WEBVTT - The Government vs Porn

0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Before we start today. This episode discusses violent pornography from

0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.320
<v Speaker 1>the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:30.400
<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, July two. Labour's rogue senator Fatima Payman says

0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.200
<v Speaker 1>she feels like an exile after being dumped from caucus.

0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.600
<v Speaker 1>The Prime Minister says he punished Payment for ruining the

0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.680
<v Speaker 1>government's big promotion of its July one tax cuts by

0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.239
<v Speaker 1>going on TV at the weekend to explain why she

0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:51.120
<v Speaker 1>voted with the Greens in support of Palestine. House prices

0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.680
<v Speaker 1>will rise seven percent this year, according to Australia's biggest bank.

0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.160
<v Speaker 1>It's all because demand is outstripping supply and prices could

0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.720
<v Speaker 1>go up another five percent in twenty twenty five. That's

0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.920
<v Speaker 1>live at the Australian dot com dot au right now.

0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Australian kids are being exposed to pornography on popular social

0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:17.520
<v Speaker 1>media science like Facebook, Instagram and TikTok before they term thirteen,

0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.840
<v Speaker 1>and Australia's e Safety Commissioner is putting the heat on

0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.440
<v Speaker 1>tech giants to come up with measures to protect children.

0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.640
<v Speaker 1>If they fail, Julie Imman Grant says she'll impose mandatory

0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:34.120
<v Speaker 1>codes of conduct today, Can Australia really force tech giants

0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:46.080
<v Speaker 1>to do anything? Ah scrolling?

0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I always pack way too damn much, but you never

0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:52.000
<v Speaker 2>know what you're gonna need.

0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Travel pets.

0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Are you supposed to be in?

0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.560
<v Speaker 1>The poor duke? Your mommy say?

0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:00.040
<v Speaker 3>You can.

0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Strangely mesmerizing makeup tutorials, get ready with me for dinner

0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:13.400
<v Speaker 1>with the girls. If you keep swiping for long enough,

0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.120
<v Speaker 1>you might wind up somewhere depressing, like the so called

0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.840
<v Speaker 1>mani sphere, where creepy dudes like Andrew Tate spew hate

0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:22.760
<v Speaker 1>about women.

0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.120
<v Speaker 3>So they call me a misogynists. I'm anti woman, I'm problem.

0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.320
<v Speaker 3>The best way you can improve the lives of women

0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.240
<v Speaker 3>is make men better, men better at being men, what

0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:32.720
<v Speaker 3>a man is.

0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.639
<v Speaker 1>And then, especially if you are young, it can get

0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:42.919
<v Speaker 1>even darker. Nudity, revenge, porn, violence, abuse. More than half

0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.640
<v Speaker 1>of children and adolescents have been exposed to pawn on

0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.200
<v Speaker 1>social media, according to new research release today by Australia's

0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.440
<v Speaker 1>E Safety Commissioner Julie Inman Grant. It says most kids

0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.920
<v Speaker 1>first encounter adult content around age thirteen, and for men

0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.359
<v Speaker 1>much younger, and when they haven't gone looking for it,

0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Jeff Chambers is The Australian's chief political correspondent. Jeff, you

0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.880
<v Speaker 1>spoke to Julie inman Grant and she's really stick about

0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:19.480
<v Speaker 1>the fact that young people may and often will seek

0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.840
<v Speaker 1>out pornography as they get older. But this is different.

0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:23.919
<v Speaker 1>Why is it different?

0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.320
<v Speaker 2>Ten years ago when Facebook emerged, that was really the

0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:33.239
<v Speaker 2>primary sort of social media platform. There were porn websites

0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.440
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. But now we've just had this proliferation,

0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.280
<v Speaker 2>this explosion in growth in a range of social media platforms,

0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:46.760
<v Speaker 2>encrypted messaging apps, even in and around gaming, where a

0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:51.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of young Australian children are being exposed to pornographic

0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:57.320
<v Speaker 2>material quite often inadvertently. They're not necessarily seeking it out,

0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.720
<v Speaker 2>but there's a lot of pop ups people are sending

0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.560
<v Speaker 2>unsolicited dick pics and and other explicit material, and it's

0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.200
<v Speaker 2>really seeped its way into the schoolyards and into homes.

