WEBVTT - The NACC has a trust problem

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to seven AM. The

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<v Speaker 1>National Anti Corruption Commission has over two hundred employees, an

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<v Speaker 1>annual budget of sixty million dollars, and has received more

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<v Speaker 1>than five thousand referrals. It also hasn't made a single

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<v Speaker 1>major finding in the two years it's been operating, and

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<v Speaker 1>adding to questions around performance and credibility. It was recently

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<v Speaker 1>revealed that the NAC's chief Commissioner, Paul Brereton, has been

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<v Speaker 1>consulting for the Defense Force while leading the Federal Watchdog,

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<v Speaker 1>which has oversight of the df. Today journalist Nick Fake

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<v Speaker 1>on the missteps and mismanagement of the NAC and whether

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<v Speaker 1>it has any hope of regaining public trust. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>October twenty seven, So Nick, let's begin by going back

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<v Speaker 1>to when the NAC was first established. Was of course

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<v Speaker 1>one of the Albanese government's first acts when they took power,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was promised because of this widespread distrust at

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<v Speaker 1>the time in political processes and in politicians themselves. So

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<v Speaker 1>take me back to that moment and to why the

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<v Speaker 1>KNACK was needed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Ruby, voters anticipated the KNACK would bring much needed

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<v Speaker 2>integrity and oversight to public affairs in Australia. They expected

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<v Speaker 2>that would bring scrutiny to allegations around you know, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>the sports lots affair, and there were a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of discretionary grants schemes under the Coalition government. There was

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<v Speaker 2>the Eastern Australia Agriculture eighty million dollar water sales to

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<v Speaker 2>the Commonwealth that was the subject of controversy.

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<v Speaker 3>Barnaby Joyce is embroiled in a controversial eighty million dollar

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<v Speaker 3>water buyback that he oversaw in twenty seventeen from a

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<v Speaker 3>Cayman Islands based company co founded by the now Energy Minister.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a web of unusual financially interactions around Liberal

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<v Speaker 2>Minister Stuart Robert and Synergy three sixty.

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<v Speaker 4>A former employee of the Synergy three to sixty lobbying

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<v Speaker 4>firm has made explosive written allegations to a Parliamentary inquiry

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<v Speaker 4>about dealings involving Stuart Robert and the company. An arrangement

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<v Speaker 4>was designed to facilitate the flow of funds through United

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<v Speaker 4>Marketing and Onwood to Stuart Robert.

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<v Speaker 2>There were a whole bunch of allegations around home affairs,

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<v Speaker 2>huge offshore detention contracts and corruption allegations around those.

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<v Speaker 5>Opposition later Pizza Dutton was Home Affairs Minister at the

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<v Speaker 5>time some of these contracts being awarded, but Home Affairs

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<v Speaker 5>Department Secretary Michael Pizzullo told Senate Estimates in twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 5>one that these contracts had nothing to do with the minister.

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<v Speaker 2>There was the government's thirty million dollar acquisition of land

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<v Speaker 2>near Western Sydney Airport that was valued at three million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars a year earlier, and then there was a raft

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<v Speaker 2>of scandals related to defense contracts. But theseus I think

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<v Speaker 2>probably the tip of the iceberg. The KNACK hasn't made

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<v Speaker 2>a dent in any of them.

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<v Speaker 1>When the KNACK was set up, there was all of

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<v Speaker 1>these questions and serious concern around the decision that was

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<v Speaker 1>made at the time to not have public hearings embedded

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<v Speaker 1>into the way the NAC functions unless it was decided

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<v Speaker 1>that there was quote exceptional circumstances. So, now that we

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<v Speaker 1>are more than two years into the NAC's operation, tell

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<v Speaker 1>me how that has played out.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's been no hearings so far, no public hearings

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<v Speaker 2>at all, and I think the ongoing lack of transparency

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<v Speaker 2>which was built into the design of the Knack by

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<v Speaker 2>the Albanese government, it's become a running sore. So Jason

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<v Speaker 2>Katsukis was a reporter who wrote in the Saturvey paper

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<v Speaker 2>recently that Albanesi had personally overruled a push by the

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<v Speaker 2>then Attorney General Mark Dreyfus to give the Knack wider

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<v Speaker 2>discretion to hold public hearings, but Albanesi reportedly insisted that

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<v Speaker 2>hearings be held in private unless exceptional circumstances existed. But

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<v Speaker 2>so far apparently there are no exceptional circumstances that there

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<v Speaker 2>haven't been any public hearings, and I think it's been

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<v Speaker 2>to the detriment of the organization's reputation.

