1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From the newsroom. I news to come to day you. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Goodday there. I'm Andrew Bucklow, and I've got a question 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: for you. Is the temperature in your office too cold 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: or just right? Now? If you said just right, I'm 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: gonna take a stab and say that you're a bloke, 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: because apparently women all over Australia think their workplaces are 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: freezing and they are fed up with it. One of 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: the people who's fed up is my colleague who I'm 9 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: about to call. She's written an article about this for 10 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: news dot com dot Au. It has gone off on 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: social media so many comments. In just a moment, she'll 12 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: explain why temperatures are set to the level they are, 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: how it affects men and women differently, and what changes 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: women what made today Okay? I was trying to make 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: it sound like my teeth were chattering there, but I 16 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: don't think I nailed it at all. Yours cool DISA. 17 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: One person who can relate to that song is news 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: dot com reporter Eleanor Wickland, who joins me on the 19 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: phone right now. She's working from home because it's too 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: damn cold in the office. Good al good a, how 21 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: are you going? I am I'm actually in the office 22 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: and I'm a little bit chilly. For those who haven't 23 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: read your piece yet, can you just paint a picture 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: for what it's like for you and other women in 25 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: the office on a daily. 26 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: Basis one hundred percent. So as soon as I walk 27 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: into the office, I'll always just make a beeline for 28 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 2: the office kitchen. I'll fill up my mug of hot 29 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: water just so I can like cradle it in my 30 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: hands when I get to my. 31 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: Desk and warm off a little bit. 32 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: And then when I'm sitting at my desk, I like 33 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: cocoon myself in a blanket, and I'll always keep my 34 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: jacket on because it's just too cold. And so I'm 35 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 2: often working in multiple layers and it's just really uncomfortable. 36 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: But you gotta do what you got to do. Other 37 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: women I've seen in the office have taken other measures, 38 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: like using hot water bottles. I know one girl actually 39 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: has one on her stomach and one on her legs. 40 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: She takes like a too pronged approach. And yeah, there's 41 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: lots of other creative ideas. I've seen heaters on the desk. Basically, 42 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 2: we're all just freezing because of this thing that I 43 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: to call the gender temperature gap, and it's basically that 44 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: men can survive and an office it's colder, but women 45 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: at the same temperature will be basically freezing their tits off. 46 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well let's get into this. So this 47 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: isn't just the news dot com dot Au offer. I 48 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: want to stress that women all over Australia think that 49 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: their offices are too cold as well. Why is this 50 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: the case? 51 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So basically, office temperatures are set according 52 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: to a formula that was designed in the nineteen sixties, 53 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 2: so pretty outdated. The guidelines are known as Ashray fifty 54 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: five and they were basically created by looking at the 55 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: comfort levels of a group of office workers under different 56 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: conditions like humidity and temperature. But the kicker is the 57 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: study actually only included men, so not exactly an accurate 58 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 2: representation of office workers, but obviously at the time they 59 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: thought that it was, and maybe perhaps at the time 60 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: it actually was. So the study basically only included forty 61 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: year old men or around forty year old men. They 62 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: all weighed around seventy kilos and they were all wearing 63 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 2: a suit, so that was supposed to represent the standard 64 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: office worker at the time, and then the formula aimed 65 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: to make sure that at least eighty percent of people 66 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: in an office would be satisfied with the temperature. But 67 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: this was done in nineteen sixty six. And yeah, like 68 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: I said, the demographic makeup of like a standard office 69 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: has changed quite a bit since then, so it's quite outdated. 70 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: So do we know what temperature that recommended offices be 71 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: said at. 72 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: So it is based on a formula, so will change 73 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: based on how many people in the office and the 74 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: size of the office. But generally the standard temperature in 75 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: OSSIE offices is twenty two degrees right. 76 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, according to your article, women often feel the 77 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: cold more than men. This isn't just you winging, This 78 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: is actually a scientific thing. Tell me more about this. Yeah. 79 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: So, obviously women and men have different metabolic rates and 80 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: hormonal variations, so men typically have a faster metabolism and 81 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: they generate more internal heat, whereas us women we produce 82 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: less and so we often feel cooler in the same environment. 83 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: I think the status is women's metabolic rates are up 84 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: to thirty two percent lower than men's, so office temperatures 85 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: are often five to six degrees too cold for women. 86 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: Women's hands and feet are also often a few degrees 87 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: cooler than men's, and we often register temperature mostly through 88 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: our skin, especially like at our extremities. So when we 89 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,239 Speaker 2: get cold hands, like in the office, when we're typing 90 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: all day, we literally feel freezing. 91 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: And that affects your work right literally. 92 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: Like my fingers are frozen. Sometimes I'm just typing it 93 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: like a slower rate and being less productive. 94 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not ideal. If our bosses are listening, they'll 95 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: be like, hang on a minute, this is affecting productivity. Now, 96 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: you make the point in your article that this isn't 97 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: just about a few Chili officers. It's actually part of 98 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: a broader issue around design and inclusion. You claim it's sexist. 99 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: Tell us more about how temperature ties into systemic bias. 100 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: One hundred percent, I will die on this hill. I 101 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 2: think this is definitely a systemic gender issue. Being cold 102 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: all the time, like I said, can affect our productivity, 103 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: but it can also affect our mood and our sleep 104 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: and basically just make us less effective workers, and that 105 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: can impact our job performance and our careers. I actually 106 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: spoke to a global cultural strategist who advises on inclusive design. 