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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. A few months ago, I had a conversation

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Speaker 1: with a person I have a great deal of respect

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Speaker 1: for my guests. Served twenty seven years in the Victorian Police,

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Speaker 1: working in the homicide Squad, Armed robbery and specialist squads.

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Speaker 1: His area of expertise was sexual offenses and child abuse investigations.

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Speaker 1: Since leaving the police, he's set up an investigation company

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Speaker 1: specializing in AI investigations. He has been a previous guest

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Speaker 1: on my catch killers, but has never spoken in detail

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Speaker 1: about what he is going to speak about today. See

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Speaker 1: today's guest. Graham Simpendorfer was a victim of child's sexual abuse.

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Speaker 1: It was a secret he held for years, and it

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Speaker 1: was not until he left the police that he decided

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Speaker 1: he was going to try to make the perpetrator accountable

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Speaker 1: for what he did to him as a young boy.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into this episode, I need to note

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Speaker 1: that this conversation was recorded before Graham's case went to trial.

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Speaker 1: In the time since this recording, Graham's specific case went

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Speaker 1: to court and resulted in an acquittal. However, the same

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Speaker 1: individual also faced trials over a number of other historical

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Speaker 1: sexual offenses against children. He pleaded not guilty to all charges.

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Speaker 1: He has found guilty of sexual offenses relating to four victims.

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Speaker 1: The defendant maintains his innocence and has filed the motion

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Speaker 1: of appeal against those convictions. But this is Graham's story.

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Speaker 1: It's very raw, and it's a story Graham wants told

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Speaker 1: in the hope it will help others who has suffered

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Speaker 1: at the hands of sex offenders. As uncomfortable as telling

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Speaker 1: this story is, it's important. These things are discussed Graham,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on I Catch Killers, My pleasure, also

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Speaker 1: trusting me for helping you tell your story about what

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to come and talk

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Speaker 2: and be a little bit vulnerable and get some things

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Speaker 2: out there that hopefully can help some of your listeners.

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Speaker 1: I think it was probably two or three years time

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Speaker 1: goes quickly that you came on here as a guest

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Speaker 1: on I Catch Killers, And after we finish recording, we

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Speaker 1: caught up for byte DeWit and two ex cops always

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Speaker 1: something to talk about, And it was during that conversation

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Speaker 1: that you revealed to me that you'd been a victim

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Speaker 1: of child sexual abuse. And I thought two X cops

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Speaker 1: were going to talk about all the bad guys we

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Speaker 1: locked up or could have locked up, or should have

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Speaker 1: locked up, and so sort of a change of pace.

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Speaker 1: But when you told me about it, it really sort

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Speaker 1: of hit me. I realized how difficult it must be

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Speaker 1: for you opening up about being someone who was sexually

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Speaker 1: abused as a child. So thanks for trusting me in

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Speaker 1: the first place, and thanks for coming.

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Speaker 2: On here my pleasure, Gary, and I remember that that

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Speaker 2: day very well. And I think after spending the day

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Speaker 2: with you, you got a real good read on who

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Speaker 2: you can trust. And obviously with everything I've been through,

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Speaker 2: you get a really good lens as well as your

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Speaker 2: policing lens. But yeah, you're definitely a safe place, and

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Speaker 2: I knew we could have a really meaningful conversation around

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Speaker 2: what had happened. And you know, I'd hoped one day

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Speaker 2: that we might be able to have this chat to

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Speaker 2: I guess talk about these things, and the more we

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Speaker 2: talk about it, the less it's a secret and the

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Speaker 2: less that these predators have a chance to exist in

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Speaker 2: So I really appreciate the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: You had made the decision that you wanted the person

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Speaker 1: responsible for abusing you to be bought before the courts

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Speaker 1: and made accountable for his actions. And it's been a

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Speaker 1: long process.

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Speaker 2: For Yeah, it has look at a real rollercoaster. I

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Speaker 2: think we're around the four year mark from when I

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Speaker 2: walked into the police station and made me a statement.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, rural highs and lows, especially seeing I guess

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Speaker 2: the narrative that some sexual assault cases get in the

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Speaker 2: media and how that has really impacted on me. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, because I can't imagine what it would

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Speaker 2: be like to go through this whilst being played out

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Speaker 2: in the media at the same time. Obviously, my matter

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Speaker 2: has been quite covert in regards to that, but to

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Speaker 2: see some people have to go through that as well

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Speaker 2: is challenging on its own, let alone just the whole process,

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Speaker 2: the whole judicial system. But yeah, it's been been quite

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Speaker 2: The journey hasn't always been greatness, some pretty shit times

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Speaker 2: a lot of times, but an overwhelming and resounding part

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Speaker 2: of it has been the amount that I've had to

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Speaker 2: tell people for the first time how supportive people were.

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Speaker 2: I didn't expect that. I mean, I guess you look

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Speaker 2: with it with an external lens and you think, well,

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Speaker 2: of course they're going to be supported. There the people

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Speaker 2: you care about. But there's just this thing inside me

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Speaker 2: that was, like, you know, whether it was shame or

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Speaker 2: guilt or or what, I'm not exactly sure yet, but

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Speaker 2: it was just just do I tell anyone? And I'd

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Speaker 2: held on it for that long that I just didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to approach that conversation, let alone go to

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Speaker 2: the police and tell them your story.

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Speaker 1: So many layers that it would have been difficult for

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Speaker 1: you the process and come to terms we've would imagined,

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Speaker 1: just the fact that there's a benef from being the

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Speaker 1: police officer because you understand the system. But police, we

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Speaker 1: were the avenging angels, go after the bad people, and

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Speaker 1: we don't see ourselves. Has been the victims of these predators.

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Speaker 1: So that must have played on your mind as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the hardest I was trying to say to my

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Speaker 2: brother the other day, the hardest investigation I've ever worked

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Speaker 2: on as the one where I'm the victim because of

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Speaker 2: exactly that I know the system. I know that delay

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Speaker 2: in these matters that you accused to do deliberately to

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Speaker 2: make your run out of puff, to exhaust you. And

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Speaker 2: there's been times I've thought, you know what I'm done

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Speaker 2: war conutrition. Yeah, yeah, And that is a tactic. I've

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Speaker 2: seen it. I've worked in the sex offense child abuse

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Speaker 2: area for a while and it become too much for

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Speaker 2: that reason, it was too triggering. But to see those

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Speaker 2: tactics used, and in my case there's been delay and

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Speaker 2: delay and delay as typically does and that's just hard

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Speaker 2: as it is. But you're right, having the lenses a cop,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know what the little things are, you

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Speaker 2: know what the court process is meant to be, you

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Speaker 2: know what the victim's charter is meant to be. Blake

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Speaker 2: that the investigator has been incredible, he's an amazing well

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Speaker 2: I can say young man because he's long younger than me,

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Speaker 2: but he's been amazing. But again, you know that there's

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Speaker 2: certain challenges that he's had to deal with and trying

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Speaker 2: to manage me as a victim that's also a cop.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Paul Bugget, I can imagine you'd be a difficult

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Speaker 1: one in there. You'd be second guessing what needs to

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Speaker 1: be done, what should be done, And that was an

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Speaker 1: air of expertise that in your policing career. You're twenty

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Speaker 1: seven years in the Victorian Police homicide and other squads,

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Speaker 1: but you specialized as a child protection officer sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and child protection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I guess that's how all this started

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Speaker 2: to unpack for me. Even though what happened to me

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Speaker 2: when I was thirteen fourteen years old, I obviously clearly

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Speaker 2: put it away somewhere that I didn't want to deal

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Speaker 2: with it, and I'm not sure how much I should

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Speaker 2: go into but I just had to put it somewhere

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Speaker 2: where I just didn't want to remember and eventually as

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Speaker 2: an adult when I finished school, I moved down to

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Speaker 2: the Cops in ninety four and I just had to

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Speaker 2: get out of town because it was a small country

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Speaker 2: town that I lived in and I just had to leave.