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<v Speaker 1>And what do we know about what it's actually investigated.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, very little.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, they've got five thousand referrals, They've done a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of investigations. They say that they've got thirty eight corruption

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<v Speaker 2>investigations underway, including twelve joint investigations. They've finalized ten investigations.

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<v Speaker 2>It become clear in nine of them that corrupt conduct

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be found. So essentially we have an organization that

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<v Speaker 2>has over two hundred employees and an annual budget of

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<v Speaker 2>over sixty million dollars, but it's yet to initiate and

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<v Speaker 2>land a single major corruption finding.

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<v Speaker 6>So far, it's landed.

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<v Speaker 2>On one low level bribe case involving a Western Sydney

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<v Speaker 2>Airport procurement manager. So I don't think anyone could say

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<v Speaker 2>it's been a strong start the integrity watchdog.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the strongest criticisms of the KNACK was

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<v Speaker 1>around its decision to not take on the Robodet scandal

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<v Speaker 1>when it was referred to it the commissioner, Paul Bereton.

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<v Speaker 1>He was found to have engaged in officer misconduct in

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<v Speaker 1>relation to this perceived conflict of interest around that decision,

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<v Speaker 1>and as it stands now, the NAC is looking into robodebt.

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<v Speaker 1>Another person has been brought on to investigate whether anyone

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<v Speaker 1>acted coruptly or not. So if you look at that episode,

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<v Speaker 1>which happened very early on in the history of the NAC,

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<v Speaker 1>how damaging do you think it's been for the reputation.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd say that the Robodet investigation has been both the

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<v Speaker 2>highest profile of the next cases and the highest profile failure.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been thoroughly mismanaged. I think it continues to cost

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<v Speaker 2>them dearly, Like both financially and in terms of its reputation.

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<v Speaker 2>So there were revelations of previous Defense Force links between

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<v Speaker 2>Commissioner Brereton and the former DHS Secretary Katherine Campbell, and

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<v Speaker 2>that this had undermined the nax's initial decision not to

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<v Speaker 2>take on the ROBODAD investigation. But apparently even the damage

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<v Speaker 2>caused by that perceived conflict had failed to convince Breton

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<v Speaker 2>to sort out his Defense relationship. And so we've learned

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<v Speaker 2>recently that Brereton hadn't even informed the nac CEO that

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing ongoing consulting work. Breton stayed on as

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<v Speaker 2>a ranking officer with the ADF in order to keep

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<v Speaker 2>consulting with the ADF, and it appears he hasn't been

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<v Speaker 2>keeping the nac CEO informed of his own consulting with

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<v Speaker 2>the ADF. This puts him in a completely conflicted situation.

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<v Speaker 1>Proceedings and resume with the National Anti Corruption Commission. I

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<v Speaker 1>believe we have an opening statement.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was the Senate Estimates hearing recently where the

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<v Speaker 2>nac CEO, Philip Reed, attempted to exonerate Breton by explaining

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<v Speaker 2>that it was unpaid consulting work.

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<v Speaker 7>Will provide the advice on a needs basis.

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<v Speaker 6>That's a role.

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<v Speaker 8>That's work. Providing advice is work, mister.

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<v Speaker 7>Reed, Well, you know each of us will have different

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<v Speaker 7>words to describe this work.

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<v Speaker 6>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>The Green Senator David Shubridge raised the obvious criticisms, How

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<v Speaker 2>could Breton be both a senior officer of the ADF

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<v Speaker 2>and the head of the organization task with investigating it?

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<v Speaker 8>Being part of providing high level support to ministers defense

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<v Speaker 8>and external government agencies is a significant thing, isn't it. Well,

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<v Speaker 8>he's providing high level support to Minister's Defense and External

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<v Speaker 8>Goverment Agency.

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<v Speaker 7>Senator, he's providing advice to the igad D.

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<v Speaker 8>Which they are in turn, that's providing to Minister Defense

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<v Speaker 8>and external government agencies. That is a significant body of work.

