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Speaker 1: I get a team. It's the You Project. It's doctor Bill,

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Speaker 1: our favorite geek, our favorite researcher, our favorite nerd. I

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Speaker 1: hope I didn't offend you with any of that, mate,

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Speaker 1: but you are loved here at the U Project. How

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Speaker 1: are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm gret on my favorite podcast.

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Speaker 1: Ah, good, dude, it's really nice to have you back.

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Speaker 1: You and I just had a deep and meaningful I

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Speaker 1: reckon eight or nine minute connection before we went live.

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Speaker 1: You're always busy. I'm always busy, but it was nice

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Speaker 1: to just chat with you, and you know, I look

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Speaker 1: forward to these talks and I look forward to spending

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Speaker 1: a bit of time from you and learning from you.

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Speaker 1: So just before we get going, everybody. Bill's website is

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Speaker 1: author Bill Sullivan, One word dot com author Bill Sullivan,

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Speaker 1: And if you go into the articles bit or the

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Speaker 1: no you just go straight in there. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of articles, which we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: couple today. I didn't realize how prolific you are. You

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Speaker 1: you crank out a fair bit, like with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who have an article section on there. It's

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Speaker 1: like seven articles written over the last decade, and I'm

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Speaker 1: like the most recent one is twenty nine seen or something.

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Speaker 1: But you've written a lot this year, and you are

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Speaker 1: quite prolific in your writing for various publications.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something I just enjoy doing. I read a

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Speaker 2: lot of science. It's part of my job. And when

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Speaker 2: I come across studies that I just find plain interesting

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Speaker 2: or they relate to my book, please to meet me,

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Speaker 2: you know, the like logical extension or new data related

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Speaker 2: to that topic. I can't help myself but to write

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Speaker 2: about it and put it out there on the various

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Speaker 2: venues that are kind enough to accept my work. And

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Speaker 2: I do a quarterly newsletter too that's associated with the book,

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Speaker 2: so people can go to the website and sign up

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Speaker 2: for that. I don't slam your inbox often, but four

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Speaker 2: times a year you'll get some links and other bits

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Speaker 2: of writing from me, most of which are related to

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Speaker 2: the book. Because, as you know more than most people,

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Speaker 2: the biology of the self and the biology behind human

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Speaker 2: behaviors constantly changing. We're getting new data all the time,

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Speaker 2: so it's something that you perpetually have to update in

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Speaker 2: order to stay accurate.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how at different times through history, I

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Speaker 1: mean always you know, in the evolutionary and the scientific

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Speaker 1: and the research timeline, Like we're doing stuff now in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and thinking stuff and believing stuff that

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Speaker 1: in one hundred years I'll look back and go, what

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Speaker 1: was wrong with them in twenty twenty What would they even?

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Speaker 1: How did they for a moment think that that was real?

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Speaker 1: Or you know, it's like we you know.

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Speaker 2: If you think about it just just one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're going back to like nineteen twenty four,

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Speaker 2: there's no such thing as penicillin antibiotics. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: just like these precious medicines that we now just take

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Speaker 2: for granted. It's totally revolutionized things. Back in nineteen twenty four,

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Speaker 2: we had no idea that DNA was the molecule responsible

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Speaker 2: for heredity. Okay, that was still a mystery, much less

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Speaker 2: knowing what it looks like and how it functions. To

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Speaker 2: think that all of that was sorted out in just

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Speaker 2: one hundred years, it really does boggle the mind where

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Speaker 2: we might be in another one hundred years from now,

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Speaker 2: and how remitive we're really going to look one.

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Speaker 1: Hundred percent now, just quickly before we dive in everyone.

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Speaker 1: Bill's book is called Please to Meet me epigenetics, DNA, microbes,

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Speaker 1: and the hidden forces shaping who we are, Jen's germs

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Speaker 1: and the curious forces that make us who we are.

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Speaker 1: So I downloaded your book, and I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: bullshit and say I've listened to it. I've got nine

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Speaker 1: books on my list. It's the next one. So I'm

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Speaker 1: listening to a book at the moment, which is called Unfollow.

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Speaker 1: So I've got one hour from the end and then

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Speaker 1: it's sixty minutes to go, and then I'm up to

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Speaker 1: your book, which I will give you a debrief on

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Speaker 1: next time.

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Speaker 2: I'm on the edge of my seat. I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to say, I'll give you a review

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Speaker 1: out of five. Have you ever heard of I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you have. This is digressing, but we'll get on topic

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Speaker 1: in a minute. Of the Westbroo Baptist Westboro Baptist Church,

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Speaker 1: those people who protest at soldiers funerals and you know

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Speaker 1: anti gay slogans, and have you you've heard of that?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, they make our national news from time to time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, so there's a lady who was born in

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Speaker 1: that cult called Megan Phelps Roper, and she wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called Unfollow. Oh, it's fucking fascinating. Oh I bet

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Speaker 1: it would be.

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Speaker 2: Rare glimpse into what it would be like to come

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Speaker 2: up this culture of hypocritical heat.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. And it's so she is. She's brilliant.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she has got an amazing mind. And for

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Speaker 1: somebody who grew up in this, you know, like it's

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Speaker 1: really hate masquerading us love, right, it was just for

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Speaker 1: me who's fascinated in I'm fascinated and cults. I'm fascinated

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Speaker 1: in the way that we think, the way that we

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Speaker 1: see the world. I'm fascinated with beliefs. I'm fascinated with

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Speaker 1: this need that people have to be right, you know.

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Speaker 1: And oh my god, it's called unfollow everyone and get

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Speaker 1: that after you get doctor Bill's book, of course. But

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Speaker 1: it's such a fascinating insight into a culture within a culture,

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Speaker 1: and this we you know, I spoke before about basically

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Speaker 1: while we were off air, the echo chamber, you know,

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Speaker 1: confirmation bias. It's just incredible the way that some people

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Speaker 1: build this reality and this whole kind of paradigm of

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Speaker 1: we are the one, how many people or how many

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Speaker 1: groups like that we have the hotline to God and

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Speaker 1: literally they believe that everyone in the world, I mean

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Speaker 1: on planet Earth who doesn't agree with their doctrine is

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Speaker 1: one going to hell and two wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's like, and that's just the current people alive, right,

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Speaker 2: all the people before us also must be burning in

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Speaker 2: hell now too. Yeah, you're talking about you know, hundreds

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Speaker 2: of billions of souls. So, yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: I can't.

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Speaker 2: I got to get a little bit of a teaser

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Speaker 2: out of you. What was the spark that led this

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Speaker 2: individual to start questioning this dogma and leave the group?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were I mean, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: even going to say the word, but the homosexuals where

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Speaker 1: God hates homosexual gods and God that all of this

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Speaker 1: placarding hate very hateful and hurtful. But they always told

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Speaker 1: themselves it was coming from a place of love. It

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Speaker 1: was scriptural, it was Bible based, it was all that.

