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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: Today we're going to examine the murder investigation which captured

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Speaker 1: the attention of the country. We're talking about the death

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Speaker 1: of two campers in the Victorian Wilderness in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is Greg Hadri. Maybe you haven't heard of

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Speaker 1: his name before, but I'm sure you would be aware

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Speaker 1: of some of the crime projects he's worked on. Greg

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Speaker 1: is a writer and producer. He was also involved in

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Speaker 1: the Underbelly TV series. Greg is a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: who have known for a long time, and he has

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Speaker 1: turned his considerable talents to writing a book titled In

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Speaker 1: the Dead of Night. The book is about the deaths

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Speaker 1: of secret lovers Russell Hill and Carol Clay and inside

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Speaker 1: the Painsaking police investigation to catch a killer who happened

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Speaker 1: to be a Jet Star captain named Greg Lynn. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the investigation in detail and a

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Speaker 1: lot of other things about crime in this country. Greg

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating person, a good storyteller who understands crime

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Speaker 1: better than most. Greg Hadrick, Welcome to our Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Gary. It's good to see you Greg.

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Speaker 2: It's great to see you again too. Been a couple

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Speaker 2: of years, Yes it has been. Yeah, always good to see.

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Speaker 1: You well, no doubt you've been busy and yeah, no

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Speaker 1: rest for the wicked, so to speak. No. I finished

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Speaker 1: your book In the Dead of the Night, and I've

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Speaker 1: got to say it is you've really encapsulated what the

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Speaker 1: murder investigation is about, which is not surprising given the

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Speaker 1: projects you've worked on before. But it's a fascinating story,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is and that was actually what drew me to it,

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Speaker 2: that to be able to get inside a homicide investigation

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Speaker 2: which was so difficult, and be able to bring an

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Speaker 2: audience or readership inside that investigation, to give them the

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Speaker 2: feeling of what it is like at each moment as

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Speaker 2: they're going through it. It was the real incentive behind

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Speaker 2: writing it.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've done it very well, and you've traumatized the

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Speaker 1: next homicide detective who was sitting reading the book and thinking,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to get involved in this investigation, because it

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Speaker 1: really started with nothing, nothing, which was unusual.

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Speaker 2: What I've heard was that in this day and age,

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Speaker 2: usually there's you know, people have phones on them, or

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Speaker 2: there's CCTV not too far away, or there's you know

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Speaker 2: someone it's someone close to the person involved, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: There's places they can start the middle of the one

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Speaker 2: and Gator Valley had no phone reception, there were no cameras,

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Speaker 2: there was no one who knew Russell and Carroll anywhere

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Speaker 2: within two hundred kilometers of the site. They had no

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Speaker 2: idea where to start.

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Speaker 1: It was a classic murder mystery, wasn't it. Yeah, when

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Speaker 1: we'll talk in detail and we'll take it through chronologically

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Speaker 1: how the investigation evolved. But it brought back old school

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Speaker 1: detective thinking. Yeah, little red flags, little indicators that you

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Speaker 1: couldn't hang a case on it, but you're thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't quite add up. That's why I found fascinating

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's and a lot of that was circumstantial,

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Speaker 2: but thread by thread they built it up. And the

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Speaker 2: way I heard it described is they felt they needed

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Speaker 2: to get enough threads that you couldn't break the rope.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way of a good way of describing.

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Speaker 1: I think there was something in your book and one

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Speaker 1: of the detectives we're talking that's like trying to put

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Speaker 1: the jigsaw together when you haven't got the pitch.

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Speaker 2: You haven't got the cover, which I thought was a good.

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Speaker 1: Analogy and sort of added to it. What is it

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Speaker 1: you think about true crime that fascinates fascinates people? Look,

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Speaker 1: there's a few answers.

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Speaker 2: And because I've puzzled about this for now, you know,

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Speaker 2: fifteen odd years, tight years, and I think there's one

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Speaker 2: aspect is to feel safe, people feel they need to

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Speaker 2: understand exactly what happened, and if they do understand what

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Speaker 2: the motivation was, what drove that particular murder to happen,

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Speaker 2: crime to happen. Then they can go, oh, well, I

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Speaker 2: can avoid, I can feel safe. I know that wouldn't

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Speaker 2: happen to me because of A, B and C. I

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Speaker 2: think there's an element of that to it. I think

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people, it is so tied up

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Speaker 2: with morality, with what is right and wrong, what is

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Speaker 2: good and bad? What is punishment? What are consequences?

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Speaker 1: And that affects all.

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Speaker 2: Our daily lives with how we deal with other people,

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Speaker 2: and true crime just heightens that, takes that and puts

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Speaker 2: it on steroids.

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Speaker 1: Well, it makes you question your own morals and values,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. It does when you're looking at how the

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Speaker 1: impact that crime has in society. Yeah, what about yourself?

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Speaker 1: What's your interest in? And we will talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your career before we get into the murder investigation.

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Speaker 1: But you, in your professional career have covered a lot

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Speaker 1: of crime stories and delivered it on TV and different forums.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And I think what's kept me interested? I

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Speaker 2: mean there's a and again it's no one simple answer.

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Speaker 2: There is a strand where it's commercially rewarding to do

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Speaker 2: true crime because you know you have an audience, but

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Speaker 2: beyond that, for me, it did have to do with morality.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've done quite a few legal shows as well,

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Speaker 2: and they're fairly close. You're always dealing with, you know,

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Speaker 2: what is suffering?

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Speaker 1: How do you relieve it?

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Speaker 2: How do society become a safer place for human beings

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Speaker 2: to live in? Those big questions about you know, where

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Speaker 2: are we safe and what do we have to do

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Speaker 2: to make ourselves safe? I think are constantly on the

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Speaker 2: top of everyone's mind.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your career told us a little bit about yourself

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Speaker 1: before we delve into the murder.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was at university before media communication courses really existed,

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Speaker 2: So I did English honors and then came out not sure,

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Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to use that in some creative way,

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Speaker 2: whether that was going to be authorship, which has taken

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Speaker 2: me thirty five forty years to do, or journalism or whatever.

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Speaker 2: And it just so happened that the first paying job

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Speaker 2: by God was in television, and I was lucky. I

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Speaker 2: seemed to suit it and it worked well. New doors

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Speaker 2: kept on opening up, it never got boring, and so

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Speaker 2: I stayed there initially. It's sort of the career has

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Speaker 2: been in two big parts. The first fifteen twenty years

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Speaker 2: was working on other people shows as a freelance writer

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Speaker 2: in story rooms, et cetera, et cetera. And then the

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Speaker 2: second half has been mostly show running the shows that

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Speaker 2: I want to make, starting with my husband Killer the

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Speaker 2: Telling Movie for ten, going through Mary Bryant, Society Murders, MDA,

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Speaker 2: through to the Underbelly for franchise Janet King and they

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Speaker 2: were they sort of crossed over Pine Gap and then

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Speaker 2: Human Era was just last year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you your resumey of shows that you've been

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Speaker 1: involved in is quite impressive. And when they talk about

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Speaker 1: unemployed writers or actors, you seem to keep yourself busy.