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<v Speaker 6>Mister Reid.

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<v Speaker 2>Shuebridge pointed to the fact that there'd been one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty active referrals to the NAC on defense related matters.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, defense procurement are the largest, some of the

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<v Speaker 2>largest contracts that governments ever get into, and we have

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<v Speaker 2>a Chief Commissioner who should be recusing himself from all

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<v Speaker 2>of them.

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<v Speaker 1>What have the KNACS said about how they handle this?

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<v Speaker 2>The NAC CEO. He told Estimates that Breton will recuse himself.

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<v Speaker 7>That he will then refuse himself from if those matters

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<v Speaker 7>come forward, if matters come forward from those areas, those units.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that Brereton recused himself from at least six

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<v Speaker 2>of these, but you know what about the other one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and fourteen And who's choosing which ones he recused from?

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<v Speaker 2>Is that him choosing? So you know, just a reminder

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<v Speaker 2>to listeners. As an example, there's a forty six billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollar naval frigate deal. It's been referred to the KNACK

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<v Speaker 2>for investigation. Is Breton overseeing this or not? We literally

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, Huebridge said to the nac CEO at Senate Estimates.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, you took it on notice and you didn't

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<v Speaker 2>advise of his work with the ADF And because of

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<v Speaker 2>him failing to tell you that, you've misled the committee

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<v Speaker 2>and you've misled Parliament. So I suddenly you have a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where the nac CEO is misleading Parliament because he's

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<v Speaker 2>been misinformed by the Chief Commissioner of the.

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<v Speaker 7>NAK when the question was asked and when the response

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<v Speaker 7>was provided, I was unaware.

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<v Speaker 8>Yes, because the commissioner puts you in that situation by

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<v Speaker 8>not telling you. And again, I don't put the fault

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<v Speaker 8>at your feet, mister Reid. I put the fault at

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<v Speaker 8>the feet of the commissioner of the National Anti Corruption

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<v Speaker 8>Commission who wasn't being transparent with you.

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<v Speaker 2>Senator David Pocock he joined in. He had similar criticisms.

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<v Speaker 9>Like, why not to we allow a commissioner who's on

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<v Speaker 9>eight hundred thousand dollars a year to aging things which

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<v Speaker 9>potentially mean that we're going to have to get up

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<v Speaker 9>someone else to do the job that he's been paid

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<v Speaker 9>so much. It's just you've got to understand mystery, this

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<v Speaker 9>this is this is bonkers. If you're out there in

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<v Speaker 9>the public and I'm it's it's it's hugely frustrating.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to have to get someone else to look

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<v Speaker 2>at what the what the Commission is supposed to be doing.

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<v Speaker 6>It's crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up why some whistle blowers are regretting even contacting

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<v Speaker 1>the KNACK. You've been speaking to whistle blowers, to people

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<v Speaker 1>who have taken concerns that they might have around potential

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<v Speaker 1>corruption to the Knacks. So can you tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>bit about their experiences and what they're telling you about

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<v Speaker 1>how seriously their complaints are being taken, and their impressions

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<v Speaker 1>of how well the KNACK is functioning at the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I've spoken to several whistle blower in recent months

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<v Speaker 2>who remain in the dark about information they provided to

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<v Speaker 2>the KNACK. So they contacted the KNACK wanting to spill

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<v Speaker 2>the beans on allegations of wrongdoing. They don't know where

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<v Speaker 2>their allegations are, whether they're being investigated, whether they're even

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<v Speaker 2>being taken seriously. So many still they feel unsafe having

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<v Speaker 2>put this information to this commission and not knowing what's

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<v Speaker 2>happened with it. And they're not the only ones, transparency experts.

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<v Speaker 2>A growing number of politicians, including those who initially supported

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<v Speaker 2>the formation of the KNACK, have become quite outspoken in

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<v Speaker 2>recent months in their dismay about what's not happening.

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<v Speaker 1>And can we just come back to robodat because that is, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the most important and highest profile case that

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<v Speaker 1>the KNACK has been involved in. Where is that investigation

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<v Speaker 1>up to now? And do we know do we have

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<v Speaker 1>any sense of how that might play out?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, SOAK rebooted its investigation after the inspector the NAC

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<v Speaker 2>inspector Gail Ferness said, look, it's been mismanaged.

