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Speaker 1: I get a team.

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Speaker 2: It's the project. That's you at s Glespo, It's Harps,

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Speaker 2: it's Cookie. It's that time of the fortnight where the

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Speaker 2: great man from the Banana State, the Sunshine State drops

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Speaker 2: by and just bloody blows us away with his great,

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Speaker 2: big fucking brain and his questionable attitude. Loves TIF, hates me,

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Speaker 2: tolerates me anyway. That's the price. That's the price we pay.

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Speaker 2: We'll start with the world famous international, well traveled speaker

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Speaker 2: that is TIF. Cook will say a low to her,

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Speaker 2: the one with all the issues.

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Speaker 1: Hello Cookie, plenty of issues, but hello, Hello, Craig Anthony.

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Speaker 2: Harper, issues for days and you and I did a

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Speaker 2: podcast yesterday and there was one funny bit that we

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Speaker 2: had to leave out because of the potential lawsuits that

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Speaker 2: would have come our way. I did mention that it

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Speaker 2: was a zinger, and you sorry, David, I'll be thirteen seconds.

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Speaker 2: You did want to know what the zing? Can you

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Speaker 2: just confirm to the listeners that it was, in fact, hilaris, I.

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Speaker 1: Would like it was an absolute zinger.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll tell David when we finished. We'll tell David.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you better, Bloody will tell me. Yeah, it's been

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Speaker 1: going on about it. It's sad that political correctness is

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Speaker 1: a thing, because gee, it was good. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were having fun and I was on a

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Speaker 2: bit of a role. I was already right at the

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Speaker 2: fucking edge. I was just I was just at the

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Speaker 2: edge of what is probably okay. And there was one

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Speaker 2: that was just would have been the icing on the

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Speaker 2: politically incorrect cake. Ah, But for some unknown reason, I

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Speaker 2: showed great restraint and but I'll share it with you.

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Speaker 2: But it would have been a fucking killer. But I

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Speaker 2: would have got a few emails. But anyway, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: How are you, David?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, for a Wednesday?

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Speaker 2: What's going what's going on? Why are we doing it?

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Speaker 2: This at seven o'clock. Not that I'm not grateful. I'm

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Speaker 2: always grateful. Did you have a date earlier or something?

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Speaker 1: It's no, no, no, I just I have to it's boring.

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Speaker 1: I won't bore you with it. I had something else

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Speaker 1: on that had to be done.

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Speaker 2: Your actual job. Get in the road of this fullshit.

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Speaker 1: That's all right, Yeah, but this is Yeah. I thought

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Speaker 1: we might have a bit of a chat today about

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Speaker 1: baby food. What do you reckon?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's somebody told me about it earlier today?

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Speaker 3: Did you read David's article on formula is a formula?

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Speaker 3: Baby food formula? And then I went to try to

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Speaker 3: find it, and I definitely went to the wrong place,

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Speaker 3: and I thought it must be an old one, but

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Speaker 3: it's not.

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Speaker 2: You wrote it today, the Great baby food Scam. That's

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Speaker 2: not your title, that's mine.

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Speaker 1: Tell us, Okay. So we briefly talked about this a

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Speaker 1: little while ago when we talked about I think it

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Speaker 1: might have been been the last time, and we talked

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Speaker 1: about the immunity advantages for breast fee eating mothers, so

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Speaker 1: the immunity advantage that's given to their children, and I

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Speaker 1: think you asked right at the end of it about

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Speaker 1: you know, what what does this mean for women who

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Speaker 1: can't breastfeed and so on, And we talk briefly about

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Speaker 1: the fact that the very much the preferred thing is

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Speaker 1: that women breastfeed if they possibly can, preferably for twelve.

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Speaker 2: Th sorry, also my bad. We're talking about reduced incidents

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Speaker 2: of certain or potential correlations with disease were lower for

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Speaker 2: women who breastfeed first, that's right, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And for their children as well. So they're undoubted, undoubted

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Speaker 1: advantages to breastfeeding, and so you know, reiterate once again,

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Speaker 1: if women can possibly breastfeed, then A they should do it,

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Speaker 1: and b they should do it for as long as

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Speaker 1: they can, preferably twelve months. I know twelve months is

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Speaker 1: to be asked, but if you can at all manage it,

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Speaker 1: then it's the advantages not only for the baby, which