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Speaker 2: I just had to get out. And I didn't really

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Speaker 2: know why, because I had options to go to New

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Speaker 2: South Pole or q Pole, where my brother was at

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Speaker 2: the time, but I just wanted to go completely the

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Speaker 2: other direction and get out. I look back now and Goo,

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Speaker 2: you were just running. You just wanted to run from

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Speaker 2: it all and just not think about it again.

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Speaker 1: Gives you perspective on them. Yeah, well, we've got a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack. But I just want to draw your

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Speaker 1: attention to something. But I'm aware of that doing the

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Speaker 1: recent ted X talk, very powerful talk that you gave.

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Speaker 1: You spoke about your own personal mantra, and this is

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Speaker 1: what it was. Would the boy I once was look

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Speaker 1: up to the man I am today? I read that

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Speaker 1: when prepping for this and following some conversations from you.

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Speaker 1: That's really powerful. Do you want to just unpack what

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Speaker 1: you meant by that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I actually can't put a point on

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Speaker 2: where that come from. For me. I think it's been

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Speaker 2: something in this journey of the last four or five years,

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Speaker 2: even beyond that, something that I constantly would say to

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Speaker 2: myself that am I being the man I am today

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Speaker 2: or the man I am now? Am I someone the

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Speaker 2: younger version of me would go to for advice, trust,

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Speaker 2: disclose sexual assault, or just say they're struggling? Am I

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Speaker 2: being that type of man? Because the definition of a

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Speaker 2: man these days, well, what we grew up with was,

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Speaker 2: you know, don't show emotion, don't show you vulnerable, don't

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Speaker 2: say you're struggling, just block it all out. And I

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Speaker 2: don't want that for my kids or all the people

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Speaker 2: I care about around me. So it's about being a

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Speaker 2: role model, whether it's to my own kids, or mates kids,

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Speaker 2: or just in general as a human that am I

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Speaker 2: someone that anyone at that age would look up to?

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Speaker 2: Or am I being someone that my mates might aspire

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Speaker 2: to as well. I've had a few conversations with people that,

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Speaker 2: let's say, you know, you've actually you know, one comment

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Speaker 2: you gave me, or one little lift you gave me,

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Speaker 2: one piece of inspiration you gave me change my life.

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Speaker 2: I had to mate do that with just his physical

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Speaker 2: well being. Now as you're dedicated to your training, and

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Speaker 2: you know you've helped me in that regard. So just

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Speaker 2: the mantar is about am I being or conducting myself

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Speaker 2: in a way that the younger version of me would

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Speaker 2: have thought out, either as a mentor or as a

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Speaker 2: safe place.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a powerful mantra to have, and given what

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Speaker 1: you've been through, you would have seen that. I've certainly

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Speaker 1: seen that people that have been sexually abused as children

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Speaker 1: quite often it sets the pathway for their life of

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Speaker 1: chaos and suppressed trauma and anger and dysfunction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And for all intents and purposes, you've channeled your life

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Speaker 1: working in the police, doing good work and all. That's

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Speaker 1: a full credit to It's something that you've managed to

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Speaker 1: And I don't understand the pain that you've been through

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Speaker 1: and the confusion you've been through. And it always it

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Speaker 1: upsets me when people talk about the shame when they've

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Speaker 1: been preyed on by these predators. And virtually every person

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Speaker 1: I speak to that's been a victim of child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: they mentioned the word shame.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, And look, and I don't want to in

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Speaker 2: my eyes at all for a second sexual soul against

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Speaker 2: women that's horrific, and I've seen some really bad cases,

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Speaker 2: but for me, I felt shame in that. You know,

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Speaker 2: here I am a young boy going through puberty and

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Speaker 2: being abused, and the shame confusion, I guess, but the

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Speaker 2: biggest overwhelming emotion for me at that time was no

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Speaker 2: one would believe me. Who's going to believe that? That's just

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Speaker 2: so unheard of that you who was ever going to

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Speaker 2: take that on and go, okay, we need to do that.

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Speaker 2: Today it's completely different.

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Speaker 1: It was a different world. Wasn't he suck it up

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Speaker 1: and deal with it? And yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: But even when I was making the decision to report

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Speaker 2: or not or come out and do anything about it,

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Speaker 2: there's still an element of that shame. And after everything

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Speaker 2: I've been through in policing and encouraging victims, I've sat

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Speaker 2: in rooms and tried to help convince victims to give

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Speaker 2: me their statement. I'll put this person in jail.

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Speaker 1: Did the was a hypocrisy?

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Speaker 2: Not at all? It was weeks of conflict, Yeah, weeks

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Speaker 2: and weeks of conflict. Do I don't know? But also,

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Speaker 2: you know, this asshole shouldn't get away with it? But

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Speaker 2: what does that look like? What does that mean? And

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Speaker 2: with hindsight, it's been a hell of a time. Gary

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Speaker 2: four years.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine because as police, we think we're

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Speaker 1: attuned and we've got the emotional intelligence. Depending on the

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Speaker 1: type of the police officers you are, you see the

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Speaker 1: suffering of people that have been victims of crime and

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Speaker 1: the whole range of things. But until it actually impacts

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Speaker 1: on you, you don't know unless you've walked in that

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Speaker 1: path one percent.

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Speaker 2: And to accept the fact that my role here as

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Speaker 2: a victim was a different one was a challenging one.

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Speaker 1: And that's I think what I say as a police officer.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is, we put ourselves up there, probably

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Speaker 1: on the pedestal too high where the avenging angels. We

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Speaker 1: protect victims, we protect.

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Speaker 2: The week exactly. And that's what part of my decision

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Speaker 2: making process to pursue the legal avenues. And again, Paul Blake,

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Speaker 2: that caught me off. Think I just about had an

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Speaker 2: investigation plan or planned out for the poor fellow, but

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Speaker 2: had to step back because it's not my case. I'm

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Speaker 2: just one year.

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Speaker 1: You were trying to run your investigation one piece.

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Speaker 2: But look, I made the decision. I think I'd read

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Speaker 2: it or seen seen in the media that this person

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Speaker 2: had been charged by the New South Wales Police and

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Speaker 2: at that stage I think it was only the one victim,

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Speaker 2: and I thought that's the time, so to go back.

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Speaker 2: I think it had been about a couple of years

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Speaker 2: earlier than that that I'd been retriggered and retraumatized from

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Speaker 2: a course that brought it all back for me. I

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Speaker 2: was actually on the sex offense child of his investigator's

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Speaker 2: course with Victoria Police and one of the lectures was

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Speaker 2: around grooming behaviors. An amazing man by name of Patrick

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Speaker 2: Tidmarsh was the lecturer and he was teaching us around

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Speaker 2: the different grooming behaviors that these predators use. And he

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Speaker 2: described to an absolute tea what happened to me, and

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Speaker 2: it just hit me.

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Speaker 1: Had you acknowledged, had you pushed it down?

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Speaker 2: Yep?

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Speaker 1: To put it in a box, do not open?

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Speaker 2: It was gone, and it was gone that brought it back. Yep.

