1 00:00:04,110 --> 00:00:06,719 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview, I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,959 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. The last couple of years has seen an enormous 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,510 Sean Aylmer: amount of speculation about the future of work and what 4 00:00:12,510 --> 00:00:17,220 Sean Aylmer: the workplace should look like. There's plenty of workplace experts 5 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:19,500 Sean Aylmer: out there, but my guest today has actually done it, 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,870 Sean Aylmer: helping transform major organizations ranging from banks to broadcasters. Katherine 7 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:28,740 Sean Aylmer: Divett is the CEO of workplace and people consultancy Puzzle 8 00:00:28,740 --> 00:00:30,690 Sean Aylmer: Partners. Katherine, welcome to Fear and Greed. 9 00:00:31,230 --> 00:00:32,250 Katherine Divett: Thanks for having me, Sean. 10 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:34,290 Sean Aylmer: Upfront, is the office dead? 11 00:00:35,220 --> 00:00:37,560 Katherine Divett: I think that's a great question and I think absolutely 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,470 Katherine Divett: not. I think we need to work out what the 13 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:42,990 Katherine Divett: office needs to be. I don't think it's the same 14 00:00:42,990 --> 00:00:44,970 Katherine Divett: as it used to be, but it's definitely not dead. 15 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:49,710 Sean Aylmer: So when we have these discussions, everyone talks about hybrid 16 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:53,490 Sean Aylmer: working, remote working, we probably don't talk a lot about 17 00:00:53,490 --> 00:00:57,030 Sean Aylmer: workplace design, not as much. Should we be talking more 18 00:00:57,030 --> 00:01:01,860 Sean Aylmer: about workplace design and letting hybrid working sort itself out? 19 00:01:02,970 --> 00:01:05,039 Katherine Divett: So first of all, I think hybrid's going to very 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,920 Katherine Divett: quickly become a swear word. It is a part of 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,030 Katherine Divett: a broader consideration around flexible working as is the physical 22 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:14,580 Katherine Divett: place. I think the things that we are going to 23 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:17,850 Katherine Divett: need, and want, and value in the physical workplace are 24 00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:22,110 Katherine Divett: changing, and then moving away from, everybody needs an individual 25 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:24,390 Katherine Divett: desk that they use because they come to the office 26 00:01:24,390 --> 00:01:27,930 Katherine Divett: five days a week, to the kinds of spaces that 27 00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:30,090 Katherine Divett: we want to have to connect, and to collaborate, and 28 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:32,910 Katherine Divett: really do things together as humans, doing things we come 29 00:01:32,910 --> 00:01:34,830 Katherine Divett: to the office to do. And some of the other 30 00:01:34,830 --> 00:01:36,870 Katherine Divett: things that we traditionally would've done at a desk we 31 00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:38,400 Katherine Divett: now do at home, and we like doing that. 32 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,220 Sean Aylmer: I don't like to say hot- desking. 33 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:41,430 Katherine Divett: Please don't. 34 00:01:41,430 --> 00:01:44,370 Sean Aylmer: I used to use term hot-desking and people get very upset when I 35 00:01:44,370 --> 00:01:49,860 Sean Aylmer: say that. Collaborative spaces, joint workspaces, however we are describing it, 36 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,660 Sean Aylmer: that had all started pre-COVID though. In terms of cost efficiencies, 37 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:57,180 Sean Aylmer: people were doing that simply because you could have a 38 00:01:57,180 --> 00:02:01,020 Sean Aylmer: smaller footprint in an office building. Where has that evolved 39 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:01,740 Sean Aylmer: to today? 40 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,240 Katherine Divett: So let's disabuse everyone of hot- desking to start with. 41 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:09,450 Katherine Divett: It can work really well as a non- assigned seating 42 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:14,880 Katherine Divett: strategy for high- volume sales call centers, for disaster recovery, 43 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,990 Katherine Divett: hot sites. Hot- desking is an approach where there's lots 44 00:02:18,990 --> 00:02:21,660 Katherine Divett: and lots of desks that are identical and not very 45 00:02:21,660 --> 00:02:24,720 Katherine Divett: much else in the workspace, kitchen if you're lucky. If 46 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,350 Katherine Divett: you think about a non- assigned seating approach, you've got 47 00:02:28,350 --> 00:02:31,139 Katherine Divett: a much more shared environment. So you also have a 48 00:02:31,139 --> 00:02:34,290 Katherine Divett: lot of different kinds of settings. So you can have 49 00:02:34,290 --> 00:02:37,710 Katherine Divett: more collaborative spaces, you can have better breakout spaces, you 50 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:40,230 Katherine Divett: can have better retreat spaces, and you can have a 51 00:02:40,230 --> 00:02:46,770 Katherine Divett: much more refined and resolved meeting arrangement as well. In 52 00:02:46,770 --> 00:02:49,620 Katherine Divett: a non- assigned environment, what we're doing is allocating less 53 00:02:49,620 --> 00:02:53,820 Katherine Divett: of the space to individual desks and more of the 54 00:02:53,820 --> 00:02:58,650 Katherine Divett: space to places that people would come together, and meet, 55 00:02:58,740 --> 00:03:00,570 Katherine Divett: and collaborate, and connect. 