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Speaker 1: are huge, but also for the mother significant as well. Now,

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Speaker 1: because of that, the World Health Organization in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: two major pronouncement that said that essentially and also asked

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Speaker 1: formula manufacturers as a result of some quite nasty marketing

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Speaker 1: techniques that were going on, particularly with Nesle in Africa,

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Speaker 1: where they were just basically encouraging women who are quite

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Speaker 1: capable of breastfeeding to use formula using god knows what

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Speaker 1: water that they found to mix with it and obviously

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Speaker 1: processed by the mother's body and then delivered. Is much much,

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Speaker 1: much safer in those circumstances than mixing milk powder with

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Speaker 1: water where the waters of dubious origin. So there were

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Speaker 1: some big scandals about that. World Health Organization ninety ninety

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Speaker 1: two came to a historic agreement with a lot of

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Speaker 1: the world's formula manufacturers and came out with a statement

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Speaker 1: that said rest is best basically, and everyone's going to

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Speaker 1: agree that, and a lot of the manufacturers said that

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Speaker 1: they would put things to that effect on their websites

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Speaker 1: and put out press releases to that effect and make

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Speaker 1: sure that they didn't encourage women to use formula during

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Speaker 1: the first twelve months. Now, how that translated into Australian

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Speaker 1: law is quite interesting because what happened here is the

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Speaker 1: ahable C, who are our regulator for competition, basically had

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Speaker 1: a gentleman's agreement with the big Australian manufacturers that they

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Speaker 1: would not advertise formula. So what's called infant formula or

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Speaker 1: stage is one and two, which is six months and

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Speaker 1: twelve months the first six months and then follow on

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Speaker 1: which is the twelve months. They wouldn't advertise that in

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Speaker 1: the Australian market. And while that the Australian Competition Commission

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Speaker 1: would normally be against people agreeing not to advertise things

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Speaker 1: because that's anti competitive and they want people to compete,

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Speaker 1: they felt that the benefit of this, in accordance with

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Speaker 1: the World Health Organization's pronouncement, was was worth the effect

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Speaker 1: on competition, and so they had this gentleman's agreement with

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Speaker 1: all the big manufacturers, we're okay with you agreeing not

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Speaker 1: to advertise this, and we in fact want you to

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Speaker 1: not advertise this. And that was the way it's been

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Speaker 1: for the last thirty years, where the big manufacturers have said,

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Speaker 1: we are not going to advertise formula because we don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk people out of breastfeeding, except there's been

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Speaker 1: a loophole you could drive a truck through in this,

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Speaker 1: which is there was absolutely nothing to stop them doing

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Speaker 1: exactly what they did do, which was create essentially sugar milk,

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Speaker 1: call it Stage three formula, branded exactly the same as

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Speaker 1: the Stage one and two that they were not going

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Speaker 1: to advertise, and then advertise the hell out of it.

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Speaker 1: So what they did was say, yeah, yeah, we agree,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to advertise formula. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: go out and compete with breastfeeding, not going to do that,

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Speaker 1: all perfectly fine, and they haven't. They haven't advertised infant formula.

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Speaker 1: What they have advertised heavily is tins of staff that

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Speaker 1: look identical and I mean identical to that those formulas

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Speaker 1: and said, but we'll advertise that, ah, but it's not this,

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Speaker 1: it's not we're not advertising the infant formula. We're advertising

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Speaker 1: toddler milk. Now, toddler milk is skim milk plus sugar. Okay,

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Speaker 1: has zero nutritional benefit whatsoever. But it's advertised heavily on

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Speaker 1: television anywhere you want to look, and it is also

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Speaker 1: branded exactly the same. So is what does someone do

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Speaker 1: when they go to the supermarket and they see the

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Speaker 1: tins there and there's the infant formula and the toleert milk,

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Speaker 1: and it all looks it's exactly the same. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: go ahead and buy the infant formula, thinking, oh, all

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Speaker 1: these health benefits blah blah blah that they're talking about,

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Speaker 1: that's fine. And so effectively what they've done is create

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Speaker 1: a half billion dollar industry out of doing what they

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Speaker 1: promised not to do. And this year the A Trible

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Speaker 1: C said enough's enough, mate, enough's enough. We're not going

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Speaker 1: with this anymore. Okay, you're not abiding by the spirit

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Speaker 1: of the agreement. It's over. Our handshake deal is out

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Speaker 1: the window. So the A Triple C said that earlier

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Speaker 1: this year, and the federal government has said, yeah, we agree,

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Speaker 1: we're going to We're actually going to it's no longer voluntary.

