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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to talk about abortion first up, because

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Speaker 1: yesterday in Queensland, a midwife, lou Adset, gave extraordinary and

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Speaker 1: harrowing evidence to a state parliament committee there that is

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Speaker 1: examining abortion legislation in Queensland. The bill before their parliament

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Speaker 1: aims to give better protection to babies born alive in

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Speaker 1: the form of either medical care to survive or palliative

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Speaker 1: care if the baby born alive through abortion is going

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Speaker 1: to die. Now there's huge ethical issues just in that,

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Speaker 1: because an abortion is meant, to to put it bluntly,

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Speaker 1: to kill a baby. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: that's the aim. But as you'll hear, babies do survive

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Speaker 1: the procedure, and it's understood to be the first time,

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Speaker 1: certainly the Australian reporting. It is the first time a

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Speaker 1: midwife has spoken publicly about what happens when babies are

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Speaker 1: born alive, and Leu Adset describes herself as a conscientious

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Speaker 1: objector when it comes to providing care for women aborting

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Speaker 1: their babies, but happy to make herself available to hold

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Speaker 1: a baby born alive after an abortion. This audio, it

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Speaker 1: goes for just over a minute and it's only a

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Speaker 1: little bit of what she had to say yesterday. It

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Speaker 1: may be distressing to some of you, but midwife Luad

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Speaker 1: said giving evidence that the hearing yesterday.

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Speaker 2: To give you a first example, a mother made a

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Speaker 2: decision to a born a baby at twenty one plus

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Speaker 2: week's gestation. The process began in the morning with musicprostyl

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Speaker 2: given throughout the day. The process took all day and

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Speaker 2: the baby was only delivered during the early hours of

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Speaker 2: a night shift where skeleton staff was on duty. This

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Speaker 2: baby moved vigorously, gasp for breath and had a palpable

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Speaker 2: heart rate. To make it clear this baby was alife,

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Speaker 2: it was over four hundred grams, so the baby was

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Speaker 2: a good way. The parents of this baby did not

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Speaker 2: desire to see or hold this baby. Midwives and doctors

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Speaker 2: were left holding this little life while they continue to

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Speaker 2: provide cares for other women who were birthing and welcoming

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Speaker 2: their babies into the world. This baby boy fought for

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Speaker 2: his life for five hours before taking his final break.

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Speaker 2: This is not uncommon occurrence. These are just many examples

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Speaker 2: that occur not only in birth UITs that I work in,

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Speaker 2: but bursaries across Queensland. These accounts which I tell you,

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Speaker 2: I was either on shift or my colleagues have had

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Speaker 2: told me about their experiences. My colleagues are very often

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Speaker 2: distressed about what they've seen and participated in, as am I.

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Speaker 2: These babies deserve better, They deserve to have the same

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Speaker 2: rights that all of us human beings have.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely harrowing and luads that went on to give another

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Speaker 1: similar examples through tears. Here. In South Australia, the Marshall Government,

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Speaker 1: unexpectedly and quite unprompted by well anyone, introduced laws in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one allowing for abortion to birth, the policy

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Speaker 1: meant to apply in case of medical emergency. There are

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Speaker 1: now moves by opponents here to change South Australian laws.

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Speaker 1: Another person who gave evidence to that same Queensland Parliamentary

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Speaker 1: Committee is University of Adelaide law professor doctor Joanna Howe,

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Speaker 1: who's also campaigning for changes here. In essay, Joanna Howe

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Speaker 1: joins me, now, Joanna, good morning, good morning. That's he

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Speaker 1: It is just harrowing, isn't it? Listening to that account

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Speaker 1: and I read it this morning in the paper. But

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Speaker 1: to actually hear her deliver that, well, you just brought

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Speaker 1: to tears by it.

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Speaker 3: It was deeply distressing. I was there and there wasn't

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Speaker 3: a dry eye in the public gallery watching her give testimony.

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Speaker 3: They actually had to. I'd put out the call on

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Speaker 3: my Instagram and people can check the interview I did

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Speaker 3: with lou just before she went up at doctor Joanna

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Speaker 3: Howe Instagram and Facebook and it's there and you can

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Speaker 3: see she's really nervous. She knows her jobs on the line.