56 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,980 Sean Aylmer: I get that in theory, but if you think of 57 00:03:05,130 --> 00:03:08,910 Sean Aylmer: the clients you've worked with over 20 years or so, 58 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:13,500 Sean Aylmer: do they know today what they want in a workspace 59 00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:15,480 Sean Aylmer: as well as they knew five years ago or 10 60 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:16,080 Sean Aylmer: years ago? 61 00:03:16,590 --> 00:03:19,440 Katherine Divett: I think the conversation is evolving, and the world is 62 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,860 Katherine Divett: evolving very rapidly as well. Starting from, what are you 63 00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:26,130 Katherine Divett: trying to achieve is a really good place. What's the 64 00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:28,920 Katherine Divett: purpose of the organisation? What is your mission, if you like? 65 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:32,880 Katherine Divett: How important are the way that people want to come 66 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,740 Katherine Divett: and work with you, and the way that people work 67 00:03:34,740 --> 00:03:38,160 Katherine Divett: in the space to your organisation? And there's different answers 68 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,360 Katherine Divett: for different organisations. I think it is a little bit simplistic to 69 00:03:42,390 --> 00:03:44,400 Katherine Divett: take an approach of, we want to do what everybody 70 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,290 Katherine Divett: else is doing, because I don't think that there is 71 00:03:46,290 --> 00:03:50,910 Katherine Divett: a one- size answer. For organisations who need to be 72 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:53,910 Katherine Divett: in the office, if you think about people who support 000, 73 00:03:54,750 --> 00:03:57,810 Katherine Divett: that technology requires that you're physically present. If you think 74 00:03:57,810 --> 00:04:02,520 Katherine Divett: about people who work in contact centres that don't require technology, 75 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,900 Katherine Divett: that they're all in the office, it might be a 76 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:07,500 Katherine Divett: very different arrangement. Whereas the thing that we have learned 77 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:11,850 Katherine Divett: through the unintended global workplace experiment that the COVID pandemic 78 00:04:11,850 --> 00:04:14,070 Katherine Divett: gave us is that there's lots and lots of things 79 00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:17,039 Katherine Divett: that you can do remotely, but people fundamentally want to 80 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,849 Katherine Divett: be together sometimes as well, and creating spaces and reasons 81 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:24,330 Katherine Divett: for organisations that support that is incredibly important. 82 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:27,330 Sean Aylmer: It seems to me that the focus has become much 83 00:04:27,330 --> 00:04:31,619 Sean Aylmer: more on people vis- a-vis process as a result of 84 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:35,610 Sean Aylmer: pandemic. People have more power in what they want to do. 85 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:41,159 Katherine Divett: I think that's probably fair. I think people have learned 86 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,110 Katherine Divett: that there's a whole bunch of things that are possible 87 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:46,529 Katherine Divett: that they didn't necessarily think could work in a virtual 88 00:04:46,529 --> 00:04:50,070 Katherine Divett: world previously. And guess what? We like it. But we've 89 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:53,190 Katherine Divett: also learned that to come to the office, or to 90 00:04:53,190 --> 00:04:58,080 Katherine Divett: be present, intentionally, together, gives us opportunities for people who 91 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,930 Katherine Divett: are new to organisation, or who are knew to career, or 92 00:05:00,930 --> 00:05:03,690 Katherine Divett: who are new to role, for all of that incidental 93 00:05:03,690 --> 00:05:06,870 Katherine Divett: learning about how the organisation works, and how we do 94 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:09,299 Katherine Divett: things around here. And we've also learned there's no better 95 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:11,670 Katherine Divett: place to do that than being physically present in the office. 