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Speaker 1: We're going to introduce laws that stop you doing this.

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Speaker 2: Can I just interject for one secon because I'm a

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Speaker 2: sixty year old man who knows fuck all about toddlers.

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Speaker 2: Is a toddler like two years plus?

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Speaker 1: Is that at all? What they agreed not to advertise

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Speaker 1: too was anything under one because the stuff fed to

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Speaker 1: children under the age of one is very very heavily regulated,

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Speaker 1: so you can't fill it with sugar. It's got to

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Speaker 1: be exact formula within exact ranges, so it's very heavily regulated,

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Speaker 1: particularly in Australia, and they agreed they wouldn't advertise that

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Speaker 1: because it's meant to be an alternative to breastfeeding only

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Speaker 1: when breastfeeding is not possible, so they didn't. They haven't

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Speaker 1: advertised with that, But what they do is they call

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Speaker 1: it so formulas are broken up into what's called stage

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Speaker 1: one and stage two. Stage one is the first six

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Speaker 1: months has a very particular formula associated with it. Stage

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Speaker 1: two is what's called supplemental feeding, which is by six

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Speaker 1: months the child should be having some solids, and so

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Speaker 1: the formula that has fed to them changes to give

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Speaker 1: them different things in the second six months. So that's

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Speaker 1: Stage two formula. Now, what the food companies did is

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Speaker 1: invent something that didn't exist, and they've branded it as

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Speaker 1: Stage three formula, and what that means is from twelve

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Speaker 1: months onwards, and then also from Stage four formula, which

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Speaker 1: I think is from eighteen months or two years on now.

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Speaker 1: Stage three and four formula are sugar and skim milk powder. Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're not formula at all, but you wouldn't know that

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Speaker 1: from looking at them. So if you have a look

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Speaker 1: at the article that I've read, I've actually put up

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Speaker 1: some comparative shots of one of the brands and I

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Speaker 1: just picked one at random, at the optimal, which is

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Speaker 1: one that's sold in Australia. I've put their Stage one

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Speaker 1: and their Stage three side by side, and I defy

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Speaker 1: you aside from the one and the three to tell

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Speaker 1: the difference. Right, they're identical, So the branding, the marketing,

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Speaker 1: it's all identical. And that's the bit that the A

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Speaker 1: Trip will see has a problem with. Yes, they're saying

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Speaker 1: this is not the spirit of what we agreed. You

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Speaker 1: are effectively advertising because you're using identical branding, and the

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Speaker 1: government has agreed with them and said yes, that's not

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Speaker 1: on we you know, the gentleman's agreements out the door.

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Speaker 1: We're going to legislate and you're not going to win.

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Speaker 2: When is this going to be enforced, like when it's.

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Speaker 1: Well yes, well you know, in the fullness of time, Craig.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you sounded like a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: Then yeah, they're gonna They're gonna do it. The Age

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Speaker 1: will See made its decision early this year. The government

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Speaker 1: has said it's within their legislative time frame. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what that means. It hasn't happened yet, let's just

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Speaker 1: say that, but there's intent there now. The reason I

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Speaker 1: even looked at this now, besides our excellent conversation earlier

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Speaker 1: about it, was there's a case. It's made some big

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Speaker 1: waves in the United States. Well, two cases in the

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Speaker 1: United States that made some big ways. One that fail

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Speaker 1: held dramatically, and it's interesting for why it failed, which

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Speaker 1: was a case of a person suing a big food

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Speaker 1: essentially suing the big food manufacturers for his diabetes. So

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Speaker 1: had diabetes, got diabetes from the age of sixteen, type

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Speaker 1: two diabetes, and suing the food manufacturers and saying you

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Speaker 1: cause this, so it's like cigarette smoking. Therefore you owe

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Speaker 1: me for the health tream.

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Speaker 2: Of particular manufacture, any particular manufacturers.

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Speaker 1: Or and that's the problem right there. Good old Judge

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Speaker 1: Harper on the bench has has nailed it immediately, nailed

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Speaker 1: it immediately. Why his lawyers didn't nail it immediately is

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Speaker 1: beyond me. The case. So the two in particular that

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Speaker 1: he sued were Craft and Heinz, I think, but there

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Speaker 1: were others joined as well, so the case was Martinez

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Speaker 1: versus Craft, heins. Of course I put the link in

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Speaker 1: the in the article for anyone who wants to read lawcue.

