WEBVTT - The almond room killings

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>A five minute drive from the cliff where Ben Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Smith allegedly murdered an Afghan man named Ali Jan by

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<v Speaker 1>kicking him off that cliff, there was a small mud

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<v Speaker 1>brick room used for storing almonds. There was in this

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<v Speaker 1>room a different group of Australian soldiers killed two Afghan

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<v Speaker 1>men in a shocking and brutal way. But despite the

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<v Speaker 1>intense publicity around the killing of Ali Jan, almost nothing

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<v Speaker 1>has been heard about what Australians did in the army room,

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<v Speaker 1>and nobody's been held accountable. Until now, no journalists have

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<v Speaker 1>visited this isolated place where around three hundred families live.

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<v Speaker 1>The village is about a six hour drive on bumpy

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<v Speaker 1>gravel roads from Tarankaw, the provincial capital of Uresgar. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>anthropologist and writer Michelle Jasmon de Massey on her journey

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<v Speaker 1>there and what the families of the men told her

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<v Speaker 1>about the alleged crimes Australian soldiers have not been held

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<v Speaker 1>accountable for. It's Thursday, October Ken Michelle, thanks for speaking

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<v Speaker 1>with me, Star. Can you tell me about Darwin and

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<v Speaker 1>what the Australian Army's connection is to this place.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Australian forces served in Aresgan from two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and five to two thousand and thirteen, and for dar

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<v Speaker 2>One that became a particular significance back in twenty twelve

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<v Speaker 2>when Australian soldiers were searching for an Afghan rogue soldier

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<v Speaker 2>called Hickmatula.

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<v Speaker 3>Hick Matula at.

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<v Speaker 2>That time had killed three Australian soldiers and a hunt

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<v Speaker 2>basically had begun to find hick Matula. So there was

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<v Speaker 2>suspicion that heck Matula was in Darwan village and I

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<v Speaker 2>was quite interested to go there. The best of my knowledge,

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<v Speaker 2>no journalists had ever been to dar One. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of an eery feeling to da One. It feels

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot has happened there, and it's also a

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<v Speaker 2>place where I found when I did go there, locals

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<v Speaker 2>really want to talk. People really wanted to speak. It

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<v Speaker 2>was almost a little bit overwhelming. People were really wanting

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<v Speaker 2>to share their experiences about what had happened during the

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<v Speaker 2>war there.

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<v Speaker 1>So who did you speak to with and what did

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<v Speaker 1>they have to tell you?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah say it.

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<v Speaker 2>Amid was one gentleman that I met there, an Afghan

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<v Speaker 2>man around the age of about thirty five years old,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was there the day that the Australian forces

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<v Speaker 2>came to dar One when they were looking for Pickmatula,

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<v Speaker 2>and he is actually an ear witness to one incident

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<v Speaker 2>that happened there in dar One. It was an early

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<v Speaker 2>autumn morning on September eleven, twenty twelve.

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<v Speaker 3>The men had all been working in.

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<v Speaker 2>The fields, they'd come back, they'd finished morning prayers and

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<v Speaker 2>they were sitting around drinking tea and they were all

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<v Speaker 2>together in one compound. Then the Australian the helicopters landed

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<v Speaker 2>in the vicinity of the compounds and the Australian soldiers

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<v Speaker 2>approached the compound and they told all of the men

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<v Speaker 2>to come out and started interrogating them. At that time,

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<v Speaker 2>Yaro Mama had come from Kushta, another village, to pay

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<v Speaker 2>a debt, and Nasa Ghul was there visiting a relative.

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<v Speaker 2>And when it got to those men, you know the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that they weren't from Dawan, they were then separated

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<v Speaker 2>from the group. Now, Sayad Ahmid says that everyone's hands

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<v Speaker 2>were tired and that they were blind folded. And then

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<v Speaker 2>what happened next was those two individuals Yarrow Mama and

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<v Speaker 2>nas a Ghul were then taken to another room. So

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<v Speaker 2>I had Hamid and heard the gate close, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they heard some gunshots and that was the last time

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<v Speaker 2>that they saw those two men alive. Sayad Ahmad says

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<v Speaker 2>that the two men were unarmed, that at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>they were fully cooperative with the Australian forces. So none

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<v Speaker 2>of these individuals presented a threat from the perspective of

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<v Speaker 2>Sayd Hahmid. You know, they were all people under control,

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<v Speaker 2>and we know under the Geneva Conventions, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a war crime to kill enemies that are actually under

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<v Speaker 2>control at that time, So.

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<v Speaker 1>These two men, Yera Mama and azar Gal were separated

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<v Speaker 1>from the rest of the men who heard the sound

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<v Speaker 1>of gunshots. What did the villagers tell you about what

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<v Speaker 1>happened next?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, after that, they obviously never saw those men alive,

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<v Speaker 2>and everyone waited for the Australian forces to leave.