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been like I guess, yeah, there's an element

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Speaker 2: of luck, and I guess an element of being in

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Speaker 2: the right place at the right time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the Underbelly TV series, and obviously it's personal

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Speaker 1: to me, and we'll talk about the Underbelly badness, but

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Speaker 1: the Underbelly series, the series one with the Melbourne Underworld

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Speaker 1: that that really, I don't know, it seemed to really exploded.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was an absolute breakout hit. And

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Speaker 2: that's the I've been involved with many successful shows, and

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Speaker 2: there's what It's one thing being a success, it's another

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Speaker 2: thing being being a real breakout hit, which it was

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Speaker 2: in Australia.

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Speaker 1: And we.

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Speaker 2: That the genesis of that first season of Underbelly was

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Speaker 2: really because Eddie Maguire had absolute control Channel nine for

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Speaker 2: about six months.

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Speaker 1: And he was fascinated by it. He was he was

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Speaker 1: a broady boy.

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Speaker 2: He knew that world. He always thought it would be

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Speaker 2: hugely popular. You know, a lot of other people weren't

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Speaker 2: quite so sure when we when we first started it

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Speaker 2: was I was lucky that one of the one of

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Speaker 2: the cops who under the radar helped me with Society

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Speaker 2: Murders was then on taskwas Paranha. So the link to

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Speaker 2: Underbelly from Channel nine's point of view was Andrew Ruhlan

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Speaker 2: and John Sylvester, and the link from my point of

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Speaker 2: view was the operational cops in taskwors Parana who we

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Speaker 2: had some help with.

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Speaker 1: They really helped well again watching it and it sort

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Speaker 1: of changed the way a story was told. And like

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Speaker 1: the Melbourne Underworld murders, that series encapsulated the way it's

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Speaker 1: reported factually is one thing that then seeing the characters

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Speaker 1: play out and the personalities and yeah, it was a

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Speaker 1: world of crime that I sort of understood, like that

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Speaker 1: some of them are larger than life without glorifying them,

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Speaker 1: that's just the way they are.

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Speaker 2: And you know, Carl Williams was larger than life even

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Speaker 2: though he walked around in track he's and made a

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Speaker 2: red rooster. Yeah, and yet he was Everyone liked him,

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Speaker 2: and he became the boss of that gang. And so

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Speaker 2: order you to sort of present that and go, look,

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Speaker 2: this is part of our society. These people are living

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Speaker 2: next door to you.

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Speaker 1: I think it also played out how things can escalate

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Speaker 1: in that world, like it was a tit for tat

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Speaker 1: and it just kept going bigger and bigger. It was crazy.

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Speaker 1: I remember one sitting down talking to you one time,

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Speaker 1: and we won't name the name of the person, but

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Speaker 1: I reference this because I think it's quite funny where

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Speaker 1: one of the villains that you were portraying on their

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Speaker 1: approached you and you might recall it, but it stuck

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Speaker 1: with me that said, I don't do litigation through the courts, yes,

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Speaker 1: And I thought that's one of the most intimidating threats. Well,

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Speaker 1: how else are you going to do litigation? Basically telling

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Speaker 1: you you better portray me properly. Yeah, did you read?

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Speaker 1: But that was a real gangster way of saying things,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It was yeah, yeah, and you know, with a smile,

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Speaker 2: and yet you go, I can see you smiling, but.

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Speaker 1: That very very chilling. Yes, well, you came crashing into

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Speaker 1: my life with Underbelly badness, and it'd be amiss of

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Speaker 1: me if I didn't raise it, because I think it

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Speaker 1: had an impact on my life. People can judge whether

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Speaker 1: it's a good impact or a bad impact, but how

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Speaker 1: our world's collided with that. I think you were speaking

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Speaker 1: to New South Wales Police. It was on the back

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Speaker 1: of a couple of other Underbelly series and you approached

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Speaker 1: senior Police and said, we want to cover a story

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Speaker 1: where the cops are getting and I think the one

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Speaker 1: before that was corruption in the Cross and you wanted

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Speaker 1: to show that the cops and I remember one of

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Speaker 1: the first conversations I had with you about it when

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Speaker 1: it was approved by Senior Police, said we want to

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Speaker 1: delve into your private life, and I think I responded

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Speaker 1: to you, well, you know, I'm divorced, and I saw

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Speaker 1: you and some of the other writers seeing there going

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Speaker 1: well that's good and then I had a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a lady that I met at a murder trial fantastic

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Speaker 1: serial killer, and I had a relationship with someone I

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Speaker 1: work with and they go, perfect, we don't need to

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Speaker 1: embellish great television. So that it made me go home

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Speaker 1: and reflect on my private life. But look, I was

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Speaker 1: proud of what we did on that that yeah, and

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Speaker 1: when I say well, it was very much a team

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Speaker 1: effort on an investigation of that scale, and the impact

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Speaker 1: that had on me the Underbelly Badness series was that

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Speaker 1: I sort of put the target on my back within

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Speaker 1: my own organization but also out on the street. That yeah,

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Speaker 1: you certainly changed the way I went about went about things, and.

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Speaker 2: That was our I mean, if you if you backtrack

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Speaker 2: to the first and I think Badness was that's one

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Speaker 2: of the ones I'm most proud of as well. I

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Speaker 2: thought we did. You know, it was a very good

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Speaker 2: show and it did very very well because there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of emotional connection to all of the characters

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Speaker 2: in that the goodies and the badies, because of the

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Speaker 2: depth we put into that characterization. If you go back

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Speaker 2: to the to the famous first aes of Funderbilly the

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Speaker 2: Crims in that were probably more complex than the cops.

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Speaker 2: Part of that was Victoria Police didn't want us to

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Speaker 2: use the real police, and for the whole host of

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Speaker 2: operational reasons, but the effect of that is that the

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Speaker 2: police are just a little more two dimensional than the

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Speaker 2: crims are. And we were going, but these guys are

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Speaker 2: doing great stuff for society, they should be the heroes

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Speaker 2: more than the crims. So we were wanting to do

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Speaker 2: one where actually we were talking about real police and

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Speaker 2: showing them as complex people as well as the crims.

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Speaker 2: And that was I think the difference between Badness and

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Speaker 2: that first series.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, yeah I was confronting as it was.

