WEBVTT - Part 2: The politics and pushback 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.880 This is part two of a two part episode. If 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:05.080 you haven't already, you can go back and listen to 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:12.719 Victoria's historic treaty that's in your feed now. Indigenous leaders 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.959 across the country have welcomed Victoria's first Treaty. The legislation 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.520 will enshrine a democratically elected body for First peoples called 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.040 Gillingwall that will be consulted on laws and policies affecting 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.560 Indigenous communities and now there are calls for other states 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.400 and territories to use the Victorian example as a model 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.680 to establish their own treaties. But there's also predictably pushback, 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.159 with critics calling it costly and divisive in claims that 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.720 echo the voice debate, and state and territory leaders across 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.479 the country are walking away from previous promises and commitments. Today, 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.760 writer and seven AM co host Daniel James, who was 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.320 also one of the authors of the europe Commission, reports 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.560 on whether Victoria's treaty marks a turning point or an anomaly. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.160 Daniel Australia's first Treaty was introduced into parliament this week 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.360 in Victoria. How significant is this moment? 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.160 Well, it's the only time in the history of the 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.280 entire country that our treaty has been introduced into a 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.040 state or federal parliament. It has been in the back 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:20.240 of decades of work, but in a formal sense, in 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.640 terms of the actual process of getting this treaty to 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.800 this point, It's been at least six years. It has 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:33.240 survived two elections, it has gone through a pandemic, it 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.480 has gone through a very divisive referendum. But despite all that, 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.640 the First People Assembly, in its two iterations, have gotten 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.399 us to this point and it is a It was 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.080 a remarkable day for everyone that has either paid close 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.120 interest to this or been involved in it. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.880 It didn't take long though, for criticism to appear in 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:57.080 some media outlets. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.880 This treaty legislation is a slap in the face to 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:03.600 the majority Victorians who less than two years ago voted 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.280 no to Labour's Voice to Parliament, isn't it? 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.120 On Sky we heard people start to say that the 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.200 Victorian government is quote pandering to a minority and. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.799 As usual, Victoria is way out in front in another 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:21.440 example of pandering to a minority in favor of the majority. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.720 Singling out in particular things like the changes to the 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.120 curriculum that will be introduced and changes to place names. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.720 Have a look at this barry Yip Primary. Now you 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:35.359 say it apparently bar ray Yip. Now you've got Cuym 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.680 Primary in Pakenham. It's pronounced kuyim. You've got Mini. 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.160 Did you expect that kind of commentary? 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.880 Yeah, it's sadly predictable because it's pretty much or they've 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:48.760 really gotten their kit in terms of being able to 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.000 attack processes like this. They are ostensibly a bunch of 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:52.920 One Creek ponies. 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:54.399 When it comes. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.120 To the idea of the first Nations people here being 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.040 a minority. Yes, we are a minority, but we are 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.320 a minority that we're here for fifty thousand years, and 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:10.480 when colonialism came here, we're a minority that had our 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.640 land stolen, our waterways desecrated. We were the result of 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:21.400 policies of eradication, both formal and informal. We were the 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:24.800 victims of massacres. We were the victims of disease and 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.520 alcohol that was brought here. The tremendous wealth that was 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.160 created in this place through things like the gold Rush. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.359 Oboriginal people never saw, even though it was the plundering 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.840 of their land that resulted in that the billions of 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.000 dollars that have been generated through our waterways and land 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.360 and skies. We've never seen a cent of We were 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:49.480 deprived of our rights, and so yes, we are a minority, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.080 but we also are the first peoples of this place, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.320 and this treaty and the truth telling process you work 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.880 before it is a reckoning of that, and it shows 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.880 a state that is mature enough and bold enough to 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:07.080 be able to deal with these particular issues in a 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:12.000 mature and forensic but also incredibly nuanced way. And so 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.760 the response from sections of the media was entirely predictable, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.040 trying to conflate it with things like the referendum, which 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.880 is a completely different thing. This is it, this is 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.240 what's happening, and if people want to conflate that with 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.919 the referendum result for political purposes, then we'll wave to 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.920 them as we go over the hill and down the road. 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.479 We even heard some voices saying that this treaty should 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.400 be put to a state referendum, much like the voice. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.000 What this shows is that the elites in this society 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:46.640 don't care what you think, they don't care how you vote. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.560 They've got their own ideology and they are going to 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.640 implement it. Anyway, and we've not only seen it with them. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.240 You don't hear those types of comments about legislation in 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.080 other areas of Australian politics. So why do you think 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.320 that indigenous policy draw that kind of reaction Because I. 