1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: That's the sound of a book being scanned to train AI. 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,460 Speaker 1: This one remains intact. Others face a more brutal fate. 3 00:00:13,870 --> 00:00:17,010 Speaker 2: Cut the spine off it, rip the pages out, scan them, 4 00:00:18,430 --> 00:00:18,869 Speaker 2: throw it away. 5 00:00:19,390 --> 00:00:21,910 Speaker 1: Nobody knows how many rare old books have now been 6 00:00:21,950 --> 00:00:25,230 Speaker 1: bought and destroyed to feed the AI beast. But second-hand 7 00:00:25,290 --> 00:00:28,890 Speaker 1: booksellers around the world have reported anonymous orders ranging from 8 00:00:28,950 --> 00:00:32,260 Speaker 1: a thousand to a million books at a time. And 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: internal documents from AI giant Anthropic have revealed plans to, quote, 10 00:00:36,860 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: destructively scan all the books in the world. I'm Ruby Jones, 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: and you're listening to 7am. Today, author Sarah Wilson on 12 00:00:49,460 --> 00:00:56,090 Speaker 1: the destruction of knowledge to make artificial intelligence. It's Monday, 13 00:00:56,410 --> 00:01:04,300 Speaker 1: September 28th. Sarah, I thought we could begin with this 14 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:09,209 Speaker 1: bookseller who became suspicious about who was actually putting in 15 00:01:09,510 --> 00:01:13,649 Speaker 1: orders for the rare books they owned and ultimately managed 16 00:01:13,690 --> 00:01:16,289 Speaker 1: to find out quite a lot about what was going on. 17 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:17,830 Speaker 3: Tell me about what happened. 18 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,330 Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's this kind of network of rare booksellers 19 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:25,380 Speaker 4: and they'd been getting these large orders for rare and 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 4: unusual books, but specifically ones that were older or were 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 4: published pre-2022. 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,100 Speaker 3: One particular bookseller. 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,580 Speaker 4: Teamed up with a media organisation, an independent media organisation 24 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 4: called 404 Media. I had set up the AirTag, so 25 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:44,820 Speaker 4: it was linked to my phone and I could see 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,950 Speaker 4: where it was going. And they put an AirTag in 27 00:01:49,130 --> 00:01:51,230 Speaker 4: one of the books and tracked this book all across 28 00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:52,170 Speaker 4: the US. 29 00:01:52,310 --> 00:01:57,870 Speaker 3: But it left California from an airport. Next up, it 30 00:01:58,130 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: appeared in an airport in Wisconsin. 31 00:02:02,510 --> 00:02:03,010 Speaker 4: It was in. 32 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:04,310 Speaker 3: A warehouse near the airport. 33 00:02:04,730 --> 00:02:09,130 Speaker 4: Until it finally arrived at an Amazon warehouse in Las 34 00:02:09,830 --> 00:02:14,110 Speaker 4: Vegas or the Nevada desert. And this particular warehouse has 35 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:17,829 Speaker 4: a logo. It's a picture of a Tyrannosaurus rex attacking 36 00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:20,890 Speaker 4: a book. And what they were able to find is 37 00:02:20,950 --> 00:02:24,190 Speaker 4: that Amazon workers had been sharing information about what was 38 00:02:24,250 --> 00:02:27,930 Speaker 4: going on in this particular warehouse. They'd been charged with 39 00:02:28,340 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 4: removing the spine of each one of these books... so 40 00:02:31,419 --> 00:02:35,090 Speaker 4: that the pages could be easily photocopied, scanned and then 41 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:39,870 Speaker 4: digitally uploaded. And the allegation is that these pages were 42 00:02:39,910 --> 00:02:44,030 Speaker 4: being used to feed the LLMs, the large language models 43 00:02:44,230 --> 00:02:44,830 Speaker 4: for Amazon. 44 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:53,690 Speaker 1: And we've since learned that this isn't isolated to one 45 00:02:53,730 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: bookseller or a few booksellers or even one tech company. 46 00:02:56,740 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: It turns out that Anthropic has had this secret plan 47 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: as well to buy and then destroy large amounts of books. 48 00:03:04,260 --> 00:03:07,340 Speaker 1: So tell me about that project that they were calling 49 00:03:07,540 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: Project Panama. 