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Speaker 2: I've had to do a lot of work, a lot

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Speaker 2: of understanding around how the mind and trauma works, to

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Speaker 2: how the hell is that even possible. We've been to

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Speaker 2: that many deaths and we've seen that many sadly, that

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Speaker 2: many dead people that I don't think I can remember

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Speaker 2: every single one, but I know it is there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because you put that trauma somewhere, and something as big

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Speaker 2: as this childhood trauma, obviously i'd locked away, and through counseling,

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Speaker 2: I've been able to better understand that that's okay. So

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Speaker 2: there was an element of that shame that why didn't

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Speaker 2: not do anything about it? Because the person I am

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Speaker 2: now is strong enough to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: But at that stage it was survival.

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Speaker 2: I was a kid. As a kids, a lot of guilt,

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Speaker 2: you know, if I'd done something, would other people have

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Speaker 2: been helped and not abused as well? So there's a lot,

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Speaker 2: a lot of to unpack there. And I'd seen that

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Speaker 2: this one person I don't even know who it is,

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Speaker 2: and I still don't know, and that's the way it

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Speaker 2: has to be. But whoever that was gave me the

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Speaker 2: courage I'm going to go with you. Yep, it's time

300
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Speaker 2: for me because I've been dealing with that wave of

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Speaker 2: it hit me for a couple of years and it

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Speaker 2: disclosed to Patrick and disclosed to my wife at the

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Speaker 2: time what had happened because it was overwhelming. I was

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Speaker 2: a mess.

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Speaker 1: I can just I can just picture it. What stage

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Speaker 1: in your career was this?

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Speaker 2: Were were I was officer in charge of the Sex

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Speaker 2: Offense Child Abuse Unit w Donga and even then I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize the connection, but I was drawn to because

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Speaker 2: we were actually there had been a Royal commission or

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Speaker 2: a massive amount of work into the response to domestic

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Speaker 2: balance and sexual abuse. So they started the new squads

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Speaker 2: of sexual offense and child abuse investigation teams across the

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Speaker 2: state and I just went, yep, I want to lead

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Speaker 2: one of those teams as a detective.

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Speaker 1: So do you think you were driven to specialize in

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Speaker 1: that field because of what happened to you? Did you

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Speaker 1: understand what hindsight?

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Speaker 2: Hindsight?

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Speaker 1: But you didn't at the time. No, I didn't think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is my way of getting.

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Speaker 2: It was a challenge because it was a new unit

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Speaker 2: was setting up things that was sort of it was

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Speaker 2: sort of new, but it was also merging. Back in

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Speaker 2: the day our community policing squad would take the statements

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Speaker 2: of victims but then give the files to the detectives,

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Speaker 2: where this was a new model of one stop shop. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because it was, and now I get it's just too

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Speaker 2: traumatizing to have one person take your statement and you

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Speaker 2: believe in and your trust in, and that's your police officer.

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Speaker 2: To then go to a detective that's got thirty other

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Speaker 2: cases on their books. It was a pretty poor model,

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Speaker 2: but that's how it was. So the advice was, let's

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Speaker 2: put it all into one stop shop at a soccer

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Speaker 2: or a sex offense child abuse investigation team. And the

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Speaker 2: challenge for me, let's start that team. Let's make a difference.

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Speaker 2: Let's really give this a good go. So I had

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Speaker 2: to go then do the qualifications of specialist child witness, interviewing,

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Speaker 2: understanding events, behaviors, and grooming. And it was the grooming

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Speaker 2: piece that unlocked it.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in that because I've spoken to people that

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Speaker 1: had talked about this suppressed and it's come back, and

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Speaker 1: that that was you weren't thinking about it before then,

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Speaker 1: and then that's come back. It's deep, isn't it. It's

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Speaker 1: the deep psychology of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's been a lot to try and unpack

347
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Speaker 2: and then what to do with that because it was out,

348
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Speaker 2: it was unlocked.

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Speaker 1: And did it come back like a vivid memory? Oh yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Was back in his lounge room, time and place. It

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Speaker 2: was horrific and you know, it got quite emotional, and

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Speaker 2: then trying to keep it together because I'm like, shit,

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Speaker 2: everyone here is going to figure this out and then

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Speaker 2: I'm going to have to tell someone. I was just

355
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Speaker 2: trying to process and everything that goes with that, that

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Speaker 2: that goes with you know, well, this is the bloody

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Speaker 2: job I'm doing. Now, how am I going to deal

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Speaker 2: with it? Who do I tell? So, you know, I told,

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Speaker 2: told the lecturer and told my wife at the time,

360
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Speaker 2: and then eventually went home after that course, were they shocked?

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Speaker 2: I can't remember Patrick's reaction now, but yeah, obviously my

362
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Speaker 2: wife at the time was just she was in the

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Speaker 2: same unit, so she had to doubly go through everything.

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Speaker 2: This is her world of helping victims and now all

365
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Speaker 2: of a sudden at your partner. But she was just amazing,

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Speaker 2: just incredible to support man. Basically just empowered me to

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to do however you want to do

368
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Speaker 2: with this, but we've got you. So that was amazing.

369
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Speaker 2: But you know, the decision to then report to the

370
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Speaker 2: cops come after a couple of years later seeing someone

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Speaker 2: come forward.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so from that lecture and talking about grooming, that's

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Speaker 1: when it's hit you. Yeah, this is something I've had

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Speaker 1: suppressed and then you told your wife about it from there,

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Speaker 1: but then you still weren't sure what you're going to

376
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Speaker 1: do at that stage.

377
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, because i'd seen both sides. I'd seen yeah, sorry,

378
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 2: not both sides at that stage. I'd seen the judicial side.

379
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Speaker 1: Whether I want to put myself through this and.

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Speaker 2: It's not pretty. I've got to be honest, and I

381
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Speaker 2: guess a lot of the cops will be honest too.

382
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Speaker 2: It's not it's not pretty. We're trying to get encouraged

383
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Speaker 2: people to report.

384
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Speaker 1: And you know that there's going to be a statement

385
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Speaker 1: required and then it's going to be going to court.

386
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Speaker 1: Can I ask and only talk about what you're comfortable

387
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Speaker 1: talking about? What happened and how that person, the offender,

388
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Speaker 1: came into your life or what happened. You were thirteen

389
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Speaker 1: at the time.

390
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I was at school thirteen, and I

391
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 2: was quite a talented gymnast. So I was through gymnastics

392
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 2: that this connection was made. Yeah, And he groomed me

393
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 2: and others and even my parents because they trusted him. So,

394
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 2: you know, groomed everyone, groomed the town. But look, there

395
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: was a lot of innuendo and rumors around. I remember

396
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,439
Speaker 2: through school and at time, but back then it just

397
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 2: wasn't ever dealt with thought, it wasn't ever proed further.

398
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: And that's the sad thing. Now, I think that if

399
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,919
Speaker 2: some of the adults at the time maybe questioned a

400
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: bit more what could have been differently done?

401
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 1: Too often that I hear Graham, when things like this

402
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 1: come out, everyone goes, oh, I suspected that person. We

403
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 1: all have to as a society take a little bit

404
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 1: of responsibility for the way blind eyes are turned to

405
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,920
Speaker 1: that if there's it's given you an icky feeling about it,

406
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,679
Speaker 1: generally there's a reason for it.

407
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've spoken to so you know, many people

408
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: and friends that are mums, and they'll have a conversation

409
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: as a cop, they don't realize that I've got this pass,

410
00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:58,679
Speaker 2: but just as a cop, they go, look, I'm not

411
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm just a bit off about this neighbor or this guy.

412
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 2: And one of the examples, okay, was she was telling

413
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 2: me it's just her young daughter I think's nine or ten,

414
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 2: and was just off about him. I'm like, you're a mum, YEA,

415
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: trust your gut.

416
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Speaker 1: I think that's great advice.

417
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 2: Just trust your gut. Doesn't mean you have to accuse

418
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 2: them of anything, but just have that lens of what

419
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 2: if they are if they are setting things up or grooming.