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Speaker 1: And over time some stuff started happening within the church.

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Speaker 1: So there was a very very unified front for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Like this lady at twenty five or twenty six,

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Speaker 1: still lived with her mum and dad, still was very

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Speaker 1: much under their authority, had never kissed a boy, had

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Speaker 1: never been on a date, but at the same time

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Speaker 1: a lawyer and highly intelligent. Most like there was a

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Speaker 1: highly disproportionate number of lawyers within the Phelps Roper clan

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Speaker 1: because they needed to be because they were always in court, right,

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Speaker 1: that's true, but they're just started to be like she's

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Speaker 1: you know, she spoke about the internal struggle of recognizing

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Speaker 1: things that were inconsistent and that you know, like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially the New Testament is so much about

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Speaker 1: love and kindness and forgiveness and turning the other cheek

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Speaker 1: and you know, the beam in your own eye and

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Speaker 1: all that kind of like Jesus based a lot more

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Speaker 1: friendly than the Old Testament, you know. But she said

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Speaker 1: she started to see within the context of the church,

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Speaker 1: which was very unified, and then started to fall apart,

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Speaker 1: and then she started to question. So you know, she

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Speaker 1: would get in trouble at twenty five years of age

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Speaker 1: if she reached up to get something off her shelf

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Speaker 1: and somebody saw a slither of her stomach, so she

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Speaker 1: would be punished, right and then and it just y

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Speaker 1: just like she started to have this awareness beyond the

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Speaker 1: programming and that you know, you think about the fact

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Speaker 1: that how we've all been programmed in one way or

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Speaker 1: another doc via media, social media, school, church, synagogue, mom, dad,

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Speaker 1: friend's family, and then you wake up one day and

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Speaker 1: you try to distinguish between where does my programming end?

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Speaker 1: And where am I? Yeah, like where's Craig? Yeah, where's

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Speaker 1: the end of Because you know, I understand objectivity, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not objective for the most part, because I have

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Speaker 1: subjective experiences and views and beliefs, and I have pre

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Speaker 1: existing values and ideas and standards and beliefs, and you know,

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Speaker 1: prejudice and all of that shit that I have to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge because I'm human. It's like, the idea of objectivity

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Speaker 1: and open mindedness is nice, but the practice is high.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's been some pretty fascinating studies that have been

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Speaker 2: done on not necessarily religious and non religious, but on

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Speaker 2: like conservative and liberal people, going back into like historical

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Speaker 2: records and looking at personality as a child and how

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Speaker 2: it tracks with whether the individual becomes a conservative or

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Speaker 2: a liberal on the right or left. And there's some

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Speaker 2: really striking parallels there. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think loops into religion, because any more conservatives, at

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Speaker 2: least in the US, are of a religious affiliation than

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Speaker 2: the liberals are okay, And one of the striking personality

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Speaker 2: profiles that you see in the conservatives and the religious

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Speaker 2: is this unquestioning obedience to authority. And I think that

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Speaker 2: is part and parcel of either it's being afraid or

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Speaker 2: you're showing respect, or maybe it's a combination of both

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Speaker 2: of those, but you simply do not question authority. And

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Speaker 2: whether there's like some sort of genetic basis to that

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Speaker 2: or whether it's just a cultural imprint, it's really quite fascinating.

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Speaker 2: But you can find families that are by and large conservative,

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Speaker 2: but then you get, you know, the black sheep of

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Speaker 2: the family, I suppose, wander off and become you know,

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Speaker 2: more progressive and liberal. Yes, And a lot of people

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Speaker 2: chalk that up to things like, well, they had different

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Speaker 2: ex experiences, they had more education, maybe they were exposed

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Speaker 2: to a more culturally diverse group of people. And I

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Speaker 2: think all that could be completely true. There's, interestingly enough,

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Speaker 2: there's some genetic evidence that suggests that variations in the

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Speaker 2: dopamine receptors of your brain also track with whether someone

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Speaker 2: is more liberal or conservative, which I find fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I for a while, I don't know if I've

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Speaker 1: told you this, ione bought my audience. But for I

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Speaker 1: grew up in a very Catholic church, which was just

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Speaker 1: very Catholic environment, I should say, which was not anywhere

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Speaker 1: near the authoritarian, megalomaniacal kind of level of control that

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Speaker 1: these people were experienced to. But after that, you might

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Speaker 1: think more or less me out to this doc. But

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Speaker 1: I was involved in a from when I was about

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Speaker 1: nineteen to almost my mid twenties in a quite a

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Speaker 1: strict Pentecostal church, and there was so many, ah, so

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Speaker 1: many familiar concepts in this story. And I'm like, ah,

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Speaker 1: Like I was engaged when I was twenty or twenty

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Speaker 1: one to a girl who was my age. In the church,

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Speaker 1: we weren't allowed to be alone together. Well, it was

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Speaker 1: really frowned upon. So I get it. I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, And I remember even then. And

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Speaker 1: I came into the game in Verticomma's late and there

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Speaker 1: was so much control and manipulation about you know, you

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Speaker 1: having your own thoughts and if you questioned anything, literally

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Speaker 1: I was told, you know, that's Satan trying to or

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Speaker 1: that's the devil trying to derail you. You know, It's

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Speaker 1: like you don't not Essentially, literally, you need to submit

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Speaker 1: to authority, and the authority is all the people in

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Speaker 1: the church above you.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know a way, if you started questioning things.

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Speaker 1: They can't control you.

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Speaker 2: Well, they can't control and the whole foundation, yes, of

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Speaker 2: what their beliefs are built on, starts to be rue. Yes,

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Speaker 2: what takes is a little critical thinking. It's not hard

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Speaker 2: to disprove a lot of the tenets of religion, or

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Speaker 2: at least it put some put some doubt into that model.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's why they completely frown upon any

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Speaker 2: inkling or any residue of critical thought. They've got to

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Speaker 2: stamp that out immediately because that could literally burn the

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Speaker 2: whole place down.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And it's funny how when you do think like

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Speaker 1: you think critically, you ask reasonable questions, you're curious, You're

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Speaker 1: that you are not allowed to doubt. You're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to ask questions, not certain questions, you're not allowed to

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Speaker 1: open certain conversational doors. You are It's like your job

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Speaker 1: is to conform. Yeah, and if you're not conforming, you're bad.

