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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: I actually wish there was no need for part two

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Speaker 1: of this interview, because in part one we talked about

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Speaker 1: an investigation that resulted in Ian pack had been arrested

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Speaker 1: and convicted of the murder of Emma Caldwell and thirty

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Speaker 1: three other offenses relating to twenty to other victims who

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Speaker 1: have either been raped or assaulted. Packer was sentenced to

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Speaker 1: life in prison. That's normally when police pat themselves on

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Speaker 1: the back and celebrate the success. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: this investigation should be celebrated. There were failings in the

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Speaker 1: police and hopefully lessons learned. There's no higher privilege in

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Speaker 1: policing than investigating someone's murder, but that comes with responsibility

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Speaker 1: and if mistakes are made, then people need to be accountable.

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Speaker 1: In this part, journalist Sam Poling takes us through the

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Speaker 1: failings of the investigation and the lives that have been affected.

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Speaker 1: Sam Polling, welcome back to Eye Catch Killers for part two.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Look, it's just a sad investigation. We're talking about not

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Speaker 1: just the murder of Emma Caldwell, but all the other

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Speaker 1: women that the mpack of this monster, i'll call him

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Speaker 1: a monster. That the rapes and the assaults and everything

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Speaker 1: else that he did to all these women, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that he went on for so long. I just

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Speaker 1: want to make a comment up front. I think, like

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Speaker 1: from my policing career, being tasked with investigating someone's murders

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Speaker 1: an honor and a privilege, and it's something that I

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Speaker 1: don't think you can get a higher honor as a

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Speaker 1: cop being put in charge of a murder investigation. But

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Speaker 1: with that comes an accountability and I've got to say

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Speaker 1: I was shocked and disappointed when I heard things lines

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Speaker 1: of inquiry that weren't followed up, and my reading of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that they weren't followed up in regards to

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Speaker 1: Ian Packer when they were concentrating on the other lines

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Speaker 1: of inquiry. And I probably should put a disclaimer here

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Speaker 1: because you might not be aware of my policing career,

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Speaker 1: but I was criticized on a high profile investigation about

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Speaker 1: decisions I made and things I did. My position on

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Speaker 1: that and that was what ended my career. My position

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Speaker 1: on that is that we should be accountable, and I'm

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Speaker 1: calling for a public inquiry and I want the truth

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Speaker 1: to come out because all the facts haven't come out

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Speaker 1: on this matter. So I just want to address anyone

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Speaker 1: that goes, well, who's this jubilant character talking about police

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Speaker 1: stuffing up an investigation? But can I say this, I

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Speaker 1: wish you were looking at the investigation, and I would

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Speaker 1: accept if I'd done something wrong that we learn from it,

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Speaker 1: or whoever's done something wrong learn from it. But it's

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Speaker 1: too important.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I mean what I would say to

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Speaker 2: that is, I'm glad you want accountability. I get asked

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Speaker 2: to talk about this case all the time, almost on

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Speaker 2: a weekly basis. I get an approach, will you do

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Speaker 2: an interviewee to this, and I say no, I find

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Speaker 2: it very difficult to talk about It may not look

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Speaker 2: at it may not sound it, but I find it

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Speaker 2: very difficult to talk about, which we may come onto

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Speaker 2: the reasons why I later, when you asked me to

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Speaker 2: do this interview, my immediate reaction was no. The name

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Speaker 2: I catch killers to me, I felt was there was

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Speaker 2: a flippancy almost about it, and you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: almost provocative sensational title. I get it, That's what we do.

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Speaker 2: And then I looked into your background and I thought, shit,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's so many and with respect similarities in

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Speaker 2: terms of decisions made by senior officers which had repercussions

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Speaker 2: that are untold. And I thought, so my answer is

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Speaker 2: going to be no. And then I sat and listened

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Speaker 2: to your podcast. I then there is nothing about the

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Speaker 2: William Terroll case that I do not know. Now I

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Speaker 2: know everything about it, and I decided to say yes

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Speaker 2: to this interview because I genuinely and I've lost track

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Speaker 2: of how many of your podcast episodes I've listened to,

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Speaker 2: and the people that you've had on officers, criminals, forensic psychologists, experts,

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Speaker 2: you name it. And I just don't think the world realizes.

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Speaker 2: I think you do, and I think some people do,

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Speaker 2: But I don't think people understand the repercussions of what

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Speaker 2: happens in a merger investigation. I don't think people realize

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Speaker 2: the ripple effect, the damage that is caused, and the

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Speaker 2: decisions that are made, the effect that they have to everybody.

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Speaker 2: We are still feeling the effect of those decisions all

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Speaker 2: these years later, and I wasn't even part of the investigation,

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Speaker 2: and it has damaged parts of my world. It's damaged

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Speaker 2: the worlds of so many people. Women, victims, police officers,

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Speaker 2: you know, family members, people who were targeted, who were innocent.

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Speaker 2: Their lives remain ruined today. And so I'm glad to

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Speaker 2: hear you say and make that statement, because I think

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Speaker 2: some people will sit and say to me, Sam, why

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Speaker 2: are you doing this? Why have you said yes to this?

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Speaker 2: And why have you said yes to it to a

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Speaker 2: former police officer for whom there were question marks over

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Speaker 2: some of his decision making. So I think, A it's

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Speaker 2: a very brave thing for you to do, be very

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Speaker 2: you know, you know well done on wanting accountability for

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Speaker 2: what happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important that there's accountability, and I

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Speaker 1: have no problem with it. That sends me. I'm the

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Speaker 1: only one other than people that have been affected by

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Speaker 1: members of the public. They're calling for a public inquiry.

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Speaker 1: I want the truth to come out. So the William

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Speaker 1: Turle matter, it's something that's very raw to me. I've

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Speaker 1: seen lives destroyed and I think it's been lost, and

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Speaker 1: I think like we've Emma's situation lost about the victim.

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Speaker 1: It was a three year old child that disappeared. Everyone

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Speaker 1: should put their differences aside and we all should be

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Speaker 1: working together to find out what happened to the child.

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Speaker 1: So what that's leading into what we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about now. And I was to say shocked, Probably not

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Speaker 1: shocked because I've seen some bad policing in my time,

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Speaker 1: but just disappointed that this type of thing could happen.

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Speaker 1: And you touched it on in part one that decisions

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Speaker 1: were made based on ego. I see that in policing

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Speaker 1: too often. I think power that comes with policing corrupts.