50 00:03:09,260 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, once again, it's secretive. It was only discovered through 51 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:17,150 Speaker 4: court filings for another court case, a related court case 52 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 4: that Anthropic was going through for piracy. And so there 53 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:23,510 Speaker 4: were a bunch of authors who did a class action 54 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:27,930 Speaker 4: seeking compensation for piracy. And in the process of that 55 00:03:28,030 --> 00:03:31,250 Speaker 4: court case, it was revealed that they were also engaged 56 00:03:31,389 --> 00:03:33,950 Speaker 4: in this, what's called destructive scanning. 57 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:38,290 Speaker 2: It's the largest copyright settlement in American history. The AI 58 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: company Anthropic forced to pay out a whopping $ 1. 5 billion 59 00:03:42,780 --> 00:03:45,860 Speaker 2: after a judge said it illegally pirated more than 7 60 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: million digitized books to train its AI model. 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,310 Speaker 4: And the court documents that were revealed actually found that 62 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:56,810 Speaker 4: the aim was to destructively scan all books in the 63 00:03:56,850 --> 00:03:59,930 Speaker 4: world for this particular project. But once again, Ruby, we 64 00:03:59,990 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 4: only found out about it by accident via another court 65 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,340 Speaker 4: case with a bunch of authors, which, by the way, 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,420 Speaker 4: I was implicated in. I am one of the authors 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,590 Speaker 4: in this class action against anthropics. So this now seems 68 00:04:13,610 --> 00:04:17,110 Speaker 4: to be a widespread way to be able to scan 69 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:21,590 Speaker 4: books without actually having to pay authors copyright. It's far 70 00:04:21,630 --> 00:04:23,550 Speaker 4: cheaper to buy a copy of a book, get it 71 00:04:23,690 --> 00:04:27,940 Speaker 4: shipped to some big warehouse somewhere and scan and destroy them. 72 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:30,660 Speaker 3: And so why destroy them though? 73 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: So the books are being used to train AI models, 74 00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: but why then go ahead and get rid of them afterwards? 75 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,849 Speaker 4: Well, it's simply easier for them. That's the real answer. 76 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:45,229 Speaker 4: So there is some speculation that in this court case 77 00:04:45,350 --> 00:04:48,409 Speaker 4: with Anthropic, that the fact that they destroyed them and 78 00:04:48,430 --> 00:04:51,430 Speaker 4: then replaced them with a digital copy, lended things to 79 00:04:51,450 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 4: a fair use defense. But I should just point out 80 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: that the court in the US did declare it fair 81 00:04:58,100 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 4: use to buy a book, scan it for training purposes, 82 00:05:02,779 --> 00:05:05,300 Speaker 4: and then to destroy it. The destruction is because they've 83 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: already destroyed it. They've taken the spines off. And what 84 00:05:07,460 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 4: can you do with a whole heap of leaves of 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 4: a book? 86 00:05:10,490 --> 00:05:12,470 Speaker 1: And you mentioned that all of these books that were 87 00:05:12,490 --> 00:05:16,529 Speaker 1: being bought and destroyed in this way, they were written 88 00:05:16,589 --> 00:05:18,430 Speaker 1: before 2022. 89 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:19,750 Speaker 3: So tell me about why that is. 90 00:05:20,350 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's significant because that was when books and materials 91 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:28,300 Speaker 4: started to have AI content in them. And so for 92 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:32,540 Speaker 4: AI to keep on learning, it needs to avoid recursive learning. 93 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,940 Speaker 4: This is the idea where it's actually sort of like 94 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,820 Speaker 4: the idea of a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, 95 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,539 Speaker 4: you know, 10 photocopies in. the picture is deranged and unusable. 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 4: That's what happens if AI feeds on its own content. 97 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,700 Speaker 4: So to guarantee that it's not getting its own recursive content, 98 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:53,410 Speaker 4: it has to get material from before AI was actually 99 00:05:53,450 --> 00:05:55,470 Speaker 4: introduced into the world, which is 2022. 100 00:05:55,470 --> 00:05:55,590 Speaker 2: Okay. 101 00:05:55,810 --> 00:06:00,030 Speaker 1: And so what happens then when these companies run out 102 00:06:00,070 --> 00:06:00,990 Speaker 1: of books. 