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Speaker 3: So if someone gives evidence before a parliamentary inquiry, they

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Speaker 3: people can't take a punitive action against them, so she

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Speaker 3: can't technically lose her job for this, But she has

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Speaker 3: to go back to work today, to that hospital, and

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Speaker 3: she's blown the lid on the horrific practice that babies

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Speaker 3: un literally tortured. They left there gasping for air on

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Speaker 3: metal kidney dishes or she said, which is hats, which

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Speaker 3: is like a plastic dish. And you know, she gave

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Speaker 3: an example. You played the one about the baby. That's

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Speaker 3: the vice for five hours, but she also gave evidence

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Speaker 3: of a baby just a few weeks ago. That's the

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Speaker 3: vice of three hours, you know, And it's just so

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Speaker 3: distressing for the midwives involved, for all of us listening yesterday,

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Speaker 3: it was incredibly distressing. I actually found it hard to

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Speaker 3: sleep last night now after flying back to Adelaide, just

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Speaker 3: thinking about the experience of these newborn babies who just

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Speaker 3: really deserved better. And you know, she was very brave

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Speaker 3: to call the whistle on, to blow the whistle on this.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I hope that, I really hope politicians listen,

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Speaker 3: because you know, we need protection for these babies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly seems that way. You gave evidence to

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Speaker 1: the inquiry yesterday. What did you tell them?

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Speaker 3: So there was a lot of confusion. The other side

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Speaker 3: said a couple of things. So rams Cog which is

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Speaker 3: the peak body of Obigu Wayans, they actually say this

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Speaker 3: is a non issue. First of all, they say babies

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Speaker 3: are not born alive and left to die after an abortion.

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Speaker 3: And doctor Broom, who's from Lou's own hospital, so she's

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Speaker 3: an abortionist from that hospital. She came to the enquiry

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Speaker 3: and said this doesn't happen. And so you know, the

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Speaker 3: politicians must have been really confused listening because either it's

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Speaker 3: one of them dying, one of them was telling the truth,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I think Lou, given that she put

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Speaker 3: a job on the line to say this you know,

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Speaker 3: it's probably not Lou. I've also had other midwives speak

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Speaker 3: to me and I've started interviewing them from my YouTube,

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Speaker 3: which I haven't aired yet because I have to obscure

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Speaker 3: their face and voice because they're not going to be protected.

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Speaker 3: But this is not an this is not isolated. In Queensland.

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Speaker 3: In just twenty twenty two, there were forty nine babies

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Speaker 3: born alive and left to die after an abortion. So

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Speaker 3: I talked through this. I talked to the politicians through

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Speaker 3: the data, so the numbers, which are really clear in

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Speaker 3: terms of how many babies experience this, but I also

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Speaker 3: talked them through the legal issues. So under the Public

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Speaker 3: Health Act in Queensland, a person is a sorry, a

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Speaker 3: baby is a person the minute they're expelled from the

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Speaker 3: mus you know, so the minute they're born. And yet

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Speaker 3: these babies are not being treated as people, so you know,

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Speaker 3: they don't get they don't get mandatory palliative care if

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Speaker 3: they're going to die anyway, so they don't get the

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Speaker 3: things that other babies who are wanted to get who

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Speaker 3: are born prematurely, things like you know, being wrapped and

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Speaker 3: put held in a blanket, medication to ease their distress.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're just they're gasping for air, struggling to breathe,

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Speaker 3: and it's just terrific. So I talk them through the

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Speaker 3: case of babies. Answer a little girl at the World

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Speaker 3: Brisbane and Women's Hospital twenty twenty. She was born alive

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Speaker 3: at nineteen weeks. They dumped her in an empty hospital

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Speaker 3: room and she lay there for seven minutes by herself

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Speaker 3: until she passed. You know, it's just barbaric. You wouldn't

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Speaker 3: think this this could happen in Australia. And following Lou's testimony,

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Speaker 3: this is breaking news. I'm not sure if you're aware

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Speaker 3: of it, Matthew. It's literally just been announced to have

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Speaker 3: been put on the Federal Senate motion Senator Verbet he's

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Speaker 3: from Victoria. He's just said this is this is so

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Speaker 3: upsetting hearing her testimonyes, they're seeing the data that I'm

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Speaker 3: putting in an urgent motion before the Federal Senate today.

