Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: A five minute drive from the cliff where Ben Robert
Speaker 1: Smith allegedly murdered an Afghan man named Ali Jan by
Speaker 1: kicking him off that cliff, there was a small mud
Speaker 1: brick room used for storing almonds. There was in this
Speaker 1: room a different group of Australian soldiers killed two Afghan
Speaker 1: men in a shocking and brutal way. But despite the
Speaker 1: intense publicity around the killing of Ali Jan, almost nothing
Speaker 1: has been heard about what Australians did in the army room,
Speaker 1: and nobody's been held accountable. Until now, no journalists have
Speaker 1: visited this isolated place where around three hundred families live.
Speaker 1: The village is about a six hour drive on bumpy
Speaker 1: gravel roads from Tarankaw, the provincial capital of Uresgar. Today,
Speaker 1: anthropologist and writer Michelle Jasmon de Massey on her journey
Speaker 1: there and what the families of the men told her
Speaker 1: about the alleged crimes Australian soldiers have not been held
Speaker 1: accountable for. It's Thursday, October Ken Michelle, thanks for speaking
Speaker 1: with me, Star. Can you tell me about Darwin and
Speaker 1: what the Australian Army's connection is to this place.
Speaker 2: So the Australian forces served in Aresgan from two thousand
Speaker 2: and five to two thousand and thirteen, and for dar
Speaker 2: One that became a particular significance back in twenty twelve
Speaker 2: when Australian soldiers were searching for an Afghan rogue soldier
Speaker 2: called Hickmatula.
Speaker 3: Hick Matula at.
Speaker 2: That time had killed three Australian soldiers and a hunt
Speaker 2: basically had begun to find hick Matula. So there was
Speaker 2: suspicion that heck Matula was in Darwan village and I
Speaker 2: was quite interested to go there. The best of my knowledge,
Speaker 2: no journalists had ever been to dar One. There's a
Speaker 2: bit of an eery feeling to da One. It feels
Speaker 2: like a lot has happened there, and it's also a
Speaker 2: place where I found when I did go there, locals
Speaker 2: really want to talk. People really wanted to speak. It
Speaker 2: was almost a little bit overwhelming. People were really wanting
Speaker 2: to share their experiences about what had happened during the
Speaker 2: war there.
Speaker 1: So who did you speak to with and what did
Speaker 1: they have to tell you?
Speaker 3: Yeah say it.
Speaker 2: Amid was one gentleman that I met there, an Afghan
Speaker 2: man around the age of about thirty five years old,
Speaker 2: and he was there the day that the Australian forces
Speaker 2: came to dar One when they were looking for Pickmatula,
Speaker 2: and he is actually an ear witness to one incident
Speaker 2: that happened there in dar One. It was an early
Speaker 2: autumn morning on September eleven, twenty twelve.
Speaker 3: The men had all been working in.
Speaker 2: The fields, they'd come back, they'd finished morning prayers and
Speaker 2: they were sitting around drinking tea and they were all
Speaker 2: together in one compound. Then the Australian the helicopters landed
Speaker 2: in the vicinity of the compounds and the Australian soldiers
Speaker 2: approached the compound and they told all of the men
Speaker 2: to come out and started interrogating them. At that time,
Speaker 2: Yaro Mama had come from Kushta, another village, to pay
Speaker 2: a debt, and Nasa Ghul was there visiting a relative.
Speaker 2: And when it got to those men, you know the
Speaker 2: fact that they weren't from Dawan, they were then separated
Speaker 2: from the group. Now, Sayad Ahmid says that everyone's hands
Speaker 2: were tired and that they were blind folded. And then
Speaker 2: what happened next was those two individuals Yarrow Mama and
Speaker 2: nas a Ghul were then taken to another room. So
Speaker 2: I had Hamid and heard the gate close, and then
Speaker 2: they heard some gunshots and that was the last time
Speaker 2: that they saw those two men alive. Sayad Ahmad says
Speaker 2: that the two men were unarmed, that at the time,
Speaker 2: they were fully cooperative with the Australian forces. So none
Speaker 2: of these individuals presented a threat from the perspective of
Speaker 2: Sayd Hahmid. You know, they were all people under control,
Speaker 2: and we know under the Geneva Conventions, you know, it's
Speaker 2: a war crime to kill enemies that are actually under
Speaker 2: control at that time, So.
Speaker 1: These two men, Yera Mama and azar Gal were separated
Speaker 1: from the rest of the men who heard the sound
Speaker 1: of gunshots. What did the villagers tell you about what
Speaker 1: happened next?