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Speaker 1: And it was being billed as really the first of

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Speaker 1: the sort of like big tobacco type cases. You know,

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Speaker 1: the punter you know, smoked all their lives, dying of

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Speaker 1: lung cancer. This is the same thing, but with type

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Speaker 1: two diabetes and FATI liver disease. So he's nineteen, he's

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Speaker 1: had diabetes since he was sixteen, he says, and he's

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Speaker 1: suing them and saying, you people cause this. The judge

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Speaker 1: dismissed it for the reasons you would have guessed first,

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Speaker 1: what exactly was it that caused this? You know, he's

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Speaker 1: saying he's got eleven defendants, Craft, Heinz, Coca, Cola, PepsiCo,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, one hundred of their brands, Oreo's, Ritz, Gerber Chocolates,

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Speaker 1: et cetera in the United States. So it didn't name,

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Speaker 1: it didn't nail a specific product or even a specific

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Speaker 1: ingredient in the product that was supposed to have caused

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Speaker 1: his diabetes. And also, who you know, there's loads of

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Speaker 1: potential defendants making loads of products. And this was the

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Speaker 1: big problem with a lot of the early cigarette cases

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Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies is people would say, I'm seventy,

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Speaker 1: I'm dying of lung cancer. The smokes caused it, and

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Speaker 1: courts would say, well, maybe you're right, but which smokes?

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Speaker 1: Did you smoke the same cigarettes your entire life? You know, No,

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I changed from that brand to that brand

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Speaker 1: of that brand. I smoke whatever I could get. Well,

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Speaker 1: there you go. Your case is toast. And that's what's

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Speaker 1: happened here as well, which is establishing causation what it's

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Speaker 1: called in law, is really difficult where you can't say

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Speaker 1: for certain was it that person's product that caused this disease. Now,

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Speaker 1: the science is really clear that if you consume vast

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Speaker 1: amounts of sugar over an extended period of time, you

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Speaker 1: will likely contract type two diabetes, fatterly liver disease, hard disease,

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Speaker 1: a whole raft of things. Okay, but sugar is in everything,

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Speaker 1: So who are you going to tool if you're going

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Speaker 1: to go after them. Much more likely to succeed are

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Speaker 1: cases where you've got a really controlled food environment. So

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Speaker 1: for example, if you're in the baby, yes, or we'll

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Speaker 1: get to the baby. But in the military, for example,

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Speaker 1: if you've been in the military since the age of eighteen,

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Speaker 1: you've been there thirty years, they've been feeding you everything

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Speaker 1: that you eat, then they are probably responsible for anything

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Speaker 1: that is caused as a result of whatever you eat.

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Speaker 1: At least there you've got a defendant. Now, there might

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Speaker 1: be lots of different manufacturers, but at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, it was the military that was telling you

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Speaker 1: what to eat and in serving it and putting it

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Speaker 1: in front of you. So potentially, or in an institution,

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Speaker 1: in a hospital, or in an asylum or something like that,

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Speaker 1: where your food supply is entirely controlled, the other place is,

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Speaker 1: as you correctly identify Judge Harper, if you're a baby,

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Speaker 1: we had a lot of life before your only source

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Speaker 1: of nutrition is the thing that's being supplied out of

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Speaker 1: a tin. Yes, so that's potentially an interesting cause of action.

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Speaker 1: And to test that, there's another case in the United

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Speaker 1: States that's just kicked off called Castro and Laboratories, where

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Speaker 1: Castro is suing the makers of a baby formula in

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Speaker 1: the United States.

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Speaker 2: What condition did the kid get? Like, what's the malaise?

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Speaker 2: What's the ah?

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Speaker 1: Now? See alleged lawyer es, well, they didn't go that

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Speaker 1: way at all. That's a trap for young players, right.

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Speaker 1: They saw what happened with Martinez and they said, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not after that at all. What we are after

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Speaker 1: is misrepresentation. You represented to us that this was infant

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Speaker 1: formula and that it was safe and healthy. But your

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Speaker 1: product is twenty three percent sugar.

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Speaker 2: Yes, surely that was identified on the packaging though, because

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Speaker 2: that's a requirement.