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Speaker 1: I think I was in the fetal position, sucking the

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Speaker 1: thumb watching the first episode. You asked me if I

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Speaker 1: want to see it before it came out, and I thought, no,

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Speaker 1: some plausible denying ability, but that is the price that

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Speaker 1: you pay with policing. And yeah, I'm not ashamed of

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Speaker 1: what my life is, but it's played out warts and

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Speaker 1: all and the impact that has and I think it

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Speaker 1: gave the public an understanding of what it takes to

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Speaker 1: take and the emotions. And you guys spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time with us and you saw the emotional rollercoaster.

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Speaker 1: You were on the high then, you know, yeah, just chaotic,

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Speaker 1: the chaotic, chaotic life and.

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Speaker 2: Yet ultimately victorious in that case against some you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of badness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah well and yeah, well it was. It turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a great investigation and one that I'm proud

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Speaker 1: of and I made a good friend from it. Matt

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Speaker 1: Nabel who You've got to play me? And I think

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Speaker 1: you picked the right person. We're good friends and he

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Speaker 1: got because that was my When you approach and everyone

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Speaker 1: is this way, and I don't care what they say,

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Speaker 1: but when you say, oh, they're going to do a

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Speaker 1: TV show on you're a movie or whatever, the first

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Speaker 1: question you want to ask is who's going to play me?

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Speaker 1: But I was trying to be too cool for that

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Speaker 1: and just oh, yeah, no, that's cool. And when you

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Speaker 1: put Matt in front of me and we got to meet,

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Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, he's going to represent me the way

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Speaker 1: I think I should or would like to get a

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Speaker 1: great job. Yeah, but both of you. It was an

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Speaker 1: interesting experience. Another show that you worked on that people

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Speaker 1: here might be interested was Crownie's. Yeah, that was taking

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Speaker 1: us into the court world. It did, but It actually

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Speaker 1: began with the Crime World. It began because we did

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Speaker 1: the telemovie adaptation of Society Murders, and the book of

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Speaker 1: Society Murders was written by Hillary Bonnie who had been

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Speaker 1: a solicitor in the DPP and Victoria and you know,

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Speaker 1: it was her suggestion that, you know, it'd be a

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Speaker 1: great setting for a TV show. But as well as

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Speaker 1: the solicitors, we needed, you know, the barristers that they

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Speaker 1: and the Crown prosecutors that they worked for. So it

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Speaker 1: was a combination of the research. A lot of the

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Speaker 1: research for that was from Hillary from the Crown solicitors

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Speaker 1: point of view and Margaret Kneen here as the Crown

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Speaker 1: processor's point of view. Yeah. Well you always get an

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Speaker 1: interesting story when you got Margaret involved, yep, as we know,

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Speaker 1: and Janet King the flow on from that.

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Speaker 2: And the flow on from Crownies, and I think Crownies

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Speaker 2: is one of the shows that is age really well

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 1: The ABC.

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Speaker 2: It's no great secret that their majority of their audience

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Speaker 2: is you know, forty five fifty class, So it was

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Speaker 2: no great surprise at the end of that first year

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Speaker 2: is they went well our audience, They did their research

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Speaker 2: and they said, our audience is actually responding more to

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Speaker 2: Janet than they are to the twenty somethings, and so

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Speaker 2: we re engineered it to put that character at the center.

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Speaker 2: And then the plan was that she would move around

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Speaker 2: jurisdictions and which actually followed Market, so from Crown Prosecutor

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Speaker 2: then to Royal Commissioner, then to a sort of special

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Speaker 2: council sort of thing, and so the hugely experienced Janet

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Speaker 2: was in a different environment, dealing with different issues each time,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of that echoed Market's life.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's a world that I understand, and

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Speaker 1: I think you captured the essence of it. Yeah, people

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Speaker 1: sometimes people say, but does that happen? Well, it's not

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Speaker 1: a docu mentory like there's yeah, there's some creativity in there,

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Speaker 1: but the essence of what it's about. And that's where

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Speaker 1: when people ask me about Underbelly Badness, I captured the

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Speaker 1: essence of what that story story was about. And I

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Speaker 1: think there were some things that you said we couldn't

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Speaker 1: put in because people wouldn't believe it, And that's true.

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Speaker 2: And I often say, even going back to the first Underbelly,

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Speaker 2: when people ask the question, generally speaking, the more outrageous

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Speaker 2: things that you can't believe, the more likely it is

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Speaker 2: it's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's interesting and full

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Speaker 2: credit to you. But having read the book in the

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Speaker 2: dead of night, maybe you've been wasting your talents. You

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Speaker 2: should have been writing books right from the start, because

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Speaker 2: I've got to say, and I'm not you know, I've

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Speaker 2: read a lot of books here before, guests, come on,

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Speaker 2: But that took me so deep into a homicide investigation.

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Speaker 2: I was living and breathing and thinking, Okay, what would

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Speaker 2: the detectives do now, and the moves that they were

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Speaker 2: going to make, the corners that they were jammed into.

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Speaker 1: The moral dilemmas. I had so many ethical and moral dilemmas.

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Speaker 1: That is the norm for a homicide investigation. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about it, but before we do, in

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Speaker 1: respect to the victims, because when we're talking homicide, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the lives of two people. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us who Russell Hill was? And Carol Clay will start

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Speaker 1: off with Russell.

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Speaker 2: Look a little bit. What I know about Russell was

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Speaker 2: that he had been a logger and a forestry worker

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Speaker 2: in the One and Gata Valley for a lot of

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Speaker 2: his life. He then, toward the later years, drove trucks,

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Speaker 2: mostly for bunnings or for things to and from for

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Speaker 2: their timber divisions and all of that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: He'd relatively recently retired. He had always loved the outback

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Speaker 2: and the outdoors. Sometimes his wife Robin had gone with him.

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Speaker 2: Many times he'd sort of gone on his own.

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Speaker 1: He was also.

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Speaker 2: A very big radio enthusiast high frequency radio, and there

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Speaker 2: was a group of about half a dozen also mates

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Speaker 2: that he contacted quite regularly through high frequency radio, and

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Speaker 2: they kept in touch when any of them knew they

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Speaker 2: were out in the books because there's no farm reception,

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Speaker 2: yeah or whatever, so he'd set up an aerial and

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Speaker 2: make sure he checked in, you know, six o'clock most evenings.

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Speaker 1: And at the time of his disappearance, he was in

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Speaker 1: his seventies. Yeah, seventy four I think, okay, but a

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Speaker 1: fit seventy four. Yeah, I think when they first went missing,

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Speaker 1: people thought, oh, two seventy year olds, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: fallen off their chair. Yeah, and you go no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: He was quite a tough dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: What about Carol.