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Speaker 1: There's a little more than that, but essentially that's the

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Speaker 1: nuts and bolts, Like, if you want to belong in

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Speaker 1: this group, then you need to think, like, be like us,

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Speaker 1: agree with us, do not question, do not open it,

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Speaker 1: don't open any of these doors, don't hang out with

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Speaker 1: these people, don't like they, do not do. List was

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Speaker 1: fucking thirteen miles long, and I just got to the

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Speaker 1: point where and I did love the idea. I loved

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Speaker 1: the idea of a compassionate, all knowing or loving you know,

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Speaker 1: divine whatever. I loved that idea. But it wasn't even

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Speaker 1: the God thing that got me out of the church.

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Speaker 1: It was the people. It was the control and the coercial.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this doesn't make sense. You're not even fucking thinking,

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Speaker 1: like you're literally frustreating. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, speaking of nothing

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Speaker 1: much to do with that we were going to chat about.

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Speaker 2: But that's a great topic. I love talking about religion.

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Speaker 2: It's a fascinating subject.

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Speaker 1: Well it's really I mean, it's a multi dimensional thing,

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Speaker 1: isn't it, Like, because it's about it's about belief, it's

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Speaker 1: about ideology, it's about thinking. And you are not you know,

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Speaker 1: we spoke about metacognition before. But you're you're encouraged not

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Speaker 1: to think. Yeah yeah, you're just encouraged to conform.

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Speaker 2: Right and to have someone tell you not to think

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Speaker 2: or not to question. It's just the antithesis of being

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Speaker 2: a scientist or being curious and learning about the world.

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Speaker 2: So what are these people interested in control? Or do

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Speaker 2: they want to know the truth? And I'm for the

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Speaker 2: truth all the time, you know, I want to figure

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Speaker 2: out what's right and wrong. But I find religion so

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Speaker 2: fascinating because it can bring out the best in people

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Speaker 2: and at the same time bring out the absolute horrors

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Speaker 2: that humanity is capable of as well. So it's one

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Speaker 2: of these very very unusual things that from my point

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Speaker 2: of view, it's just crazy that people still go for

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Speaker 2: this sort of stuff. But it's it's extremely cemented into

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Speaker 2: our cultural environment.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of your cultural environment and religion, it's an interesting,

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Speaker 1: an interesting time in the States right now, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: As we record this, it's Monday the twenty second in

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Speaker 1: Australia and it's Sunday the twenty first in the US.

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Speaker 1: Not that not that we're a political show at all,

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Speaker 1: but in terms of behavior and human nature and culture

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Speaker 1: and God and religion, Oh my god, it's a bloody

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Speaker 1: pot purre of craziness for you, I tell you.

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Speaker 2: I just don't know what to expect anymore when I

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Speaker 2: wake up and see the notifications on my phone. This

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Speaker 2: has been one of the craziest elections I can think of,

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Speaker 2: not only in my lifetime, but in all the history

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Speaker 2: that I've studied. I mean, there's just every day there's

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Speaker 2: something more and more bizarre that's happening. And as you

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Speaker 2: probably heard just a few hours ago, Joe Biden decided

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Speaker 2: that he's not going to run for re election and

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Speaker 2: that's been pushed by a number of people since he

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Speaker 2: had a very bad performance at that one debate. But

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Speaker 2: it does seem to be more and more people coming

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Speaker 2: around to the idea that, you know, he's lost some

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Speaker 2: of his edge and it's not going to go over

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Speaker 2: well when people go to the polls in November. And

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Speaker 2: that's a very reasonable argument. You know, I watched that

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Speaker 2: debate myself and was just kind of burying my head

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Speaker 2: in my hands, like, oh my god, why did that?

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Speaker 2: Why didn't the Democratic Party prepare for this? People on

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Speaker 2: the inside must have known that this was the state

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Speaker 2: of deterioration that he was facing. You know, all of

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Speaker 2: his accomplishments aside. When you go out on debate, you

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Speaker 2: got to sharp, you know that there's unfortunately a lot

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Speaker 2: to an election that goes off the CV, that goes

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Speaker 2: off the resume, and it deals with you know, like

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Speaker 2: how well you can think on your feet, you know,

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Speaker 2: how witty you can be, how sharp you can be,

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Speaker 2: how few mistakes and you know you can have And yeah,

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Speaker 2: he either he had a really really hard bad night

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Speaker 2: or his age is catching up with him. So I

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Speaker 2: think enough people convinced him that it would behoove the

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Speaker 2: Democratic Party to go with someone else, and that someone

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Speaker 2: else has not been determined yet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't I announce it was Kamala Harris? Well, they haven't.

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Speaker 2: That that is who Biden offered his support for rot

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Speaker 2: rot Okay, but that obviously won't be made official until

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Speaker 2: the Democratic Convention.

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Speaker 1: Right, Okay. Yeah, So I mean I'm fascinated as you are,

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Speaker 1: with the Brian and with you know, psychology and cognition

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Speaker 1: and and yeah, I've been watching President Biden the last

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Speaker 1: whatever month like everybody else, with curiosity and yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't mean this to sound how it might, but I

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Speaker 1: actually really feel sorry for him in that, like I've

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Speaker 1: just you know, seen him struggle, and I just I

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Speaker 1: want him to be okay, and I want him to.

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Speaker 1: I feel like going, hey, you've done a great job.

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Speaker 1: It's time. You know, you've done a great job. Like,

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Speaker 1: let's not let the wheels get any more wobbly. Let's

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Speaker 1: just go. It's been great. I'm Joe Biden, thank you,

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Speaker 1: and you know, good night.

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Speaker 2: But he may have been a victim of his own success.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's had an incredible four years. And you know,

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Speaker 2: the media will tell you other some media over here

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Speaker 2: will tell you otherwise. But the country is doing amazingly

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Speaker 2: well given what he inherited, you know, coming off of

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Speaker 2: an insurrection, COVID was still nuts over here, and the

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Speaker 2: economy was in the toilet, all because of his predecessor,

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Speaker 2: or due to a large part because of his predecessor,

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Speaker 2: and he had to repair all that damage. He's done

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Speaker 2: a remarkably good job of it, and for understandable reasons,

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Speaker 2: wanted to do another four years and complete the job,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I can understand that, and I feel,

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Speaker 2: just like you, I understand your hearts in it. I

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Speaker 2: know mentally you can probably get there, but there's a

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Speaker 2: level of politics that involves showmanship and confidence and things

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Speaker 2: of that source. You can you can come with a

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Speaker 2: really remarkable resume of achievement and accomplishment, which I you know,

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Speaker 2: I think you can make a good case Biden had

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Speaker 2: really good four years turning this country around, and he's

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Speaker 2: got remarkable character, I mean compared to the other guy.

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Speaker 2: Come on, there's no contest. Yeah, but uh but yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you see that debate performance, it just speaks a

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Speaker 2: thousand words as to we really need to reconsider who's

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Speaker 2: going to take the helm.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of genes, not blue gens everyone the other one.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the relationship between cognitive function performance cognitive decline.