0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.880
<v Speaker 2>So it is just becoming so much more difficult for

0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:21.560
<v Speaker 2>families and parents to know what their kids are seeing online.

0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:26.320
<v Speaker 1>We all remember the mortification of that talk with our parents,

0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:31.440
<v Speaker 1>awkward conversations about sex as adolescents. Slapped us in the face,

0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.560
<v Speaker 1>or maybe we worked it out for ourselves with the

0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.320
<v Speaker 1>help of some self appointed experts in the playground. But

0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.880
<v Speaker 1>now those opportunities for parents to have conversations about sex,

0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:47.520
<v Speaker 1>about healthy relationships, respect intimacy are being subverted by social

0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.760
<v Speaker 1>media and according to the new research, kids are aware

0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.320
<v Speaker 1>of how it can affect their ideas of sex, relationships

0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.800
<v Speaker 1>and gender, but they feel like they're losing control of

0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.719
<v Speaker 1>their own online experience.

0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.719
<v Speaker 2>It's that repeat exposure and it's often peer pressure, particularly

0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.440
<v Speaker 2>when young Australians move into high school.

0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:11.680
<v Speaker 3>And get to their teenage years.

0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.880
<v Speaker 2>And one of the issues raised by julianvan Grant is

0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.239
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they're seeing this violent, extreme pornography without

0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:25.840
<v Speaker 2>any guidance, context, or any appropriate maturity levels, because they

0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.040
<v Speaker 2>might think that a video showing a man aggressively choking

0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.880
<v Speaker 2>a woman during sex on a porn side is what

0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.960
<v Speaker 2>consent sex and healthy relationship should look like. And I

0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.760
<v Speaker 2>think that's why Peter Dutton and Anthony Albernezi are both

0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.120
<v Speaker 2>on a bit of a unity ticket here to try

0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.400
<v Speaker 2>and put every single layer of protection in place, because

0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.720
<v Speaker 2>we know that this unfettered access to pornography at such

0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.159
<v Speaker 2>a young age, when kids are still developing, can have

0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:58.720
<v Speaker 2>really perverse outcomes, whether that is just awful bullying at

0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.680
<v Speaker 2>the very least, to self harm, suicide, and eating disorders.

0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Now the safety Commissioner has the tech platforms in her sites,

0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.520
<v Speaker 1>Julie Mngrant has given tech giants like Google, Meta, Snapchat,

0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.920
<v Speaker 1>and TikTok six months to come up with voluntary codes

0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.680
<v Speaker 1>to protect kids from porn along with other potentially harmful

0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:27.200
<v Speaker 1>content like suicide, serious illness, self harm, and disordered eating.

0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.839
<v Speaker 1>She wants barriers like age verification and tools that allow

0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.960
<v Speaker 1>users or their parents to filter or blur out unwanted

0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:36.960
<v Speaker 1>sexual content.

0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.640
<v Speaker 2>And I guess this goes to one point that I

0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.040
<v Speaker 2>hadn't really thought about, but when a parent buys their

0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.360
<v Speaker 2>child an iPad or an iPhone, quite often there is

0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.680
<v Speaker 2>an opt in element around parental controls and safety measures.

0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.240
<v Speaker 2>And one of the simple things that's being raised here

0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.960
<v Speaker 2>is sibly, these big tech providers can make that an

0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.919
<v Speaker 2>opt out default setting. And if you do that, I

0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.640
<v Speaker 2>think most adults will know that they've got to get

0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.520
<v Speaker 2>in and change that if they wish to change that

0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.440
<v Speaker 2>if there are no children using it, Because the trends

0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.320
<v Speaker 2>show that when it is an opt in arrangement that

0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.160
<v Speaker 2>many people forget about it, don't do it, or don't

0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:22.760
<v Speaker 2>do it properly.

0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.679
<v Speaker 1>If they don't front up. Inman, Grant says she'll set

0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.960
<v Speaker 1>rules for the tech platforms with mandatory standards. Duly Imman.

0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Grant has issued notices to these organizations giving them six

0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.800
<v Speaker 1>months to come up with their own enforceable codes, and

0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.560
<v Speaker 1>she's saying that if they don't do that, she'll take action.