Speaker 2: Well, after that, they obviously never saw those men alive,
Speaker 2: and everyone waited for the Australian forces to leave.
Speaker 3: They waited for the helicopters to go.
Speaker 2: And after that, there was another individual who was there,
Speaker 2: a lady called Shallow. She's sixty year old woman. She's
Speaker 2: the mother of Sayad Hahmid, and she came out of
Speaker 2: the room. She'd been separated, and it was pretty common
Speaker 2: practice at that time for Australian soldiers to separate women
Speaker 2: and children in one group. And she came out of
Speaker 2: the room where she'd been separated from them, and she
Speaker 2: went into the room where the two men were. Locals
Speaker 2: called it the almond room because it was a room
Speaker 2: that was used to store armors. And she found the
Speaker 2: two men there.
Speaker 4: So they were like full of blood. The blood was
Speaker 4: streaming out of their body like a stream of water.
Speaker 2: At the time when she found the bodies, she said,
Speaker 2: they were so disfigured. There was just blood gushing everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yarrow Mama's cheek was missing, his eye was missing. He'd
Speaker 2: been shot in the back of the head. And then
Speaker 2: she ran to go find help. And basically it was
Speaker 2: just a really distressing scene where locals stood around. The
Speaker 2: women were there. They were hysterical, they were screaming, were crying.
Speaker 2: And then the men were then buried later that day
Speaker 2: in a small cemetery a couple of minutes walk from
Speaker 2: the armond room, and the families took you know, there
Speaker 2: was blood all over the almonds. They sprinkled the almonds
Speaker 2: all over the graves of the men and when I
Speaker 2: was in Darwin, I visited those graves side Hamid took
Speaker 2: me to show me where the three men Ali Jahan,
Speaker 2: naz a Ghul and Yarrow Mama are buried. Is this
Speaker 2: the waistcoat he was wearing at the time And on
Speaker 2: Yarrow Mamma's grave site there is still his waistcoat that
Speaker 2: he was wearing as a bloodied waistcoat that.
Speaker 4: Was like his best coat he was doing the time
Speaker 4: he was a kid.
Speaker 1: The villagers say the men were unarmed after the break
Speaker 1: the Australian soldiers side of the story. Michelle, You've been
Speaker 1: spending time in Dawhen, where locals have been telling you
Speaker 1: about their horrific experiences with EIGHTYF soldiers, including the killings
Speaker 1: of two men who have just finished their morning prayers.
Speaker 1: They describe being all together and being unarmed. What did
Speaker 1: the soldiers say happen there?
Speaker 2: Their a version of events is quite different to what
Speaker 2: Sayed Ahmid told me. They said that there were two
Speaker 2: Taliban insurgents that were armed and that they were engaged,
Speaker 2: which means they were killed. And they said that these
Speaker 2: two men were in one compound and then another group
Speaker 2: of men were in another compound. So It's very different
Speaker 2: event right there. You know, we said Amita saying that
Speaker 2: the men were all together, while the soldiers are saying
Speaker 2: that you know that the men were separate. And again
Speaker 2: they were saying that they were armed. Yet Afghan locals
Speaker 2: said that no one was armed.
Speaker 1: Right, so there's two stories. The local villagers say that
Speaker 1: the men weren't armed, the soldiers say that they were.
Speaker 1: How should we think about that?
Speaker 2: When the post operational summaries came out from that report
Speaker 2: of the report basically had said that yes, the men
Speaker 2: were armed. There was an assault rifle on one and
Speaker 2: there was a chest rig on another, and operation reports
Speaker 2: showed photographs of weapons besides these individuals. It raises some
Speaker 2: questions because of what happened with the Brereton Report. The
Speaker 2: Breton Report revealed some very dark, sinister behaviors and cultures
Speaker 2: that were taking place by the Australian forces in Afghanistan
Speaker 2: during those years that it was serving in or as
Speaker 2: Ghan and one of the behaviors that was singled out
Speaker 2: was this culture of throwdowns where people were basically having
Speaker 2: weapons put beside their bodies and photographs were being taken
Speaker 2: for operational reports. But it was pretty much looking to
Speaker 2: legitimize the killing of possibly innocent Afghans. And in twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: this same year that these men were killed, the Breton
Speaker 2: Report found credible evidence of at least twelve cases of.
Speaker 3: Throwdowns taking place.