107 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: Her name's Tanya Finney, and she calls these freezing office 108 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: temperatures a symptom of design neglect. So it's basically infrastructure 109 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: that's built by men for men. And she says that 110 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: we see this in lots of other areas of society, 111 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: so home building standards, urban planning, even crash test dummies 112 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: PP that's not designed for women. And healthcare, so up 113 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: until nineteen ninety three in the US, women weren't even 114 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: required to be included in clinical trials. So you can 115 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: only imagine what that means for decades of medical research 116 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: and misdiagnoses and stuff like that. 117 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, So what changes do you want to 118 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: see l as a result of this article? How would 119 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: you like office managers all over the country to respond? 120 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: You've got their ears right now, go ahead. 121 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: A lot of people in my comments said that I 122 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 2: want the temperatures to be raised to suit women, and 123 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: that's equally sexist, and I agree, that's literally not what 124 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: I'm asking for. I think we just need to find 125 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: a comfortable middle ground that suits both men and women. 126 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so you don't just want, you know, free hot 127 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: water bottles, because we can do that nice, Yeah, Okay, 128 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 1: you mentioned comments there. Your article has got a lot 129 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: of feedback online, Like we're talking hundreds of comments. How 130 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: about you stick around. We'll go to an ad and 131 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: in just a moment, I'm gonna read some of the 132 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: more interesting comments to you and get you to respond. Okay, 133 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: let's do it. Welcome back Iam Chaddington us dot com 134 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: dot us el Wickland, who claims it is sexist that 135 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: office temperatures are based on a nineteen sixties formula which 136 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: is designed for men. She says it is too chilly 137 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: for women in the office because they feel the cold 138 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: more easily, and she wants the temperature bumped up just 139 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: a few degrees to make life easier for women. Her 140 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: article has attracted hundreds of comments online, some of which 141 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you to respond to. Now, Elle, you ready, 142 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: I think so? All right? Bo is the first one 143 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to read. He wrote, where more layers? If 144 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 1: you get cold, you can wear more. There's no limit. 145 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: But if I get hot, I have a finite number 146 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: of layers I can remove before I'm working in my underwear. 147 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: What would you like to say to boat Boat You. 148 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: Need to get a desk fan. First of all, but seriously, 149 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: why should we be the ones I have to rug up? 150 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: Surely if we can just find a middle ground where 151 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: you don't have to be in your underwear and I 152 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: don't have to be in ten thousand layers. 153 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: That's a fair call. And I actually looked at Bow's 154 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: profile Fighter and I don't know if I do want 155 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: to see him in he's underwear. To be honest, we 156 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: had someone called Jenny right through. They said to you, 157 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: maybe try working outside instead of in an office and 158 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: see how you go. Office workers are so spoiled. What 159 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: would you like to say to Jenny? 160 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: Jenny, where's the female solidarity? Also, like, if you're working outside, 161 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: you've often got like a physical job. You're moving around, 162 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: you're generating heat, you're warming up, whereas in the office 163 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: you're literally sitting inside. You're staying in one place, you're 164 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: not moving around. And I don't want to do squats 165 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: at my desk, Jenny. 166 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: Jim wrote on the news dot com dot a u 167 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: Facebook page. Perhaps if more women wore suits to the 168 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: office like men are generally expected to, there wouldn't be 169 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: such a difference in heating and cooling requirements. 170 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: This is just so sexist, But like if he wants 171 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: a genuine answer. First of all, Jim, I always wear suits, 172 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: and also it just has more to do with our 173 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: hormones and our different metabolisms and less about what we're 174 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: actually wearing. So read a book. 175 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Jim, I can confirm that Elle often wears suits 176 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: like she looks like Hillary Clinton half the time in 177 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: your much younger suits. Yeah, John wrote, is there anything 178 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: these women won't complain about? You wanted to work just 179 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: like men? Deal with it. 180 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: I think I'll stop complaining, John when we close the 181 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: gender temperature gap and I can work in equal conditions 182 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: to men. 183 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: All right, let's finish with one from Rob. He wrote, 184 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: how is this sexist? It was a study done years 185 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: ago when times were vastly different. Stop making everything into 186 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: a catalyst to start gender bashing because you have such 187 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: a narrow view of the world. If it's such an issue, 188 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: can be a new study and get up to date 189 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: results instead of carrying on like a two year old 190 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: who's been kicked out of the sand pit. 191 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: It's quite creative. 192 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: Rob. 193 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: First of all, I'm pretty sure at the beginning of 194 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: that he literally proved my point, and he said the 195 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: study was done years ago. When times were different, like literally, 196 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: that's when you know more men were in the office 197 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: unless when we're in the workforce and times have changed. 198 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: So Rob, you've proved my point. You're a little bit 199 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: confused there. And secondly, there are new studies that have 200 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: been done that show that temperature should be at least 201 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 2: a few degrees higher than it currently is the officers, 202 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: so I don't need to be commissioning them myself. 203 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: I thank you. There you go, cop that. Rob. This 204 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: has been such a fascinating topic and it kind of 205 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: has opened my eyes to this issue because I look 206 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: around the office and I never really questioned why all 207 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: the women were wearing hoodies at their desk and all 208 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: the guys are just sitting there in short sleeve shirts. Ell, 209 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: I let you have the final say. What would you 210 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: like to say? 211 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: I think rug up women, stay safe out there, stay 212 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 2: warm until things change. Good luck to your all. 213 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: You know your KNR nickname in the office is going 214 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: to be the ice Queen. I know. 215 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: I it's so funny. All the women are loving me 216 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: and all the men are giving me the side eyes 217 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: like don't you touch the thermostat all? 218 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Right, thank you so much for coming on the podcast 219 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: today and we will be back with another episode on Monday. 220 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: Follow us, subscribe to from the Newsroom, wherever you get 221 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: your podcasts.