420
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: And then she says, oh, ye, he's been buying a present.

421
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: So I went hard, too far, no, too completely inappropriate

422
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Speaker 2: for a neighbor to be buying gifts. He's grooming her.

423
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 2: Cut it off right now, and thankfully did. But you know,

424
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 2: if that's as simple as what it is to encourage parents,

425
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 2: moms and dads to go. If your guts off, as

426
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 2: you say, people go, I had a feeling about that

427
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you have to go and accuse them or

428
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 2: runder the police. And I think this person's but protect.

429
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 1: Them, protect them as best you can. And it's that

430
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 1: person that there's an adults barbecue in the backyard and

431
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: there's one person off playing with all the kids in

432
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Speaker 1: the back.

433
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a bit strange, that's right.

434
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Speaker 1: Why is that grown man down there wrestling with kids.

435
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 2: The whole time? That's right, And that's the only focus,

436
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,239
Speaker 2: And your instinct will tell you. Yeah, so you know

437
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 2: you don't let your kids get the toilet on their own? Yeah,

438
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: you know, where are they always buddy.

439
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: Up with this person? Who offended. What was your relationship like,

440
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 1: So it was a type relationship to start with, and

441
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: somewhere you're looking up to getting advice from and a

442
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 1: real breach of breach of trust as well. I would

443
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: imagine they're huge.

444
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 2: It was a confident at the time because as I said,

445
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 2: there was a lot of rumors around it. So yeah,

446
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: it's an absolute breach of trust. And sadly now as

447
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 2: I know, it was happening before me, and it happened

448
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: after me, So there's a significant amount of guild about

449
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 2: not coming forward but understanding that for men, I think

450
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: it's around thirty two years or more before before I disclose,

451
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 2: which we all know is part of that getting back

452
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 2: to that doesn't get talked about it.

453
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm just clarifying that because that's a figure that I

454
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: find that astounding. How long it takes before the people

455
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: who have been sexually abused as Charles disclose.

456
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 2: It's frightening, isn't it. Yeah, And that's the scary thing

457
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 2: and for me to understand that, and I guess for

458
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: full transpiracy. So I'm now on the board of the

459
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: Center Against Violence, so I see a lot of this

460
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 2: data now because I'm just passionate about it, so I'm

461
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: happy to volunteer my time as a victim survivor. But

462
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: it's one in five boys and one in three women

463
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: that have experienced child sexual abuse. Everyone goes one in

464
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: three women a lot. Yet that is so wrong, and

465
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: we get it and we understand that, but everyone's really

466
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: shocked about one in five boys, but no, hardly anyone's reporting.

467
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: So I guess I want to try and change that

468
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: stigma by telling my story. And if you ask someone

469
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: that has had this or a similar experience in your past,

470
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: you can't do it on your own.

471
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: When it first started, was it more than one occasion?

472
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, multiple?

473
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: And what's initiated that stopped me?

474
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: For the best I can remember was there's a couple

475
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: of times where it had happened, and you know, a

476
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: court's like you, you've got to prove exactly. So look,

477
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 2: there was multiple times, but there's only a couple that

478
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: I could go, right, yeah, that's right, But for me,

479
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: there was I remember thinking at one point when it

480
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: was happening that I just can't be alone with him.

481
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: I just can't get myself in a position where I'm

482
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: alone with him. So I thought I'll make sure that

483
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: there's people around. And then on one occasion it was

484
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: offending happened more there's still people in the room, and oh,

485
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: this is fucked. It's not going to stop. So I

486
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: gave away a sport, just completely withdrawal from the sport

487
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 2: and get out. And I talked to some family now

488
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 2: and then my brother and when I had to tell

489
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: him only recently that happened, and he's like, we wondered

490
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 2: why you gave it away? It all makes sense now,

491
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: like there was clear signs you would winning gold medals left,

492
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: right and center and just gave it away and we

493
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 2: just figured you're just done with it, lost interest. No,

494
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: I was protecting myself because no one else was.

495
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: How did the offend the play with your mind? In

496
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: terms of date you tell anyone, and the youth the

497
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: guilt they put on the victim invariably.

498
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, in my case, there wasn't any of that. I

499
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 2: think it was inferred. It was just that power relationship

500
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: that was there, and it was just almost I was

501
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 2: so young to not all, how am I ever going

502
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 2: to accuse an adult of this? And then you you

503
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: try and justify, oh, it's not that bad. Classic victimology

504
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: isn't it. No, it's not that bad, but you know,

505
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,239
Speaker 2: just having to withdraw myself from it all. But there

506
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: was never any you telling on your own trouble. It

507
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: was just all inferred and basically because you're always on

508
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: your own, no one's going to believe you. But that

509
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: struggle for me of going, well, you know, gymnastics, I've

510
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 2: done a lot of reading and research around that. There

511
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 2: has been unfortunately a reasonably higher than average normal amount

512
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: of predators in that sport compared to others because they've

513
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: got the excuse of going hands on and the excuse

514
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: I I've got to save them. They don't fall on

515
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 2: their head, you know, come.

516
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: On, there's a vulnerability to the kids of the yeah

517
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: training people.

518
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: And there's been a massive acquiring wa gymnastics in regards

519
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: to that and the culture there and different things, and

520
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: that was sort of around my time, so I don't

521
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: know whether that was something that you know, there was

522
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: this particular sport and excuse for people to get hands on.

523
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: And that lends itself to you know, if you're going

524
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: the way on the trips, feeding and trips and all that,

525
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: it's a perfect environment for predator because they are predators,

526
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: aren't they They're not there in the sport because that's

527
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: the passion. They're in there because it's the vulnerability of

528
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: the people and the access.

529
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: Well, in hindsight just grubs. So you know, for me,

530
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: there wasn't that threat, but it still was enough for

531
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: me not to say anything because I just didn't feel

532
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: that I could go to anyone in my world that

533
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 2: would believe.

534
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: Me and that like you look back and I'd say sad,

535
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 1: But it's not sad, It's understandable. I can I'm just

536
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: picturing myself. You don't know what the world's about, you

537
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: don't know who the trust you find in your way,

538
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: it was someone that you've trusted and they have abused

539
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: that trust in the most tolerable way. Who do you tell?

540
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: And as a boy, I would imagine the embarrassment. How

541
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: did you let that happen? Come across?

542
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: Huge? Yeah, But for me, I'm like, well, how do

543
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: I come out with all this? There's so many relationships

544
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: that are intertwined in this. How am I going to

545
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: prove it? And it's that vulnerablieve it's one on one

546
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: and fast forward to court and you go, what's my

547
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: evidence against is how do you get beyond reasonable doubt

548
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: when it's one word versus the other, who's more believable?

549
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: So it's a tough ass, but look at some you know,

550
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 2: it just come to that point where I saw someone

551
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: else take that first step, and I don't know who

552
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: it is, and I'll always be forever grateful because had

553
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: that person not come forward, I probably wouldn't have not

554
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: on my own. And that's someone who knows the system.

555
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 2: And that's probably the reason why what.

556
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: In the environment you work like working in that environment.

557
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: You've seen it from both sides now, But that courage

558
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: to come forward and what you've got to do. It's

559
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: all well and good for us to sit here and

560
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: say come forward and tell the police. Then you go

561
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: to provide statements. You've got to relive it, and then

562
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: you've got the pressure of the court. You've got the

563
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: pressure of recalling something that you've suppressed for so long,

564
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: and the attention to detail. And I know the police

565
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: would be pushing for where did that happen? What was

566
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: he wearing? All that type of information? How did you

567
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: find that experience?