Speaker 2: Now we don't know if this case is part of
Speaker 2: Breton because Breton was very heavily redacted, so we will
Speaker 2: never know that.
Speaker 1: Has Australian governmen made aware of what happened there and
Speaker 1: what are they doing about it?
Speaker 2: The Australian government has been made aware on several occasions
Speaker 2: about what has happened there in Arazgan in Dawan. Firstly,
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission
Speaker 2: submitted a report to the Office of the Special Investigator.
Speaker 2: At that time they were speaking to the victims' families
Speaker 2: about different incidents that had happened. Out of their submission
Speaker 2: did include this case of Nazaghul and Yarrow Mama. Earlier
Speaker 2: this year, in June, a group of United Nations experts
Speaker 2: also submitted a damning report to the Australian government saying
Speaker 2: that there are potential breaches of international law involving what
Speaker 2: has happened in Areasgan and that these families should be compensated.
Speaker 2: And then in September this year, the Australian Defense Minister
Speaker 2: told the Parliament that some commanders would be stripped of
Speaker 2: their awards and he was referring to the Breton Report
Speaker 2: that there was credible evidence of thirty nine cases of
Speaker 2: unlawful killings of Afghans involving twenty five Australian defense personnel.
Speaker 5: These were findings of the most serious, disturbing and consequential nature.
Speaker 5: They warranted the most serious, considered and thorough response.
Speaker 3: And the Minister also said that this will always be a.
Speaker 2: Matter of national shame what happened in Afghanistan, and it's
Speaker 2: arguably the most serious allegations of Australian war crimes in
Speaker 2: our history.
Speaker 5: As the then CDF General Angus Campbell said, and I quote,
Speaker 5: such alleged behavior profoundly disrespected the trust placed in US
Speaker 5: by the Afghan people who had asked us to their
Speaker 5: country to help them. It would have devastated the lives
Speaker 5: of Afghan families and communities, causing immeasurable pain and suffering.
Speaker 1: How come this particular story from that particular day a
Speaker 1: day of infamy for our defense forces. How come that
Speaker 1: hasn't been brought to the public's I guess gays before.
Speaker 3: Now that's a really good question.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, the focus had always been on
Speaker 2: Ali Jahn's case and the publicity surrounding the trial of
Speaker 2: Benjamin Robert Smith. But it appears that there's many other
Speaker 2: cases of potential breaches of international law by the Australian forces,
Speaker 2: and there is an ongoing investigation by the Office of
Speaker 2: the Special Investigator taking place. However, they're not in a position,
Speaker 2: or they say they're not in a position to provide
Speaker 2: any information to the public about these investigations. So we
Speaker 2: don't really know what's happening, and we don't know what
Speaker 2: cases are being investigated.
Speaker 3: And I think probably the most concerning.
Speaker 2: Aspect of this is that the OSI has not allowed
Speaker 2: Afghuns to actually provide testimonies despite the fact that they
Speaker 2: will witnesses. So right now the situation is very one sided.
Speaker 2: You know, we're only hearing the military perspective. Yet we
Speaker 2: have you know, many Afgun witnesses that want to testify
Speaker 2: and give their version of events but have basically been
Speaker 2: barred from being able to do this.
Speaker 1: Has the reason been given as to why they are
Speaker 1: barred from providing evidence.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: So the reason behind that is that the Australian government
Speaker 2: doesn't recognize the current government of Afghanistan, which is the Taliban,
Speaker 2: so they don't have a relationship with with this government.
Speaker 2: There's concerns about the safety of investigators should they go
Speaker 2: to Afghanistan to do this. But you know, there's still
Speaker 2: a lot of question marks for me around this. You know,
Speaker 2: earlier this year, I traveled to Kandahar. I spoke with
Speaker 2: the Taliban spokesman, mister Zabiula Majayid, and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: will you let these families testify, and most important, will
Speaker 2: you let women testify? Given the situation for women at
Speaker 2: the moment in Afghanistan is really terrible. And he said, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a judicial process. If they want to testify,
Speaker 2: they can testify. We don't have an issue with that.
Speaker 2: You know, if they want to do it online, they can.