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<v Speaker 3>They waited for the helicopters to go.

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<v Speaker 2>And after that, there was another individual who was there,

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<v Speaker 2>a lady called Shallow. She's sixty year old woman. She's

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<v Speaker 2>the mother of Sayad Hahmid, and she came out of

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<v Speaker 2>the room. She'd been separated, and it was pretty common

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<v Speaker 2>practice at that time for Australian soldiers to separate women

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<v Speaker 2>and children in one group. And she came out of

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<v Speaker 2>the room where she'd been separated from them, and she

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<v Speaker 2>went into the room where the two men were. Locals

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<v Speaker 2>called it the almond room because it was a room

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<v Speaker 2>that was used to store armors. And she found the

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<v Speaker 2>two men there.

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<v Speaker 4>So they were like full of blood. The blood was

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<v Speaker 4>streaming out of their body like a stream of water.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time when she found the bodies, she said,

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<v Speaker 2>they were so disfigured. There was just blood gushing everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Yarrow Mama's cheek was missing, his eye was missing. He'd

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<v Speaker 2>been shot in the back of the head. And then

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<v Speaker 2>she ran to go find help. And basically it was

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<v Speaker 2>just a really distressing scene where locals stood around. The

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<v Speaker 2>women were there. They were hysterical, they were screaming, were crying.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the men were then buried later that day

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<v Speaker 2>in a small cemetery a couple of minutes walk from

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<v Speaker 2>the armond room, and the families took you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>was blood all over the almonds. They sprinkled the almonds

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<v Speaker 2>all over the graves of the men and when I

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<v Speaker 2>was in Darwin, I visited those graves side Hamid took

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<v Speaker 2>me to show me where the three men Ali Jahan,

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<v Speaker 2>naz a Ghul and Yarrow Mama are buried. Is this

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<v Speaker 2>the waistcoat he was wearing at the time And on

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<v Speaker 2>Yarrow Mamma's grave site there is still his waistcoat that

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<v Speaker 2>he was wearing as a bloodied waistcoat that.

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<v Speaker 4>Was like his best coat he was doing the time

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<v Speaker 4>he was a kid.

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<v Speaker 1>The villagers say the men were unarmed after the break

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian soldiers side of the story. Michelle, You've been

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<v Speaker 1>spending time in Dawhen, where locals have been telling you

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<v Speaker 1>about their horrific experiences with EIGHTYF soldiers, including the killings

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<v Speaker 1>of two men who have just finished their morning prayers.

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<v Speaker 1>They describe being all together and being unarmed. What did

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<v Speaker 1>the soldiers say happen there?

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<v Speaker 2>Their a version of events is quite different to what

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<v Speaker 2>Sayed Ahmid told me. They said that there were two

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<v Speaker 2>Taliban insurgents that were armed and that they were engaged,

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<v Speaker 2>which means they were killed. And they said that these

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<v Speaker 2>two men were in one compound and then another group

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<v Speaker 2>of men were in another compound. So It's very different

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<v Speaker 2>event right there. You know, we said Amita saying that

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<v Speaker 2>the men were all together, while the soldiers are saying

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<v Speaker 2>that you know that the men were separate. And again

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<v Speaker 2>they were saying that they were armed. Yet Afghan locals

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<v Speaker 2>said that no one was armed.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, so there's two stories. The local villagers say that

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<v Speaker 1>the men weren't armed, the soldiers say that they were.

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<v Speaker 1>How should we think about that?

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<v Speaker 2>When the post operational summaries came out from that report

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<v Speaker 2>of the report basically had said that yes, the men

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<v Speaker 2>were armed. There was an assault rifle on one and

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<v Speaker 2>there was a chest rig on another, and operation reports

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<v Speaker 2>showed photographs of weapons besides these individuals. It raises some

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<v Speaker 2>questions because of what happened with the Brereton Report. The

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<v Speaker 2>Breton Report revealed some very dark, sinister behaviors and cultures

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<v Speaker 2>that were taking place by the Australian forces in Afghanistan

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<v Speaker 2>during those years that it was serving in or as

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<v Speaker 2>Ghan and one of the behaviors that was singled out

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<v Speaker 2>was this culture of throwdowns where people were basically having

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<v Speaker 2>weapons put beside their bodies and photographs were being taken

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<v Speaker 2>for operational reports. But it was pretty much looking to

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<v Speaker 2>legitimize the killing of possibly innocent Afghans. And in twenty twelve,

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<v Speaker 2>this same year that these men were killed, the Breton

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<v Speaker 2>Report found credible evidence of at least twelve cases of.

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<v Speaker 3>Throwdowns taking place.