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Speaker 2: Carol was into like she had been president of the

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Speaker 2: country Women's Association or a very high office holder. She

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Speaker 2: was very much part of the community. She was someone

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Speaker 2: who always helped other people, wanted to volunteer for you know, this,

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Speaker 2: that and the other. Always active. If she wasn't out

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Speaker 2: helping other people in her community, she was at home,

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Speaker 2: you know, cooking for various fates and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So he was someone who always was giving to other

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Speaker 2: parts of the community. Very widely liked and very highly

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Speaker 2: thought of.

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Speaker 1: I saw I think it was on sixty minutes where

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Speaker 1: her younger sister was in the viewed and described her

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Speaker 1: as a larger than life personality, always happy, always, always buddly,

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Speaker 1: looking for funding, funding life. Yeah, the circumstances. If we

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Speaker 1: talk about the case, I'll just relay what I know

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Speaker 1: and knew, add the color to it that it was

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Speaker 1: a campsite that was found abandoned. That was basically the

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Speaker 1: genesis of the investigation on the back of reports to

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Speaker 1: the police that Carol and Russell were missing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it actually started with Russell's by Robin, who reported

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Speaker 2: him missing when he hadn't checked in on the high

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Speaker 2: frequency radio for about four or five nights in a row,

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Speaker 2: and Rob Ashton who was the sort of key figure

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Speaker 2: in that group of radio enthusiasm. He talked to Robin

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Speaker 2: and said, something's not right here. So she went to

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Speaker 2: the police and she didn't know at that stage that

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Speaker 2: Carol was with Russell, so she just reported Russell missing.

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Speaker 2: And when the police put out to the media, has

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Speaker 2: anyone seen Russell, that's when Carol's friends caught in and said, well,

401
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Speaker 2: where's Carol? She was with him, and that's when they went, oh, well.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was. What I would say on that, Greg,

403
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Speaker 1: it's amazing and we'll break it, break it all down.

404
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Speaker 1: But these are the type of things that come out

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Speaker 1: when you start looking into people's lives. It doesn't surprise me,

406
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Speaker 1: like you're going to a murder investigation in the country

407
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Speaker 1: town and you uncover all sorts of things when you

408
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Speaker 1: sort of lift the blanket and go, okay, what's going

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Speaker 1: on here in this town? So we'll put it out there.

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Speaker 1: They'd been they'd been friends for a long time. They

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Speaker 1: had what came out.

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Speaker 2: In court, and I I like to be my viewer

413
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Speaker 2: version of having a respect for the families is that

414
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Speaker 2: I don't go I don't want to go beyond what

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Speaker 2: came out in the court case and the testimony they go,

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Speaker 2: I think that's fair. Everything else, I view is irrelevant

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Speaker 2: to the case. And it was the investigation in the

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Speaker 2: case that mostly the book was about. But what what

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Speaker 2: you know was presented at court was that Russell and

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Speaker 2: Carroll had known each other at school when were teenagers.

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Speaker 2: Russell didn't want it to get that serious and they

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Speaker 2: split up. He met Robin, they married, had three daughters,

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Speaker 2: three lovely daughters. Some many years later he met Carol again.

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Speaker 2: They began a relationship which Robin found out about, and

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Speaker 2: Russell said, no, I don't want to break up the family.

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Speaker 2: You know, the three girls and you were important to me,

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Speaker 2: so you know, I won't see Carol, and that was

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Speaker 2: Robin's at that point. Robin thought, well it's over. And

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Speaker 2: what she didn't know was that for you know, several years,

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Speaker 2: it would seem that they had had started another relationship

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Speaker 2: where they would often go camping together.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now when we talk camping, because we're sitting here

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Speaker 1: in the sort of in a city Sydney suburb, to

434
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Speaker 1: appreciate the wilderness of the area in which they disappeared,

435
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 1: and you talk CB radios and communication. When they go

436
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: in there.

437
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 2: They're off grid, completely off grid. It is, it is

438
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 2: really remote.

439
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: Can you describe it to people that might have been

440
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: to locations like that?

441
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: Look, it's you can only get in there with the

442
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 2: four will drive, so and you would be generally, unless

443
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 2: you're a very experienced four wall driver, you'd be unwise

444
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 2: to go in on your own, just because anything could

445
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 2: happen and you could be lost forever. It's the the

446
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: our Pine. The One and Gata Valley is a small

447
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,959
Speaker 2: part of the Alpine National Park and the Alpine National

448
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 2: Park which is pretty much entirely off grid, entire no

449
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 2: phone reception.

450
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: Nothing.

451
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 2: There is huge, you know in the book, I say

452
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: it's bigger than Belgium.

453
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: Or about the same.

454
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: And you don't just go there for a picnic on

455
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: a Sunday.

456
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: You've got the plan. You have to plan.

457
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: Yes, Applies Russell had a chainsaw with him in case

458
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: he needed to you know, you know she often did

459
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: have to cut to clear tracks.

460
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: Don't you carry that in your card?

461
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: Funnily enough, no, so you know, spare petrol, water, food supplies, tent,

462
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 2: the area for the radio. Everything had to be there.

463
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: He was very well prepared and most people who go

464
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: into that valley to camp in the want to go

465
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: a valley, go in very prepared, right.

466
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: Russell's wife would be comforted by the fact that she

467
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: would often hear him call in at six o'clock if

468
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: he's out there with his crew of radio, with.

469
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: His crew of radio enthusiasts, and she knew how to

470
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 2: turn the radio on at home and would always listen in.

471
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: She didn't have the license to use it as such,

472
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: but she would always switch it on and listen and

473
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 2: make sure he was okay, and he knew that she'd

474
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: be listening okay.

475
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: So after a couple of days she hadn't heard from him,

476
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: and then that's when she went to the police. What

477
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: was the initial response from the police. How did they

478
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: treat that?

479
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: They treated it pretty seriously right from the beginning, the

480
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: uniform police, I think partly because they knew that was

481
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: a remote area and it was if he had been

482
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 2: for years, pretty religious about, you know, checking in on

483
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 2: the radio. Missing five or six days is serious. So

484
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: they went up there the following day. A couple of

485
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: the guys in a police force will drive. The first

486
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 2: time they met up, they didn't know where to look

487
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: and couldn't actually find anything and just told, you know,

488
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: bumped into a few people instead of you've seen a

489
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: white turtle Land cruiser. And it was actually a guy

490
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: called Colin Boyd, I think, one of the people who

491
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: he was camping in the valley who did go into

492
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: bucks camp and see the turtle Land cruiser and he

493
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 2: had to go back out to get phone reception to

494
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: call them. And so when you say the abandoned he

495
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: saw when it was found there was Russell's white turtle

496
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: Land cruiser and just a completely burnt out campsite next

497
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 2: to it, and that was it. Okay, So there was

498
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: someone that had seen that but couldn't report it to

499
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: the police until he got out there. He had to

500
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: get out of the valley, go back up to how

501
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: it planes to be able to get reception to call them.