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Speaker 3: So there'll be a vote today at four o'clock where

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Speaker 3: the Senators will have to face this urgent motion, and

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Speaker 3: the urgent motion will say that every Australian newborn deserves

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Speaker 3: equal protection under the law. They deserve a right to

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Speaker 3: medical care and to be treated as a person. And

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Speaker 3: so that's really good. All as South Australian senators, they're

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Speaker 3: going to have to show their hands, show the cards

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Speaker 3: on this, they're going to have to face this issue

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Speaker 3: and they're going to have to vote either for birth

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Speaker 3: equality or they're going to essentially say they're okay with

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Speaker 3: leaving newborn today.

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Speaker 1: What's the situation in South Australia under rail laws here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good question. So in twenty twenty one, when the

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Speaker 3: Marshall government introduced abortion up to birth and for any reason,

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Speaker 3: thankfully there was an amendment. Thankfully there was an amendment

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Speaker 3: that said if a baby survives an abortion, better be

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Speaker 3: treated no differently to any other South Australian baby. And

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Speaker 3: that amendment passed. So we have birth equality in South Australia.

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Speaker 3: This doesn't happen in South Australia as far as I'm aware,

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Speaker 3: and I look pretty closely at the data when it

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Speaker 3: comes out. And the other state that has birth equality

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Speaker 3: is New South Wales. They introduce it in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: But everywhere else, every other state and territory does not

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Speaker 3: have legislative protection, an equal protection provision for these babies.

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Speaker 3: So For example, the Northern Territory literally has in their

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Speaker 3: termination pregnancy guidelines that doctors use. It says do not

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Speaker 3: give life sustaining treatment if a live birth occurs. So

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Speaker 3: it's as explicitly, you know, leave these babies to die,

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Speaker 3: and it's really it's just terrific stuff. I think the

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Speaker 3: reason that's been allowed to continue is because most Australians

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Speaker 3: don't know but lose testimony yesterday and I went out

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Speaker 3: big with that. If you want to watch her testimony,

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Speaker 3: you can see it on my YouTube channel at doctor

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Speaker 3: Joanna how. Senator Babett is now forcing a vote on

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Speaker 3: this today in the Federal Parliament. You know, I think

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Speaker 3: things are going to shift because we are starting to

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Speaker 3: talk about it. But it's just been allowed to go

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Speaker 3: on for too long.

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Speaker 1: Why is abortion to I mean, I understand medical emergencies.

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Speaker 1: I suppose abortion to burn yep. But it would seem

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Speaker 1: to me and I'm not about to tell anyone what

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Speaker 1: to do here in terms of you know, what a

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Speaker 1: woman should do that argument, but it would seem to me,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to have an abortion, have it early,

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Speaker 1: don't leave it till the last, you know, the eighth

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Speaker 1: month for goodness sake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no medically necessary reason for a late term abortion.

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Speaker 3: So after twenty three weeks, a child is Bible and

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Speaker 3: you can do in an emergency situation. What you do

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Speaker 3: is then emergency is thearian. You'd get that baby out

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Speaker 3: within two to four hours, and you can get them

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Speaker 3: out alive. There's no need to kill them first. To

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Speaker 3: actually go through a late term abortion takes twelve to

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Speaker 3: forty eight hours. It's a long process and it's an

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Speaker 3: intentional decision to kill that child true in need or

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Speaker 3: is the jockson which has a burning sensation. So on

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Speaker 3: death Row in the US, that's how they kill people

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Speaker 3: on death row. The criminals, the rapists, you know, the murderers,

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Speaker 3: they get injected with dijoxin. But before that they're to

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Speaker 3: date it and they get pain relief and these that

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Speaker 3: doesn't happen to these babies. So from twenty three weeks on,

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Speaker 3: in a late term of abortion, and let's not forget

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Speaker 3: this has happened to forty five Australian South Australian babies

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Speaker 3: since Marshall's War passed. Forty five South Australian babies who

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Speaker 3: are perfectly healthy got injected with digoxin, experienced immense pains

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Speaker 3: and were then birth still born. That never needed to happen.

