WEBVTT - Could Syria be headed for another civil war?

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to seven am

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<v Speaker 1>when an Israeli air strike hit the gate of Syria's

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<v Speaker 1>Defense Ministry in central Damascus. The blast echoed far beyond

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<v Speaker 1>the capital. It was a warning shot in a growing

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<v Speaker 1>fight over who controls Syria's fractured south, where sectary intensions

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<v Speaker 1>have reignited between minority populations and the Syrian government. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>Damascus based journalist Heidi pet on the latest in this

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<v Speaker 1>conflict and how it could redraw the map of Syria.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, July twenty fourth, So Heidi, thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>talking with me.

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<v Speaker 2>Last week.

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<v Speaker 1>You were in Damascus when Israel launched air strikes on

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<v Speaker 1>the city. Tell me where you were when that happened

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<v Speaker 1>and what you saw.

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<v Speaker 2>So, in the midst of this violence that we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>in the south of the country, Israel began a series

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<v Speaker 2>of what we'd call warning strikes on Damascus.

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<v Speaker 3>Months after liberation from decades of tyranny. Syrians now have

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<v Speaker 3>this to worry about. He's read, the air strikes in

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<v Speaker 3>the heart of their capital.

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<v Speaker 2>And so in the middle of the morning they hit

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<v Speaker 2>the gate of the Defense Ministry, which is in central Damascus.

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<v Speaker 2>You know It's in this place called Amayad Square where

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<v Speaker 2>Syrians gather, you know, for huge celebrations when the regime fell,

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<v Speaker 2>for protests. You get families going down there in the

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<v Speaker 2>evening to kind of picnic and hang out. And I'd

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<v Speaker 2>gone down there because I wanted to take some photographs

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<v Speaker 2>of the damage so far, and so I was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of getting out of my car and then I heard

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<v Speaker 2>this scream of jets overhead, and then a series of

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<v Speaker 2>three or four enormous air strikes.

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<v Speaker 3>Mid afternoon in Damascus. It's the most famous square violated

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<v Speaker 3>and bombarded by Israeli.

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<v Speaker 2>Air power, and you know, just the immense kind of

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<v Speaker 2>sound wave and dust and debris flying through the air

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<v Speaker 2>as about one hundred and fifty meters away from where

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<v Speaker 2>I was standing. And when that smoke cleared, what you

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<v Speaker 2>could see is that the Ministry of Defense building, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a four or five story building in downtown Damascus,

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<v Speaker 2>had just been cleaved into.

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<v Speaker 1>And so why did Israel launch this offensive in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of Damascus? What was that message?

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<v Speaker 2>So Syria is still not a unified country. In the northeast,

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<v Speaker 2>the Kurds still maintained a lot of territorial control and

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<v Speaker 2>in the south, there's an ethnic minority, religious minority called

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<v Speaker 2>the Drus. There's about seven hundred thousand of them. But

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<v Speaker 2>there's also Druze communities in Lebanon, and a significant Druze

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<v Speaker 2>community inside Israel, mostly though that's in the north of

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<v Speaker 2>the Gollen Heights, which is actually Syrian territory that's been

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<v Speaker 2>occupied by Israel since nineteen sixty seven. Many of the

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<v Speaker 2>Drews inside Syria, they're quite suspicious of Ahmad al Shara's government,

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<v Speaker 2>and they control a lot of the southern province of

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<v Speaker 2>Sweda and the city that takes the same name. And

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time there's been this simmering conflict between

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<v Speaker 2>the Drus and Bedouin tribes and communities, and then over

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<v Speaker 2>the weekend really exploded into quite serious violence.

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<v Speaker 3>Localized dispute between Bedouin tribes and some Druz fighters escalated

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<v Speaker 3>into a battle over whether the region should integrate into

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<v Speaker 3>the new Syria.

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<v Speaker 2>The Syrian government basically saw that as an opportunity, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they intervened, they say, to restore calm, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>also a pretext or a reason for them to go

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<v Speaker 2>in with quite a lot of force and take control

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<v Speaker 2>of a province that up until now had remained outside

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<v Speaker 2>of their authority.