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Speaker 1: It's in a hierarchical organization where you're the boss and

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Speaker 1: you can tell people what to do. I think that

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Speaker 1: corrupts and I think egos get bruised and we should

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Speaker 1: put egos aside and the most important thing victims. But look,

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Speaker 1: it's not about my journey. But thank you for saying that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad I raised it because it was the

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Speaker 1: elephant in the room. I probably should have raised it

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Speaker 1: the start, but I wanted to put it out there,

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Speaker 1: and I invite scrutiny on everything I've done in policing.

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Speaker 1: Getting back to we're going to talk about the trial

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Speaker 1: towards the end, but more importantly the type of information.

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Speaker 1: So after a point in time, a police officer got

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Speaker 1: in contact with you, you kept looking into the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And the police officer was Stuart Hall that got in

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Speaker 1: contact with you. I think it was a text in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. And do you want to talk about

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Speaker 1: what Stuart Hall said to you, who he is and

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Speaker 1: how he fits into the investigation. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So by this point, Ian Park has been arrested and

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Speaker 2: charged with multiple offenses. Right, So he's arrested and he's

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Speaker 2: charged with forty six offenses twenty eight victims. There's a

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Speaker 2: charge of murder, rape, sexual assault, abduction. So the case

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Speaker 2: is now live right, this is active, so I'm having

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Speaker 2: to be very very careful as to who I can

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Speaker 2: talk to and what they can tell me, etc. And

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Speaker 2: it's likely that these people are going to be witnesses.

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Speaker 2: It's likely I'm going to be a witness. So it's very,

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Speaker 2: very difficult to try and get people to talk to me.

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Speaker 2: And I had heard of a man called Stuart Hall.

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Speaker 2: He was a detective constable in the investigation which looked

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Speaker 2: into Emma's murder. So there were two investigations, the overt investigation,

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Speaker 2: which was the murger investigation into Emma, and then there

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Speaker 2: was a covert inquiry which was looking into these Turkish men.

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Speaker 2: And Stuart Hall was on the overt inquiry looking into

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Speaker 2: Emma's murder. And I had met with the family liaison

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Speaker 2: officer for the Caldwell family and telling me all about

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Speaker 2: his work. And it was only as we left and

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Speaker 2: I was just actually about to get my car when

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Speaker 2: he said to me, listen, you've got to talk to

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Speaker 2: cable guard. And I was like, who's cable guy and

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Speaker 2: he said, Stuart Hall. He's cable guy. He knows everything

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Speaker 2: about the case. And I was like, well, I'd heard

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Speaker 2: of Stuart Hall. I've seen his name on statements, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything more than that. So tried to

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Speaker 2: get hold of him. He was still serving and I

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Speaker 2: was like, okay, fine, And then word came to me

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Speaker 2: Stewart will never talk to you. He's not in a

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Speaker 2: great place, doesn't want to talk, he's now just retired.

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Speaker 2: He'll never He'll never talk to you. And then one day, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I get my phone goes and it's a text from

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Speaker 2: It's a Facebook Messenger text and the profile just said

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Speaker 2: Stuart Hall and it just said TV Sampoling And I

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Speaker 2: messaged back, please tell me you are who I think

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Speaker 2: you are, because I mean, he was gold to me.

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Speaker 2: If he knew who the you know, if he knew

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Speaker 2: who the killer was back in two thousand and five

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Speaker 2: and the police let him go, what how why? Like

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Speaker 2: you know, he was the key for me. And I

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Speaker 2: remember driving on the motorway leaving this voice note saying, look,

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Speaker 2: you need to be the Stewel I'm looking for. And

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Speaker 2: he agreed to meet with me, and I met with

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Speaker 2: him and he said, I will never go public. I

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Speaker 2: will never tell you my story. It's damaged me all

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Speaker 2: these years, It destroyed me, but he agreed to tell

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Speaker 2: me a story. And his story basically is he has

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Speaker 2: brought in on the investigation. He was brought in a

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Speaker 2: few weeks after the murder, and he's taken into the

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Speaker 2: production room on day one, right day one of him

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Speaker 2: being on this merger investigation. And you will have this,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure in your investigations, you know, in the

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Speaker 2: production room they have photos on the wall of all

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Speaker 2: the exhibits and the murder weapon, whatever. And he sees

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Speaker 2: a piece of cable and he looks at the cable

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Speaker 2: and that he says, what's that? And they said, well,

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Speaker 2: that was found around Emma's neck, all right, okay, And

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Speaker 2: he recognizes the cable and he says, that's a speaker cable,

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Speaker 2: but it's weird because it's burned at the ends, and

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Speaker 2: speaker cable doesn't burn because not enough voltage goes through

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Speaker 2: speaker cable. And and he's thinking to himself, that's been

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Speaker 2: used in a sign. And I'll bet you that's been

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Speaker 2: used in a neon sign. Because Stuart Hall, prior to

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Speaker 2: becoming a police officer, was a neon sign makeup, So

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Speaker 2: what what there is? He knew everything about neon signs well.

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Speaker 2: He then goes out and speaks to a woman and

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Speaker 2: she says, well, I was raped by a guy in

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Speaker 2: a van and he says, yeah, okay, but do you

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Speaker 2: know anything about the mccoldall, well, no, I don't. But

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Speaker 2: there was a man in a van and he raped

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Speaker 2: Emma and he also abducted a friend of mine. And

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Speaker 2: this this, this man's really important. Well do you remember

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Speaker 2: his name or the registration? No, but I remember the

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Speaker 2: sign on his van looked like it had red, yellow

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Speaker 2: and blue stripes on or something like he was a

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Speaker 2: paintral decorator something like that. That night, a van is

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Speaker 2: stopped in the city center of Glasgow and but just

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Speaker 2: by cops doing looks stop and you know, do you

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Speaker 2: know anything have you seen the missing women? And this

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Speaker 2: guy in the van says, don't know anything about it,

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Speaker 2: don't use these women, don't like prostitutes. He's really derogatory

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Speaker 2: about them. And he says, but you know, take my number,

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Speaker 2: you know, you've got my details, and they say that's fine,

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Speaker 2: And it comes through on the radio that a man

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Speaker 2: in a van has been stopped who's used disparaging language

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Speaker 2: about the women and the van, that he's driving is

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Speaker 2: a neon sign erecting van Stuart Hall. Hear's this, thinks

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Speaker 2: what a coincidence. So here he gets the task to

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Speaker 2: go and go and speak to Ian Packer. And he

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Speaker 2: is the first cop to go and speak to Ian Packer.

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Speaker 2: And he interviews him as a witness. Right, so there's

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Speaker 2: no rights being read that he's not cautioned. He's just

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Speaker 2: a witness. And he comes out that first interview and

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Speaker 2: he says it's him, he did it. I know he

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Speaker 2: did it. I will bet my life he did it.

