 --> 00:09:26,869 David Brown: way to navigate this battlefield in a way that is 178 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:30,500 David Brown: consistent with what it is that customers want, but also 179 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:34,520 David Brown: at the same time going for something larger, sometimes they're 180 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,940 David Brown: going for the other guys. Sometimes they're going for the 181 00:09:36,940 --> 00:09:40,220 David Brown: big bucks. Sometimes they're going to establish something in a 182 00:09:40,220 --> 00:09:42,880 David Brown: kind of legacy sense and I'd rather think that the 183 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,819 David Brown: story of Elon Musk in SpaceX and which is coming up 184 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:50,150 David Brown: on Business Wars pretty soon, that's one of those larger 185 00:09:50,150 --> 00:09:53,750 David Brown: than life sort of historic sort of ... We look for 186 00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:54,960 David Brown: those kinds of stories. 187 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Sean Aylmer: Do you think there are common traits of the people 188 00:09:57,990 --> 00:09:58,770 Sean Aylmer: that succeed? 189 00:09:59,270 --> 00:10:04,610 David Brown: It's tough to say. I think that everyone involved with 190 00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:09,450 David Brown: an iconic company has a vision and a focus, which 191 00:10:09,890 --> 00:10:12,380 David Brown: you know, is easy for me to say vision and 192 00:10:12,380 --> 00:10:15,360 David Brown: focus. But the reason that I think it's important to 193 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,990 David Brown: emphasize that, is because quite often in business, people are 194 00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:24,220 David Brown: focused on strategy and tactics. And tons of money spent 195 00:10:24,330 --> 00:10:29,080 David Brown: on building up organizations that pursue strategy and tactics. But 196 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:31,829 David Brown: it's the vision thing as they used to say. That 197 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:35,730 David Brown: I think all of these people have, there's another trait 198 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:38,260 David Brown: that I think that all of these visionaries and I 199 00:10:38,260 --> 00:10:41,090 David Brown: take that right down to even small entrepreneurs, they definitely 200 00:10:41,620 --> 00:10:45,390 David Brown: have a vision. I think that a lot of the 201 00:10:45,390 --> 00:10:51,820 David Brown: successful visionaries learn to understand that resistance is an opportunity 202 00:10:51,820 --> 00:10:55,670 David Brown: or at least a signal that opportunity exists, and then 203 00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:59,880 David Brown: how they capitalize on that opportunity kind of distinguishes winners 204 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:00,620 David Brown: from losers. 205 00:11:01,150 --> 00:11:03,309 Sean Aylmer: So with several of the podcasts, as they go through 206 00:11:03,309 --> 00:11:06,600 Sean Aylmer: the war, you can actually see each side trying to 207 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:08,840 Sean Aylmer: work out what the other is doing and not really 208 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,570 Sean Aylmer: knowing. And often both of them on a knife's edge 209 00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:13,800 Sean Aylmer: about whether they're going to make it, but it sort 210 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,070 Sean Aylmer: of highlights your point here. It's about resilience. It's about 211 00:11:17,070 --> 00:11:17,990 Sean Aylmer: beating the odds. 212 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,690 David Brown: You know, I was thinking about, I don't believe Southwest 213 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:27,360 David Brown: airlines flies to Australia, not yet, but someday I'll bet. 214 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:30,350 David Brown: We did a series on Southwest airlines versus American and 215 00:11:30,350 --> 00:11:35,300 David Brown: obviously this doesn't per se of course, folks in Australia 216 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:40,480 David Brown: know about American airlines. It's a dominant global carrier, but 217 00:11:40,610 --> 00:11:43,320 David Brown: an interesting little side note to this and one of 218 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,839 David Brown: the reasons why I think Business Wars has a somewhat 219 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,190 David Brown: universal sort of feel to it, is that what Southwest 220 00:11:50,190 --> 00:11:53,800 David Brown: did when it got pinned in by leaders at American 221 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,929 David Brown: who wanted to keep this little airline down, it took 222 00:11:56,929 --> 00:12:01,030 David Brown: advantage of the fact that American had come up with 223 00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:07,000 David Brown: a whole string of governmental regulations. American had the lobbying 224 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,280 David Brown: power, to basically try to restrict this little airline that 225 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:15,120 David Brown: could within the confines of Texas. Well, Southwest took advantage 226 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,699 David Brown: of that. In fact, it was restricted to flying in 227 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,820 David Brown: and out of Dallas from Love Field, L- O- V- 228 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:22,840 David Brown: E. But it took that and ran with it and 229 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,750 David Brown: turned Love into a brand. And so these days, the 230 00:12:25,750 --> 00:12:28,699 David Brown: Love airline is Southwest. And in fact, Southwest has now 231 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,300 David Brown: become a national carrier. That's a very small story, but 232 00:12:33,950 --> 00:12:37,990 David Brown: I'm saying that anyone who knows or is interested in 233 00:12:37,990 --> 00:12:42,610 David Brown: business or the way that these fights happen can extract 234 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:48,040 David Brown: incredible tales from companies that may not yet be completely 235 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,730 David Brown: global, but no doubt Southwest is going to be one 236 00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:53,750 David Brown: day. I have to say one other thing and I 237 00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:57,349 David Brown: find this really interesting is Sean, we get a lot of 238 00:12:57,450 --> 00:13:02,080 David Brown: listeners in Australia and India. Now I'd have to go 239 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,900 David Brown: back and do the numbers here, but I have to 240 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:09,460 David Brown: say that for some reason, a lot of listeners and 241 00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:12,309 David Brown: it's not just that they're listening, they're commenting too. We 242 00:13:12,309 --> 00:13:15,920 David Brown: get tons of comments from folks in Australia and India. 