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.520 Think that people conflate the referendum result with actual political 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.839 mileage and gain to be had at the expensive First 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.880 Nations people, it's only with black veils that were asked 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.159 to have referendums to put it to the vote. Well, 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.240 this thing has survived to state elections, which was a 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.359 key platform for the Andrews Labor government and did have 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.839 bipartisan support from the National and Liberal parties before they 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.880 chickened out of it and saw an opportunity after referendum 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:32.880 to try and gain some sort of political capital out 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.680 of it. But I think the last referendum we had 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.080 in Victoria was around daylight saving So that's the that's 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.159 the kind of referendums we have at the state level 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.520 here in Vitoria. What would we have a referendum on 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.279 this And anyone saying that the government is planning to 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.880 have a referendum to enshrine this in the constitution of 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:57.039 the state, it's just either mistaken or they are lying 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.640 for political gain or for clickbait. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.560 And during the voice debate, the Prime Minister he avoided 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.920 talking about a national treaty. He said, this is something 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.240 that's happening at the state and territory level. Victoria is 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.640 now the first, but what are we seeing in regards 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:14.159 to other states and territories. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.640 In terms of the treaty process, Victoria is years and 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.120 years ahead of what's happening in other states and territories. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.920 We've seen attacks on treaty processes and truth telling processes 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.200 across the country, probably most brutally in Queensland, on which 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.640 there was a truth telling process that was established but 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.640 was torn down I think on the second day of 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.159 the christ of Fudy government in Queensland being in power. 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.359 The Prime Minister was warned on multiple occasions in the 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.239 last six months that if he continued down this path, 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.279 this is what would occur, this is. 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:50.120 The kind of division that would occur. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.280 Well, I'm not going to make the same mistake as 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:54.080 the Prime minister. 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.920 The Albaniza government spanned a tremendous amount of political capital 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.480 in its first term. On the referendum, they haven't been 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.000 wanting to go near Aboriginal affairs in a truth telling 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.159 or treaty sense since then. But I do note that 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.560 the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Melandarry McCarthy has been in 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:17.520 Victoria this week and she is making more and more 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.960 solid sort of pronouncements around a national truth telling process, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.480 which is encouraging because there is a void at the 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.560 national level. It's a case of Victoria going out on 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.600 its own and trying to improve out comfort for people here. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.120 But what we've done by going through that process is 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.920 showing to the rest of the country that this can 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.200 be done, and it can be done in a way 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.600 that is inclusive and in a way that is looking 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.240 more to the future now than to the past. We 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.720 have through the truth telling process here reckoned with our past. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.120 We are now got our eyes firmly set on the future. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.960 And that is what treaty is about, and that is 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.680 something that can be replicated at the national level if 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:05.400 the government chooses to do. 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.520 So coming up. Could the years of work in getting 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:22.040 to this moment all be undone. You mentioned Queensland where 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.280 the treaty process was axed after there was a change 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.400 in government. So is there a risk that if in 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.160 Victoria if Labor loses office, that the treaty could be undone, 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.079 especially given that the Liberal Party in Victoria is against it. 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:40.320 Yeah, the difference here is that the Treaty Legislation Bill 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.400 has been introduced into the Parliament. It will be passed 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.880 with the Parliament. The Nationals and Liberals here make up 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.240 a very small minority in terms of oppositions when it 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.200 comes to the numbers within the Parliament here, so it 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.240 will pass with the support of Greens and other minority 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.400 groups and so then it will have over a year 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.600 to run before the next election, in which case it 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.199 has the opportunity to ensrine itself in some of the 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:12.120 systems here, to raise its own awareness through the community. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.240 But over the next twelve months and a bit, it's 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:18.400 going to be really hard to put the toothpaste back 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:23.200 into the tube once this is out there. From my understanding, 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.240 the opposition here says they still oppose the process, but 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.600 they haven't made a commitment or made any noises about 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.400 whether they would tear it down if they got into government. 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.800 Reading the situation here, it would be something that would 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:41.160 be seen as incredibly pointless and reckless to do, given 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.079 that there's been such a process in place for such 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.440 a long time, and it's not a platform that you 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.520 want to run on here in Victoria. If you want 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:49.280 to run on a platform orf we're going to tear 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.440 down Treaty, It's not going to get you too many votes. 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.760 We've got far bigger issues in terms of the political 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:01.760 landscape here around crime and costally and things like that, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.160 where there are far more votes to be mine as 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.400 an opposition than something like treaty. 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.959 And so once we see treaty in action, Daniel, how 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.520 do you think that the experience of First Nations people 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:15.679 in Victoria is going to change? 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.280 Probably the most meaningful change in terms of the broader 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:25.319 community will be through things like changes to the Victorian 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:29.800 school curriculum. We have a report now truths be told 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:31.800 through the Oral Justice Commission, which is now part of 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.360 the official public Record, which will be used as a 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.480 resource now to redevelop the curriculum to tell the true 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.600 history of this place. There's going to be an ongoing 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.760 truth telling process established, which means that we are able 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:51.400 to recognize patterns and speak truth to power on a 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.720 regular basis about what actually is happening here and how 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.520 the colonial project is still having detrimental impacts on First 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:05.559 Nations people. There will be the establishment of oversight institutions. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.040 The treaty allows First Nations people for the first time 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:14.160 as equals with the Crown to negotiate, have input and 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:20.320 talk to laws and policies that will impact First Nations people. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.400 So we're not retrofitting systems or policies or ideas. We 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.400 are there at the actual point that some of these 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.400 systems and policies are either reformed or created. There will 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.880 be renaming conventions across the state, and any sort of 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.480 public building or piece of land that is owned by 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.840 the state could be renamed after a process with First 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.120 Nations people to just get the flavor and language or 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.920 First Nations people back into this land after it's been 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.080 missing for so long, and there will be frameworks to 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.360 negotiate further treaties. I think the thing that people need 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.320 to realize is that the treaty itself is a leave, living, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.880 breathing document. It's not something that is etched in stone. 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.040 Is a process that will continue to evolve as a 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.000 society and community evolves. So there's a whole truckload of 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.600 things ruby that will be part of this process. Over 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.200 the future generations. That will not only enrich the lives 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.080 of First Nations people, it will rich the lives of 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.959 the broader community. I think an important thing to also 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.120 note about the treaty too, is that there's no commercial 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.920 in confidence here. What you see in the treaty is 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.200 laid out for everyone to see. It is something that 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.280 has been negotiated between the First People's Assembly and the 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.480 Victorian government, and the treaty now is the document where 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.440 everyone could see that there are no hidden clauses, no 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.080 hidden agendas. People aren't coming after people's homes or real 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.920 estate or businesses. It is all laid out in black 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.200 and white there, I say in the treaty document itself. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.160 And for people who have fought for decades to get 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.400 to this point, the weight of this moment must be heavy. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.040 Do you think that there is a sense of pressure 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:11.240 now that this needs to deliver real change. Yeah. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.440 If there's any concern about whether the First People, Suscemly 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.000 and Aboriginal people in Victoria will now rest on our 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.720 laurels that we now have this treaty process, I'm here 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:27.559 to ease your concerns around that. The weight of our 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.320 own history, the weight of the people who have fought 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.440 for things like this and that we've lost along the way. 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.319 The weight of their memory is something that will push 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:40.280 us forward far more than any sort of immediate political 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.679 dynamic in this state. I was actually surprised by how 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.520 much I was actually moved by this. It was something 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:51.280 that I intellectually was prepared for, something that I had 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.160 had a little bit of a role in bringing to 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.920 life in a very very very small way. But it 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.040 wasn't until a couple of hours after the whole thing 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.520 was introduced into the past that the gravity of what 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.440 has happened here kind of really hit me for the 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.559 first time. And what the treaty now does is recognize 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.000 that everyone that lives in this place that we call 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:15.960 Victoria now should have their own relationship with the land 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:22.760 and the customs here. Sure, our involvement Aboriginal people's relationship 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.120 with the land and its waterways and its skies is unique, 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.600 but there's now an opportunity now for every person that 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.520 is fortunate enough to live in this place to develop 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.880 their own relationship with the land and the waters at 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.800 the invitation of First Nations people. And if you want 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:41.600 to look at that in sort of practical ways. There 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.320 are whole communities in Victoria and particularly in Malbourne now 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.920 that from my point of view, I kind of see 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.280 that a court between between worlds that they don't belong 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.400 to one part of society. They are trying to find 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.000 their way towards acceptance and find a place of belonging 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.800 in this community. Well, without being too grandiose about it, 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.840 treaty is one pathway for people to find themselves in 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.160 this state and the place they live. That has been 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.360 looked after for when year by First Nations people, and 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.560 that can be done together with First Nations people. 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.480 Well, Daniel, thank you so much for your time. 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:21.480 Thanks Raby. 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:34.120 Also in the news today, Victoria Police has changed its 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.240 position on people who may be helping missing suspected killer 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.800 Desmond Freeman, now saying those who come forward and admit 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.680 they helped him may not be charged with criminal offenses. 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.280 The fifty six year old has been on the run 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.840 for two weeks after allegedly shooting dead two police officers 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:55.880 in Poor Punker in Victoria. And American right wing influencer 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.680 and political ally of Donald Trump, Charlie Kirk, has died 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.360 after being shot while speaking at a university campus in Utah. 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.480 Police say about three thousand people had gathered to hear 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.040 the thirty one year old speak, who was answering a 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.200 question about mass shootings at the time. 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:11.880 That he was shocked. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.760 Charlie Kirk was the founder of the influential conservative youth 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:21.120 organization Turning Point USA. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:26.440 Thanks for listening.