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Speaker 2: And a Hall slowly starts to build up the picture

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Speaker 2: about Packer. Women who describe Packer, they take Stuart Hall

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Speaker 2: takes a photograph, a polaroid photograph of Stuart Hall that day,

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Speaker 2: and he goes around a number of women and say,

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Speaker 2: you know the guy who attacked can you pick him

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Speaker 2: out in this photo book? And he shows them photo books,

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Speaker 2: and one after the other after the other signs their

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Speaker 2: name next to Ian Packer's photograph, right repeatedly. He then

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Speaker 2: meets a woman called Pauline, and Pauline says, I was

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Speaker 2: I had a client and he was got really angry

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Speaker 2: one day and he took me down to a wooded area.

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Speaker 2: It's about an hour's drive, I would say. And when

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't strip, he got really aggressive and he terrified

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Speaker 2: me and he forced me to strip, and you know,

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Speaker 2: he had sex with me, and what she described was rape.

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Speaker 2: And Stuart Hall says, okay, wow, will you you show

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Speaker 2: us where the wooded area is? And she's not. I'm

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Speaker 2: dreadful with maps. I don't know maps, but I remember

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Speaker 2: landmarks because to survive as a prostitute, when a client

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Speaker 2: takes you away somewhere, you have to remember landmarks in

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Speaker 2: case you have to escape or they abandon you. So

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Speaker 2: she describes down the motorway, left at this roundabout, left

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Speaker 2: at the house that's got four chimneys that she wanted

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Speaker 2: to live in, left at the pallet yard, right at

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Speaker 2: the white cottage, get to the silver gate, and you

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Speaker 2: stop in a turning circle in the middle of a forest.

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Speaker 2: So Stuart Hall picks her up with his police colleague

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Speaker 2: and they follow the landmarks like a kind of Hansel

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Speaker 2: and Gretel trail of breadcrumbs, and they are slowly heading

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Speaker 2: down the motorway down towards England. They turn off to

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Speaker 2: the same landmarks that they had seen before. When they

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Speaker 2: had gone down to visit the deposition site where Emma's

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Speaker 2: body was found. And lo and behold, they arrive at

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Speaker 2: where Emma's body was found, and that's the moment that

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Speaker 2: they realize it's the Impacker. She signs her name, she says,

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Speaker 2: that's the man. This is the location that he brought me.

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Speaker 2: And that's the moment that Stuart Hall says, well, I

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Speaker 2: always knew beforehand that he did it, but this is it.

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Speaker 1: So at that point in time, I would be thinking, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they red flags, or further than red flags, you'd.

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Speaker 2: Behind, I mean beyond beyond beyond red flags.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: They have a man who admits to knowing Emma, admits

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Speaker 2: to paying Emma for sex, admits to taking Emma in

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Speaker 2: a statement six times to a wooded area, who then

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Speaker 2: describes taking this a woman to the same wooded area

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Speaker 2: and describes the woman, well, that woman was Pauline. We

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Speaker 2: then have Pauline taking other police officers Stuart Hall, down

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Speaker 2: to the location where she says she was taken, which

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Speaker 2: is the same place that Ian Packer saying. So everything

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Speaker 2: slowly in that moment just fits, and Stuart Hall says, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we've got to arrest him. That's it. So he reports

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Speaker 2: it in and he says, I need to speak to

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Speaker 2: the boss man and they said, well, you need to

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Speaker 2: phone the SiO, and he does. He phones the SiO

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Speaker 2: and he says he's he's taken us down to the woods.

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Speaker 2: We're down at the woods. He's taken us to the

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Speaker 2: deposition side and he's told let him go. He's not

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Speaker 2: our man, release him.

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Speaker 1: So this is the s i O, the senior investigating officers,

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Speaker 1: so at the rank of superintendent in charge of the

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Speaker 1: whole investigation over investigation, and so he's told to let

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Speaker 1: him go.

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Speaker 2: He's not a suspect and he's not our man. Let

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Speaker 2: him go, and.

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Speaker 1: You've got Stuart Hall. But but boss, this this this.

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Speaker 2: But but yeah. So so word has got back to

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Speaker 2: the police station that this has happened, and and you

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Speaker 2: know officers are like, well, this is going to be

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Speaker 2: great because you know we've we've got our man. Stuart

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Speaker 2: Hall goes back. He's all excited. I mean he said,

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Speaker 2: we were so excited. We knew, we knew it got

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Speaker 2: him a break.

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Speaker 1: And then to be.

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Speaker 2: Told yeah, and then to be told old, no, release him,

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Speaker 2: you are not to charge him not to be arrested.

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Speaker 2: Let him go, and he's like shit, you know. And

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Speaker 2: then not long after that, he carries on talking to women.

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Speaker 2: He carries on showing the police photo book. More women

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Speaker 2: identify Ian Packer, more women talk about being raped, more

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Speaker 2: women talk about being sexually assaulted and abducted, and Stuart

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Speaker 2: Hall's got this massive, massive picture. He gets Packer back

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Speaker 2: in again. He interviews Packer three times and each time

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Speaker 2: he's like, it's just him, it's him. So by this point,

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Speaker 2: Ian Packer, right in those three interviews with Stuart Hall,

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Speaker 2: has said I don't know Emma. I don't use prostitutes.

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Speaker 2: That's interview number one. Well we know that that's a lie, right,

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Speaker 2: So Stuart Hall gets him back in a second time

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Speaker 2: and the interviews go and you can see them go

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Speaker 2: from I don't use prostitutes, never paid for sex, don't

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Speaker 2: know Emma. Okay, I mean I maybe have used prostitutes,

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Speaker 2: but I definitely don't know Emma. Two. Okay, I used prostitutes,

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Speaker 2: and I did know Emma, and I did pay for

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Speaker 2: sex right the way up to she was my favorite.

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Speaker 2: I would look out for every single time, and I

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Speaker 2: took it here there and everywhere, so you can see

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Speaker 2: it slowly unfolding, and Stuart Hall can see this slowly unfolding.