103 00:06:00,790 --> 00:06:01,690 Speaker 3: To use in this way? 104 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:05,330 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, this is the interesting question, right? So They've 105 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:08,770 Speaker 4: essentially scraped the internet of most of the content that 106 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,140 Speaker 4: they're able to use. They're now working their way through books. 107 00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 4: They have actually committed at this stage, I should say, 108 00:06:15,020 --> 00:06:17,300 Speaker 4: to not using books more than a hundred years old. 109 00:06:17,620 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 4: They're actually not that much interested in it. They actually 110 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,150 Speaker 4: want modern books. And it's not even something to be 111 00:06:22,210 --> 00:06:24,529 Speaker 4: flattered about that my books were used because they're actually 112 00:06:25,089 --> 00:06:28,470 Speaker 4: really kind of trying to get hold of weird like pamphlets, 113 00:06:28,529 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 4: like the sewerage techniques of greater Chicago region in the 1980s. 114 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 4: Like They're wanting really obscure stuff because they're wanting to 115 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 4: extend the learning capacity of their technology. But when they 116 00:06:40,420 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 4: run out, that is a very good question. And it 117 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,550 Speaker 4: looks like they're going to run out in about 2028. 118 00:06:44,540 --> 00:06:47,500 Speaker 4: That's what the modelling is suggesting. After that, they can 119 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:51,460 Speaker 4: actually have to turn to real life authors and writers 120 00:06:51,660 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 4: to create more content, presumably. So it's a very real 121 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 4: risk because when they do run out, their AI actually 122 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: kind of starts to grind to a halt. And I 123 00:07:00,460 --> 00:07:03,870 Speaker 4: think it's quite ironic that they're going to need writers. Now, 124 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:07,370 Speaker 4: this has also happened with philosophers. Philosophers are now earning 125 00:07:07,390 --> 00:07:11,350 Speaker 4: sort of six-figure incomes working for these tech companies because 126 00:07:12,010 --> 00:07:16,780 Speaker 4: they're needed to navigate the moral maze that the technology 127 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,190 Speaker 4: has created for humankind. And it's quite interesting, isn't it, 128 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:26,900 Speaker 4: that it's actually these thinkers, writers, artists, creatives... The people 129 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,910 Speaker 4: are the very thing that AI can't create and is 130 00:07:29,950 --> 00:07:31,690 Speaker 4: going to have to rely on going forward. 131 00:07:36,110 --> 00:07:39,250 Speaker 1: Still to come, why Sarah accepted money from Microsoft to 132 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:40,770 Speaker 1: use her books for AI training. 133 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: So you mentioned... that you were part of this case, Sarah. 134 00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:54,900 Speaker 1: So before Anthropic was buying up these books, it was 135 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: using these pirated. 136 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: Online libraries to train its models. 137 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,270 Speaker 1: Your books were part of those libraries, and then you 138 00:08:01,290 --> 00:08:03,170 Speaker 1: were part of this group of authors who ended up 139 00:08:03,310 --> 00:08:07,130 Speaker 1: settling with Anthropic for, it was $ 1. 140 00:08:05,490 --> 00:08:07,350 Speaker 3: 5 billion. 141 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:10,070 Speaker 1: I mean, when you first found out that Anthropic was 142 00:08:10,150 --> 00:08:13,220 Speaker 1: using your books in that way, how was that realization 143 00:08:13,300 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: for you? 144 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: I wasn't shocked, to be honest, because I'd been witnessing 145 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,690 Speaker 4: this kind of thing happening over the years. My content 146 00:08:20,770 --> 00:08:24,450 Speaker 4: had been used illegally without my authorization for all kinds 147 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 4: of things. There's publishers in Iran, for instance, that take 148 00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:31,220 Speaker 4: my books, scan them, translate them and produce them as 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,180 Speaker 4: physical books and just put them out to market and 150 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,610 Speaker 4: make money from them. There's nothing I can do because 151 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:40,069 Speaker 4: they're not part of international copyright laws. I know that 152 00:08:40,170 --> 00:08:44,190 Speaker 4: my work has been all across various LLMs. for many 153 00:08:44,230 --> 00:08:47,210 Speaker 4: years because people can go in there and say, please 154 00:08:47,230 --> 00:08:49,250 Speaker 4: write this in the style of Sarah Wilson, and it 155 00:08:49,309 --> 00:08:52,150 Speaker 4: spits out literally the kind of phraseology that I've been 156 00:08:52,210 --> 00:08:52,980 Speaker 4: using for years. 