502
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: I think on his phone he could take a GPS

503
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 2: of where it was. And then very very early morning

504
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 2: the next day again too uniform cops from Mafra I

505
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: think police station went up there and that was the

506
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: first first time police had seen it.

507
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: So they're at that location, they're confronted the remote location,

508
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: they're confronted with Russell's car, abandoned and the tent burnt

509
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: out and all the camping gear thrown into thrown into

510
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: the tent. Yeah, a fairly chaotic, chaotic saint you it's

511
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: hard to interpret what's happened there? Yeah, where do you start?

512
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: Where do you start?

513
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: And you know, at the beginning there was always because

514
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: by then they did know that he'd been camping with

515
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: Carol and that had been an affair that the Hill

516
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: family didn't know about. And so they're thinking, well, is

517
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: have they run.

518
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: Off stage there? At stage?

519
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: There disappearance somehow? But how it had to be another

520
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 2: car somewhere and who was that? If not, what had happened?

521
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: Where were they? Had they just gone walking and got lost?

522
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: But if that was the case, who burnt the camp?

523
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 2: Were they missing? Were they dead?

524
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: Who? No one knew? Do you know what area of

525
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: the police were handling? It was a local police or

526
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: when did it get passed up the line to more

527
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: of a major investigation.

528
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: Was handled initially by well that the first people who

529
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: arrived there were uniform cops from MAFRA. Then it went

530
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: to Sale and the local detectives at Sale and that

531
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: first person in charge of that was Amy Frost and

532
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 2: it was with the local detectives at sale for about

533
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: two to three weeks. But the Missing person squad, and

534
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 2: as saying the book that a lot of people think

535
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: missing persons and you think, well, there's you know, hundreds

536
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 2: of those.

537
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: A year.

538
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: And the missing person squad itself in Victoria is a

539
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: division of homicide. If foul players suspected and there is

540
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: no body, then it's a missing person squad. If there

541
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: is a body, it's homicide. So the Missing person Squad

542
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: knew about this pretty early.

543
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: They were have an overview, they'd.

544
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: Have an overview, they were looking at it. They were

545
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: staying in the loop. And after about two or three

546
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: weeks when the first search and rescue found absolutely nothing.

547
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: So they on that. I would imagine their pole air

548
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: and the four of the drives and.

549
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: Looking they had and they were they were going out

550
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: as you would from the campsite and within one hundred

551
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: meters you're in very dense bush, et cetera. So they

552
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: went five ten k's you know, out that, and they

553
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: had some horsemen from the from the valley. They had

554
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: I think kadava dogs from New South Wales or something

555
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: like that, and they were all looking in that you know,

556
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 2: five ten, fifteen, twenty k circumference from the campsite and

557
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 2: found not nothing, not a not a shoe, not a jumper,

558
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: not a thing. And that's when they said, with we

559
00:27:59,160 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 2: don't know what else we get.

560
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: What do we do? We've done the search, we go

561
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: from here? Where do we go from here? So the

562
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: Missing Person Squad they took over the investigation and then

563
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: what I remember it from the media, I'm assuming it

564
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: was early it started getting released in the appeals through

565
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: the media. Yeah, if anyone seen these.

566
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 2: So the head of the Missing person Squad, Andrew Stamper,

567
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: he had a media a stand up as they call it,

568
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: a day after the Missing Person Squad had officially been

569
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: given the case. And that was the first I said, Well,

570
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: the only thing we can do is try and identify

571
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: everyone who had been in the valley.

572
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: Makes sense, Yeah, but that in itself is Yeah, it's

573
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: not signing into the local club.

574
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: No, yeah, no, it's not easy at all. So it

575
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: had to be an appeal to the public please come forward.

576
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: This was at a point in time where the first

577
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: COVID restrictions had just come into play and people thought

578
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: they are they trying to catch us for being out

579
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: when we should have been at home.

580
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Who's paranoid? I'm not.

581
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 2: So they had to say, look, don't worry about that.

582
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: We're not going to try and.

583
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: With COVID regulations, we just need to find out who

584
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: was in the valley, okay. And they were looking for

585
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: people who would have taken photos on their phone. He

586
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: might have had dash cam on there in their car,

587
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: anyone who could help them figure out all the people

588
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: who'd actually been in there.

589
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: And I would suppose at that stage they don't know

590
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: if it's stephed by misadventure or they still didn't know,

591
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: like it wandered off, they had a fight, they wandered off.

592
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: You just don't you don't know, and it's still the

593
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: proof of life checks weren't showing anything up, so they

594
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: were starting to think it was more likely for out play.

595
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: But it was another few weeks before they could say, look,

596
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: so the bank accounts haven't been used, used phones, and.

597
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: Carol's phone was never found. Russell's phone it was about

598
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: two or three weeks after the camp site was found.

599
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: They did get records back from Telstra that his phone

600
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: had connected to the the Dargo the Dinner Planes mobile

601
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: station in the Hotham station, then Mount Buffalo, so they

602
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: knew his phone had been in those three range of

603
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: those three towers for about twenty thirty minutes or so.

604
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 2: But who knows what that means?

605
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's yeah, okay the strongest you know, someone has

606
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: taken them.

607
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: Has taken the fun Yeah, yeah, that's all. He's got

608
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: the phone or someone else has. Did they just find

609
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: it somewhere and then just drive out and throw it away?

610
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: Where exactly is it?

611
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: So not a lot to go on. And I know

612
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: that the way you've delved into the book and a

613
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: couple of things that the police started looking at and

614
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: looking at it really trying to work out the hypothesis

615
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: of what had happened. What were some of the significant

616
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: events where they thought, okay, this is foul play. When

617
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: do you think they formed that beer? They?

618
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: I guess when they really looked at what had been

619
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: thrown inside the tent to get burned, they were like

620
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: the whole gas barbecue thing, et cetera, the things that

621
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: and the gas bottles themselves.

622
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: It didn't look likely.

623
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: That that Russell and Carroll had burnt that camp site themselves.

624
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: You didn't know why you would do that. Why would

625
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: you put everything inside the tent and then burn everything

626
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: down together? And so just as a hypothesis, they thought

627
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: that someone who's done that is trying to destroy any

628
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: any record of them being there. And even the fact

629
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: that they couldn't find any fingerprints or anything gone to

630
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: that X gone to that extent that they gone, someone's

631
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: done a really good job of cleaning this site up.

632
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: Why would that happen if it wasn't foul play.

633
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm trying to put my homicide hat on and thinking, Okay,

634
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: if you're looking at that, was it an accident that happened?