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Speaker 1: And I know that there's no I know there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of variables around this, but how much of cognitive

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Speaker 1: decline and say, his case and we're just talking is genetic.

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Speaker 1: It's just that's just what was going to happen. And

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Speaker 1: how much of it, Like I think about the stress,

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Speaker 1: the pressure that he is under, the lack of I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that there's a relationship

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Speaker 1: between stress, physiological stress, lack of physical fitness, lack of sleep,

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Speaker 1: you know, like nervous system, endo, crime system, all of

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Speaker 1: these things that are him. Like, how much of what

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Speaker 1: we're saying do you think is a culmination of four

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Speaker 1: years of chaos and stress or is it all just genetic?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd hesitate to say that there's like some kind

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Speaker 2: of genetic element here. I mean, the guy is over

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Speaker 2: eighty years old, and he has one of the most

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Speaker 2: demanding schedules you can imagine, and he's traveling all over

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Speaker 2: the world constantly. I mean, hell, it takes me a

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Speaker 2: week to recover from one trip jet lag, and this

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Speaker 2: guy's flying across continents like it's like it's nobody's business.

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Speaker 2: And then he's got to get up and perform in

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Speaker 2: front of millions of people. I make mistakes all the time, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Of course, someone who's got that kind of pressure is

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Speaker 2: going to make some simple mistakes. And then your adversary

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Speaker 2: is just constantly lying, okay, and you're trying to refute

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Speaker 2: some of these lies, and it's almost like a whack

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Speaker 2: a Mole game. You're sure you guys familiar with that game,

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Speaker 2: or the MOLTI pop up you whack it comes up

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Speaker 2: in another place. That's how it is. When you're just

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Speaker 2: buried in this avalanche of lies, you're almost paralyzed with

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Speaker 2: which one do I respond to first? You know, there

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Speaker 2: were so many thrown out there, So I think he

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Speaker 2: was a victim of a whole bunch of other things

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Speaker 2: that may not really have anything to do with like

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Speaker 2: genetic aging. But you know, let's face it, you know,

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Speaker 2: we start to lose it as we get older, and

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Speaker 2: that's going to happen to all of us some sooner

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Speaker 2: rather than later. True, I feel like it's happening already

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Speaker 2: to me. How long do you do if you don't

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Speaker 2: mind me asking? How long are you if you don't

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Speaker 2: mind me asking? I turned fifty four back in April?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Right? And what do you what do you do?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: I'm interested, like, what what does the guy who wrote

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Speaker 1: the manual? You know? Or not the manual? But what

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Speaker 1: does what does that guy do to? You know? Optimize?

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Speaker 1: Maximize what you Because you can't get new genes, but

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Speaker 1: you can influence your Jane. You can't get more hours

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Speaker 1: in a day, you can't get more innate talent. What

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Speaker 1: what do you do to optimize you?

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Speaker 2: I would I try to eat as healthy as I

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Speaker 2: can and as little as I can, and I exercise.

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Speaker 2: My go to exercise is running. I try to do

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Speaker 2: five miles a day, or at least five or six

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Speaker 2: days out of the week.

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Speaker 1: Wow, what about because I'm a mate head, I'm a buffhead.

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Speaker 1: What about strength stuff.

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Speaker 2: Doc, Yeah, I'm not as big on that, but I

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Speaker 2: do try to do a little bit of strength training.

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Speaker 2: But what I would call strength training you would probably

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Speaker 2: laugh at. But it's just enough to keep, you know,

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Speaker 2: to maintain.

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Speaker 1: I definitely wouldn't. I definitely wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: I enjoy the running so much more than I do

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Speaker 2: the strength strength training because I just love getting outside.

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Speaker 2: I love the feeling of running. You get that runners

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Speaker 2: high at the end. You know. I got my tunes

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Speaker 2: with me when I go. Maybe sometimes I'll put on

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Speaker 2: the You Project, listen to who you talked about last time,

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's just kind of a fun thing

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Speaker 2: for me to do. A lot of people think it's

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Speaker 2: crazy because they don't want to run around the block,

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Speaker 2: much less do with several miles. But I genuinely enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: And it's not only great for your body, it's great

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Speaker 2: for your mind, great for your sleep. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: so many benefits associated with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've started running again. I used to run a

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Speaker 1: lot as a kid, and I don't know, I'm very lucky.

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Speaker 1: I think like I just I've run on and off

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Speaker 1: over the years, but I've been running consistently the last

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Speaker 1: few months, and so I do waits every day. But

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Speaker 1: I'm doing about four days a week. Not far, definitely,

431
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: not five miles, which is about eight kilometers in for

432
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: us over here, but I'm running about probably the equivalent

433
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: of just two miles. But I just go out. I

434
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: literally run outside and run like a crazy person for

435
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes. Doc, Yeah, just get my heart rate

436
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: up high. I run for me. Yeah, quite quick for me.

437
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's that even running that fifteen minutes every

438
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: second day, or you know, four or five out of

439
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: seven days. Yeah, it feels you for it. When I

440
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: get home, I feel fucking amazing.

441
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's It's wonderful, isn't it. Yeah, I think you

442
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 2: know a lot of my formulas. What I don't do,

443
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 2: you know, rather than what I do, because what I

444
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: do is kind of common sense. It's what any doctor

445
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: would tell you is good for you. But what I

446
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 2: don't do. I've never smoked, never done any hard drugs.

447
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: I will drink on occasion, okay, but never to excess.

448
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: I don't eat highly processed foods very frequently, you know,

449
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: if it just doesn't, I mean, if it's not something

450
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: our ancestors would have eaten. I usually reserve that as

451
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: like a treat or a very rare food. Okay, it's

452
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: just got to be real food. And what about and

453
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: I don't drink any soda, no sugary drinks. I would

454
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: drink water sometimes coffee.

455
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about managing stress and anxiety? I can't see

456
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: you as being a person that gets overly stressed too often?

457
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: I used to.

458
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually went to the emergency room about a

459
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: decade ago, thinking I was having a heart attack, right,

460
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: because this was when I was trying to get tenure

461
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: at my university. And for those listeners who don't know,

462
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: that is an incredibly stressful ordeal to go through. And

463
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: I had a new, you know, baby girl who was

464
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: born with colic, and you know, it's just all kinds

465
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 2: of stuff going on all at once. It wasn't wasn't

466
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: a heart problem at all. But it turned out to

467
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: be acid reflux, a regurgitation of stomach ass into the esophagus,

468
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 2: which was eroding it so badly that I had a

469
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 2: constant pain in my chest in that heart area. I

470
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: was mistaking that for a heart time, So it took

471
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: several months to get that under control. But since that day,

472
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: I started to engage in a lot of stress reduction

473
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: type of activities, learning how to do some controlled breathing,

474
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: how to be mindful, take a small segment of the

475
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: day and either you know, think about things you're grateful

476
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: for or think about things that you could improve, but

477
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: in a non stressful, you know, don't beat yourself up

478
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: kind of way. And that really helped a lot. A

479
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: lot of people like journaling. I just kind of like

480
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: to think it through in my mind, but sometimes people

481
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: say writing it out actually helps them a lot more.