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<v Speaker 4>The Arab fighters repeatedly insist to us they want a

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<v Speaker 4>unified Syria, but the Druze faction in Sweda, led by

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<v Speaker 4>cleric hekmat Alhadjari, does not. His group refuses to be

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<v Speaker 4>led by a government they accused of perpetrating killings against

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<v Speaker 4>Drus and.

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<v Speaker 2>He is the one who called for Israeli intervention, and

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<v Speaker 2>so Israel then obliged. They launched this, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>series of airstrikes on the Syrian government troops had had

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<v Speaker 2>gone into Sweda, killing hundreds of them apparently. So then

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<v Speaker 2>there was a sort of agreement for a ceasefire and

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<v Speaker 2>a withdrawal, and you know, various of these agreements inside

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<v Speaker 2>the city of Swedar.

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<v Speaker 4>This was meant to be a cease fi but the

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<v Speaker 4>warring factions clearly weren't part of it. There's no electricity

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<v Speaker 4>in the city, Internet is cut, food and water is scarce,

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<v Speaker 4>and there are thousands of families still bunkered down in

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<v Speaker 4>their homes. Amongst all of this, the.

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<v Speaker 2>Israelis that's when they decided to bomb central Damascus, sending

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<v Speaker 2>a very very strong message to the Syrian regime, which

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<v Speaker 2>is basically, don't even think about sending your military back

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<v Speaker 2>into Sweden.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me more about how the Syrian government has been reacting.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's interesting because up until now, the President Ahmedolshara

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<v Speaker 2>has been pretty conciliatory towards Israel, and as part of

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of agreement that has been made between ahmados

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<v Speaker 2>Shara and the US to get these crippling sanctions lifted

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<v Speaker 2>on Syria, it looks like there was a real path

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<v Speaker 2>towards normalizing relations with the Israel which would be historic.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he when he talks about Israel, he even

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<v Speaker 2>refers to it as the Israeli state, rather than using

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<v Speaker 2>the language of a lot of people and leaders here

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<v Speaker 2>in this region, which is they would never say the

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli state. They call it the Israeli entity because they

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<v Speaker 2>don't recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli State. Ahmedolshara, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he looks like he was on that path, but in

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<v Speaker 2>the last week, in the statements that he has made saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is a violation of our sovereignty. It's unacceptable,

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, you're seeking to undermine and sow division.

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<v Speaker 2>He has now begun referring to it again as the

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli entity, which I think gives you some indication of

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<v Speaker 2>the direction of travel there.

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<v Speaker 1>So in that case, why do you think Israel is

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<v Speaker 1>seeking to undermine someone who could be in la.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that is that is really a question for

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<v Speaker 2>Benjamin Nettan now, who who it seems has really gone

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<v Speaker 2>off the rails in the last week. You know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Americans are reportedly very very displeased.

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<v Speaker 6>Donald Trump is getting fed up. One White House of

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<v Speaker 6>visual described net Yahoo is quote a madman the Axis,

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<v Speaker 6>claiming he bombs everything all the time and that it

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<v Speaker 6>could undermine the Trump White House's efforts in the region.

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<v Speaker 2>But on a larger level, it sort of suits them

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<v Speaker 2>to have a weakened neighbor in Syria. You know, they're

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<v Speaker 2>not interested in having a strong military of any kind

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<v Speaker 2>on their borders. And to that end, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>December when the regimes fell, they spent a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time launching hundreds of air strikes and destroying Syrian military capabilities.

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<v Speaker 2>And what that's done is it's put the Syrian president

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<v Speaker 2>Offmanol Shara in a really really difficult position. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Israel just saying that the Syrian government isn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>have a presence in the south of its own country.

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<v Speaker 2>Is not tolerable for a lot of Syrians, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>also not really tolerable for a lot of the armed

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<v Speaker 2>groups and fighters that Shara relies upon to maintain security

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<v Speaker 2>and stability inside Syria. He already has quite a tenuous

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<v Speaker 2>hold on some parts of the country, and Israel risks

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<v Speaker 2>really inflaming these sectarian divisions. They're risk tipping Syria back

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<v Speaker 2>into serious violence or another civil war.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break Hardi takes us to the edge of

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<v Speaker 1>Sweda and the center of the violence. So, Haidi, you've

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<v Speaker 1>spent the last few days traveling throughout the south of Syria.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been trained to get into Sweden, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>place at the center of this violence. Tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>what life is like there and what's been happening since

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<v Speaker 1>Israel attacked Tumscus.