635
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: Then it certainly didn't look my interpretation of the crime

636
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: scene like it was an accident. Someone was someone had

637
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: done it deliberately. So it's giving you something to work

638
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: with on that factor. People identifying people would have come forward,

639
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: and I'm sure the public would have fawned in and

640
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: talked about different people. Did they have lines of inquiry

641
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: that they were following that they thought might pay dividends.

642
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: They were dealing with some sightings around about there was

643
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: you know, we think we saw Russell and Carroll and

644
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: another place just about thirty forty kilometers away, and they

645
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: had quite a few of those which they could, and

646
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: at your job is to follow all of them up

647
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: just in case. But they all proved explicable by other means.

648
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't rustling Carroll. And although those kept on over

649
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: the next four or five months, someone would ring in

650
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: and say, Oh, they're at a petrol station Wayala, or

651
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 2: they're at a motel in Perth or whatever, but they

652
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: increasingly dismissed all of those, and so they they then

653
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: started they were starting to get reports from people who

654
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: had been in the valley, and in particular, there were

655
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: three weeds brayers who'd spent most of the week in

656
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: the valley there they'd said hi, and few cars, et cetera.

657
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 2: And then they were able to start finding out what

658
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: those cars were, where those people had camped.

659
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: So just to explain to us city dwellers, like weed

660
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: sprays in the yeah, I actually you're talking like you

661
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: grew up in the high country, yeah sprays. No, I haven't.

662
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 2: And in fact, I had a completely wrong view of

663
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: them when I first heard that as well. And it

664
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: wasn't until you know, you hear their full evidence that

665
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: you go, oh, I see, so you're not walking around

666
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: with a little plastic thing on.

667
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: Your back like you are in your backyard.

668
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: They go in there with full wall drives, with massive

669
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: trucks that have hoses hundreds of meters long, and huge

670
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: tanks of three different sprays for blackberries, for ox Hie

671
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: daisies and cape brewm not just that they're trying to

672
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: eliminate over a thirty kilometer square kilometer area massive, So

673
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: that's why they're there for a whole week, so they

674
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: know the area well, and they know the area would.

675
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, people had come through, and we're not talking a

676
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: huge amount of people coming through, are we No.

677
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: In the end, there might have been, you know, twenty fifteen,

678
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, something like that, most of whom had

679
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: snaps from where they camped, et cetera. The first one

680
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: that they sort of from memory, the first one they

681
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: sat back and went, well, that's interesting. It was a

682
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: family who had spoken to the weed sprays. Actually, he

683
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: said they had said to him they were going to

684
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: go back to New South Wales and they were heading

685
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: up via the one and Gata gate at the north

686
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: end of the valley and he thought that was closed,

687
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: and it was because of the bushfires. Two trees had

688
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 2: crashed across that so at the one and Gata river

689
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: that was closed. But the New South Wales family camped

690
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: there and think I will go because once it had

691
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: got to nightfall, very very few.

692
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 1: People drive and turned around and turned back.

693
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they camped there and at two am someone

694
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: else had driven up, had realized that that gate was

695
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: closed and had had to do like a fifteen to

696
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: twenty point U turn and go back again down through

697
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 2: the valley. And that report and they thought so the

698
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: same night that this camp was burnt. They knew from

699
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 2: when it had first been found that that fire had

700
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: happened sometime around about ten o'clock to midnight.

701
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: Okay, we've been a narrow time timeframe.

702
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: And here at two am there was a four well

703
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: drive trying to get out of the north end of

704
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: the valley, not being able to do so you turning

705
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 2: and driving back again when almost no one drives at

706
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 2: that time, at that time of the night. So that's

707
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: the first time they thought a bit suspicious, bit suspicious.

708
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 2: It had no idea what the car was, but it

709
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: sort of fitted the hypothesis that they were building, that

710
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: someone else had burnt that and then someone else was

711
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: trying to get out of the valley.

712
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: And that gate where the roadway was blocked off. How

713
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: far are we looking from the camp site? Ten k Yeah,

714
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: on a rough to rain, on a rough terrain. Yeah.

715
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: But then if they had to go back through the

716
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: wan to go of and then down through the rest

717
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: of the Ourpine National Park to get to Dargo High

718
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: Planes Road, that was like a six eight hour full

719
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: will drive over really rough tracks in the middle of

720
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: the night.

721
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: Okay, dark. So the assumption and this is this is

722
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: this is really getting into That's what I liked about

723
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: the book. So that's what you're presented with. It's not

724
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: evidence on itself. Someone came to a gate that was

725
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: closed and did a U turn. But at that time

726
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: of night and in those conditions, why didn't the person

727
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: like out there just stay there.

728
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: Just stay there and can yeah figure wait till the morning.

729
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not. It's not a matter of oh, I'll

730
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: go ten kilometers down the track and be back in

731
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: the civilization. No, Okay. So that they're they're the type

732
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: of things that I just find fascinating with homicide investigations

733
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: that that just doesn't seem normal. There was a couple

734
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: of other let's call them persons of interest that the

735
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: police looked at my understanding and somewhere with Eastern Europe and.

736
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: Shoot, they did know, yeah, and again from a couple

737
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: of people in the valley and weed sprays again were

738
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: one of them. That there had been two people whose

739
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 2: accident made them sound like they were Eastern European who

740
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: were there to hunt, had asked where they could hunt,

741
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: were armed, had guns, were a bit crazy drivers, you know,

742
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 2: driving fast down through the valley, and a slight yahoo

743
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: element to them, I suppose you might say. And they

744
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: didn't they didn't know where they'd gone by the time

745
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 2: they'd camped near the three weed sprays and when the

746
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: weed sprays had come back on that sort of Friday

747
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 2: night the Easter, two Eastern Europeans had left. Now that

748
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: camp site is about five k's away from Bucks Camp,

749
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: which is where the Rustle and Carroll were. So had

750
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: they gone there or not? And there was you know,

751
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: reports of a white car and that's all that's all

752
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: you had. But they were someone they couldn't find for

753
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 2: a long.

754
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: Time, Okay, Yeah, And that and the fact that you

755
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: can't find them causes you cause you to make Yeah,

756
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: why can't why can't they find them? Why haven't they

757
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: come forward? That type of thing. And there was also

758
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: which is not unique to this investigation, but someone that

759
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: was sort of living off the grid, hermit type character

760
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: and what was what was his story?

761
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: So he's he was known as the button man Button

762
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: because he made buttons out of deerhorns. He would often

763
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 2: be known to be in the in the wan and

764
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: Gata Valley or in the Arpine National Park in camp

765
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 2: there for two, three, four or five months at a time,

766
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: and there were stories about him going back several years.