482
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 2: And I started to learn to say no to something.

483
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: You know, I just had to cut back on what

484
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: was on my pleat in terms of all the activities

485
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: and stuff that I kept trying to do. You know,

486
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: you got to acknowledge your limits, and even if it's

487
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: stuff that you think would be interesting and fun, for

488
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: the sake of your health and your sanity, you just

489
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: got to put reasonable limits on it.

490
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

491
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: And I don't take a single supplement, Greg, I don't

492
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: take anything really, Nope.

493
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: The only supplement I take is careers and it's the

494
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: only supplement I take which there's some some i say,

495
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: some science around the benefits of that also cognitively, but yeah,

496
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm like you, Doc, I've never been high,

497
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: I've never been well. I've never been drunk. I've never

498
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: drunk ol khol. I've never had a recreational drug. I've

499
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: said this on my show before Full Transparency. I might

500
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: have taken a few things in my early twenties which

501
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: might have helped me get a bit bigger, which wasn't

502
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: my proudest smart But back forty, I mean that was

503
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: nearly forty years ago. People would use steroids back in

504
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: those days in the eighties, like people would use protein powder. Now,

505
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't It wasn't even illegal.

506
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, sure, yeah, I don't think some of

507
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: the health dangers were as acutely known as they became

508
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: more aware of that, like in the nineties and subsequent decades.

509
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, you're you're talking about the era of Arnold

510
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: Schwarzenegger and you know some of these others, Charles Atlas

511
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: ads and the comic books and all that stuff.

512
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lou Farino, Yeah, yeah, all those dudes that that

513
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: that era of the mister Olympia when like bodybuilders started

514
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: to like it was the first time we'd seen like

515
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: the early days, you know, with Charles Atlas, in the

516
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: very old days, you know, with the muscle builder on

517
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: the back of the magazine. They were just guys that

518
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: were in really good shape. And then we started to

519
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: see these months disappear on stage, which were like cartoon characters. Yeah,

520
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to. So you wrote an article

521
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: called is our Fate Determined by Genes? And you said

522
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: something in there that was something like, there are many

523
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: possible versions of you in your genome. I just wanted

524
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 1: you to unpack that idea a little bit because I

525
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: think most of my listeners kind of we kind of

526
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: get the idea kind of of epigenetics and genetic variability,

527
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: but can you unpack that? So there are many possible

528
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: versions of you in your genome and what determines who

529
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: we become and how we become?

530
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: Doc No excellent question, and you'll you'll read about some

531
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: of this when you listen to Please to Meet Me.

532
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: But what that statement refers to was it was inspired

533
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: by studied done on identical twins that looked at this

534
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: phenomenon called epigenetics. So I think most people understand that

535
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: genes and code proteins that make us who we are,

536
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: and most people associate genes with physical characteristics and some

537
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: behavioral profiling as well. And there's this phenomenon called genetic

538
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: determinism that you know, you are your genes and you're

539
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: quite limited by your genes, and there is some truth

540
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: to that statement. There are some genes where you know,

541
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: if you have a certain variation, you are going to

542
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: get a certain disease. Okay, sickle cell is an example.

543
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: Huntington's is a good example. If you have a certain

544
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: mutation in that gene, you are going to get this disease.

545
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: But when you're talking about personality and behavior, that involves

546
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: the activity the collaboration of tens of thousands of genes,

547
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: so it can get extraordinarily implicated, and it's very very

548
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: difficult to implicate a handful of genes towards behaviors. So

549
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: this field of epigenetics, which really only started getting going

550
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: about twenty four years ago, was the idea that genes

551
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: are not on or off. Okay, they're more like a

552
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: dimmer switch, and they can be regulated with exquisite sensitivity.

553
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: So One of the common epigenetic mechanisms is called DNA methylation.

554
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to throw a whole bunch of

555
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: jargon out at you, but DNA methylation is not like

556
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: a mutation, which is a change in the genetic sequence.

557
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: DNA methylation is a chemical modification that takes place on

558
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: the gene or near the gene, and DNA methylation is

559
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: one of these modifications. The more a gene gets methylated,

560
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 2: the more it gets shut down. Okay, so that's pretty interesting.

561
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: It's a reversible process, and you can have enough methylation

562
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: on a gene to completely shut it off, or it

563
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: can be unmethylated and be completely turned on. So what

564
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: this amounts to, to make a long story short, is

565
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: that there's tremendous variety that's possible even in the same genome,

566
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: because all of those twenty thousand genes could be on

567
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 2: at different levels, Okay, at different points in your life.

568
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: So let me go back to that identical twins study.

569
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: I think it illustrates this case very nicely. So everyone

570
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: knows that identical twins have the same exact genome. They're

571
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: literally clones of one another, so they make really good

572
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: test subjects to kind of study inheritance and things like DNA.

573
00:34:54,160 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: So when scientists compare the chromosomes of ident twins, you

574
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: know that are very young okay, less than three years

575
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 2: of age, and they have a tool where they can

576
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: stain for the DNA methylation marks that I talked about

577
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: that can shut genes down. When they look at all

578
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: of their chromosomes and stain with this DNA methylation marker,

579
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: in the very young twins, they're all the same, okay,

580
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: So not only do they have the same genetic sequence,

581
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 2: they have the same DNA methylation patterns as well. When

582
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 2: scientists look at twins that are fifty years old or older, again,

583
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: they still have the same genes, but their DNA methylation

584
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: patterns are almost completely different. And this explains age old

585
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: mystery that scientists wondered about regarding identical twins that grow

586
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: up to be different as they get older. And there's

587
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: many examples of this. It's called twin discordancy. And what

588
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: happens is that sometimes identical twins as they get older,

589
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: they can look difference different in appearance. Okay, sometimes one

590
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: twin is a little taller than the other, some looks

591
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: like they're aging faster. Than the other. There can also

592
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: be personality differences. As the twins get older, some will

593
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: go into business, whereas others will go into construction, and

594
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: yet they have the same exact genome. It raises the question, well,

595
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: why don't they like the same type of job. And

596
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: then one of the more striking examples is that some

597
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: twins can be lean while their other twin is obese.

598
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: So you can get dramatic differences in physiology, in physical attributes,

599
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: and in physiological and psychological outcomes. And scientists this boggle

600
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: the mind. Because they have identical genes, they should be

601
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: the same exact person carbon copies all throughout their lives.