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<v Speaker 2>So Sweda has essentially been under siege since then. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we had these Bedouin armed groups and also

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<v Speaker 2>elements of the Syrian military kind of rampaging through the

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<v Speaker 2>city and engaging in this really you know, serious fighting

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<v Speaker 2>with Drew's militias, but also violence against civilians, and after

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<v Speaker 2>the Israeli strikes, the Syrian military, you know, they did

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<v Speaker 2>withdraw and various agreements have been made for these Bedouin

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<v Speaker 2>fighters to also leave the city.

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<v Speaker 5>To Syria now where residents in the southern city of

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<v Speaker 5>Sueda have told the BBC there is a tense calm

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<v Speaker 5>in the city following seven days of violent sectarian clashes,

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<v Speaker 5>but despite some reports of attacks, a ceasefire enforced by

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<v Speaker 5>the Syrian government largely appears to be holding.

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<v Speaker 2>But what has happened is it's meant there's this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of ring of Syrian government forces and Bedouin tribes around

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<v Speaker 2>the city of Sweda. People inside their running out of food,

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<v Speaker 2>they're running out of water, there's no electricity, the internet

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<v Speaker 2>keeps getting cut off. It's you know, it's essentially a

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<v Speaker 2>humanitarian disaster inside the city. And then in some of

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<v Speaker 2>these villages that ring the city, which were majority Bedouin.

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<v Speaker 2>What we've also seen is because of this fighting and

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<v Speaker 2>what has turned into this kind of sectarian revenge, some

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<v Speaker 2>of the Druze militias have been killing Bedouins civilians, They've

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<v Speaker 2>taken a large number of them hostage, and other ones

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<v Speaker 2>they've been displaced from their land and their villages. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, it's an incredibly difficult situation in that

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<v Speaker 2>province for civilians right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it sounds like a dire situation in Sweda and

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly difficult to actually get in and witness at firsthand.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about what that's been like trying to enter

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<v Speaker 1>and what you've seen on the outskirts of the city.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I've spent the last couple of days negotiating

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<v Speaker 2>with you know, armed men of various stripes trying to

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<v Speaker 2>get access to the city of Sweda. The Syrian government

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<v Speaker 2>has set up a checkpoint and they've told all of

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<v Speaker 2>these Bedouin fighters that they can go no further. And

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<v Speaker 2>so you've got hundreds of fighters who've come from all

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<v Speaker 2>over Syria massing at this point because they also don't

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<v Speaker 2>trust the Syrian government.

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<v Speaker 7>This here is the last government checkpoint before Sawada. But

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<v Speaker 7>all afternoon Bedwin government have been massive on this road.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 7>They say that they have stuck to the ceasfide ideal,

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<v Speaker 7>but they say they don't get their hostages out, get

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<v Speaker 7>the sick they injured out, then they're gonna go back in.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got men in cars that are covered in mud

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<v Speaker 2>in order to kind of disguise them from the air

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<v Speaker 2>from you know, from Israeli drone and air strikes. Masked

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<v Speaker 2>men on motorbikes. They're all incredibly heavily armed with Klashnikov's

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<v Speaker 2>heavy weaponry.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw one guy go past on the back of

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<v Speaker 2>a motorbike with a sort of portable anti aircraft weapons

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<v Speaker 2>strapped to his back. And when you talk to these guys,

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<v Speaker 2>you really get a sense that this is not a

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<v Speaker 2>group that the Syrian government has a great deal of

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<v Speaker 2>control over it all.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to one of the field leaders for one

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<v Speaker 2>of the tribes and he said, you know, we're Bedouins,

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<v Speaker 2>We're independent, We're not taking our orders from the government.

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<v Speaker 2>And if we don't see these Bedouin civilians in these

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<v Speaker 2>surrounding villages released, we're going to go back in and

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<v Speaker 2>nobody can stop us.