243 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,190 David Brown: I'm on LinkedIn, and I sort of limit my social 244 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:22,140 David Brown: media exposure, but not a day goes by when I 245 00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:25,370 David Brown: don't hear from a listener or more in those two 246 00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:26,510 David Brown: countries. Fascinating. 247 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,080 Sean Aylmer: I think the media in Australia is very focused on 248 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,170 Sean Aylmer: business, relative to other places around the world. So maybe 249 00:13:32,170 --> 00:13:35,790 Sean Aylmer: that's it, just quickly on Southwest you mentioned them, that 250 00:13:35,790 --> 00:13:38,500 Sean Aylmer: airline had a very strong leader. How important is it 251 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:40,599 Sean Aylmer: that we have a strong leader at the very top of 252 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:41,490 Sean Aylmer: the organization? 253 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,300 David Brown: I think it's real important, but I think that having 254 00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:49,439 David Brown: a strong leader, obviously isn't sufficient. One of the things 255 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,100 David Brown: that strong leaders tend to want to do is to 256 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:56,130 David Brown: retain that position within a company, especially when a company 257 00:13:56,130 --> 00:14:00,500 David Brown: gets successful. There's this idea that everyone wants to be 258 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:02,610 David Brown: the next Steve Jobs or wants to be the next 259 00:14:02,610 --> 00:14:07,640 David Brown: Herb Kelleher of Southwest. Everyone wants to be that next 260 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,700 David Brown: leader, but the truth is another strand that comes out 261 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:16,970 David Brown: of analyzing these business battles is that it's not sufficient 262 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:20,080 David Brown: to map out your battlefield. You have to be willing 263 00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:25,250 David Brown: to share that map with those that are working with 264 00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:27,760 David Brown: you. And if you don't do that quite often you 265 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,950 David Brown: can lose the way, and you find major companies, I 266 00:14:32,950 --> 00:14:35,650 David Brown: don't know they used to call it Woolies in Australia? 267 00:14:35,890 --> 00:14:36,780 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Woolworths. 268 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,360 David Brown: Right, here in the United States it's non- existent and 269 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,200 David Brown: people of a certain generation have never heard of Woolworths. But 270 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,979 David Brown: that's a perfect example of a company that lost its 271 00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:48,950 David Brown: way because there wasn't a clear roadmap at that middle 272 00:14:49,050 --> 00:14:52,010 David Brown: level of management. Right. And so they couldn't seize the 273 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:56,730 David Brown: opportunities that those individuals were perfectly situated to capitalize upon. 274 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:59,440 David Brown: They just couldn't do it, Blockbuster versus Netflix is another 275 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,160 David Brown: perfect example of that kind of dynamic happening. 276 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:09,440 Sean Aylmer: We'll be back in a moment. My guest this morning 277 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,560 Sean Aylmer: is David Brown host of Business Wars. So what are 278 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:13,960 Sean Aylmer: your favorite business wars? 279 00:15:14,890 --> 00:15:17,880 David Brown: Fender versus Gibson comes to mind. 280 00:15:18,110 --> 00:15:19,740 Sean Aylmer: Yeah but that's personal that one for you. 281 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:23,950 David Brown: Yeah, it sure is. I'm a guitar player, I'm looking 282 00:15:23,950 --> 00:15:28,630 David Brown: at one or two right now and wanting to get 283 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:32,630 David Brown: one out. Yeah. I love Fender versus Gibson ... We were 284 00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:34,970 David Brown: talking a little bit about first mover advantage, that's another 285 00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:37,820 David Brown: example of how it's not sufficient to be a good 286 00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:40,479 David Brown: first mover. You've got to get it right again and 287 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,730 David Brown: again and again. And one of the interesting things is, 288 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,540 David Brown: is there a winner between Gibson and Fender? You could 289 00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:50,680 David Brown: say that maybe no, but that's because both companies have 290 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,540 David Brown: done so well in