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Speaker 3: These are non emergency situations. You can just do a

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Speaker 3: C section to get these babies out alive if it

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Speaker 3: is an emergency, or you can induce them alive. You know,

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Speaker 3: you don't need to kill them first. So the whole

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Speaker 3: my body, my choice argument, it really falls down after

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Speaker 3: twenty three weeks, because you've got to get that baby out,

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Speaker 3: and you can get them out whole and alive and

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Speaker 3: give them care.

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Speaker 1: What reforms would you like to see here in South

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Speaker 1: Australia any at all?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I would like to see late tim abortion band

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Speaker 3: because there is no medically necessary reasons for it. I

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Speaker 3: would like to see these babies births alive and given care.

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Speaker 3: And I'd like to see the mother given care because

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Speaker 3: if she's going in for an early delivery instead of

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Speaker 3: a late tim abustion, she's obviously suffering and she needs support.

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Speaker 3: And I believe that we have to do that. We

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Speaker 3: have to increase the resources for these women who are vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: but we shouldn't be killing their babies after twenty three weeks.

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Speaker 3: We should just deliver them alive, send them to the

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Speaker 3: special care necessary and give those children care, face them

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Speaker 3: for adoption, and then we haven't killed anybody. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a win win situation. It's a third way really.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm looking at developing laws with politicians that

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Speaker 3: are interested around a third way so that we don't

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Speaker 3: kill the babies. We look after the mum and everybody's will.

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Speaker 1: Joanna, I really appreciate your time this morning coming on

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Speaker 1: and talking about the sushi.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Joanna How, professor of Law UNI of Adelaide, gave

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Speaker 1: testimony in Queensland yesterday. Upper House Liberal MP Nicolas Senda

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Speaker 1: Fantee has called in Nicola, good morning, good.

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Speaker 4: Morning massus factually having me and look, I just wanted

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Speaker 4: to call in to just congratulate Joanna on the really

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Speaker 4: important work that she's doing. You know, we know that

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Speaker 4: there have been a number of late term abortion since

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Speaker 4: the Termination of Pregnancy Bill passed in twenty twenty one. Mahew,

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Speaker 4: when I was in the chamber when that bill passed

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Speaker 4: and I led the charge along with a number of

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Speaker 4: my colleagues to try and stop that late term abortion.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think it is a tragedy that piece

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Speaker 4: of legislation of that particular portion of that legislation in

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Speaker 4: terms of late term abortion past the chamber, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I think we need to be we need to be

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Speaker 4: listening to Joanna, We need to be listening to the

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Speaker 4: voices of those mothers. And you know, I think at

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Speaker 4: the end of the day, anything that we can do

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Speaker 4: to try and claw back that late term abortion would

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Speaker 4: absolutely be welcomed by you know, a lot of people

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Speaker 4: in the community.

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Speaker 1: It was a conscience vote, as I recall, But what

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Speaker 1: reason you know, you were in government, What reason did

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Speaker 1: the Premier of the Attorney General, Vicky Chapman, who introduced

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Speaker 1: the legislation give for it.

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Speaker 4: Look, you know I had numerous conversations with either of them,

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Speaker 4: and you know, look that's probably a question to them,

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Speaker 4: to be honest. I certainly didn't get that answer out

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Speaker 4: of them, and you know, really that's a question for

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Speaker 4: them at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: All Right, I appreciate you calling in.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, No thanks Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Thanks having Nicole sende f Anti upper House liberal MP

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Speaker 1: on the issue of late term abortion. So certainly a

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Speaker 1: distressing situation. If you heard the audio played about ten

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Speaker 1: or so minutes ago, midwife Lou Ad said in Queensland,

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Speaker 1: speaking to a parliamentary committee there in their state parliament,

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Speaker 1: about late term abortions and babies born alive. It's just

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Speaker 1: absolutely horrific.