157 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:54,460 Speaker 3: So it's in there. 158 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 4: Authors can also go into some of these pirate libraries 159 00:08:58,220 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 4: and do a search and can find their work in there. 160 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,140 Speaker 3: So it wasn't a surprise. 161 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,069 Speaker 4: There's also about 75 cases that are actually out there 162 00:09:06,110 --> 00:09:11,860 Speaker 4: at the moment, various authors suing other companies. So this 163 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 4: is just the first one to come through with a settlement. 164 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 4: And it's also the largest in history. Okay. 165 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:21,870 Speaker 1: And after that class action, you were invited to opt 166 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,750 Speaker 1: into a licensing deal with Microsoft, which would allow them 167 00:09:25,809 --> 00:09:27,050 Speaker 1: to use your books. 168 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:27,970 Speaker 3: To train AI. 169 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:31,809 Speaker 1: There were some authors who refused to do that on principle. 170 00:09:32,210 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: You decided to do it, to take the fee, though. 171 00:09:34,220 --> 00:09:35,380 Speaker 3: Tell me about that decision. 172 00:09:35,980 --> 00:09:38,179 Speaker 4: Yeah, I did think about it for quite some time 173 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: and the bulk of authors did take the fee. And 174 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:45,150 Speaker 4: I share their thoughts, but this issue is massive. There 175 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:49,589 Speaker 4: are multiple LLMs out there who are taking our content anyway. 176 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:53,370 Speaker 4: So we should take whatever money is being put forward. 177 00:09:53,830 --> 00:09:56,610 Speaker 4: People should be paid. We get paid licensing fees if 178 00:09:56,650 --> 00:10:00,940 Speaker 4: somebody wants to use our work for a PowerPoint presentation 179 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,860 Speaker 4: or in schools for lectures and this kind of thing. Now, 180 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 4: of course, the devastating issue is that the books aren't 181 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:10,980 Speaker 4: just being used by university students in a lecture. They're 182 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:17,830 Speaker 4: being used to train students a system that could replace writers, artists, creators. 183 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:20,830 Speaker 4: That is the bigger issue here. Now, is it going 184 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:23,870 Speaker 4: to be fixed by authors refusing to take the money 185 00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:27,470 Speaker 4: that they can? You know, there are principled decisions that 186 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:28,189 Speaker 4: could be made here. 187 00:10:28,309 --> 00:10:29,730 Speaker 3: Ultimately, I decided to. 188 00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 4: Take the money because I sort of saw it and went, okay, 189 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:35,380 Speaker 4: I'm taking money while I can, and I'm going to 190 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,579 Speaker 4: put it into funding my ability to go and fight 191 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:38,100 Speaker 4: the bastards. 192 00:10:38,690 --> 00:10:40,770 Speaker 3: And so how do you do that then? Once AI 193 00:10:40,850 --> 00:10:41,530 Speaker 3: has gone. 194 00:10:41,390 --> 00:10:44,850 Speaker 1: Through all of these books, used all this knowledge, its 195 00:10:44,890 --> 00:10:48,110 Speaker 1: language skills have improved as a result, how do you 196 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:52,430 Speaker 1: fight back to make sure that writers aren't made obsolete 197 00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:53,189 Speaker 1: by AI? 198 00:10:53,490 --> 00:10:55,850 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a couple of things. I mean, I'm talking 199 00:10:55,870 --> 00:10:58,189 Speaker 4: to you right now and exposing this. We're having a 200 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 4: conversation about it so more and more people know about it. Remember, 201 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,260 Speaker 4: we became aware of this because some rare booksellers started 202 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:07,790 Speaker 4: talking to each other and decided to expose it, right? 