568
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: I found it clinical because that was my world. I

569
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: knew what the police would need and I rang a

570
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: mate who was actually at the Ugby police. I rang

571
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: him and said, I aim, I saw in the paper

572
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: this person's been charged. He's oh, yeah, you know, you

573
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: have the usual banter. I'm it, well, I want to

574
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: make a statement against him too, and he's like, oh,

575
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 2: fuck symph, I'm so sorry, And that first reaction from him,

576
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that happened to you. What do you

577
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: want to do were we're here with you if you

578
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: want to do it, just dealt with it perfectly from

579
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: a victim's point of view, but for him as well,

580
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: you know, we were colleagues, were locking people up on

581
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: the border together. But I had left the cops by

582
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: this stage, and I think that was a big factor

583
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: that i'd left and exited the organization, that I could

584
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: now deal with it without additional questions or embarrass or

585
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: shame as well.

586
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: Let's explore that a bit, because I understand the culture

587
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: of policing and that. But you'd think if in any environment,

588
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: you'd be safe in that environment.

589
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: So break that down for I'd love to say that

590
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: you could be, but look, I've got to be honest here.

591
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: The amount of times when a job's coming in the

592
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: morning of a rape of and I or a sexual assault,

593
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: and you know, nine point nine times out of ten

594
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: it's a woman, and you get some of the detectives

595
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: in the room that'll you know, what's the real story here?

596
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: I used to it. It upset me and offended me

597
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: to the point where I just immediately removed that person

598
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: from the case. We don't have an open mind, you're

599
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: out and did not hide that fact. That's how I

600
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: felt as the boss. So you know, for me to

601
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: come forward and tell my story, I just couldn't be

602
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: living in and around and operating every day in that

603
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: judgment of some of the culture that was there. Whether

604
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: it's still there or not, I'm not part of it.

605
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: I hope it's starting to go. And again that's another

606
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: reason why I want to tell my story. I hopefully

607
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: influence the future investigators by telling my story. And I

608
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: could tell straight away which cop I could tell. And

609
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: when you're the investigator sitting across from a victim and

610
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: you're only getting part of the story, that's so natural.

611
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: But people that don't understand is that people will ask, well,

612
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: why don't you just tell me the whole lot in

613
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: one statement? Because I'm working out if I can trust you, yeah, yeah,

614
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: and I can I tell you the whole lot right now.

615
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: Looking at it from a victim's point of view, How

616
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: are you disclosed?

617
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's part of the psychology of you know,

618
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: victim disclosures and how you go about that process, because

619
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: you're not going to get everything from A to Z

620
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: in one sitting. You're just not Because I'm testing, is

621
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: this the right cop I can deal with, this is

622
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: the right counselor, But I can deal with We get

623
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: told all the time if it's the wrong counselor try

624
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: someone else, and you'd like to think you get the

625
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: same service per investigator, but sometimes it's just unexplained, but

626
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: it's just the wrong connection. I was fortunate enough to

627
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: get Blake and young fella and straight away I just

628
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: five minutes with him up.

629
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: Ye.

630
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the right guy. And you know, I able

631
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: to break it down as best I could from Ada's

632
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: it because I'd made my mind up by that stage.

633
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: But I've sat in the room with so many victims

634
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: and I wonder now whether they sense the same in

635
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: me right right, Because I can generally in the conversation

636
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: over the last few years with people I know that

637
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: I have disclosed to I get a sense. I think

638
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: I can see it in you as well. I think

639
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: something's happened to you. Now, whether they choose to tell

640
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: me or not one thing. But as soon as I

641
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: open up and explain a little bit about mine, it's

642
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: almost a bit of cat and mouse and it's all

643
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: this happened to me. But I'm finding now it's just

644
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: easy to come out. I can have more of an

645
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: impact by just telling my story. And already I've had

646
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: some people go people I didn't expect to go that

647
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: that actually happened to me too. Graham.

648
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's about creating that comfortable space for the

649
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: person to talk about. There's not going to be any judgment.

650
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: You talk, and you mentioned so many others hang on

651
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: to that shame and you know I could have done

652
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: this or should have done this, and it frustrates me,

653
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: Like I just wanted to say, there's no shame in it.

654
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: Your victims of crime, and not just in child sexual abuse.

655
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: So many times victims of crime blame themselves for it.

656
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: It's not their fault, it's the perpetrator. Did you make

657
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: at the age thirteen and fourteen? So how long did

658
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: it go on for.

659
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: I can't put a time on it loo months.

660
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: Did you make a conscious decision? Did you just okay,

661
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: I'm never going to think about this again. Did you

662
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: consider telling your parents, your brother and all that. Did

663
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: you just make a conscious decision. I'm putting this aside.

664
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: I'm not going to mention that. I'm not going to

665
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: think about it. Is that how you dealt with it?

666
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: I think so. At one point, I do recall looking

667
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 2: to tell my oldest brother. Yes, he was my person,

668
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: and you know, to the point where I didn't feel

669
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: safe in different places. So occasionally I would just be

670
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: upset of an evening or a nighttime and just couldn't

671
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: sleep and just upsetting. You can I just sleep on

672
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: your floor to feel safe?

673
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: How old real?

674
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: He was, my oldest brother. He was five years older

675
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: than me for five years old, And yeah, that whole

676
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: time was just a big blur, really, but.

677
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: It was further and further and not feeling safe, and.

678
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, sleeping on your older brother's floor, and then the

679
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: shame that goes with that. Don't tell anyone, don't tell

680
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: mom and dad that I need to come in here.

681
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: And I don't know what he thought, but something in

682
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: me just said I'll just just move on. There was

683
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: no definitive moment I can't recall, but it was just

684
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: you're removed from that person now, so you say it's

685
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: not going to happen again. You've learnt. Just get on

686
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: my life as if it never happened.

687
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: It sounds like you had a good family around you.

688
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: Do you think that was so poorly for you, even

689
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: though you're suffering all this on your own? Was that stability?

690
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: We've got a great family, caring, hard working, loving family,

691
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: But that that changed me and my sense of safety.

692
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: So you know, from then, probably not as close to

693
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: my parents as what I would have.

694
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: Liked come withdrawn.

695
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything everything just went insula. You know,

696
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: I've had to do with myself. I'll get on with it, Noel,

697
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: I'll do with education myself. I'll do with my career myself,

698
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: and I moved away and just separate it. Thankfully, the

699
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: last few years we've all become a lot closer through

700
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: to some other circumstances. But it's only four weeks ago.

701
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: I tell Mom and Dad for the first time, and

702
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: how was that?

703
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: You're not?

704
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: Could not? Could you know? And had to tell them

705
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: because of you know, you're going to read about this

706
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: in the media. You're going to you're going to see

707
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: me talking about it, and so difficult for them. I

708
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: can't imagine what it's like. You know, no parent in

709
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: their right mind is going to send their child to

710
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: a predator. But they were like, you know, bloody groom

711
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: does too, like, yeah, you're right, But I'm good. I've

712
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: had you know, I'm having a wonderful life. I'm all right.

713
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of counseling, which has been the

714
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: game changer as opposed to just locking it away and

715
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: going I'm going to move on to actually confront it on,

716
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, the big, the big burning questions, why may

717
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: how did I lock it away? How did I not

718
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: deal with it? I'm an educated man, I'm emotionally intelligent man.

719
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: How is this possible? And understanding trauma now, whether that's PDSD,

720
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: whether that's you know, from fighting in Afghanistan, or whether

721
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: it's child's sexual abuse. Trauma is a very strange thing

722
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 2: and it can come up at any time. It can

723
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: be triggering at any time, and everyone's store in everyone's path.