767
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: The park rangers sawed and knew of him and sort

768
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: of knew where most of his spots were, but no

769
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: one had had long chats with him, because if the

770
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: whole point of him being there was he wanted to

771
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: be on his own.

772
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: But he.

773
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: On the one hand, he didn't have a known history

774
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: of violence toward campus, but he did several scary things.

775
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: And his ability to sort of to their camps at

776
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: night time and you know, use their equipment, take photos,

777
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: et cetera, without them knowing he'd ever been there, just

778
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 2: gave people he that was.

779
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: I think you've reminded me of something in the book

780
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: where people have woken up and he's been there taking

781
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: a fato on the camera.

782
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: He's taken a selfie on their phone of him holding

783
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: a knife inside their tent while they're asleep.

784
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: Why would that freak terrified?

785
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: So so he did things like that to try and

786
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: scare people away, and it is pretty scary, but there

787
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: was there was no evidence he had actually gone further

788
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: than that, and and in the end, they took a

789
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 2: while to find him. And you know, as I say

790
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 2: in the book, one of the things I hadn't quite

791
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: you know, because you hear in the abbreviated form when

792
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 2: you get the evidence laid down the train and go, oh,

793
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: we checked him with the with the button man, and

794
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: we could eliminate him. It turns out that we checked

795
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: him with the button man took days that had to

796
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 2: find where the hell he was first. Then they realized

797
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 2: that his answers so well set up that he could

798
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: see them coming from Columbus away, so he just piss off. Yeah,

799
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: So it was yeah, so actually organizing things so they

800
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: could actually sit down and talk to him was quite complicated.

801
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: And when they did finally and as they did with

802
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: everyone including Greg and the air go have a chat

803
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: ask him what he was up to, et cetera. And

804
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: that's when they found out, Oh, you know, I've I've

805
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: got a place in Essendon and I was down there.

806
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: Oh so you don't live here full time? No, no, no,

807
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: So he'd come there for months, but he also had

808
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 2: a place in the north of Melbourne, and his phone

809
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: records backed up everything you said. And phone records get

810
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: people out of a lot of trouble as well as

811
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: getting a lot of trouble.

812
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 1: One inculpatory or exculpatory. Yees, yeah, here's my faint. So

813
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: how did Greg Lynn come into the picture? How did he?

814
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: While they were while I was still thinking about the

815
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: report of the the car that hadne you turned and

816
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: driven back through the at two am, they were going

817
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: back to the Telstra records and they'd asked telt if

818
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: they could have any more details on they All they

819
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: knew was what towels that phone had connected to. You

820
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: can actually find an awful lot of detail out about phones,

821
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: but you need to do the math and that can

822
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: take ages. You know, you've got to find people for

823
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 2: free to do it. In the end, it took it

824
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: took them, I don't know about nine ten months before

825
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: they finally had you know, the full true call data

826
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: which pinpointed exactly where the phone where when it bounces

827
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: off this hour and the top Yeah, and they can

828
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 2: tell the distance like radar et cetera, and they and

829
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: it bounces off, but that's deep in the metadata. At

830
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: a month or two into the into the investigation, all

831
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: they had was the three towers into connected to for

832
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: that twenty or thirty minutes. But it wasn't a stupid

833
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: assumption that the phone had been moving. That's why it

834
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: went from one tower to the other to the other.

835
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: So it'd been traveling up this way. And if it

836
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 2: had come from our National Park then it would have

837
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: gone along a road called Dargo High Planes Road and

838
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: then on the Great Alpine Road. And they were mostly

839
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: thinking about the two Eastern Europeans who they knew had

840
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 2: come from New South Wales, but they knew nothing else

841
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: about them, and they were hoping to find a petrol

842
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: station that they'd filled up at that they'd used a

843
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: credit card something something. As they were driving, they had

844
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: no idea these an PR cameras existed because they're private

845
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 2: ones owned by the Howtham Ski Resort. And as they

846
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: were driving down Great Airpine Road. They just saw them

847
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: and that was Brett Florence and Canvas and they just

848
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: pulled over. What the hell are these?

849
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: So these are cameras in the middle of nowhere that

850
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: focusing on the.

851
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: Roadway, facing on the roadway. They're not vic Roads cameras.

852
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,919
Speaker 2: They're just on the Great Alpine Road, you know, way

853
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 2: up in northern Victoria. And well, who's those? And then

854
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: they realized they were the Hotham Resort cameras, and Hotham

855
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: used them to make sure that, you know, people didn't

856
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: try and escape without paying. Okay, So they and there's

857
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 2: there's there's one set to the left of Dargo Highplanes

858
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: Road and another set heading southeast. And they were looking

859
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: for someone who had driven up Dargo Highplanes Road and

860
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: gone down the Great Alpine Road. And at around about

861
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 2: the same time as they knew that Russell's phone had

862
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: connected moving long.

863
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: The towers that town.

864
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: And although they needed a lot more math before they

865
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: could stand up and court and say we know the

866
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: phone was in that car, it was a good enough

867
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 2: guess to go, well, it's a strong likelihood if there

868
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: was a car going through the cameras at that time.

869
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: Now they didn't know.

870
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: There could have been ten cameras going through, sorry, ten

871
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: cars going through the cameras at that time fifteen twenty

872
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: who knew. As it happened at that hour on Saturday morning,

873
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: and this is just before the first lockdown, there was

874
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 2: only one car that had driven up Dargo Highplanes Road

875
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: and left in the Great Airpine Road and that was Gregg.

876
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So they had the number plate, They had the.

877
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: Number plate from the number plate recognition camera system. They

878
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: ran the check and it was a guy called Greg

879
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 2: Lynn who lived in Carolyn Springs, who they'd never heard

880
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: of before in their lives, and they went, who's this.

881
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: So, looking at it from a police point of view,

882
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: you get that name and you'd start to have a look,

883
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: who is this person? So let's describe Greg what the

884
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: police would have known about him in the early times.

885
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: Well, what they found out about him was that he

886
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: was living there with his second wife and the kids

887
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: from the first marriage and the second marriage were there

888
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: a nice upper middle class home in suburban Melbourne. He

889
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: worked for Jetstar. He was a check pilot, which is

890
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: a very high position. You're the guy who checks that

891
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: all the other pilots are doing the right job, so

892
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 2: very high paying. It was somewhere three fifty four hundred

893
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: grand a year, very high paying, white collar job. Professional.

894
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: He has a job like that, he's held it down

895
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: and he's been a responsible member of community. Why on

896
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: earth would he be someone who had no connection with

897
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 2: Russell or Carroll?

898
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: What? What could it mean?

899
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: What what?

900
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: What possible motive? What possible motive could he have? And

901
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: yet you know, it looked like they couldn't yet prove it,

902
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: but it looked like Russell's Fonne had been in his car,

903
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: and you.