203 00:11:08,370 --> 00:11:10,850 Speaker 4: This topic is now being talked about around the world. 204 00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: the European Commission has had discussions about copyright laws. Here 205 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,579 Speaker 4: in Australia, the Australian Society of Authors have also got 206 00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:22,420 Speaker 4: together and are lobbying the government and have done so successfully. 207 00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:26,550 Speaker 4: They've managed to ensure that there are copyright protections in place, 208 00:11:26,590 --> 00:11:29,150 Speaker 4: that they're not destroyed. And they're also pushing for ways 209 00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:31,770 Speaker 4: to get compensation for authors going forward, but also for 210 00:11:31,850 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 4: past compensation. So I think that is part of what 211 00:11:36,010 --> 00:11:38,500 Speaker 4: needs to be done right now. We should keep in 212 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: mind that, you know, These tech leaders love to talk 213 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,300 Speaker 4: in very, very dramatic language. We've seen a lot of 214 00:11:45,340 --> 00:11:47,540 Speaker 4: that happen in the last week or so with the 215 00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 4: whistleblowers coming out. You know, so when they say that 216 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 4: they're destructively scanning all books in the world, they're in 217 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,950 Speaker 4: fact destructively scanning one copy of each book. It's not 218 00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:00,450 Speaker 4: like they're taking all copies of my books and putting 219 00:12:00,470 --> 00:12:04,090 Speaker 4: through an incinerator, but they are actually taking the content, 220 00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 4: the creative content. The other thing I would say is 221 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 4: this is actually a sector of the broader debate that 222 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,980 Speaker 4: can be legislated. 223 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,570 Speaker 2: We can actually control this. 224 00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:18,069 Speaker 4: We've seen it with the music industry, the Napster case 225 00:12:18,170 --> 00:12:21,949 Speaker 4: over 20 years ago. That actually revolutionised the music industry 226 00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:26,370 Speaker 4: and provided copyright provisions for artists. We can do the 227 00:12:26,429 --> 00:12:30,010 Speaker 4: same with books. It's not difficult to do. It can 228 00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 4: be legislated against. So the more that people know about this, 229 00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 4: the more pressure is put onto governments around the world 230 00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 4: I do believe something will come out of this exposure. 231 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: And as you've noted, AI companies are now hiring philosophers 232 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: to help them navigate this problem that they've created. 233 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:49,939 Speaker 3: You've raised the prospect. 234 00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:52,490 Speaker 1: Of writers being hired when all of the books run out. 235 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:55,030 Speaker 1: It seems back to front though, doesn't it? To create 236 00:12:55,050 --> 00:12:57,910 Speaker 1: the problem by pursuing AI and then try and get 237 00:12:57,970 --> 00:13:01,229 Speaker 1: human thinkers back in to solve it. What kind of 238 00:13:01,270 --> 00:13:03,470 Speaker 1: future do you think we are hurtling towards here? 239 00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 4: We are hurtling to a very uncertain future. And I 240 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:10,700 Speaker 4: think what's been exposed in the last couple of weeks, 241 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,540 Speaker 4: what a lot of people are becoming aware of is 242 00:13:12,700 --> 00:13:17,030 Speaker 4: how little the tech bros themselves know about what that 243 00:13:17,050 --> 00:13:19,770 Speaker 4: future looks like. You know, they're very much stabbing in 244 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:23,189 Speaker 4: the dark. They're asking to be regulated for pauses to 245 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:25,969 Speaker 4: be put on the development of their technology. And the 246 00:13:26,010 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 4: best thing that we can all do is be very, 247 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:30,689 