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<v Speaker 6>We want you to relook at it.

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<v Speaker 2>The KNACK brought on Jeffrey Nettle to relook at it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they rebooted the investigation and they said, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we will.

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<v Speaker 6>Look into it. And it's been running.

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<v Speaker 2>This new investigation has been running since at least July,

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<v Speaker 2>but we're none the wiser. So other than that it's

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<v Speaker 2>cost over a million dollars and that it'll run into

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<v Speaker 2>next year at least, we really don't know where it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is a problem for the NAC generally. There's

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<v Speaker 2>such a lack of transparency around what they're doing on

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<v Speaker 2>all fronts.

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<v Speaker 1>And Nick, I mean, there is really only the political

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<v Speaker 1>will to set something like this up a corruption watchdog

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<v Speaker 1>very rarely. I mean it took multiple scandals, pressure from

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<v Speaker 1>Independence trying to enter the political system. It was a

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<v Speaker 1>real moment in time that I think meant that we

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<v Speaker 1>got a federal Anti Corruption Commission in the first place. So,

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<v Speaker 1>given what you're saying about the ways in which it's

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<v Speaker 1>failing at the very kind of first hurdle of transparency,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think this means for public trust?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think a lot of people agree that the

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<v Speaker 2>nacts yet to prove itself in any way, and it

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<v Speaker 2>appears hamstrung by its own processes, by its own missteps,

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<v Speaker 2>its own commitment to secrecy, and you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's incumbent on both the alb and Easy government and

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<v Speaker 2>Brariton to restore its reputation in whatever way they can.

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<v Speaker 1>What would it take at this point in time to

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<v Speaker 1>restore any public faith.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, personally, I think it just needs to show that

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<v Speaker 2>it can take on high profile cases and that it

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<v Speaker 2>can deliver results. It needs to show that it's above politics,

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<v Speaker 2>that it can make uncomfortable findings. I don't think people

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<v Speaker 2>are interested in low level misdemeanors or slap on the risk,

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.040
<v Speaker 2>and I think so far all the public scene are

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.720
<v Speaker 2>these endless discussions about how the commissioners a conflicted or

0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.079
<v Speaker 2>unwilling to speak about their investigations. I mean, how's that

0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.120
<v Speaker 2>supposed to assure the public. The whole point of an

0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.280
<v Speaker 2>anti corruption commission is to bring transparency, and on that

0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.800
<v Speaker 2>front it's completely failed. I'm not sure the NAK can

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:27.040
<v Speaker 2>regain trust unless it produces results like really soon, and personally,

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:28.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that will.

0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.280
<v Speaker 6>Happen under the leadership of Paul Burton.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the public will need to see results

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:35.880
<v Speaker 2>or resignations.

0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, Nick, thank you so much for your time.

0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 6>Thanks Ruby.

0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.200
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Prime Minister Anthony Alberanezi is

0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 1>in Malaysia for the Asian Meeting of World Leaders before

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.800
<v Speaker 1>he heads to South Korea for the Pacific Economic Forum.

0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Ahead of the meetings, which focus on regional security and trade,

0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the Prime Minister alluded to an ongoing campaign to have

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<v Speaker 1>the United States remove tariffs on Australian goods. Prime Minister

0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Abenezi failed to secure an exemption on US import taxes

0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>of ten percent on most of its goods and fifty

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.960
<v Speaker 1>percent for aluminium and steel, but he says he will

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.880
<v Speaker 1>engage the US President at the meetings, whose attendance is

0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.240
<v Speaker 1>an unusual move that signals the United States rising interest

0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>in the region. And National Senator Mat Canavan will present

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 1>details of his report into net zero to the party today,

0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 1>but will not include economic modeling of the cost of

0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.400
<v Speaker 1>dumping the target. National's Deputy leader and outspoken NET zero opponent,

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Mat Canavan led the review with his Senate colleague Ross Cadell,

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.560
<v Speaker 1>but has flagged the Discussions over the party's position were

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 1>likely to be ongoing, and it could take time for the.

0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:52.240
<v Speaker 6>Matter to be settled.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 6>Thanks for listening

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<v Speaker 2>And