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Speaker 2: He's taken off that inquiry. And then but they have

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Speaker 2: one and I don't know what you would call it

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Speaker 2: in your world, but over here they're called ties, trace,

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Speaker 2: interview and eliminate, you know, make sure that you shut

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Speaker 2: every single door, eliminate everybody. If you cannot shut that door,

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Speaker 2: they stay in the inquiry. Well, Ian Packer. Remember they're

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Speaker 2: still going after the Turkish Men. So there's a problem

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Speaker 2: because Ian Packer is still a problem in this inquiry

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Speaker 2: because that door has not been shut, because they need

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Speaker 2: for him to say, Okay, yeah, I know Emma, I've

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Speaker 2: been with em at. But by this point there's only

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Speaker 2: been three statements given. He hasn't admitted this. So they

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Speaker 2: get told, these cops, other officers get told bring Ian

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Speaker 2: Packer back in for a statement. But it's not to

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Speaker 2: be Stuart Hall. So this other cop, David Barr, amazing cop.

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Speaker 2: And when you see the statement that Davy Bar gets off,

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Speaker 2: Ian Packer's incredible. I mean it's pages, pages and pages

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Speaker 2: and you and Ian Packer breaks like that just in

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Speaker 2: the middle of this interview. And he goes. He starts

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Speaker 2: crying and he says, yeah, okay, I did no, Emma,

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Speaker 2: and I have taken her to the woods, and I've

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Speaker 2: taken other women to the woods, and I took him

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Speaker 2: her there six times, and she was the first. And

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Speaker 2: that's the moment that it breaks, and Davy Barr's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is absolutely incredible. Problem is that the Davy says,

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Speaker 2: the senior officer had said to Davy, get Ian packer

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Speaker 2: him for a statement, tie him, trace him, interview him,

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Speaker 2: and eliminate him. That's all you need to do. We

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Speaker 2: need him out of this inquiry. So he's told bring

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Speaker 2: him in. And then Davy says, he's told, but he

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Speaker 2: is not a suspect in this inquiry. He's not a man.

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Speaker 2: He's not a suspect in this inquiry. Whatever he says,

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Speaker 2: doesn't matter, what he tells you, doesn't matter what he says.

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Speaker 2: He's not a suspect in this inquiry. And Davy said

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Speaker 2: and said to me, you know, I was so angry

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Speaker 2: at that because basically what I felt I was being

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Speaker 2: told was don't do your job. And he said, I

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Speaker 2: was going to go in there and do my job.

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Speaker 2: And if he was a suspect in this inquiry, and

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Speaker 2: he's going to be a suspect on this inquiry.

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Speaker 1: That got to the point during and I think that

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Speaker 1: statement you were talking it was twenty seven pages long,

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Speaker 1: so a detailed statement from him, and at this point

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Speaker 1: in time, he's in as a still a witness, hasn't

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Speaker 1: been formal weeks, entered into custody or he's rights provided.

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Speaker 1: And my understanding is so David's been given those instructions

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Speaker 1: because I had to listen to that part backwards and

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Speaker 1: forwards listening to your podcast, because I'm thinking, no, this

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Speaker 1: can't can't have happened. But then David's during the course

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Speaker 1: of this and he's I can't eliminate this blake. He's

384
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Speaker 1: virtually giving himself up in the details, and then he

385
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Speaker 1: wants he phones the boss and says, look, I want

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Speaker 1: to enter him in the custody and declare him a

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Speaker 1: suspect and all the caution, cautions and protections that come

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Speaker 1: into place there, and he was told not to. And

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Speaker 1: on the reading, if I remember this right, the statements

390
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: go on detailed detail, detail, and then it gets to

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Speaker 1: be at page twenty six where you're just getting into

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Speaker 1: the juicy bits, and then it just basically stops. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's all I know. I didn't I didn't murder Emma Caldwell,

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Speaker 1: which yes, gives a truth to what DIVI is say.

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Speaker 2: It's yeah, And actually I think that's the sixth statement

396
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Speaker 2: that that bit happens, if I remember rightly what happened.

397
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Speaker 2: What happens is Packer admits to taking to some woods.

398
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Speaker 2: He admits to taking lots of women to some woods.

399
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Speaker 2: He admits to taking Pauline to some woods. He admits

400
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Speaker 2: to the rape of Emma behind the billboards. He admits

401
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, and then Davy they still need

402
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Speaker 2: to eliminate him by showing where these woods are. So

403
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Speaker 2: he gets pack her back and says, will you show

404
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: us and take us to these woods that you're talking about.

405
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Speaker 2: They pick them up, I think five o'clock one morning.

406
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Speaker 2: They pick them up, and Davy says, they say to Packer,

407
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: which way left or right? And every junction, which way

408
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: left or right? And Packer goes left here, right here,

409
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Speaker 2: And he tried to play silly games at the beginning,

410
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: going all right left, and they're thinking, okay, taking us

411
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Speaker 2: on this merry dance, you know, around the countryside, and

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Speaker 2: eventually they say to him, stop playing games left or right,

413
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Speaker 2: and he goes right and they turn up at the woods,

414
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Speaker 2: the same woods where Emma's body was found. And that's

415
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: when he knows that that I mean, he knew. He

416
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: already knew it was the Impacker. He knew that from

417
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Speaker 2: the previous statements. He knew that from Stuart Hall statements.

418
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Speaker 2: He knew that because Pauline had given the statement and

419
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Speaker 2: identified Packer and taken Stuart Hall to the woods. And

420
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Speaker 2: so Davy says, he phones up the roads or takes

421
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Speaker 2: takes back up the road and speaks to senior officers,

422
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Speaker 2: and he's told the same thing I've told you, Davy,

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Speaker 2: He'll no longer be he will not be a suspect

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Speaker 2: in this inquiry. He is not a suspect in this inquiry.

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Speaker 2: Let him go. And on the statements you can see

426
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Speaker 2: he's just basically gone. That's it. Packer is never spoken

427
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Speaker 2: to again by that inquiry ever.

428
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Speaker 1: Like and it sounds far fetch, but I think you've

429
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: supported in part with there is also Detective Sergeant William

430
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: Mason that is corroborating what David Barrs was saying. Also

431
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: fits into what Stuart Halls is. So I'm sitting here

432
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: and thinking why I.

433
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: Have to be fair to the police, right, I mean, look,

434
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: I'm impartial, but I have to be I have to

435
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: be fair to the police. In their initial inquiry. The

436
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 2: last phone call was to a Turkish Man. The ping

437
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: of the mobile phone was outside the Turkish cafe. Evidence

438
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: of rapes and sexual assaults being taken place inside that

439
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: cafe were being given to the police. And Emma's blood

440
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: is found in that cafe on this quilt. Right, aside

441
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: from the translations, lose the lose, these these ridiculous interpretations

442
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: from the hidden bugs, those points of fact alone would

443
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: have been enough, I think for anyone to go on. Right, Okay,

444
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: well this is you know, this is a good lead

445
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 2: and the strong suspects, right right. Emma by that point

446
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: was an injecting drug user. And remember she'd been strangled, right,

447
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: This wasn't a bloody murder. There were no blood forensics.