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Speaker 1: Sure. I don't know if you've ever looked at a

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Speaker 1: baby formula package, but it does identify lots of things

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Speaker 1: on it. In fact, there's security and obscurity. There's about

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Speaker 1: a thousand things identified between the vitamins and the minerals

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Speaker 1: and the breaking down of the certain types of facts

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Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, and so forth, I defy

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Speaker 1: any normal person to read all that fine print and

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Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that this isn't something that they

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Speaker 1: should feed to their child. And besides all of that,

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Speaker 1: people know in the back of their mind, even if

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Speaker 1: they're not studying the law, they have a suspicion the

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Speaker 1: baby food is probably heavily regulated. Yeah, and they think that, Well,

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Speaker 1: I keep on feeding my child this thing that looks

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Speaker 1: exactly the same as the thing that I know I've

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Speaker 1: been feeding them in stage one and two, and they

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Speaker 1: tell me I should buy Stage three and feed it

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Speaker 1: to them. But what I'm actually feeding them is a

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Speaker 1: chocolate milkshake. By the time I get to stage three,

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Speaker 1: they're saying, there's the problem. Yes, there's the problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that what I was going to say too,

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Speaker 2: is like broadly, you know, zooming out from the micro

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Speaker 2: of baby food and formula to the macro of just

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Speaker 2: food in general. Like the reason that the nutritional information

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Speaker 2: is on the back down the bottom in the right

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Speaker 2: hand corner, and it's a size two font is because

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Speaker 2: they don't want us to pay attention to it.

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Speaker 1: It's there because they're required to put it there. It

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be there if they weren't correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And so okay, so

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Speaker 2: what's happening with this case with the misreddentation.

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Speaker 1: That one's still about hasn't made it to court yet.

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Speaker 1: In the United States, much more likely to succeed because

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Speaker 1: there they're not relying on this question about did your

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Speaker 1: product cause this disease? They're going they're going sort of

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Speaker 1: like the I guess what was the buggy was the

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Speaker 1: what were those famous outlaws? It Bugsy Malone and the

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Speaker 1: bugs alone and anyway, well, one of those famous outlaws

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Speaker 1: probably was bugs Malone. I've forgotten now chief will have

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Speaker 1: it before we even get to the end of the sentence.

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Speaker 1: There were ones they didn't get him on shooting people

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Speaker 1: and killing people and being an outlaw and taxation and

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Speaker 1: that's the one al Capone.

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Speaker 2: They got him on tax Yeah, tax fraud.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So here is it's a little reminiscent of that.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe they go down on misrepresentation, not on

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Speaker 1: the thing that actually happened. In Australia, we don't even

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Speaker 1: have to rely on that because we've got a regulator

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Speaker 1: saying we're done, this is deceptive conduct. We want legislation

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Speaker 1: that stops this happening. We're still a step further though,

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Speaker 1: before we can start saying and your product has caused

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Speaker 1: this disease, and you owe me a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: but at least in terms of deceptive marketing, there may

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Speaker 1: be some damages there if this case succeed in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Where we need to get to though, is

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Speaker 1: where it got to with the tobacco legislation in the end,

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00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 1: which is it didn't. There were a couple of cases

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Speaker 1: that did succeed because the person could prove that this

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Speaker 1: was the only brand of cigarette they had to ever smoked,

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Speaker 1: so they could prove I have smoked your cigarettes and

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Speaker 1: nothing else my entire life, and they succeeded. Unfortunately, often

340
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: they died before they did succeed. So there are states succeeded.

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Speaker 1: But where the big money cases came in the tobacco

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Speaker 1: litigation in the United States was when the state attorney

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Speaker 1: generals took the cases on behalf of their health systems.

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Speaker 1: So they said, our health system has to pay for

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Speaker 1: the consequences of you selling a product which causes disease. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you owe us money for the cost of doing that.

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Speaker 1: Those are the cases that succeeded in the tobacco wars,

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Speaker 1: and they're likely to be the cases that succeed here too.