Speaker 4: very aware of what's happening and And to use whatever 248 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:36,050 Speaker 4: democratic processes still remain in place to fight for, I guess, 249 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:40,550 Speaker 4: retaining things that are so, so, so important to sort 250 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 4: of human life. And I guess the worst outcome for 251 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:50,530 Speaker 4: us going forward is something that's totally Orwellian. George Orwell's 1984, 252 00:13:50,530 --> 00:13:54,900 Speaker 4: The Mystery of Truth, wound up controlling the one document 253 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,900 Speaker 4: of recorded history and was able to change it at 254 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,660 Speaker 4: will to suit its party lines. Now, I don't think 255 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,260 Speaker 4: we're close to that yet. There's a lot of books 256 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,590 Speaker 4: out there in the world. And so far, as I say, 257 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,990 Speaker 4: the tech companies are actually committing not to buying up 258 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:11,550 Speaker 4: books that are over 100 years old. We've got to 259 00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:15,590 Speaker 4: ensure that stays in place. So yes, there's a dystopian 260 00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:18,130 Speaker 4: future ahead of us if we don't act now I 261 00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:19,790 Speaker 4: mean how many times have we heard that but I 262 00:14:19,830 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: think actually this is actually viscerally disturbing anybody who's seen 263 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:28,260 Speaker 4: the imagery of these books with their spines being cut 264 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:32,090 Speaker 4: off it's actually really upsetting because books are so precious 265 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:36,510 Speaker 4: to us people preserve books we create massive monuments to 266 00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:42,430 Speaker 4: books for preserving our history, 5,000 years of mindful recording 267 00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:45,890 Speaker 4: of the human moral endeavour. And so I do think 268 00:14:45,950 --> 00:14:50,750 Speaker 4: that this particular corner of the AI travesty, we probably 269 00:14:50,850 --> 00:14:53,010 Speaker 4: will be able to ensure that it doesn't go too far. 270 00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:56,070 Speaker 1: Yeah, books are text, but they're also symbols in a 271 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:56,890 Speaker 1: lot of different ways. 272 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,300 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Sarah, thank you so much for speaking with me. 273 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 3: My pleasure, Ruby. 274 00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:22,140 Speaker 1: Thank you. Also in the news, the federal government says 275 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,210 Speaker 1: it's working closely with OpenAI after one of its AI 276 00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:30,530 Speaker 1: agents gained unauthorised access to Australian government websites. OpenAI boss 277 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:34,510 Speaker 1: Sam Altman and Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei have now been 278 00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:38,010 Speaker 1: called to appear before a Senate inquiry following similar incidents 279 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:41,850 Speaker 1: involving government sites in Australia and the United States. Prime 280 00:15:41,890 --> 00:15:46,270 Speaker 1: Minister Anthony Albanese says OpenAI has questions to answer after 281 00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:49,090 Speaker 1: it took almost three months to notify the government about 282 00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: the Medicare breach. And Iran says diplomacy is the only 283 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,900 Speaker 1: way forward with the United States after President Donald Trump 284 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,370 Speaker 1: rejected its latest proposal to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. 285 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:03,690 Speaker 1: Tehran had offered to reopen the shipping route within seven 286 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:06,910 Speaker 1: days if the US eased military pressure and lifted its 287 00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:10,330 Speaker 1: blockade on Iranian ports. Iran says it's still waiting for 288 00:16:10,350 --> 00:16:13,670 Speaker 1: a formal response through mediators, while Trump has called for 289 00:16:13,750 --> 00:16:15,859 Speaker 1: Iran's continued economic isolation. 290 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: I'm Ruby Jones. This is 7am. Thanks for listening.