724
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: It's not a linear process. It's highs and lows and

725
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: it's the same as grief, and there's been grief for

726
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: us in our fmly the last twelve months. And it's

727
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: like you don't learn to Yeah, you don't ever get

728
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: over it. You just learn to live with it. And

729
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: I learned to live with the child sexual abuse by

730
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: just locking. As you say, the best analogy is locked away.

731
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: Lockdep never opened, but when it was opened, it was

732
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: undone and it was couldn't put it back in. You know,

733
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: too much drinking, vulnerability and relationships, trust issues, everything, you

734
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: the whole lot trying to deal with it.

735
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: All that is the impact of child sexual abuse, isn't it?

736
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: And yeah, it affects people differently, but there is definitely

737
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: you see that risks taking away that lives play out

738
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: that you've talked about. You withdrew that type of stuff,

739
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: whether it's manifests itself in drinking or drugs or whatever.

740
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 1: I'm assuming like hiding the pain. I've seen so many

741
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: people ex criminals seeing the seat you're sitting in. Ones

742
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: that were big, tough, biky dudes, but when you break

743
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: it down, they carry the pain from when they were

744
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: sexually abused as kids and that's made them. You know,

745
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 1: you've gone there on the path of a police officer,

746
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: and there might be something if you deal deep into that. Well,

747
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be a victim again, because I've

748
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: spoken to some bikeis and the gangster types that they've

749
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: muscled up, tattooed up, and said, well, no one's ever

750
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: going to make me a victim again.

751
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: Correct, yep. I completely understand how they've ented up in

752
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: that path. And it's a fine line. You know, one

753
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: of my best mates growing up, he went the other way,

754
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: got into some trouble and unfortunately taking his own life

755
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: in Belize custody, and we're going to join the cops together.

756
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: But there's different things in life that happen that sends

757
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 2: you on a different path. So I completely get how

758
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: they've end up in an OMCG or a one percenter.

759
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: What I don't get, and I still can't get my

760
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: head around, is the amount of people I've sat across

761
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: in interview rooms that I've arrested child sexual abuse or

762
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, and then they're just closed to me as

763
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: a victim. It's almost I've done this because I was

764
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: offended against Nah no, no, no, you've got you've got

765
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: you are in control of what you can control and

766
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: that that's not that's that's not on. It never flew

767
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: with me, and you know, with all the choices.

768
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't wash with me either. And I learned a

769
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: bit when I spent time in that prison doing the

770
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: Breaking Badness series and the amount of people that I

771
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: thought rocks by thes pedophiles were hated in prison because

772
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: of the nature of the crime. What I learned in

773
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: there speaking to the prisoners was yeah, we hate the

774
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: nature of the crime. But while we really hate these

775
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: people and we'll get out of many chance we get

776
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: is because most of us in here have been victims

777
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: of child sexual abuse and the high ratio of that.

778
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: But they were also paying to point out that doesn't

779
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: make me an offender because they make choices now their

780
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: life choices clearly weren't very good because they are in jail,

781
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: but it didn't transcend into and I think there's a

782
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: misconception too these predators or they can't help it because

783
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: they were victims. But you still have choices.

784
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: There definitely need to be some more work done in that.

785
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: What what was it that made me growing up go

786
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 2: a certain path? I just found a path of something

787
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 2: I was passionate about and that was protecting others. Yeah,

788
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: there was issues with you know, there was never issues

789
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: with drugs, but issues with too much alcohol. But that

790
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 2: was a policing culture too. So you know, I just

791
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: I found my gang in the blue where some people

792
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: find the one percenters and we know that's their culture.

793
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: So I understand that.

794
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: But you found and tribe that you felt safe in them.

795
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but going on to commit crime and you

796
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: know I'm a robber or I'm a sex offender because

797
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: I was abused. No, no, yeah, that's what we go to,

798
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully stop anyone being a victim, but break

799
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: that cycle, that absolute change, and that lends for the

800
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: next generation and protecting them from these predators because they're

801
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's confronting and it's confronting for people to hear,

802
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: but there's a hell of a lot out there that

803
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: people would be shocked to hear. I think when I

804
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: started in charge of the sex Offense Unit, I think

805
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: in my town, in or Rudonga or in Mudonga alone,

806
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: there was I think around high twenties to thirty people

807
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: on the sex offenders registry. Now that's well over double.

808
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: The numbers aren't going down, but the resources are at

809
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: its limit beyond breaking, and we're breaking these investigators that

810
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: are really bloody good at their job because they're very

811
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: victim centric and they get it, but we're putting them

812
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: through all this trauma. They don't come out the same.

813
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 2: So what are we doing to help support?

814
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: What is it about law enforcement? And I can speak

815
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: New South Wales from my experience. You're from Victoria, but

816
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: I've spoken to police from all around the country and

817
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: invariably the child protection units are the ones that are

818
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: under resource and invariably they're the inexperienced police officers or

819
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: detectives on the case and their nature of their crime.

820
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: Like in homicide, everyone that's a pinnacle and you know

821
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 1: someone's life is you need to focus and make sure

822
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: that the best possible job's being done. But unless it's

823
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: a serial killer, we're not preventing crime with child protection.

824
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: I think the pressure that the detectives have on them

825
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: is that if they don't follow this line up, there's

826
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: going to be other victims.

827
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right, So much pressure.

828
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: And do you agree that we just don't seem to

829
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: acknowledge the importance of the work and give the resources

830
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: dedicated the need that say these detectives burn there.

831
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: Couldn't agree more and it's interesting to hear that news

832
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: so so well, I was similar that it's your junior

833
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: investigators are taking their first jobs as detectives because no

834
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 2: one else wants to go there and do that work. Yes,

835
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 2: but I've got friends that have done for a long

836
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: long time and they're bloody good at it. But I'll

837
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: worry about them in retirement because the trauma. But their

838
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: passion and their dedication is to helping these victims and

839
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: trying to prevent these people from offending against the next people.

840
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: But it's a very special type of investigator and it's

841
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: not traditionally what people join the cops for. It's but

842
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: old cops and robbers. So why would I go to

843
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: that unit to work on that and traumatize myself? So then,

844
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: as I said, I did a couple of years at

845
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: the sex Offense Child Abuse unit and it had all

846
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 2: come back on that course, so I had to go

847
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: back to work. And I still remember one day and

848
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: they're checking a brief of evidence, as we've spoken of checking.

849
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: As a supervisor, that was my role, and I was

850
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: reading over a case and it was the same offending.

851
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: It was rooming the same way and everything. And I

852
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: was in my office and one of my one of

853
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: my team walked past me, is a very senior sex

854
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: offense detective past I was in tears. I've broken down.

855
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: I was like, I just can't fucking Coty, this is

856
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: too much. I'm done. But I wasn't. I was in

857
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: no stage at that point. I wasn't even thinking about

858
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: reporting to the cops. Hadn't really told anyone. I told

859
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: my wife, as I said, but trying to deal with

860
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: it and unpack it. But I'm living this work day

861
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 2: and day out.

862
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: Had it got out amongst your colleagues after the.

863
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: And I managed to hide it really well. I equated

864
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: to putting on that mask, the Batman mask, and there

865
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: was there was two sides, and I was just in

866
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: full boss mode, full detective mode, put the mask on

867
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: and did for many years. But there was that that

868
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 2: day in my office, reading that brief that was the same.

869
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: I was in tears. I was absolutely broke down. So

870
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: I look, you know, I got to give credit to

871
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: that version of myself. I reached out for help to

872
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: to one of the sychs of I said, I'm broken,

873
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: what am I going to do, but I didn't want

874
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: to tell you. I can't tell anyone. Please don't tell you.