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Speaker 1: Is it Ultimately we are going to have governments saying

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Speaker 1: you are selling a product that causes disease and that

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Speaker 1: we have to pick up the tab for you owe

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Speaker 1: us money. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Like, I'm just thinking, I'm actually googling right now how

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00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 2: much sugar in Last time I looked at neutra grain,

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, it's not It's not a big stretch

356
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Speaker 2: to go to cereals, is it. Like last time I

357
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: looked at something like neutragrain, it was like thirty six

358
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Speaker 2: grams of sugar per hundred Like yeah, I mean, I

359
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: mean you've done You've done all the cereals and stuff

360
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Speaker 2: I know with your research. But does that just open

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Speaker 2: a door for people then to because you know, the

362
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: breakfast of champions, like all these Olympians who are selling

363
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 2: this stuff kind.

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00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,959
Speaker 1: Of well it is, I mean, And there's problematic advertising

365
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: right now with I think it's one of the cocoa

366
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: pops one with that comedian doing it, where advertising high

367
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: sugar cereal on the basis that it's full of energy

368
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Speaker 1: or full of protein, and what they mean is it's

369
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Speaker 1: full of sugar and we've put some protein in it

370
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Speaker 1: because otherwise we've got nothing to sell it. So we

371
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Speaker 1: can't say this is a high sugar cereal. So we'll

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Speaker 1: call it a high protein cereal or a high energy cereal.

373
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Speaker 1: But there's nothing good about breakfast real, nothing good about

374
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Speaker 1: breakfast cereal. You know, if you ask me, well, what

375
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Speaker 1: breakfast cereal should I eat, I'd say, well, don't eat

376
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Speaker 1: any breakfast cereal, but if you must, if you feel

377
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Speaker 1: it you can't get through the morning without a breakfast cereal,

378
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: then wheatbix is pretty much the only option.

379
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's got minimal sugar and it's like.

380
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's got no added sugar in it. So it's

381
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: about two grams per hundred so, you know, which is

382
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 1: basically the sugar content of wheat. So it's that's fine.

383
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: But everything else is just loaded with sugar. I mean,

384
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: even corn flakes, which you wouldn't most people wouldn't identify

385
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: as containing much sugar. Most people add sugar to it.

386
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: You know, even cornflakes is ten percent sugar, and that's

387
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: really really low as far as breakfast reals go. Most

388
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: of them are twenty twenty five thirty thirty five percent

389
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: sugar because no one would eat that cardboard without all

390
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: the sugar in it, honestly one percent.

391
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 2: What happens. So let's say with this one, with the

392
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 2: you know, the misrepresentation around the formula or the toddler's

393
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: food or whatever it is. What let's say they win

394
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: that case and they win a whole heap of dough.

395
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 2: Does that then mean people start coming out of the woodwork.

396
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: Does that mean.

397
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Speaker 2: That that that company has to do a complete one?

398
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 2: Are they're probably going to do one eighty already, But like,

399
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: what are some of the consequences of that litigation?

400
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: Well, I suspect if they succeed besides them getting money,

401
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, and it'll be a stupid amount of money

402
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: the way US litigation generally goes. Besides that, it will

403
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: point really really clearly to the fact that to the

404
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: place that the Australian government has already arrived, which is

405
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: you don't get to do this, You don't get to

406
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: work this loophole where you market a product that looks

407
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: identical to a product which is sugar free, loaded up

408
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: with sugar and then represented as healthy. So that's where

409
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: it'll end up. They'll get there by litigation, will get

410
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: there by legislation, but thankfully, hopefully relatively soon, we should

411
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: be in a place where they no longer get away

412
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 1: with this. It won't stop them keeping going though in

413
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: other areas, because they're already on to the fact. You

414
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,719
Speaker 1: know that we can do the same stuff with what

415
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: we feed old people right now, you know we can

416
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: call it. You know, every hospital it gets loads of

417
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: free samples of all these various milks that are meant

418
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: to be food substitutes, which are heavily loaded with sugar.

419
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: And you might say, well, why are they bothering? Why

420
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: put a ton of sugar in these things? Why not

421
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: just sell them with other sugar? Why can't follow one

422
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: formula or stage three formula whatever it's called a toddler milk.

423
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: Why can't I just be milk? Because then what are

424
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: you selling? These things are thirty bucks a ten. If

425
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: you're selling a tin of milk powder and the kids

426
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: thinking this tastes like milk powder, he's not going to

427
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: be pestering mum. Can I have another glass of that

428
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: dried milk? Mum? No, The reason the kids want it

429
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: is because it's full of sugar.