Speaker 2: And I guess there's a you know, there's probably the
Speaker 2: view would the Taliban contaminate the evidence? You know, I
Speaker 2: guess that's probably a concern. But Majai it was even
Speaker 2: of the view that people could travel to a third country,
Speaker 2: they could go to somewhere like guitar or Dubai and
Speaker 2: you know, could meet at the Australian embassy and people
Speaker 2: could give their evidence and then they could return. So
Speaker 2: there's actually, you know, a willingness on that side to
Speaker 2: allow this to happen.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned the bread and Report and that's the
Speaker 1: way our government is dealing with the wrongs committed by
Speaker 1: Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Can you tell me how far
Speaker 1: along we are in terms of implementing its recommendations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So last month the Defense Minister said that all
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty three recommendations from the Afghanistan Inquiry
Speaker 2: Plan have been adopted except four were still ongoing, which
Speaker 2: is the work being conducted by the Office of the
Speaker 2: Special Investigator. One of the other key recommendations of Brereton
Speaker 2: was to pay compensation to individuals or the victims families,
Speaker 2: and Australian Defense Force had promised this would be done
Speaker 2: by the end of twenty twenty one, and no one
Speaker 2: has been paid any money. No one's ever come to
Speaker 2: speak to those individuals about that. The Australian Defense Minister
Speaker 2: has now said that the Afghanistan Inquiry is closed.
Speaker 3: You know, it's officially over.
Speaker 2: But where does that leave the victims in places like
Speaker 2: dar Ian, Well, for them, it's not closed. No one
Speaker 2: has been prosecuted, no one has been given an opportunity
Speaker 2: to testify.
Speaker 3: And it's left a really dirty scar.
Speaker 2: In places like Aurascar, there is a general distrust of
Speaker 2: Australians there.
Speaker 3: So you know, we've got right now a situation where
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: It's We've got a very very sad collective memory of
Speaker 2: Australians soldiers during their time in Afghanistan and people that
Speaker 2: have just been left in the dark about what's happening.
Speaker 2: No one's ever been given any updates, no one has
Speaker 2: been able to access any sort of justice mechanisms. When
Speaker 2: I spoke with Shallow, who was the lady who had
Speaker 2: found Yarrow Mama and Nasa Ghoul in the armored room
Speaker 2: that day, and I asked her about, you know, what
Speaker 2: should happen next? What does she think about compensation? I
Speaker 2: mean her reply to that was, you know, how could
Speaker 2: we be compensated for something of you know, this magnitude.
Speaker 4: We were not normal civilians. We were working with live
Speaker 4: stalks and working in the fields for Anothence, people in
Speaker 4: my like are my sons, my families, so I'll never
Speaker 4: forget them and I really want to bring the justice.
Speaker 3: She said.
Speaker 2: You know, let that murderer come here face to face.
Speaker 2: I will tell him that we're not lying and I
Speaker 2: will ask him like, why did you do this to
Speaker 2: our family members?
Speaker 3: We committed no sin. You know there was no Taliban
Speaker 3: around that day.
Speaker 1: Michelle, thank you so much for your.
Speaker 3: Time, Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: You can read Michelle the message withing from Darwin in
Speaker 1: this weekend's edition of the Saturday Paper. Also in the
Speaker 1: news today, former military lawyer David McBride has been granted
Speaker 1: leave to appeal his convictions for sharing secret military documents
Speaker 1: with journalists. McBride is being in jail since May, when
Speaker 1: he was given a six year sentence after pleading guilty
Speaker 1: to three charges including theft and Former Labor senator Fatima
Speaker 1: Payman says she is forming a new political party named
Speaker 1: Australia's Voice. Payment quit the Labour Party in July to
Speaker 1: it as an independent of disagreement with the party's position
Speaker 1: on Gaza. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am, and
Speaker 1: before I go, I wanted to tell you about something
Speaker 1: I've been working on Monday marks twelve months since the
Speaker 1: filed Voice referendum, and to commemorate it, I'm bringing you
Speaker 1: a special three part series called This Is Alice Springs.
Speaker 1: After all the reporting we've heard about youth crime, curfews
Speaker 1: and chaos, I wanted to take a deeper look at
Speaker 1: what's gone on in the town that was used a
Speaker 1: political football during the Voice debate. I went to Weller
Speaker 1: Springs and I sat down with alders, with children, and
Speaker 1: with police and a few others in between, to ask
Speaker 1: what it will take to mend the harm that has
Speaker 1: been done there and what the future looks like for
Speaker 1: this town at the heart of the nation. Psyche that
Speaker 1: starts Monday on seven am. Please tune in and tell
Speaker 1: all on Sundry, your neighbors, your dad's, your friends all
Speaker 1: about it. In the meantime, I'll be back tomorrow. Catch
Speaker 1: you then,