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<v Speaker 2>Now we don't know if this case is part of

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<v Speaker 2>Breton because Breton was very heavily redacted, so we will

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<v Speaker 2>never know that.

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<v Speaker 1>Has Australian governmen made aware of what happened there and

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<v Speaker 1>what are they doing about it?

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<v Speaker 2>The Australian government has been made aware on several occasions

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<v Speaker 2>about what has happened there in Arazgan in Dawan. Firstly,

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty twenty one, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission

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<v Speaker 2>submitted a report to the Office of the Special Investigator.

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<v Speaker 2>At that time they were speaking to the victims' families

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<v Speaker 2>about different incidents that had happened. Out of their submission

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<v Speaker 2>did include this case of Nazaghul and Yarrow Mama. Earlier

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<v Speaker 2>this year, in June, a group of United Nations experts

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<v Speaker 2>also submitted a damning report to the Australian government saying

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<v Speaker 2>that there are potential breaches of international law involving what

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<v Speaker 2>has happened in Areasgan and that these families should be compensated.

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<v Speaker 2>And then in September this year, the Australian Defense Minister

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<v Speaker 2>told the Parliament that some commanders would be stripped of

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<v Speaker 2>their awards and he was referring to the Breton Report

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<v Speaker 2>that there was credible evidence of thirty nine cases of

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<v Speaker 2>unlawful killings of Afghans involving twenty five Australian defense personnel.

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<v Speaker 5>These were findings of the most serious, disturbing and consequential nature.

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<v Speaker 5>They warranted the most serious, considered and thorough response.

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<v Speaker 3>And the Minister also said that this will always be a.

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<v Speaker 2>Matter of national shame what happened in Afghanistan, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>arguably the most serious allegations of Australian war crimes in

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<v Speaker 2>our history.

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<v Speaker 5>As the then CDF General Angus Campbell said, and I quote,

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<v Speaker 5>such alleged behavior profoundly disrespected the trust placed in US

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<v Speaker 5>by the Afghan people who had asked us to their

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<v Speaker 5>country to help them. It would have devastated the lives

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<v Speaker 5>of Afghan families and communities, causing immeasurable pain and suffering.

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<v Speaker 1>How come this particular story from that particular day a

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<v Speaker 1>day of infamy for our defense forces. How come that

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't been brought to the public's I guess gays before.

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<v Speaker 3>Now that's a really good question.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, the focus had always been on

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<v Speaker 2>Ali Jahn's case and the publicity surrounding the trial of

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<v Speaker 2>Benjamin Robert Smith. But it appears that there's many other

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<v Speaker 2>cases of potential breaches of international law by the Australian forces,

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<v Speaker 2>and there is an ongoing investigation by the Office of

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<v Speaker 2>the Special Investigator taking place. However, they're not in a position,

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<v Speaker 2>or they say they're not in a position to provide

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<v Speaker 2>any information to the public about these investigations. So we

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<v Speaker 2>don't really know what's happening, and we don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>cases are being investigated.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think probably the most concerning.

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<v Speaker 2>Aspect of this is that the OSI has not allowed

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<v Speaker 2>Afghuns to actually provide testimonies despite the fact that they

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<v Speaker 2>will witnesses. So right now the situation is very one sided.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we're only hearing the military perspective. Yet we

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<v Speaker 2>have you know, many Afgun witnesses that want to testify

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<v Speaker 2>and give their version of events but have basically been

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<v Speaker 2>barred from being able to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>Has the reason been given as to why they are

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<v Speaker 1>barred from providing evidence.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>So the reason behind that is that the Australian government

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't recognize the current government of Afghanistan, which is the Taliban,

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<v Speaker 2>so they don't have a relationship with with this government.

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<v Speaker 2>There's concerns about the safety of investigators should they go

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<v Speaker 2>to Afghanistan to do this. But you know, there's still

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of question marks for me around this. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>earlier this year, I traveled to Kandahar. I spoke with

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<v Speaker 2>the Taliban spokesman, mister Zabiula Majayid, and I said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>will you let these families testify, and most important, will

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<v Speaker 2>you let women testify? Given the situation for women at

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<v Speaker 2>the moment in Afghanistan is really terrible. And he said, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a judicial process. If they want to testify,

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<v Speaker 2>they can testify. We don't have an issue with that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if they want to do it online, they can.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess there's a you know, there's probably the

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<v Speaker 2>view would the Taliban contaminate the evidence? You know, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess that's probably a concern. But Majai it was even

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<v Speaker 2>of the view that people could travel to a third country,

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<v Speaker 2>they could go to somewhere like guitar or Dubai and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, could meet at the Australian embassy and people

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<v Speaker 2>could give their evidence and then they could return. So

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<v Speaker 2>there's actually, you know, a willingness on that side to

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<v Speaker 2>allow this to happen.