875
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: It's just the shame because of the culture of the

876
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: environment of know how did you let that happen? Or

877
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: I'm not ready to deal with this myself, let alone

878
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: have other people know. Please don't tell anyone. But I

879
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: just couldn't continue work in that work unit. And my

880
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: boss at the time, he was amazing. God, he's a

881
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: good man. I went to him in confidence and said, look,

882
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: a big deal to say I can't work in that

883
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: detective stage position anymore. And he's like, oh shit, you

884
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 2: all right, Well, did.

885
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: You disclose it because of what happened to you as

886
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: a child or just the nature of the work.

887
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: I said, the nature of the work, and there's something

888
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 2: in my past that's just too confronting. And he's like, oh,

889
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: I get this. He's seen it all before himself, and

890
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: I think he saw he's someone who's a victim, but

891
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: it's not ready to talk yet. But it was a

892
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: safe place, so we had agreed that I was able

893
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 2: to then basically go laterally across to the detective's unit,

894
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: which is just usual chasing burglar and robbers and all that,

895
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: and that boss was retiring, so I slid straight into

896
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 2: him as an acting and when when he retired, I

897
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: got his job, so I didn't have to tell anyone.

898
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: There's no questions as to why I did simph leave

899
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: sex Offense Unit. No, he took promotion back to general

900
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 2: detectives and that made sense, so got away with it. Again.

901
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: I didn't have to deal with it, and I didn't

902
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: have to deal with that part of that world anymore.

903
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: But again not really dealing with it all. I can

904
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: deal with this. I'm alright, I'm a big tough detective

905
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: that's deal with this. And so that's happened, move on.

906
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: But it just fested and fested and tested and had

907
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: to be dealt with.

908
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: How many years were you in the cops after you

909
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: realized and disclosed to your wife.

910
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: I think that was around probably about twenty twelve, roughly.

911
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: I did about another nine years in the job.

912
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: You carrying it for a long time, Yeah, so.

913
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: It took me a while. There's a significant gap between

914
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: at all coming back and then dealing with it because

915
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: my template was just suppress it and you're going to

916
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: be okay, you know, get on with life. I had

917
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: young kids by that stage. It's like, you got you

918
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: got a role here to do. You need to get

919
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: on with this. But it just fested and just bubbled

920
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: away and never never really dealt with And.

921
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: Were you a ticking time bomb? Even like at the

922
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: General Detective's office, a very real chance you could have

923
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: come across the type of offender that offended against you.

924
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well the model at that time was the sex

925
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: offender's registry was managed by my office.

926
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: All right, so you had to sit down.

927
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, some of them, you know, Yeah.

928
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: I know I had that that role at Chatswood.

929
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the psychology behind it is to

930
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: befriend them, to have them believe in you that if

931
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: they feel like they're regressing or they're going to offend,

932
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: they can trust you. And I'm not feeling good. I'm

933
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: feeling this and that become too overwhelming. So again the

934
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: mask went on and I was able to somehow, I

935
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: don't know how I pulled this off, but I was

936
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,280
Speaker 2: able to shift the management of the sex offenders registery

937
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 2: to my detectives. The poor guys and girls that were

938
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: on the floor, they're probably going, we've got to have

939
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: to do us what we're doing there hearing this for

940
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 2: the first time, by the way.

941
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I so is this an apology to them?

942
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: Sorry, but there's a reason why, and it was able.

943
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: It enabled me to get on with my job. And

944
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: I just kept pushing, like, you know, why are we

945
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 2: dealing with the registry? The registrary should be dealt with

946
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: by the work group to put them there. And there

947
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: was conflicting viewpoints as too, well, they're the ones that

948
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: put them in jail. We need to need someone else

949
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: that they can trust. So I saw both sides, but

950
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: all the time, I'm behind this mask and I can't

951
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: do it. I just can't do it. And there was

952
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 2: nowhere else promotion wise to go for me. Yeah, promotion

953
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: was back to Melbourne side. There's no other sideway steps.

954
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: So that's and like people say, they understand the registry

955
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: if we just explain a little bit, it's where people

956
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: convicted child sex offenders attend the station and you sit

957
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: down and have a conversation with them, what are you

958
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: up to and just checking that they're not going off track,

959
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: and basically our way of keeping an eye on them,

960
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: but then knowing that we're keeping an eye on them too,

961
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 1: and so you had to spend a bit of time sitting.

962
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: It wasn't just walking tick and then see later you

963
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: had to sit down and have a conversation with.

964
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and you know, and some would

965
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: disclose things and things that were either on their laptops

966
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: or that have to just goes to your email address,

967
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: or if they've had any contact with a child, and yeah,

968
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: and basically calling out their bullshit. Look in some respects,

969
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: I was perfect for that job, but I just wasn't

970
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: ready to have that volume.

971
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: Of perfect for the job.

972
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me emotionally, I didn't handle it well at

973
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 2: all for my own well being, didn't handle it so poorly.

974
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm not a psychologists told you that.

975
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: No, that's right. Yeah, I know who would have thought

976
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: right benefit behind sight, But I guess that's my point

977
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: is talking about it and getting it out there. It's

978
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: going to be okay. It's okay to tell someone, but

979
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: just my advice to pick pick someone you do trust

980
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: to tell and it's going to be okay. You're going

981
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 2: to be okay, but you can't do it on your own.

982
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: You've got to get some help. And my thing was

983
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: I can do this. I can do anything, I'll do it.

984
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: I'll just bury myself in. And you know, a celebration

985
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: of too much.

986
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: It's a combination of you're a bloke, you're brought up

987
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: in a certain era where that's how you were told

988
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: to behave with things, and then the cops would have

989
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: reinforced that and every time, don't break down. We've got

990
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: work to do that, that's right, So I can understand

991
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: the difficult position you're in. Then you're dealing with your

992
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: own like emotional upheaval of realizing what you've been suppressed

993
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: for so long. You talked about the case that you're

994
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: looking at that the grooming case. Just describe the grooming

995
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: in a general sense or what happened to you personally,

996
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,959
Speaker 1: just so people get a sense of what we're talking

997
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: about when we're talking about grooming, because this is to me,

998
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: that's the red flags, yeah, of course, and yeah, this

999
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: is the type of thing that people have got to

1000
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: look out for. Yeah.

1001
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 2: So for me, it was around how the hands on

1002
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: approach been able to physically touch you, because you know,

1003
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: a grown man physically touching a boy that's not their son.

1004
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: If I still hug my son and and you know

1005
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: he may not want to do that for much longer,

1006
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: but I'll take it while I can. But yeah, you'd

1007
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: look twice at some one hugging your own son. One

1008
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: of one of my mates was hugging my boy hello

1009
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 2: all the time. That's that's that's a bit off.

1010
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's grooming.

1011
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 2: How far can I push this boundary? You know? Or

1012
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: that for me in relation to my offending, it was

1013
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: he would pretend to get down with us and tickle,

1014
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: hands on and fuck and that's take me back, and

1015
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 2: you know that that trauma response or that that that

1016
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: grooming behavior. It was an excuse for him to go

1017
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: hands on and you know, the the involuntary nature of

1018
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: being tickled. You're laughing. So people look at that and going, oh,

1019
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: they're just having a muck around. But again, I mean,

1020
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: obviously what happened to me, it's a massive red flag

1021
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 2: for me. But it's an excuse that if it doesn't

1022
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 2: look right, you know, why why are you doing that?

1023
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think if you put yourself in the position

1024
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: like I coach kids' soccer teams and from I think

1025
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: six up until fifteen sixteen that age group, and I

1026
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't be alone with a kid or you wouldn't be

1027
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: cuddling the kid. You understand the boundaries, and when those

1028
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,959
Speaker 1: boundaries across there the red flags, they are the indicators. Yeah,

1029
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: I look back and I remember when I was playing sports,

1030
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: someone that was always keen to massage the kids. I

1031
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: hold it. I would feel uncomfortable massaging any child that's

1032
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: not my own, like that have got an injury, don't

1033
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: come up and how's your leg?