96 00:05:12,450 --> 00:05:14,279 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Katherine, and we'll be back in a 97 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:14,609 Sean Aylmer: minute. 98 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:26,400 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Katherine Divett, CEO of Puzzle Partners. So 99 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,609 Sean Aylmer: how does management get people to come into the office? 100 00:05:29,610 --> 00:05:31,500 Sean Aylmer: Because there are still people who do not want to 101 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:34,080 Sean Aylmer: come in at all, and I have worked in some 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,220 Sean Aylmer: organizations which are acquiring two days a week, maybe it's 103 00:05:38,220 --> 00:05:41,789 Sean Aylmer: five days or fortnight, whatever. I think we're through the 104 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:47,820 Sean Aylmer: table tennis free lunch phase, but maybe we're not. But 105 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:49,469 Sean Aylmer: how do management get people to come in? 106 00:05:50,460 --> 00:05:52,950 Katherine Divett: There's some great questions wrapped up in there, Sean. So 107 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:55,410 Katherine Divett: we've gone through the arms race, if you like, of 108 00:05:55,410 --> 00:05:57,030 Katherine Divett: who's got the best perks. 109 00:05:58,380 --> 00:05:59,730 Sean Aylmer: Google won, you know that, don't you? 110 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:02,070 Katherine Divett: Well, they were in it to win it. But I 111 00:06:02,070 --> 00:06:05,820 Katherine Divett: also think having seen Silicon Valley in the mid- teens 112 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:08,460 Katherine Divett: of this century, it was very much, who's got the 113 00:06:08,460 --> 00:06:11,820 Katherine Divett: best perks? And you saw people being attracted to the 114 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:14,909 Katherine Divett: next organisation based on the shiny new things. What that 115 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:19,919 Katherine Divett: does is create almost a transactional interaction, if you like, and 116 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,170 Katherine Divett: that doesn't help. Whereas if you are really clear about, together, 117 00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:27,630 Katherine Divett: here are the things that matter in our organisation, and 118 00:06:27,630 --> 00:06:30,419 Katherine Divett: give people a say in how they want to work together, 119 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:32,549 Katherine Divett: and how they want to use those spaces and how 120 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:35,550 Katherine Divett: they want to collaborate, it's the "I care" effect. So 121 00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:37,710 Katherine Divett: once you've been part of building something, you've got a 122 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:41,820 Katherine Divett: much stronger connection to it. And that equally holds not just for 123 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:44,910 Katherine Divett: lovely flat pack furniture, but it equally holds for when 124 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:46,710 Katherine Divett: you are designing how you want to work together in 125 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:50,070 Katherine Divett: your organisation. That's not to say it's a free for all, 126 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:53,580 Katherine Divett: and employees should have every say, and management should just 127 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,040 Katherine Divett: suck it up and do that. I think there's a 128 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,940 Katherine Divett: really nice approach where we can say, " Here is the 129 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:04,140 Katherine Divett: mission of the organisation. Here are the boundary conditions of 130 00:07:04,140 --> 00:07:06,570 Katherine Divett: the conversation, if you like. So here are the things 131 00:07:06,570 --> 00:07:09,300 Katherine Divett: that we will and won't do. Now, within that context, 132 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,280 Katherine Divett: how do we want to do that together?" It's a 133 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,990 Katherine Divett: very different set of beautiful questions than management popping away 134 00:07:15,990 --> 00:07:18,330 Katherine Divett: to an office, deciding what the answer will be, and 135 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:20,820 Katherine Divett: then coming back and saying, " Here is what it will be, 136 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,120 Katherine Divett: and thou shalt." Humans don't like being told what to do, 137 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:26,550 Katherine Divett: but if we ask people how they want to do 138 00:07:26,550 --> 00:07:28,230 Katherine Divett: it together, it's a very different result. 