602
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: So what this is telling us is that even if

603
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: they grow up in the same environment, there's nuances in

604
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: their environment. There's different experiences that they have which can

605
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: kind of cascade into a very dramatic difference as they

606
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 2: get older. And what this study showed was that one

607
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: of the possible mechanisms to explain these differences in identical

608
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: twins is the different DNA methylation patterns, the difference in epigenetics.

609
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: So another helpful analogy that I like to use Craig

610
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: is that you can think of genes as the piano keys,

611
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: but the environment plays the song.

612
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking, you know, like to me, the way

613
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: that that DNA methylation happens, all those patterns, it's that

614
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems like logical to me that

615
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: that twin discordance in that well behavior you know, have

616
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: its behavior as lifestyle, nutrition, exercise, environment, you know, all

617
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: of those things are going to influence the way that

618
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: those genes express. So I don't really understand the surprise,

619
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 1: Like why would they think that just because because surely

620
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: they recognize that diet is going to have an impact

621
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: on obesity or body composition or that stress. You know,

622
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: a stressful environment versus a calm environment will have an

623
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: impact on one's nervous system and anxiety levels and that

624
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: sleep and that you know, if one exercises and one

625
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: doesn't exercise. What I don't understand the surprise, Well.

626
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: What you're what you're you're looking at it in terms

627
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: of studying the different behaviors that the twins had. But

628
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 2: what the mystery was is why should they have different

629
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: habits at the get go? Because they have identical genes,

630
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: so they should be having the same appetite, the same

631
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: you know, right, sires for certain foods or and that's

632
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: and they grew up in the same environment in most cases, so.

633
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: The divergence happen once they start to live apart more.

634
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: That's that varies from case to case, right, So you'll

635
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: say for people that same environment, right, right, Even if

636
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 2: you're in the same environment, though, you're going to be

637
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: exposed to different things. You know, one twin might get

638
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: mugged whereas the other did not. The other one might

639
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: have a bully and the other one doesn't. Sometimes they

640
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: watch different shows or get exposed to different people, and

641
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: that can sometimes that can make a very profound difference

642
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: in a life.

643
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: So if we could create a simulation doc where until

644
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: I was say twenty years old, if everything was identical,

645
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: everything experiences situation people they met schooling, I wonder if

646
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: there would be any divergence. Then I wonder if if

647
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: we would say, any differences if all the stimuli with

648
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: a sign.

649
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: Well, in theory, if they were exposed to all the

650
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: same stimuli and they have the same genes, you should

651
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: minimize the different epigenetic changes that take place. Because these

652
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 2: epigenetic changes that I've been trying to explain come from

653
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: the environment, and there's been a lot of studies done

654
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 2: now that can show how trauma can affect the epigenome

655
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: the landscape of these marks, yes, and how exercise can

656
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 2: do it, how certain foods can change epigenetics, and even

657
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: how things like meditation can change the epigenetic landscape on

658
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: your genes. It's a really remarkable science and I don't

659
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: want to blow it out of proportion because it is

660
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 2: new and there's a lot more research to be done.

661
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: But what it does tell us is that our environment,

662
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 2: our experiences, the things we expose get exposed to affect

663
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: genetic activity. And I think that's a really important thing

664
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: to keep in mind because it undermines genetic determinism to

665
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: a degree. Yes, and it says, you know, our feets

666
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: really aren't written by putting ourselves in different environment or

667
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: making changes in our habits. We really can control the

668
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 2: activity of our genes and become, you know, either a

669
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: slightly different person or even a dramatically different person, depending

670
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: on the nature of the circumstances.

671
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: You know what else is I love that so interesting,

672
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: But also it makes me think about I've spoken about

673
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: this a bit lately, where you know, like I've got

674
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: friends of mine that go to meditation and they love it,

675
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: and you know, it calms the farm.

676
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 3: It's which is on their parasympathetic nervous system, their heart rate,

677
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: their breathing, their blood pressure, everything comes down and they

678
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: come out of it like you know, the Dalai Lama

679
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 3: or I don't know, some suitable kind of figure. But

680
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: I've done and I don't hate it, but I just

681
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: and I'm the problem.

682
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: It's not the class. But I go in there, I've

683
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: done quite a few meditations. I'm like, oh fuck, this

684
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: is uncomfortable on my back. I better get another cushion.

685
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: Oh my knees, I can't get in this much inflection.

686
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: And then it's halfway through and I'm more stressed than

687
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: when I went in, and I think about the purpose. Yeah,

688
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: And it's like, for example, I love motorbikes. I've had

689
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: motorbikes since I was a kid growing up in the country,

690
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: and most of my travel is done on a motorbike,

691
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: not in a car. But the funny thing is when

692
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: I'm riding a bike, most of the time, I'm somewhere

693
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: between happy and really happy and comfortable and having fun

694
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: and relaxed. And I don't know, producing a bit of

695
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: dopamine because I really enjoy that experience. But the funny

696
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: thing is I can have someone on the back of

697
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: the same bike at the same time and they're having

698
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: the worst experience of all time.

699
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, and you have different DNA methyleation patterns,

700
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: is what they he Well, you think.

701
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: About someone who loves dogs versus someone who hates dogs,

702
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,959
Speaker 1: like the dog lovers on the floor with a dog.

703
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you know, they're they're getting licked

704
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: and they're padding and they're spooning, and they're having the

705
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: best time ever, and their physiology is a certain way.

706
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: And then somebody else who hates dogs is sitting on

707
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: a chair and a dog walks in the room and

708
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: their physiology goes nuts. But it ain't about whether or

709
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: not dogs create this or that versus how that individual

710
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: responds to that exact same.

711
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: Thing, right right, You know that was part of that.

712
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: Differently, even though I know I'm really digressing here, but

713
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: I think about, like I'm interested in the psychology of

714
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: getting offended, doc. You know, It's like if I'm in

715
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: a room like the other day, I literally did gig

716
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: and this lady that employed me. I was about to

717
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: I was presenting, and I was about to swear, and

718
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: I said, oh, is this a swearing or a non

719
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: swearing event? And she goes swear away, right, And I

720
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: don't swear for effect. I just swear because that's how

721
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: I talk. And it's probably probably I shouldn't, but I'm

722
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: a little too sweary. But anyway, the funny thing is

723
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: you might say, I might say fuck to a room

724
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: of one hundred people and one person gets offended, but

725
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: ninety nine people don't. And then I think, ah, so

726
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: what causes the offense? Is it the word? Well, clearly not,

727
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: because ninety nine people didn't get offended, So what is

728
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: that about? And then this whole thing of like, and

729
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get into the political correctness space,

730
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: but who do we cater to?