challenging each other over the years 291 00:15:55,590 --> 00:16:00,990 David Brown: to improve the caliber of the product. So Gibson and 292 00:16:00,990 --> 00:16:04,540 David Brown: Fenders, one of those that still waging wars. 293 00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:08,170 Sean Aylmer: Pizza Hut and Dominoes, McDonald's and Burger King, Adidas and 294 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:11,980 Sean Aylmer: Nike, FedEx UPS. I think you did name, all of 295 00:16:11,980 --> 00:16:15,330 Sean Aylmer: those they've probably become better as a result of the war. 296 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,460 David Brown: No question about it. I mean, Dominoes was inedible by 297 00:16:19,460 --> 00:16:22,050 David Brown: some accounts for quite a while, but in fact, it 298 00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:25,940 David Brown: was realizing what they had to do to survive and 299 00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:30,120 David Brown: that was made apparent by the fact that Pizza Hut 300 00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:35,520 David Brown: was almost untoppable. Neither company really embraced social media as 301 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,000 David Brown: it should have, but when Dominoes did finally wake up 302 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,180 David Brown: to the fact that something was going on, on social 303 00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:45,060 David Brown: media about their company, they realized that their product, they 304 00:16:45,060 --> 00:16:48,030 David Brown: had a choice to make. They had to either admit 305 00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:53,140 David Brown: that their product wasn't good, it wasn't tasty, as all 306 00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:57,700 David Brown: of the haters were saying online. Well, I say that 307 00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:00,370 David Brown: they had a choice to do that or not. No, 308 00:17:00,370 --> 00:17:03,410 David Brown: it really ultimately at the middle level, people who were 309 00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:06,100 David Brown: sensitive to this stuff realized that they didn't have a 310 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:08,850 David Brown: choice, if they wanted to survive and ever have a 311 00:17:08,850 --> 00:17:11,950 David Brown: hope of topping Pizza Hut, they would have to embrace 312 00:17:11,950 --> 00:17:14,250 David Brown: the hate. And that's what they did, it started an 313 00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:18,790 David Brown: epic campaign, an ad campaign globally in which Domino said, 314 00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:21,169 David Brown: no, we stink, but we're going to get it right. 315 00:17:21,170 --> 00:17:24,270 David Brown: And we challenge you to check us out again. And 316 00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:28,130 David Brown: it revolutionized the company and within 10 years, Dominoes was 317 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:31,380 David Brown: the number one selling pizza brand on the planet, and 318 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:32,070 David Brown: it still is today. 319 00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:34,760 Sean Aylmer: The people that had the license down here also have 320 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,629 Sean Aylmer: it for France and Germany and Japan, Luxembourg. And it's one of the 321 00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:40,790 Sean Aylmer: best stocks on the local market in the last five 322 00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:44,070 Sean Aylmer: years or so, incredible. So just before we go, what 323 00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:46,480 Sean Aylmer: have you got coming up? Tesla obviously, or an Elon 324 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,189 Sean Aylmer: Musk at least. 325 00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:49,850 David Brown: Well, yeah, let the cat out of the bag there. 326 00:17:50,170 --> 00:17:53,369 David Brown: Jim Beam and Johnnie Walker are coming up as well. 327 00:17:53,369 --> 00:17:58,760 David Brown: Yeah, we have some of the college testing companies that 328 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,219 David Brown: are on the line in our Wondery Plus series. We 329 00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:06,410 David Brown: have some pretty exciting ones, I don't know, I think 330 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:11,380 David Brown: we recently concluded the Denim Wars with Levi's and Wrangler 331 00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:17,010 David Brown: jeans, and we're just finishing up ... This is not a 332 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:20,330 David Brown: typical business war, but it's the war among the brothers 333 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:25,420 David Brown: of the Gallo wine company. Boy, it's a family war, 334 00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:28,970 David Brown: but it's a bloody war too. It's a really interesting 335 00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:32,020 David Brown: one, you have Gallo wine there in Australia? 336 00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:34,480 Sean Aylmer: Look, I was actually looking at that episode this morning 337 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,190 Sean Aylmer: and I don't know if we do. 338 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,300 David Brown: I bet you do and you don't even realize that 339 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:41,740 David Brown: these guys are monsters. They're huge. Yeah, absolutely. But Australia 340 00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:42,830 David Brown: has wonderful wine so. 341 00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:44,130 Sean Aylmer: We're very proud of our wines. 342 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,879 David Brown: Anyone interested in wines in the wine industry will absolutely 343 00:18:48,980 --> 00:18:50,540 David Brown: eat up the Gallo. 344 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,710 Sean Aylmer: David, thanks for speaking to Fear and Greed. 345 00:18:52,869 --> 00:18:55,290 David Brown: Sean, thanks so much for taking time to talk. Appreciate it. 346 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,880 Sean Aylmer: That was David Brown, host of Business Wars.