139 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:32,850 Sean Aylmer: And have you seen companies in Australia doing that now? 140 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:37,320 Katherine Divett: Absolutely. We've got clients that we are working with, some 141 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,370 Katherine Divett: of whom have had real success with an approach, even 142 00:07:41,370 --> 00:07:45,210 Katherine Divett: through the deep dark lockdown days of the pandemic, around 143 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:47,970 Katherine Divett: how do we want to work together, engaging their people 144 00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:51,989 Katherine Divett: in the conversation, identifying what the important things are that 145 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,929 Katherine Divett: the process and the policy would hang off, and then 146 00:07:54,930 --> 00:07:57,300 Katherine Divett: going back and checking in with people how that was working. 147 00:07:57,750 --> 00:08:01,200 Katherine Divett: We worked with one organisation who's a financial services company 148 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,330 Katherine Divett: through the pandemic, who actually increased workplace satisfaction without making 149 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:10,080 Katherine Divett: fundamental changes in the workplace by asking people how they 150 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,340 Katherine Divett: wanted to use it and share it. 151 00:08:12,510 --> 00:08:16,890 Sean Aylmer: Are there some factors that just keep popping up as 152 00:08:16,890 --> 00:08:22,140 Sean Aylmer: being integral to a successful workplace with people being happy? 153 00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:27,720 Katherine Divett: Absolutely. So, in this rapidly changing world that we are working in, 154 00:08:27,990 --> 00:08:32,280 Katherine Divett: people are looking for certainty. Will there be space for 155 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,620 Katherine Divett: me to work? Will the people I'm looking for or 156 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:37,500 Katherine Divett: wanting to work with be there when I'm there? Is 157 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:39,720 Katherine Divett: it going to be safe and reliable, and how do 158 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,230 Katherine Divett: I assure myself of that? I want to be trusted 159 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:46,380 Katherine Divett: to do my job and to get to the outcome 160 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:48,870 Katherine Divett: rather than being measured on attendance, am I sitting at 161 00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:51,900 Katherine Divett: my desk, even if I'm online shopping? And people are 162 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:56,160 Katherine Divett: also wanting to be part of the conversation around what 163 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,979 Katherine Divett: are we achieving in terms of outcomes for the organisation, 164 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:01,559 Katherine Divett: rather than just being measured on the process. 165 00:09:02,429 --> 00:09:04,170 Sean Aylmer: So what's the size of the prize? Or maybe a 166 00:09:04,170 --> 00:09:06,150 Sean Aylmer: better way of putting this question, what happens if you 167 00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:08,250 Sean Aylmer: don't do it? What if you do have a more 168 00:09:08,250 --> 00:09:11,790 Sean Aylmer: command and control environment and you are saying to people 169 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:13,110 Sean Aylmer: that you have to be in the office at certain 170 00:09:13,110 --> 00:09:16,230 Sean Aylmer: times and we would prefer you to punch in. And 171 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:20,250 Sean Aylmer: I suppose I'm talking about white collar jobs here because 172 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:24,120 Sean Aylmer: many jobs are necessary that you're actually in the workplace. 173 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:27,990 Sean Aylmer: But what happens if you don't change your ways? 174 00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:31,740 Katherine Divett: Then you are going to end up with people who 175 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:34,380 Katherine Divett: like working that way, and that's not a bad thing, 176 00:09:34,740 --> 00:09:36,990 Katherine Divett: or you are going to lose people who don't want 177 00:09:36,990 --> 00:09:38,670 Katherine Divett: to work that way, which might be a bad thing. 178 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:42,390 Katherine Divett: So in the current economic environment we're working in, people 179 00:09:42,390 --> 00:09:46,590 Katherine Divett: have more choice and we are seeing people make employer 180 00:09:46,590 --> 00:09:50,069 Katherine Divett: decisions based on the level of flexibility that employers are offering, 181 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:54,870 Katherine Divett: even in adjacent industries. So that is making a difference 182 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:57,990 Katherine Divett: in terms of how the talent conversation is going to happen, 183 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:00,780 Katherine Divett: and how the talent pool is going to be available 184 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,690 Katherine Divett: to particular organisations. The prize is very much around finding 185 00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:10,350 Katherine Divett: the right balance between what your organisation needs and wants, 186 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:12,809 