1034
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the testing the boundaries, the boundaries not

1035
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: only of how much can I get away with with

1036
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: the victim before they say something. And I know that

1037
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 2: there were some people in my year at school that

1038
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 2: did stand up to this guy, so he knew I

1039
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: can't pick on them, They're not going to be vulnerable enough.

1040
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: So then also grooming the other adults that are around.

1041
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: How much can I get away with before someone's going

1042
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: to call me out on this? So in public this

1043
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 2: guy was not in public, but in eyes of others,

1044
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: there was a lot of hands on tickling. But that's

1045
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: how the offending started as well, and that hands went

1046
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 2: too far. And you know, the the crap thing about

1047
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: that now is that you know my boys the same age,

1048
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 2: and I can't get down and tickle with him. Yeah,

1049
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: I can't. And that's just fucking sad. That's you know,

1050
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: how can I not get out of my own son

1051
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: and even you know, from when it's all come back.

1052
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: Ever since then, I've started and I've gone.

1053
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: An awkwardness, too much about it.

1054
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 2: Too much, can't do it. And again in the last month,

1055
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 2: I've had to tell my kids because they're old enough now,

1056
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: all of them. I've got three kids, ones and an

1057
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: adult she's twenty two. And she was amazing. She was like,

1058
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: oh my god, Dad, And again it's not what I

1059
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 2: don't know what I expected, but just amazing support. I'm

1060
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: so sorry that happened to And then the younger two,

1061
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: you know, they're into their teenage yers understanding.

1062
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: And and you break it down.

1063
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: I just had to just get straight to the facts,

1064
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: and so this is what happened to me. They're old

1065
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: enough to understand about that now. I initially had hope.

1066
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 2: Maybe an initial part of me thought, oh, look, I

1067
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 2: don't want to put mom and dad through the trauma.

1068
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: I'll wait till their past because they're getting on. I

1069
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: love with mum and dad, but you're getting on. I

1070
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: hope they hang around for a long long, long time.

1071
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: We'll let that send them their own personal version, you know, but.

1072
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 2: Just that mindset of all I need to protect them still, Yeah,

1073
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: because how the hell can I do it to all?

1074
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: Because you thought already, like if you said you told

1075
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: your parents for four weeks or so ago, you'd already

1076
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: commenced all the processes through the courts. Talk about the

1077
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: next part, But how did you break it to your parents?

1078
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: Because I know as a parent, or how my parents

1079
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: would react. You'd be devastated. You'd be you talk shame

1080
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: being the victim. They'd have shame. Why didn't we protect your.

1081
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a bit of that. Yeah, it's it's confronting,

1082
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 2: no doubt for them. Look though they were just you know,

1083
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: eventually after all the shock, and they've read about it

1084
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 2: in the media. It's in the media locally, right, And

1085
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: poor Dad would ring me every now and again. Ago

1086
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 2: you just see old mates being.

1087
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: Charged, and that would have been That would have been

1088
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: a dad way of trying to ask the question.

1089
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 2: Well, no, I love you da. He didn't put two

1090
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: and two together, right, No, So it was more than

1091
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 2: I just put the mask on, and how the rooster's

1092
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 2: gone would talk about his beloved Sydney roosters and changed

1093
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 2: the topic. I had no idea. And it's the same

1094
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: with my brother, two brothers, and I'll get upset soon.

1095
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: But my oldest brother passed away, and that's one of

1096
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: the things that hurts me so much is that he

1097
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: was the one that protected me growing up. I never

1098
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,959
Speaker 2: got to tell him, and I wanted to tell him

1099
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 2: that I'd taken the steps and that I was okay.

1100
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: But then he started get on well last year. But

1101
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: I had a conversation with his wife, actually not too

1102
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: long ago, because I decided to tell all the family

1103
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: and told her, you know that this is what's happened

1104
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 2: to me, and she's like, oh, you know, jeez, I reckon.

1105
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 2: Jered might have picked up on that right And now

1106
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: as a part of it goes, I think maybe he knew,

1107
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 2: but just again wanted me to find my own time before.

1108
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: Telling you, yeah, let you have the space.

1109
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: But we never had a chance to talk about it.

1110
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 2: That's sad, so sad. But looking raised to Mum and dad,

1111
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: eventually they got there because they've had all this you know,

1112
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 2: you never should bury your own son, but they've had

1113
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: all that traule to deal with. And then I dropped

1114
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: this on them. But look in the end they were like,

1115
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 2: I think it was like, good on your son for

1116
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: standing up for it eventually, but it hasn't been easier

1117
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 2: my initial you know, going back years before I reported

1118
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: the cops, it was like, I wait till a mom

1119
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: and dad are gone, then maybe I'll do something, because

1120
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: I was weighing up looks in a position to refend. Now, yeah,

1121
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm ninety nine point nine percent certain that

1122
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: he's not in a position to be able to offend

1123
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: against anyone. Okay, tick, And had some some other inquiries

1124
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: that I did as viseral cops, not police inquiries. Mind you,

1125
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 2: I'm out of the police force by this day, so

1126
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm not by any means saying I use police resources

1127
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 2: s bea clear. So I thought I'd just wait until

1128
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 2: mum and dad are done and dad put them through it.

1129
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 2: But as soon as I saw that other person step forward,

1130
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, they thought, you know what, made whoever

1131
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 2: you are, You're not going to do this alone. So

1132
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 2: I made a very conscious decision to when I told

1133
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: the police that if they wanted to, they could use

1134
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 2: my name to other people to say Grahamson from offors

1135
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 2: stepped up. Do you want to go along as well?

1136
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 2: Now I have no idea how much of an impact

1137
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: or even if that was used or not. All I

1138
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 2: do know is that there's been multiple people now come forward. Naturally,

1139
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 2: the cops have got to keep it, keep it.

1140
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: The terrible thing about the nature of the crime too,

1141
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: invariably the one that they charged with. It's no nice

1142
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: lay of the defense on a non nice layd victim.

1143
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: We might take a break here. When we get back,

1144
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your experience from the other

1145
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: side as a victim reporting the crime to the police,

1146
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: and what you observed, how improvements could be And I

1147
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: like the fact that the police that you were dealing

1148
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 1: with your rate and they were doing a good job.

1149
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: But it will be interesting to get your perspective because

1150
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: you've seen that system and you understand the system and

1151
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: possibly where there could be improvements and how that all

1152
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: played out.

1153
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

1154
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: That brings us to the end of today's episode. I

1155
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: want to sincerely thank Graham Simpendorfer for his incredible vulnerability

1156
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: and for trusting me to help him tell his story.

1157
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of courage to speak out, and

1158
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: it's important these conversations have had. We'll be back in

1159
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: a couple of days with more from Graham. Before we

1160
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: wrap up, I need to know the game that this

1161
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: interview was recorded before Graham's case went the trial. In

1162
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: the time since this recording, Graham's specific case resulted in

1163
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: an acquittal, the same individual also faced trials over a

1164
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: number of other historical sexual offenses. He has found guilty

1165
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: of sexual offenses relating to four victims. He pleaded not

1166
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: guilty to all charges and maintains his innocence and has

1167
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: filed an intent to appeal thevictions. If anything we've discussed

1168
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: today has brought up difficult emotions, or if you or

1169
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: someone you know needs help, there is support available. You

1170
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: don't have to go through it alone. Reach out the

1171
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: support services like one eight hundred, Respect