448
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: This was she was strangled. Okay, So the blood you

449
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: could discount the pinging of the mobile phone. So I

450
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: understand why they went down the road, the road for

451
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: a certain amount of time. But the problem was that

452
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: the two inquiries did not seem to be talking to

453
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: each other, so you know, the packer inquiry are going,

454
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: oh god, it must be in packer. Well, but they

455
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: discovered this covert inquiry is on going. They must have

456
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: something amazing, so they're in the dark. These cops are

457
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: in the dark, the junior cops, the detectives on the street.

458
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: The Constable's going, well, we think it's the impacker. But

459
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: they've got something amazing apparently, so it must be better

460
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 2: than what we've got and I have. And you know

461
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: you've listened to the podcast. I remember saying to Davy,

462
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: why were you not screaming this from the rooftops right

463
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: I would. I'm not a cop I.

464
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: For you saying, because I have screened many a time

465
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: from the rooftops two people above me. And this is

466
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: why I'm doing the podcast now instead of still working.

467
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 2: I don't understand. I'll never understand it. There is I'll

468
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: never understand. I will never understand the world you worked in.

469
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: That that creates an environment where someone like Davy bar

470
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: someone like Stuart Hall just goes, okay, well I'll just

471
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: shut up now, because that's the hierarchy. You know, every

472
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: opinion is valid. Every opinion should be equal. And had

473
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: they listened to these guys, Ian Packer would have been

474
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: caught back in two thousand and five. What what what

475
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: we what we discovered? Remember, we started to speak to

476
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 2: women and this this just well. I tracked down women

477
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: who said, oh, bear in your mind is coming up

478
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: to the trial at this point. And I started to

479
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: track down women who said, look, I was also raped

480
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: by Ian Packer and I was abducted by Ian Packer,

481
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: and but like, tell me what happened. Well, he would

482
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: pick me up in his van and it was it

483
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: was it was yeah, it was a white van. And

484
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: I remember sitting thinking, no, hold on a minute, his

485
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: van's blue. What you're talking about. And I spoke to

486
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: another woman, Yeah, he picked me up and he raped

487
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 2: me and it was yeah, in his white van. And

488
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, but his van was blue. And then I

489
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 2: found a receipt for the sale of his van and

490
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: the purchase of another van. And it was just a

491
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: few weeks before Emma died, before Emma was murdered, Right,

492
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: he had changed vans. Now I spoke to that many

493
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: women that you would either have to assume that Ian

494
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: Packer spent nearly every day in the couple of weeks

495
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: before Emma's murdered, picking up women, taking them to locations,

496
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 2: assaulting them, sexually assaulting them, raping them, abducting them because

497
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: they were describing a different color van. They were describing

498
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: the new van. Or he committed those offenses after Emma

499
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: was murdered. And then when we started I started to

500
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: drill down into the dates. They were telling me that

501
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: this was happening in two thousand and eleven and thirteen,

502
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: and fifteen and seventeen. So Emma was murdered in two

503
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: thousand and five. The police officers were shouting quietly that

504
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: it was Ian Packer in two thousand and five. They

505
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: weren't being heard. Actually, it was worse than that. They

506
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: were shut down, right, It wasn't that they weren't hurt.

507
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: They were shut down. And then Ian Packer just goes

508
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: on offending.

509
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm getting the saints to the type of person he

510
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: would embalden him, and the arrogance he had, like coming

511
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: to speak to you. Why wouldn't he think he could

512
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: bluffy Bluffy's way through things.

513
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: I know two women that I have spoken to, I

514
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: have met, I am in touch with them now still

515
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: they were taken to the woods where Emma was murdered

516
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: in the years after Emma was murdered. One of the

517
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: women was taken there in the months after Emma was murdered.

518
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: That tells you what this man thought.

519
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: I'd say, no, I won't say unbelievable because I believe it.

520
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: And just on the issue with David Barr and Stuart Hall.

521
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: In the sentencing, the judge made a comment and I

522
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: think you can pull something out from that because I

523
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: was looking at it. Okay, this is what I've heard

524
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: on your podcast, and you backed it up very well

525
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: because you left a trial supportive trial with the evidence

526
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: of Detective Sergeant Willie Mason. But also the judges comment

527
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: the vital work and this is on sentencing Packer after

528
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: he's convicted of all these crimes, the vital work of

529
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: retired detective Stuart Hall and David Barr has stood the

530
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: test of time. So clearly when it went to trial,

531
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: the judges looking looking at the evidence that they've presented,

532
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: and the judge is saying it for one of these

533
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: So I think that's supportive of what they've said.

534
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean Stuart Hall. I think Stuart Hall

535
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: was a witness. He was called up and recalled I

536
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: think six times.

537
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: That's an incredible amount of time.

538
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: Unheard of, right, I mean that totally unheard off. But

539
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: because it had been so involved, and the sad thing

540
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: is that many of the women who had taken statements

541
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: from back in two thousand and five, six and seven

542
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: there died, right, So he was having to be their voices,

543
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: and he was also having to talk to his interviews

544
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 2: with Packer, and he was having to talk to the

545
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: evidence it gathered and the journey to the woods with

546
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: Pauline who's also since died, and so he was recalled

547
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: many times. And I mean Stuart Hall, yeah, I mean

548
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: just honesty personified, incredible, incredible, the kind of cop that

549
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: you want on an investigation into the merger of a

550
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: loved one, you know, rigorous, Davy Barr just doesn't take

551
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: any nonsense, just you know he's going to go for it.

552
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: And the two of them I will never ever and honestly,

553
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: anybody listening to this is in two minds about going

554
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: to a journalist or telling their story about a journalist.

555
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: You know, choose your journalists wisely firstly, but secondly, just

556
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: open yourselves up to them. Davy Barr and Stuart Hall

557
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: put their absolute trust and faith in me. They didn't

558
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: know me, they didn't have to do that, and I

559
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: will never be able to thank them enough ever for

560
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: what their testimony allowed us to do and convicted Packer

561
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: right between us, we all, but it's them. They convicted Packer,

562
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, the judge had it right, yeah.

563
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: Well yeah. The judge also made a comment in regards

564
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: to yourself at sentencing. Credit to goes to investigative journalists,

565
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: notably Sam Poling, who shone a light on your activities.