Katherine Divett: and what the people who you are wanting to work 187 00:10:12,809 --> 00:10:15,809 Katherine Divett: in your organisation are looking for. And that really is 188 00:10:15,809 --> 00:10:18,960 Katherine Divett: going to manifest in some really interesting ways for people 189 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,780 Katherine Divett: who are managers now and who have come up through 190 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:24,630 Katherine Divett: the ranks based on a known set of framework and 191 00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:28,800 Katherine Divett: criteria in the known world, and that's fundamentally changed. So 192 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,689 Katherine Divett: for people, leaders and managers who have learned how to 193 00:10:34,350 --> 00:10:37,680 Katherine Divett: come through, if you like, with a process- based approach, 194 00:10:38,070 --> 00:10:40,590 Katherine Divett: we are going to need to really think about capability 195 00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:44,250 Katherine Divett: and confidence when it comes to leading people in a disparate, 196 00:10:44,309 --> 00:10:48,720 Katherine Divett: geographically dispersed virtual and physical world. And that sounds really 197 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,900 Katherine Divett: scary and alarmist. It's actually possible to do. It's just 198 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:55,020 Katherine Divett: a set of skilling and training that we're going to need, 199 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:58,320 Katherine Divett: as well as understanding the questions that organisations need to 200 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,809 Katherine Divett: ask around purpose, mission, and talent. 201 00:11:01,890 --> 00:11:06,000 Sean Aylmer: My final question, does technology matter? And I have to 202 00:11:06,179 --> 00:11:09,690 Sean Aylmer: put some context on this. We all have Zoom, we 203 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:13,439 Sean Aylmer: all have technology that allows us to communicate and be 204 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,719 Sean Aylmer: part of a workplace, even though you might be living a 205 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,530 Sean Aylmer: long way away. Is that just table stakes now or 206 00:11:20,070 --> 00:11:22,679 Sean Aylmer: is technology a reason that people want to change jobs 207 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:23,790 Sean Aylmer: and work in certain ways? 208 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,949 Katherine Divett: Through the pandemic, we saw real discrepancies between organisations who 209 00:11:28,950 --> 00:11:32,309 Katherine Divett: were already capable of working in flexible mobile ways and 210 00:11:32,309 --> 00:11:37,199 Katherine Divett: those who weren't. The discussion around which platform you use 211 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,360 Katherine Divett: and how agnostic you are about the platform and what 212 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,140 Katherine Divett: the security considerations of that are, I think will continue. 213 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:48,570 Katherine Divett: But creating connection that is frictionless, that is consistent, that 214 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:52,559 Katherine Divett: is easily accessible is table stakes. The piece that really 215 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:59,250 Katherine Divett: will set organisations apart is around having the organisational capability, 216 00:11:59,309 --> 00:12:03,449 Katherine Divett: the cultural permissions, and the confidence of the people participating 217 00:12:03,809 --> 00:12:06,599 Katherine Divett: to understand the etiquette around how that might work, to 218 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,689 Katherine Divett: make sure that it continues to be inclusive and people 219 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,230 Katherine Divett: understand how to participate in that hybrid environment. 220 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:15,959 Sean Aylmer: It's all about people really, isn't it, Katherine? 221 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,390 Katherine Divett: It is absolutely all about people. If you put people 222 00:12:18,390 --> 00:12:23,070 Katherine Divett: at the centre and then enable with technology, with workplace, 223 00:12:23,070 --> 00:12:28,020 Katherine Divett: with culture, and with confidence, I think there's a real 224 00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:29,250 Katherine Divett: sweet spot there for Australia. 225 00:12:29,820 --> 00:12:31,800 Sean Aylmer: Katherine, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 226 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:33,420 Katherine Divett: Thanks very much for having me. 227 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:37,679 Sean Aylmer: That was Katherine Divett, CEO of workplace and people consultancy, 228 00:12:37,710 --> 00:12:40,470 Sean Aylmer: Puzzle Partners. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. 229 00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:42,720 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 230 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,380 Sean Aylmer: and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, 231 00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:47,340 Sean Aylmer: enjoy your day.