430
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder as you're talking about all of this,

431
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, like, in the space that I've inhabited

432
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: for long time, fitness, health, wellness space, is like, never

433
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: in my life has there been so many supplements, you know,

434
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 2: pills and powders and potions and various forms of creatine

435
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: and protein powders and a million other peptides and supplements.

436
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: I wonder most of them are a waste of money.

437
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, true, one hundred percent. But it seems almost it

438
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: seems almost unregulated.

439
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: It is largely unregulated. The test is often will this

440
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, if someone consumes a bucket of this stuff,

441
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: will it kill them on the spot? Probably not so okay.

442
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: I mean the whole supplement industry is largely unregulated, mostly

443
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: because they're perceived as being largely harmless. So if people

444
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: want to buy this stuff and eat this stuff, and

445
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's sort of in the same category, I guess,

446
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: as you know, scented candles, like if you think it

447
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: does something for you, then you know, knock yourself out.

448
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: But but we're not going to. There are no proven

449
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: health dangers or benefits to this stuff, so off you go,

450
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: and and you know, the advertising for these things is

451
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: always full of weasel words like may improve this, or

452
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: could improve that, or up to one hundred percent, which

453
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: could be anything from zero percent to one hundred percent.

454
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: You know, you pay close attention to that kind of advertising,

455
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: you can see that it's full of weasel words because

456
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: it's telling people stuff they want to hear. You know,

457
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: I have a problem with X, y Z insert melody.

458
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: Here.

459
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: Here is the thing that's you know, that may help

460
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: with that problem. Probably won't is the subtext. But you

461
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: know it probably won't hurt you either. And this is

462
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: we've talked about this a couple of times. Recently, they're

463
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: starting to be some really concerning evidence about some of

464
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: these things, particularly the bigger vitamins, where in overdose they

465
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: probably will do you harm. And you have to be

466
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: really careful about that because these things have been thrown

467
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: willy nilly into all sorts of things, sometimes without even

468
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: mentioning that they're there, like vitamin B six, which is

469
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: in massive amounts in magnesium, and people are probably not

470
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: even aware they're taking it because they're actually taking the

471
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: magnesium because they've got leg cramps. And so we have

472
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: to be really careful about this because up until now

473
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: the attitude has been well, probably doesn't hurt, and the

474
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: reality is, take enough of this stuff, it probably does hurt.

475
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: Just before we go. It kind of sounds like from

476
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 2: what you're saying that Australia is ahead of America in

477
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: a way, like with the baby formula stuff anyway, because

478
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: we're already dealing with it, making decisions about it and

479
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: saying it's not okay. But in this so it's more

480
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: regulation here and litigation in the States. Are we leading

481
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: the way or is that just in this particular this.

482
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: On this issue, we are. And it's a different regulator

483
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: to the one that regulates supplements, So this is the

484
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Australian Competition Commission who has an agreement with people about

485
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: how to market this stuff. So they're not looking at

486
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: the ins and outs of the stuff itself. They're just

487
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: going with what the World Health Organization said, which is

488
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: really should be using breast milk up to the age

489
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: of twelve that is heavily regulated by a different regulator,

490
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: the TGA. These guys are concerned only with the marketing

491
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: and they're saying, like the piece of litigation in the

492
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: United States, which is really about marketing, not about health.

493
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: They're saying this marketing is not on because it's deceptive,

494
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: and like I mentioned, with the component tax returns, maybe

495
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: that's where we get them. Maybe that's the backdoor root

496
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: here where we say, let's not get all tied up

497
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: in whether it was bad for you or not. Let's

498
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: just talk about the deceptive of marketing.

499
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: Well government. If you need a good lawyer, the lespo's available.

500
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: He's very fucking expensive. I don't think you could afford him,

501
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: but maybe just a small consult.

502
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: Hey, this is a first, by the way, Craigie, you've

503
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: got to this is a headline for you. This is

504
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: the first. This is the first time I've ever written

505
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: about anything to do with the law.

506
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: That is well, I don't know if that is true,

507
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: but yeah, this is the first time we've had a

508
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: chat where you've actually opened the legal door.

509
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, I normally avoid doing it. So just because

510
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, I prefer to write about things where I

511
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: can't get fired for my opinion. But how dare you.

512
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: Talk about something that you qualified in?

513
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: Say what you know?

514
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: Hey, mate, we appreciate you will say goodbye affair, but

515
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: as always, good to chat and thanks for your time.

516
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure as always