566
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: So this is him talking to Paka. So look, i'd

567
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: say it feel sweet, but it doesn't because there's such

568
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: a horrible crime and you touched on or not touched on,

569
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: you talked about it. How many crimes were committed after

570
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: this when police had missed the opportunity, Because that's part

571
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: of the pressure when you're investigating a homicide as well.

572
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of serial killers we chase, but

573
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: you've always got to consider that. And if someone does

574
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: get away murder or a serious offense and you're not

575
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: doing your job and that person is out on the street,

576
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: there's other potential potential victims. And it looks in this case,

577
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: in that period of time that other women were assaulted by.

578
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean he had taken his m O right.

579
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: His was the streets of Glasgow. His prey were young,

580
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: vulnerable girls, right, I mean, here's the word women, but

581
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: there were so young. The first rate that we knew

582
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: of was a fifteen year old girl who was the

583
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: sister of the sister of his girlfriend at the time,

584
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: and it just moved on to women who worked on

585
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: the streets. He was obsessed with pornography, obsessed with prostitutes,

586
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: and then in the latter years we discovered he had

587
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: then you know, with the the you know, sex has

588
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: gone online, sex has gone into private sex clubs, and

589
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: he was frequenting sex clubs, and there were victims there.

590
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I just I think had he not been

591
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: caught when he was, although at nineteen years too late,

592
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: he would have he would have he would have carried on.

593
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: I think everybody is of that opinion. He would have

594
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: just carried on untold number of victims. I know women

595
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: that still haven't reported it, who are victims. There was

596
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: a book at a drop in center, which is a

597
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: support place for women for women who were working in prostitution,

598
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: and they had what they called the Beware Book, People

599
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: to be beware of and the impacer's name is in there.

600
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: It was in there repeatedly. There was police street worker

601
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: liaison officers going in and they saw the book. Nothing's happened,

602
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: you know. And the way the way that the women

603
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: were treated by the police was appalling, and the police

604
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 2: have since apologized. They apologized on the day of the

605
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: verdict for the way women were treated. Yeah, too little,

606
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: too late for these ones.

607
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: The trial, how long did the trial run for? And

608
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: you had to give give evidence at the trial? You

609
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: became talk about getting involved, You became a witness in

610
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: the matter, a key witness in the matter. How was

611
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: that experience for you?

612
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: That was? It was? It was horrific. The trial was

613
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: at five weeks and I was told that I was

614
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: being saved for the end because it was part of

615
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: the key witness were the interviews that I'd done with

616
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: them and what we've found out. And so I wasn't

617
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: allowed to attend the trial, which was hard after six

618
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: years of working on this investigation to not be there.

619
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,479
Speaker 2: And so I appeared in the last couple of weeks

620
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 2: of the prosecution case, and it was it was. It

621
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: was honestly utterly horrific. I mean horrific in ways that

622
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: I never never anticipated it would be horrific. But yeah,

623
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: it was basically showing excerpts from the interviews that we've done,

624
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: both of the interviews and then the prosecution, you know,

625
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: very cleverly pulling apart Packers lies because he would deny

626
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: doing one thing, or women were describing him as oh, well,

627
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, on the day that he raped me, turned

628
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: up at this brothel and he was wearing motorbike gear,

629
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: and Packer was telling the police why I didn't have

630
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 2: a motorbike till I was twenty whatever. And then we've

631
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: got bits of me and him talking about motorbikes and

632
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 2: all his bikes on camera, and you know, all this

633
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, so that you know, and all the

634
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: lies that he was telling. So sometimes he was lying

635
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 2: to me and telling the police the truth, and other

636
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: times he was telling me the truth and lying to

637
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: the police, and so it was, Yeah, it was. It

638
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: was tough, very tough.

639
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: And from like you've sign it's tough, and I think

640
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: anyone that says that it's not hard being in the

641
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: witness box. Yeah, hasn't given that the due respect deserves

642
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: to start with, because it is an intimidating place to

643
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: be and to find yourself. You've been reporting on stuff,

644
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: and for you to say it's tough because you've done

645
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: some pretty heavy stuff in previous inquiries and the investigations

646
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: that you've done. What was it about? Was it all

647
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: the emotion, Like you've been hanging out with the person

648
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: that's been accused of these crimes, You've spoken to the victims,

649
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: You're carrying a lot of emotional baggage when you're going

650
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: in there, and then it gets broken down to a

651
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: very analytical attack on your credibility and different things. What

652
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: was it about your experience giving evidence that you found

653
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: so difficult?

654
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I've given evidence before. I mean my

655
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: career has been as an investigative journalist. My passion is

656
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: investigating criminals, serious and organized crime. I've given evidence in

657
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: court several times before. That doesn't feaze me. I don't

658
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 2: get anxious about that. This was different because I knew

659
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: everybody involved in this this. I had some friends with

660
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: the impacer. Don't never think that you know he was

661
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: a contact. But I spent more time with him than

662
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: I have done some of my colleagues that work in

663
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 2: the same unit as me. You know, we spent hours

664
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: talking about things, and and then suddenly to realize that

665
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: I felt a certain level of responsibility and guilt about

666
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: the fact that there he is sitting in the dock. Now, yes,

667
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: it was down to his behavior, but I felt like

668
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: I had enticed the fox, you know, and it was

669
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 2: it was difficult. I knew I'd got to know the women.

670
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 2: I mean, you don't just you don't just get to

671
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: know women. You really get to know the women. I

672
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: knew their families, and there the kids' names, their kids' birthdays.

673
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: I would drop off easter eggs, I would take them

674
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: to go and pick up the hospital appointments, and that,

675
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 2: you know, you just really invest You've got a duty

676
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: of care for all of these women, and and and

677
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: so that was such a there was such a way

678
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 2: of responsibility that I felt that if this case failed,

679
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: and if he didn't get guilty even on one of

680
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: the charges, that would be that would be on me.

681
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: And the reason I felt that was because throughout the trial,

682
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: my name came up over and over and over. I

683
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: would get texting people saying you're getting it hard in

684
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 2: court today. I wasn't even there. I hadn't even given evidence,

685
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: but it was basically he said she said. Packer says,

686
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: this was Sam Poland's lying. This woman says that, well,

687
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: Sam Poland persuaded her to Well, that woman's given this account,

688
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 2: that's because Sam Polean manipulated it. Well, this woman told

689
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: this to the police. That's because Sam Poland drove it

690
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: to the police station to give her statement. This went

691
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 2: on and on and on, and then when eventually Packer

692
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: incredibly gave evidence. I mean, he was on the stand

693
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: for nearly four days. It was his evidence was about

694
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: me and about I was a light Well, Sam Poling

695
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: manipulated when she told me to say that, well, she's lying.