731
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: Like?

732
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: Do we cater to the one that might get offended

733
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: and then the nine none that think it's funny? We

734
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: discount them? Or you know, like you think about like

735
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: life is really an ongoing process of how me, the individual,

736
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: interacts with the world around me and responds to the

737
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: world around me. I don't know where I'm going with this.

738
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: By the way.

739
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: No, that's quite all right. That's what I love some

740
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: of these conversations. But yeah, offense, taking offense to something

741
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: is clearly on the person who took the offense, because

742
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: they could be a minority in the audience, as you're suggesting,

743
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 2: it can sometimes only be one person, and it's because

744
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: they've had a unique set of experiences that changes how

745
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: they are perceiving either the word or the act that

746
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: is creating discomfort in their mind. Yeah, and I'm of

747
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: the mind where we need to stop being so easily offended.

748
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: I think we need to educate people to because it's

749
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: kind of egotistical to be offended, right, you know, it's

750
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: kind of like, well, the world revolves around me. You

751
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: said something that I don't like, so I'm going to

752
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 2: tell you I'm offended by it in hopes that you

753
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: change your behavior, that you be more like me. Yes,

754
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: I find that egotistical. What you should do is just

755
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: let these things slide right off you. What's the big deal.

756
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: They're not physically hurting you in any way, and any

757
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 2: psychological damage you incur is what you bring on yourself. Okay,

758
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: Like you said, it's how you're reacting. And I understand,

759
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: and I sympathize with it. But there are tools out there,

760
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: There are psychologists out there that can train you to

761
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: change your perception. Okay, yes, and I think that the

762
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 2: onus is on the offended to do that, you know.

763
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean that they can't get behind a cause,

764
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: you know, to rally to change, yes, whatever it was

765
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: that offended them. But to sit there and suffer and

766
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: accuse someone of making you suffer because of your thought patterns,

767
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: I find that fundamentally wrong.

768
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I I don't know. Somebody sent me this thing yesterday. Doc.

769
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna this is not a great thing to do

770
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: in the middle of a podcast, but I'm going to

771
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: try and find it quickly. This this American pastor what's

772
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 1: his name, Bishop Bronner.

773
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: Just happened from there.

774
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: Just happened to me anyway. He said, stay away from

775
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: people who act like a victim and a problem that

776
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: they created.

777
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: Ah. Yeah, So that's kind of speaking to that same point,

778
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: isn't it. Yeah, And again I'm not trying to be

779
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: little in anybody's feelings. They're real, yes, okay, Yes, and

780
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: I sympathize, of course, But by the same token, you

781
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 2: can't demand that the world can form to your views.

782
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: We live in a very diverse population with people who

783
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: have had incredibly different experiences, and I think it is

784
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: actually harmful to tell people to stop talking, okay, or

785
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: expressing an opinion because you're offended. They have every right

786
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: to say it. They have every right to their opinion,

787
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: and you know, you're entitled to your feelings. But I

788
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: do think you're entitled to cancel someone or to shut

789
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 2: them down because of the way it made you feel.

790
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 2: I think, you know, the way you feel is kind

791
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 2: of your responsibility.

792
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's like an individual response to a particular stimulus.

793
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: And I think Ricky Gervais says something frequently like, it's

794
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: not my job to look after your feelings. It's not

795
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: It's not my job to manage your emotions. That's yours.

796
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: You know.

797
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: He's a wonderful comedian, and I think he would. He's

798
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: giving advice that a lot of psychologists would give one

799
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: hundred percent.

800
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: Hey, just quickly, before we move on from twins, I

801
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: just want to know is there something they kind of

802
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: infer I've seen a few docos where we're very very close,

803
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean identical twins who are pretty much intertwined. Their

804
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: lives are intertwined. You know, these twins that end up

805
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: marrying two brothers and they live in houses next door

806
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: to each other or two sisters and whatever. But they

807
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,439
Speaker 1: they they maintain that they have like basically a form

808
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: of telepathy. Now you know that that is probably just

809
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: a byproduct of the fact that they are identical twins.

810
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,919
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there's no hookus pocus about that at all.

811
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: I mean, if you have the same genes and they

812
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: build roughly the same brain, and let's see, their epigenetic

813
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: landscape is pretty identical, and yeah, you're going to be

814
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: thinking the same things. I would presume that in those cases,

815
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: those sorts of twins had very similar experiences growing up,

816
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: nothing dramatically different, So it would be yeah, it's not

817
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: surprising to me that they would be on the same wavelength,

818
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: if you will.

819
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 1: I know, this is like a too big a question

820
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: for a however many minute answer, But people listening to

821
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 1: this now they're getting the head around. Okay, my genetics

822
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: are my genetics, but the way that those genes are

823
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: expressed is a variable that I can influence to some extent.

824
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: And even though Dad had a heart attack and even

825
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 1: though mum got diabetes, that doesn't mean that I have

826
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 1: to have either. If we're interested in opening the door

827
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: personally on exploring, I mean, well, reading your book is

828
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: a great start. But other than that, like how to

829
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: optimize everything? How do I get the best chance of

830
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: optimizing my genetic potential? Is there a bit of a

831
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: stepping off point? I well, you know what I would.

832
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: Tell my kids, you know, in order to grow up

833
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: as as healthy and you know, with a with a

834
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 2: good well being as possible, you can go a long

835
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: long way by doing simple, common sense things. And I

836
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: know this is boring, trite advice, but if you eat

837
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 2: right and you exercise, and you don't put toxins into

838
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 2: your body, yeah, you know, I talk toxins like hard

839
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: drugs and smoking and things like that, you're going to

840
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,919
Speaker 2: you know, by and large, you know, have a very

841
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 2: happy life and a state of you know, a good

842
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: state of well being. Now, that doesn't always work for

843
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 2: people who have like some kind of genetic aberration that

844
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: leads them into clinical depression. I'm not saying that patients

845
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: who suffer that magnitude of mental health condition can simply

846
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: eat their way out of it or something like that.

847
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: But for most most people who are struggling with with

848
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: happiness and aren't clinically depressed, it's probably just an imbalance

849
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: in you know, these these processed foods and what they're

850
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: messing up in your body in terms of gene expression,

851
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 2: in terms of microbiome content, and in just in terms

852
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 2: of brain health. You know, how they're how they're messing

853
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 2: up your brain chemistry. So I always try to think

854
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 2: in the context of our ancient ancestors. Okay, not necessarily

855
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: paleo diet per se, but we evolved for tens of

856
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: thousands of years as hunter gatherers, eating real food, foraging

857
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: a lot of plant, a lot of roots, probably insects,

858
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 2: but I don't necessarily advocate that, and then occasionally some meat, okay,

859
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: And that's what we that's what our bodies are programmed

860
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: to ingest and function off of. You know, for tens

861
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: of thousands of years. All these processed foods are just

862
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: a few decades old. We really have no idea what

863
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 2: they might be doing long term to our health. We

864
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 2: certainly know it isn't helping with the obesity problem. Yeah,

865
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: So we just got to be really careful about what

866
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: we're putting into our bodies. So that's that's what I

867
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: would tell my kids, and that's how I would advise

868
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: your listeners. I know it's boring, but that's it.