904
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: Go, well, you could just have easily just picked it up.

905
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 2: You don't know until until you speak, until you speak

906
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, And so that's why the July fourteenth date,

907
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: I'd never read it again and again and again. That's

908
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 2: when they decided to do what you know, as you

909
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: would know, the first step is in a lot of investigations,

910
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: which is just go talk to someone, ask them what

911
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: they were doing, listen to them, get them to commit

912
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 2: to a story, and then come back and see can

913
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: we corroborate it?

914
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about that before we sat down for

915
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: the podcast. And that's that's a there's a gray area like,

916
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: I thought, that's quite reasonable that we've got his car

917
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: going through a camera, we've got details of the phone

918
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: that haven't been confirmed. I wouldn't calling him a suspect.

919
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: Person of interest might be the different level, and that

920
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: becomes a debate, that becomes a big point down the track,

921
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: Well what do you mean by a person of interest?

922
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: What do you mean by a suspect? But I think

923
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: it's reasonable, and I think yeah, it's reasonable for police

924
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: to be able to go and ask a person questions

925
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 1: without saying, hey, we're looking at you for a murder,

926
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: we're cautioning you. Just tell us where you are. He

927
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 1: might have said, well, actually I was over in the

928
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: overseas on the day driving the car. Yeah.

929
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: All they knew was his car had been on the

930
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: Great Our Plane Road, and so all they were asking

931
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: him to do was can you just let us know

932
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: your movements for those a few days.

933
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: What did he provide to them at that time?

934
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: Very cool, very calm, He said, yeah, yeah, he'd gone,

935
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: He said, I left here. I think it was on

936
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: the Monday, camped up at how It Planes, which is

937
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: the last big camping spot before you head down into

938
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: the one and Gata valley in our Pine National Park.

939
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: He'd gone into one and Gate of Valley. He'd camped

940
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: somewhere on the Wednesday night, and he's ever, he was

941
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: never terribly specific about where that was up in the

942
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: north end, somewhere, et cetera. Then moved about ten k's

943
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: you know, south on the Thursday night, a bit close

944
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 2: to the river, something like that, and then on Friday

945
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: went for a bit of a hunt in the morning,

946
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: didn't find anything, packed up, left the valley and went

947
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: down the Crooked River Track, which is down into the

948
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: rest of the Alpine National Park, and about lunchtime on Friday,

949
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: camp there. Friday night, went to Dargo High Plains Road,

950
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: he actually said, followed the Crooked River Track to Dargo

951
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 2: High Planes Road and then drove out on the Saturday morning.

952
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 2: Now all of that makes perfect sense with what the

953
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: police actually.

954
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: Knew, and hard to fact check as well, very.

955
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: Hard to fact check because he gave them he said

956
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: he hadn't he hadn't met anybody, hadn't communicated with anybody.

957
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: He was just enjoying his own company, camping and hunting

958
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: in the One and go A valley.

959
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: And just let's talk the hunting for a sec too,

960
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: because that's a big part of it that people in

961
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: the city mightn't appreciate. But a lot of hunters go

962
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: down there.

963
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: That's that's a lot of the reason for going.

964
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

965
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So some of them, like Russell and Carroll go

966
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: just to be in the wilderness and the bush. At

967
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: least half of them were there to hunt, and that's allowed.

968
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: You know, you need the proper license, so you need

969
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: a hunter's license, and you need a gun license, and

970
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: the park rangers to check that. They check Greg he

971
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 2: had done two shotguns with him. He had a ruga

972
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: rifle and his breath and Arms shotgun. But that wasn't unusual.

973
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 2: It's not like that's a red flag because half the

974
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 2: people there.

975
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: It's like, if they were there in the ski season,

976
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: why are you here because I'm skiing? Yeah? Yeah, So

977
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: it leaves them in a difficult position, doesn't it. With

978
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: that the other thing that came from that, and again

979
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: it was in your book, but again the thinking, and

980
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: that's where I like the way that you're getting inside

981
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: the mind of police investigating matters like that. They turned

982
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: up under the out Citi's place, so it was like

983
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: put him on notice. Hey, but you can't find him,

984
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: and you've got to phone him. We want to speak

985
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: to you about such and such, where he's got time

986
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: to prepare himself. So the police are making, which is

987
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: quite right, making an assessment of well, he seemed pretty

988
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: calm on the surface.

989
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: He was very calm, and he explained it all without

990
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 2: missing a beat.

991
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he wasn't rattled, not rattled at all, Because

992
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: there are signs that you look out for. If I

993
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: knock on the door to speak the greg and I

994
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: suspect you of a crime, and.

995
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: You're there and I'm going fuck, and you run out the.

996
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: Back shaking as you're trying to drink a glass of water,

997
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: I'd be going, okay, well something's going on.

998
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: But there was none of that, none of that. And

999
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: even when they noticed he painted his car and asked

1000
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: about that, I was just a lockdown project, you know,

1001
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: through some bush brushes at my son's and to get

1002
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: the outside and we painted the car.

1003
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: See that in itself, if a car has been involved

1004
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: in a crime, I'm thinking, okay. If they tried to

1005
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: change the car, but he weaved in a story, that's

1006
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: almost like there'd be a I can imagine in the

1007
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: incident room with the cops. There be a debate going

1008
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: WORLL did strange stuff when we're lockdown in lockdown, and

1009
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: that played the big part too. Just for the investigation.

1010
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: I can only imagine what they were going through with

1011
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: people working from home and trying to keep this guy.

1012
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: It was snowborn. Yeah, it was. It was difficult, very difficult,

1013
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: and it was right right in the in the middle

1014
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: throughout the whole investigation. They had those massive lockdowns in Melbourne.

1015
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that one, you know, when they knocked on

1016
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 2: his on his door, was about four or five days

1017
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: into the into the second lockdown, which was the big one,

1018
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: went for about one hundred and eleven days, So it

1019
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: was a very surprising visit and he was completely unrattled.

1020
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: So you walk away going, well, was he involved or not? Yeah, Now,

1021
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: when you're in court two years later, in hindsight, you

1022
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 2: go with all you had all the clues to put

1023
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: it together there. But at the time, yeah, there were

1024
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: so many possible explanations.

1025
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: And I as I was reading through the book, I'm thinking,

1026
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: that's reasonable, that's reasonable. I'm looking at it every step

1027
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: that they're taking. I was quite impressed by some of

1028
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 1: the stuff they were doing as an investigation. We might

1029
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: take a break here and leave the listeners as confused

1030
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: as the police were at that particular time, absolutely as

1031
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: what they've got. But the next part, when we come

1032
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: back for part two, we'll see how the investigation played

1033
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: out and how it all unraveled, which is quite fascinating

1034
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: in itself. Cool,