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<v Speaker 1>So you mentioned the bread and Report and that's the

0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 1>way our government is dealing with the wrongs committed by

0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Can you tell me how far

0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 1>along we are in terms of implementing its recommendations.

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So last month the Defense Minister said that all

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:37.239
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and forty three recommendations from the Afghanistan Inquiry

0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:42.120
<v Speaker 2>Plan have been adopted except four were still ongoing, which

0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 2>is the work being conducted by the Office of the

0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Special Investigator. One of the other key recommendations of Brereton

0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.400
<v Speaker 2>was to pay compensation to individuals or the victims families,

0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 2>and Australian Defense Force had promised this would be done

0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 2>by the end of twenty twenty one, and no one

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 2>has been paid any money. No one's ever come to

0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:09.960
<v Speaker 2>speak to those individuals about that. The Australian Defense Minister

0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>has now said that the Afghanistan Inquiry is closed.

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's officially over.

0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.320
<v Speaker 2>But where does that leave the victims in places like

0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.080
<v Speaker 2>dar Ian, Well, for them, it's not closed. No one

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 2>has been prosecuted, no one has been given an opportunity

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 2>to testify.

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 3>And it's left a really dirty scar.

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.440
<v Speaker 2>In places like Aurascar, there is a general distrust of

0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Australians there.

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.680
<v Speaker 3>So you know, we've got right now a situation where

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 3>you know.

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>It's We've got a very very sad collective memory of

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>Australians soldiers during their time in Afghanistan and people that

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 2>have just been left in the dark about what's happening.

0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:57.120
<v Speaker 2>No one's ever been given any updates, no one has

0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 2>been able to access any sort of justice mechanisms. When

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 2>I spoke with Shallow, who was the lady who had

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.720
<v Speaker 2>found Yarrow Mama and Nasa Ghoul in the armored room

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that day, and I asked her about, you know, what

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.280
<v Speaker 2>should happen next? What does she think about compensation? I

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.520
<v Speaker 2>mean her reply to that was, you know, how could

0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>we be compensated for something of you know, this magnitude.

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.120
<v Speaker 4>We were not normal civilians. We were working with live

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 4>stalks and working in the fields for Anothence, people in

0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:36.480
<v Speaker 4>my like are my sons, my families, so I'll never

0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.480
<v Speaker 4>forget them and I really want to bring the justice.

0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 3>She said.

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, let that murderer come here face to face.

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 2>I will tell him that we're not lying and I

0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 2>will ask him like, why did you do this to

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:48.320
<v Speaker 2>our family members?

0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 3>We committed no sin. You know there was no Taliban

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 3>around that day.

0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Michelle, thank you so much for your.

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.400
<v Speaker 3>Time, Thank you, thank you for having me.

0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 1>You can read Michelle the message withing from Darwin in

0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:16.000
<v Speaker 1>this weekend's edition of the Saturday Paper. Also in the

0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.959
<v Speaker 1>news today, former military lawyer David McBride has been granted

0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 1>leave to appeal his convictions for sharing secret military documents

0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 1>with journalists. McBride is being in jail since May, when

0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.479
<v Speaker 1>he was given a six year sentence after pleading guilty

0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to three charges including theft and Former Labor senator Fatima

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Payman says she is forming a new political party named

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Australia's Voice. Payment quit the Labour Party in July to

0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 1>it as an independent of disagreement with the party's position

0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.919
<v Speaker 1>on Gaza. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am, and

0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.359
<v Speaker 1>before I go, I wanted to tell you about something

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 1>I've been working on Monday marks twelve months since the

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.199
<v Speaker 1>filed Voice referendum, and to commemorate it, I'm bringing you

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.119
<v Speaker 1>a special three part series called This Is Alice Springs.

0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.720
<v Speaker 1>After all the reporting we've heard about youth crime, curfews

0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.199
<v Speaker 1>and chaos, I wanted to take a deeper look at

0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.320
<v Speaker 1>what's gone on in the town that was used a

0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.320
<v Speaker 1>political football during the Voice debate. I went to Weller

0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.159
<v Speaker 1>Springs and I sat down with alders, with children, and

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.160
<v Speaker 1>with police and a few others in between, to ask

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.040
<v Speaker 1>what it will take to mend the harm that has

0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.240
<v Speaker 1>been done there and what the future looks like for

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 1>this town at the heart of the nation. Psyche that

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.920
<v Speaker 1>starts Monday on seven am. Please tune in and tell

0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.120
<v Speaker 1>all on Sundry, your neighbors, your dad's, your friends all

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 1>about it. In the meantime, I'll be back tomorrow. Catch

0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 1>you then,