869
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm boring. That's what I'm boring. We've got to wind

870
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: it up. But before we go, you wrote another article

871
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: which I read everyone. That's great. It's called you Don't

872
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: need a lot of money to read a Rich Life,

873
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: So go to author Bill Sullivan dot com. But just quickly,

874
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: one of the takeaways from that was that a lot

875
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 1: of global kind of surveys around happiness don't usually include

876
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: people living in low income communities, which I never even

877
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: thought about that. And that also one of the studies

878
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 1: showed that people from low income indigenous societies often report,

879
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, higher levels of happiness and life satisfaction, or

880
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: as high levels as what we would think as people

881
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: living in a privileged situation. I found that really interesting.

882
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 2: I found it interesting too, and I was surprised that

883
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: a lot of these happiness researchers did not look at

884
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 2: happiness levels in other societies. They usually focused on the

885
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: developed countries. Yes, but there was a study that I

886
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 2: wrote about in this article that specifically looked at people

887
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: who still live either as hunter gatherer tribes or in

888
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 2: low income societies, meaning they're making less than one thousand

889
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: dollars per year. Okay, And the way the happiness scale works,

890
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 2: it's out of one to ten being the most happy.

891
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: A lot of these societies were ranking up there at

892
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: seven out of ten, which is some of the happiest

893
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: measurements on that scale ever seen. You know, they're compatible

894
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: with the Scandinavian countries, you know, like Denmark and Norway

895
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: that usually score very high. And most people chalk that

896
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: up to you know, universal healthcare, universal college. You know,

897
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 2: the government has a very strong safety net, and that's

898
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: why these countries do so well. And I think that's

899
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: a good argument to be made. But what this new

900
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: study tells us is that you don't need a lot

901
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: of wealth or money to just be happy. Okay. So

902
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: and it kind of makes a lot of sense if

903
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 2: you watch any of these documentaries about some of these societies.

904
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: They don't look sad, they don't look depressed, they're not

905
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: moping around. They have smiles on their faces. They're laughing,

906
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 2: they're joking, they're teasing, they're having fun. They look like

907
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: they're genuinely enjoying life. Not that I'm going to go

908
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: join one of these tribes, Greg, but I think it

909
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 2: has some important lessons that we are chasing ghosts of

910
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: happiness in this country. We are going after the wrong things. Now,

911
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 2: the study doesn't address what does make these people happy.

912
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: It just tells us that they are, And it tells

913
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 2: us that you don't need a lot of wealth or

914
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: material things or fancy cars or anything like that in

915
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: order to be happy. And I think a lot of

916
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: us could probably by stress reduction, simplify our lives and

917
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 2: avoid chasing after some of these things that might make

918
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 2: us feel good momentarily okay, but don't sustain happiness. So

919
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 2: I think that's what we need to reframe the question

920
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: around is to what do you really need at the

921
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 2: most basic life level and you find out that it's

922
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 2: not that much. You know, you need food, shelter, and

923
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: you know, some community safety and community. Yeah, if you

924
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 2: can get, if you can learn to be grateful for that,

925
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 2: it goes a long way in building sustained contentment.

926
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's a really good idea to question

927
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: the stories that we have, like in Australia anyway, success

928
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: for the most part is about what you have and

929
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: what you earn and what you own and what you

930
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: drive and where you live and what you look like

931
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: and what people think are you and your brand and

932
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: your money, and not that any of those things are

933
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: bad things, but you know, we have this story that

934
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: this external thing will give me this internal state.

935
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 4: When I have that, I'll be happy when I look

936
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 4: like that. I'll be happy when I weigh that. I'll

937
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 4: be happy when I've got tenure. I'll be happy when

938
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 4: I own another gym. I'll be happy when my biceps

939
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 4: are bigger.

940
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: You know. In my case, like I spent my life

941
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: trying to find happiness until I was about thirty. And

942
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: it's not like I've figured it all out now and

943
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm the bad one, but you know, so much of

944
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: my belief system was built around this idea that what

945
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 1: was going to make me less anxious, more fulfilled, more calm,

946
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: more happy was all of these external acquisitions and achievements.

947
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: And the more shit I got, the more stuff I got,

948
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: it was almost I'm not saying that was the cause,

949
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: but I think I became more and more despondent because

950
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: I thought, well, maybe I don't need two motorbikes. Maybe

951
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: I need four. Maybe I don't need a fifty inch TV,

952
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: I need one hundred inch to or you know, and

953
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: it wasn't that, but it wasn't far from that. And

954
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: then you get to the point and you go, oh,

955
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: maybe what's not Maybe the problem is not what I

956
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: have or don't have, but rather who I am or

957
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: who I'm not.

958
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: Right now.

959
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: I know that's a bit philosophical, but we're a very

960
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: externally focused culture. We worry like, we worry about what

961
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: people who don't even like us think exactly, Like, what's

962
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: that about? Well, I really like that.

963
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: You mentioned the whole external internal thing, because the way

964
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 2: to happiness is, as these studies are suggesting, is to

965
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 2: flip that script. Happiness is not going to be found

966
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: in externals because there's always one more wrong hire on

967
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: that ladder. Okay, you can't stop claiming you're always going

968
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 2: to want more. Whereas if you can train your internal systems,

969
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: your inner monologue to be grateful for the bounty that

970
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: you already do have, yeah, you're you're going to be

971
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: in a much you know, better mental health state than

972
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 2: someone who keeps chasing after you know, more of this

973
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 2: fool's gold and then I like about these So is

974
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 2: the charity aspect, you know, and this stems from internal feelings.

975
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: A lot of studies support that the more you help

976
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 2: people and the more generous you are, you know, not

977
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: necessarily with your money, but with your time and with

978
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 2: your compassion, the happier you yourself become.

979
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. It makes sense. I love

980
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: chatting to you. Author Bill Sullivan dot com. The book

981
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: is called Please to Meet Me. Last question before we go.

982
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: I don't think you're going to like the question, but

983
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: I don't care. Who's going to be the next president?

984
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 2: The next president of the US. Wow, what a great question,

985
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 2: Alfred E. Newman. I'm going to rate him.

986
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: There you wish? Hey, mate, Well say goodbye O fair

987
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: but for the moment. Thanks again, I appreciate you.

988
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure. Greg