696
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 2: It's like, this isn't about me. But suddenly it became

697
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: about me. And it got to the point I had

698
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: to walk out. On the third day of him given evidence,

699
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't. It was it was, It was utterly horrific.

700
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: It was the most brutal thing that I've watched. And

701
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: to hear my name in his mouth constantly, and when

702
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 2: I took the stand before, when I took the stand,

703
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: and he would not look at me, would not look

704
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: at me, And that was the first time I've seen

705
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: him since since after the second interview, and he didn't

706
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: look at me. And then when his prosecution sat down

707
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: and the defense stood up, and then at that point,

708
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: Packer kind of turns and just looks at me with

709
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: this big smug look on his face, as if to say,

710
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: right now, now you're going to get it because my

711
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: guy's up. You know, it was just it was horrific.

712
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it was honestly horrific, and everything was about

713
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 2: my reputation and my honesty. And I've worked so hard

714
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: my entire career sinceter, but I find difficult talk about

715
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: I've worked. I've worked so hard my entire career in

716
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: all the investigations that I've done, and I've done them

717
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: honestly and with integrity. And I've always treated everybody that

718
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: I've come into contact with with dignity and decency and

719
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: kindness and empathy and everything. And to sit there and

720
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: not only for me to listen to my integrity being questioned,

721
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: but for my family to read about it in the newspapers,

722
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: for my colleagues to listen to that. It got to

723
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: the point where and I still can't stand the sound

724
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: of my own name when you read that statement out

725
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: the judge. I just can't stand seeing my name. I

726
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: can't stand hearing my name. I can't watch the packer interviews.

727
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: I can't stand his voice. And I think that's because

728
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 2: of having my integrity question the way it was. But

729
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 2: I also think I suffer from the worst guilt of

730
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 2: for everybody guilt that not everybody got a guilty verdict

731
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: for their charges, and that's on me. I take that

732
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 2: as my fault because some are the ones that got

733
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 2: not guilty. Were some of the women that were later

734
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 2: women later victims, who I had said, go to the police,

735
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: and I think that was I'd manipulated outlight. I have

736
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 2: guilt that there is a man serving thirty six years

737
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 2: in prison where he deserves to be. But he had kids.

738
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: They didn't deserve this. He has a mom and a dad,

739
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: he has siblings. None of them did this. And these women.

740
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: One of the women and just finally about this bit,

741
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: one of the women who I was incredibly close with,

742
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: who was amazing, she took part. She's Yvonne in the documentary.

743
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: She's just absolutely incredible, and you know, me coming into

744
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: her life and asking her to tell me her story

745
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: has destroyed her. She slept the night before giving evidence

746
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: in a car park because she's now homeless again, and

747
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: she had got her life together. She had a little boy,

748
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: you know, and she's lost everything. And to know that's

749
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: on me, I feel that's on me. And that's a

750
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: really difficult place to sit here today. And that's why

751
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: I don't like talking about this case, because I feel

752
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 2: the weight of everybody's lives and the damage that they're

753
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: going through. Had I not done what had I not

754
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: done what I did, had I not been digging and

755
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 2: investigating and got Packer involved and all of this stuff,

756
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: their lives would have just carried on because time has passed.

757
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: It was a cold case, it was forgotten about. But

758
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: Emma needs justice and she needed justice, and Margaret needed

759
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: to know what happened to her little girl. So it's

760
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: a very difficult, difficult place to be. And it's not

761
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: about me. I'm not saying this is about me. It's

762
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: about all the women. But I see Stuart Hall and

763
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: I talk to him all the time, and I see

764
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: the damage that has caused officers, good officers, women who

765
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: were victims and Emma's family. You know they haven't.

766
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: Got the.

767
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 2: Have they got justice? Have they got peace?

768
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: Now?

769
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: Not at all.

770
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: Saying I am so sorry we're bringing this up, but

771
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: sorry you or I'm saying, and I'm in a position

772
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: to say because I do understand what you're talking about

773
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: everything you've mentioned there, I understand. I can relate to

774
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: aspects of what you're saying there. But you've been very

775
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: hard on yourself, that is, sadly, and coming back to

776
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: what we started this part, there's a responsibility and accountability

777
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: when you're investigating murders, and it does cause damage. And

778
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: I've said that, and I've had to reflect sometimes on

779
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: I'd get home and you feel like you've just run

780
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: the wrecking ball through all these people. And I'm in

781
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: touch with plenty of people that unsolved homicides, and I

782
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: try not to give false hope, but I steer them

783
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: in directions to this day, and I sometimes question myself,

784
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: why don't we just let it pass by? It be?

785
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: But what I'm strengthened from with all these people that

786
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: I speak to and the people I've dealt with when

787
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: in my policing career and people i'm speaking to now,

788
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: they can't let it be like it's the damage is

789
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: done by the person that does the crime. That's where

790
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: the damage is done and they're the sole people to

791
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: be blamed. Yeah, can I say this if you didn't

792
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: if you didn't do I'm trying to be wise and

793
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: I can help you here. If you didn't do what

794
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: you did, there would have been more people suffering. And

795
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 1: you've seen You've seen like Margaret and Willie, Emma's parents,

796
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: the pain that they've gone through. You've seen the girls

797
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: that have been victims where people don't believe them. I

798
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: think you've done more good than you've done cause damage

799
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: in the people that you've helped, And it's about getting justice.

800
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: Justice doesn't bring closure anytime, you native if you think, okay,

801
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: well once it found guilty, everyone's going to go out

802
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: and celebrate. It doesn't work that way in when you're

803
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: looking at murder, it's just a horrible.

804
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: But I did. But I guess you know, you know

805
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 2: you're the experienced one in this. You knew that you

806
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: know that that that it doesn't bring closure. I I

807
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: kind of thought it might for some people. I didn't

808
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: realize and I and it goes back to my point

809
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: I made at the beginning of this this part of this,

810
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: you know, the second part of this chat, which is

811
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 2: I want people to know that the ripple effect, it's

812
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 2: it's bigger, it's wider, it's it's it's it's so much

813
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: more damaging than people will ever ever know. It doesn't

814
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: stop with a guilty vert It doesn't stop with the rest.

815
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop with a guilty verdict, it doesn't stop

816
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: with a sentence. It doesn't stop. It just does not stop.

817
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think so many lessons need to be

818
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: learned from what happened in this case. I would urge

819
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: everybody to please listen to this podcast and and and

820
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: I just you know, I know that the majority of

821
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: your guests are from law enforcement and or in that world,

822
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: and you know, take lessons from this, learn from this.