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<v Speaker 7>Jadha and this Bedwin leader told me it wasn't over

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<v Speaker 7>and Adola. If the Drews don't commit to the deal,

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<v Speaker 7>we will re enter Sawaiter again, he said.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's quite a tense scene there, and some of

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<v Speaker 2>these Druze villages on the outskirts you can see that

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<v Speaker 2>really really serious violence has happened. You know, every single

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<v Speaker 2>building had been burned. We also saw some of the looting,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, washing machines and household belongings sort of left

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<v Speaker 2>by the side of the road. And then I met

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<v Speaker 2>this woman. She was, you know, an elderly Drew's civilian

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<v Speaker 2>who'd been displaced from that neighborhood. She'd been hiding in

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<v Speaker 2>her house because she didn't want to leave actually, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, her house had been burned, her hands were

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<v Speaker 2>covered in soot. You know, they've got nothing to go

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<v Speaker 2>back to, and it's incredibly sad.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>There was one family that I spoke to and they

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<v Speaker 2>were saying, you know, we have no problem with the

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<v Speaker 2>Drew civilians. We only have a problem with the militia.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We had to leave my mother in law inside Sweden

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<v Speaker 2>because she's injured. She couldn't move, and she's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's in there. She's being taken care of by Drew's family.

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<v Speaker 2>And so even though they have these these sort of

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<v Speaker 2>personal connections that you know that many Syrians have with

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<v Speaker 2>their neighbors, you know, I asked him, you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>would it take for you to go back? And he said,

0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:30.840
<v Speaker 2>even if the government gave me all of Sweden, I

0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.160
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't go back. You know what I've seen in there.

0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've never seen anything like it in my

0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.560
<v Speaker 2>whole life. And as far as he's concerned, it's you know,

0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 2>his home's gone. He'll never go back.

0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.800
<v Speaker 1>And so this violence, the shooting, the burning, the looting,

0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.000
<v Speaker 1>people push to the point where they don't think they

0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.839
<v Speaker 1>can ever go back to their homes. What does all

0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.280
<v Speaker 1>of it say to you, Hardie about the challenge for

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the Syrian government right now?

0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it shows you how how easily fractured this

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.480
<v Speaker 2>society is after the you know, years and years of

0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.440
<v Speaker 2>dictatorship and then war. It shows you the challenges for

0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 2>the Syrian government, I think, in maintaining control over their

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.160
<v Speaker 2>own troops and over the various other armed groups which

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 2>are you know, nominally on their side, these sunny Vedouin tribes,

0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, they say that they're on the side of

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>or allied to the government, but it looks like when

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 2>push comes to shove, they don't necessarily respect their authority.

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.720
<v Speaker 2>But the bigger picture is that it shows other groups

0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.440
<v Speaker 2>across Syria, and most notably the Kurds who in the

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.120
<v Speaker 2>northeast still have about twenty percent of Syrian territory. That this,

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, this kind of experiment or this opportunity that

0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>the Syrian government sought to take to go in and

0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 2>establish control over a whole province, so they you know,

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.199
<v Speaker 2>that they didn't have any authority over it shows them

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.800
<v Speaker 2>that that failed, and so we've got this kind of

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:56.200
<v Speaker 2>looming deadline in these negotiations between the Kurds, who've traditionally

0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 2>been backed by the US and France and you know

0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of Western governments in their fight against not

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.280
<v Speaker 2>just the assid regime but also against Isis. You know,

0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of pressure being put on them to unify,

0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>to fold in, to come under the authority of the

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Syrian state. And I think the message that they've taken

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 2>from this is that actually, you know, they are in

0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.960
<v Speaker 2>quite a strong negotiating position because this attempt by the

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Syrian government, this show of force, it hasn't worked. I

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120
<v Speaker 2>think what it means is that there's a possibility for

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>continued violence on a larger scale and fracturing, you know,

0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and potentially the tipping into another civil war.

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Heidi, thank you so much for your time.

0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Labor has introduced legislation in

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 1>federal Parliament to cut existing student debt by twenty percent.

0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 1>The legislation, which is likely to pass with the support

0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.600
<v Speaker 1>of the Coalition and the Greens, will see three million

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Australians receive an automatic reduction to loans offered under the

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Higher Education Loan Program or Help. And legendary singer of

0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Black Sabbath Ozzy Osborne, has died aged seventy six. Diagnosed

0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.600
<v Speaker 1>with Parkinson's in twenty nineteen, Osborne was a pioneering figure

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 1>in heavy metal. In a statement, his family said he

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 1>was surrounded by loved ones in his final moments. I'm

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. Thanks for listening.