823
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: Well. I try to be selective with the people I've

824
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: get from law enforcement and the people I look up

825
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: to and the people I respect. And Yeah, what comes

826
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: out in bucket loads from you is you've got empathy

827
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: for all the people involved, all the great detectives I know,

828
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 1: the ones I looked up to, the ones I tried

829
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: to aspire to be, all carried that empathy. What's the

830
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: most important characteristic he talks to you at all. I

831
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: could just hear it in his voice. What the decent

832
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: person he was listening to your podcasts. A great police

833
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: and they're butting heads with an organization. That that's why

834
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: I like what we talked about at the start. We've

835
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: police been more accountable because gone are the days where

836
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: they can just rule the roots and nothing to see here. Man,

837
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: the police are got this all under hand. Just move along.

838
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: Those days are gone and people need to be accountable.

839
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: Some good has come out of this, and I've got

840
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: some comments from the judgement. I think you have encapsulated

841
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, and also the family lawyer

842
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: just one of the comments. One of this is a

843
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: quote from Ember's family lawyer. After the court matter. The

844
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: family's lawyer, Ama Enua, described Packer has been one of

845
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: the UK's were sex offenders and called for a robust

846
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: judge led public inquiry into the original police investigation, adding

847
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: that some officers had blood on their hands. Okay, that's

848
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: a solicit. They're always prone to make the big statements,

849
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: but reading between the lines, it's all about accountability and

850
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: I think with this we do need to be accountable.

851
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I obviously approached the police officers

852
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: who were responsible for the decision making, including the SiO

853
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: of the entire case, but also the senior officer for

854
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: the covert investigation against the Turkishmen. Neither of them would

855
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: give me interviews. The statements that I got basically were

856
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: we await the public inquiry, and the SiO said in

857
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: I was looking forward to telling his side of the

858
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: story at the public inquiry. I look forward to that too.

859
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 2: Everybody is looking forward to that.

860
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: Well, there is always two sides, and I think you

861
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: balanced it out with not just straight out criticism. There

862
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: were reasons that the turkish Men were being looked at,

863
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: but in the same regards, I'm just saying from a

864
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: homicide detective, the bit of information I've got that it

865
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: was pretty strong on Pecker and that should have been

866
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: pursued to the inth degree place of Yeah.

867
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: I just was sorry. So I just I really wanted

868
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: to say, you know, I'm not amazing. I'm not this

869
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: magical investigative journalist that just managed to get all of

870
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 2: this evidence right and just do the most brilliant job.

871
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: The evidence was there, right, The evidence was all that'd

872
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: love to be able to say it was me. The

873
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: evidence was there, it was there, Okay, you just.

874
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: Pulled the curtain back all of it. Yeah, well, look,

875
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: I think the place So I'd like to think the

876
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 1: police have learned from this and like from lessons learned,

877
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: and I think the Scottish Police has apologized for the

878
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: original inquiry was handled, but that was then it was

879
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: run by Strathclyde Police which no longer. They've been taken

880
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: over by Scottish Police. It's just a restructure, is it. Yeah.

881
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: So basically there were regional area police forces and that

882
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: became one single national force, Police Scotland.

883
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, we've also got a quote that attributed to

884
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: Police Scotland and McCall will, her family and many other

885
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: victims were let down by policing in two thousand and

886
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: five for what for that? We're very sorry, the force said.

887
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: I've had a police commissioner come up and apologize to

888
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: an indigenous community about a way of an investigation in

889
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: your serial killer was handled. And it took ten years

890
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: to get the commissioner up there, came up there and said, look,

891
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: we're sorry, we could have done things better. It doesn't

892
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: solve the problem. It doesn't fix a problem, but it

893
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: means something at least when they acknowledge. And there was

894
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: also Deputy Chief Countable bick Smith, who is a crime

895
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: portfolio for Scotland Police. She's also made comments I heard

896
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: towards the end of the podcast of changes that are

897
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: being made and things that they're improving on. Do you

898
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: believe that they come in the play? Yeah.

899
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: Look, I think it's a different world. I think the

900
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: world has changed, and I think I think the way

901
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: that the police deal with victims of sexual offending has changed.

902
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: I think the way that police deal with women who

903
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: work within the sex trade and workers prostitutes, I think

904
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: that is changing, and I think there is perhaps a

905
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: kind of more of a holistic approach in terms of

906
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: law enforcement and all the agencies perhaps working together. Are

907
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: we ever going to change attitudes towards women like this? No,

908
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think there will always be

909
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: some of those voices, disrespect for, disparaging, unpleasant attitudes, archaic

910
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: attitudes that have got absolutely no place in today's society,

911
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 2: but they will always be there. I think they're getting fewer.

912
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: Well, there's always for improvement. The impacker ended up getting

913
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: thirty or life imprisonment, which is a minimum of thirty

914
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: six years for the murder of Emma Caldwell. And I

915
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: think also was it thirty three other offenseates for twenty

916
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: two other victims.

917
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, he got thirty six years for Emma's murder

918
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 2: minimum before parole, and yeah, twenty two other victims he

919
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: got twenty eight years to seven currently, So yeah, the

920
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 2: minimum before he can get parole is thirty six years.

921
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 2: He will, he will undoubtedly die in prison.

922
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 1: What a journey that you found your involved in. Have

923
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: have you got any other projects going at the moment?

924
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: Or he's just taking a step back. You can't see

925
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: that that kid still involved, That teenage girl that kept

926
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: hassling the BBC for a job is still there.

927
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, always.

928
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: Look, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, and

929
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: I appreciate your due diligence and I catch killers. You're

930
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 1: the first person that's said about the name. I sit

931
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,959
Speaker 1: here sometimes and think it started. It started. I didn't

932
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: know what I was in for, and we're stuck with it.

933
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: But I'd like to think that the work that we

934
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: do on the podcast here, having people like yourself and

935
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: make people like if police are listening to this is

936
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: not about bashing police. It's about lessons learned and why

937
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: was a mistake made. If a mistake was made, what

938
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 1: lessons have we learned from that to prevent that type

939
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: of type of thing. And I would as this wide

940
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: wise old ex homicide detective just say this to you.

941
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: Be kind to yourself. What what you did is tremendous

942
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: at something you should be very proud of. And uh yeah,

943
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: there's gonna there's always going to be collateral damage when

944
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: you go hard finding out the truth of why someone's

945
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: life life has been taken.

946
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate the words.

947
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: Thanks very much. All the best for the future.

948
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 2: Thank you.

949
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 1: Jeers hm mhm