0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.480
<v Speaker 1>But Jeff, this feels like the second issue on which

0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.880
<v Speaker 1>this government is saying to tech giants, if you don't

0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.480
<v Speaker 1>clean up your act, We've going to wave a big

0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.400
<v Speaker 1>stick at you. The other being the social media giants

0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.120
<v Speaker 1>refusal in some instances to pay for the news content

0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.240
<v Speaker 1>that they use. So why not just go straight to

0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:02.080
<v Speaker 1>the big stick.

0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.840
<v Speaker 3>Look, they may well end up there.

0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.680
<v Speaker 2>So Julian and Grant has the Online Safety Act and

0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.160
<v Speaker 2>under phase one that was looking at child sex abuse material,

0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.920
<v Speaker 2>terrorists and extremist materials, and this is part of phase two.

0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.000
<v Speaker 2>We saw in phase one there had been some participation

0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.360
<v Speaker 2>by some of these tech firms, most of them based overseas,

0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.920
<v Speaker 2>most of them in the US very cashed, are very

0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:30.160
<v Speaker 2>lowered up outfits.

0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.599
<v Speaker 3>And what we saw just in recent weeks.

0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Was the lack of involvement in terms of a voluntary code.

0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Julian and Grant had to regulate mandatory codes under law,

0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:47.959
<v Speaker 2>Australian law, and they've given three months for these platforms

0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.439
<v Speaker 2>and tech companies to come forward with their plans around

0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:58.800
<v Speaker 2>protecting kids from pornography and a hard December deadline. Now

0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the argument and a lot of people will say that, well,

0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.959
<v Speaker 2>clearly Australia can't do much in this space, but we're

0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.120
<v Speaker 2>seeing other Western countries going down this same path as

0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.520
<v Speaker 2>we are, and I think it's always important to get

0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.320
<v Speaker 2>action to ensure that all of the other countries such

0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.559
<v Speaker 2>as the US and the UK and the European Union.

0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.680
<v Speaker 3>They all go in a pack to try and force action.

0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And I think it's demanded when we talk about protecting kids,

0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.400
<v Speaker 2>whether it's from child sex material, but in this case

0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.120
<v Speaker 2>pornography and some of those perverse outcomes of that, I

0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.720
<v Speaker 2>think that they have to try and do something.

0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Coming up the tech companies explanations for why they haven't

0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.520
<v Speaker 1>cleaned up before now and can the government actually scare

0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.760
<v Speaker 1>them into action. Don't forget to check us out at

0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.559
<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot Com dot you and consider subscribing. It's

0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.600
<v Speaker 1>where all the actions happening twenty four to seven. We'll

0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:16.160
<v Speaker 1>be back after this break. So why is Julie Inman

0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Grant asking the social media sites to act instead of

0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.680
<v Speaker 1>forcing them to Well, she says the tech companies themselves

0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:28.440
<v Speaker 1>have to create the solutions, like reliable age verification tools

0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:35.400
<v Speaker 1>that kids just can't trick. For example, do you think, though,

0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.320
<v Speaker 1>Jeff as a seasoned observer of the way big companies

0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.160
<v Speaker 1>behave in their relationships with government, are they actually going

0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:42.000
<v Speaker 1>to comply with this?

0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.840
<v Speaker 2>And this is the difficulty for this one because Julian

0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Mgrant describes it as a stack, but there is so

0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.800
<v Speaker 2>many different layers of that stack where you will get breaches.

0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Maybe one company does the right thing, but then using

0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.200
<v Speaker 2>that platform or that technology or device, there will be

0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.840
<v Speaker 2>other areas where that stack is fractured. And I guess

0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:04.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that they're saying that they'll get a

0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.880
<v Speaker 2>full proof, one hundred percent iron clad protection for kids,

0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.720
<v Speaker 2>but they're trying to put as many different layers as possible.

0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.120
<v Speaker 2>To go to your question about these big, cashed up,

0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.720
<v Speaker 2>well resourced companies, the history shows that they do everything

0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.599
<v Speaker 2>they can to get out of adding extra laser complexity

0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:23.920
<v Speaker 2>or costs for themselves.

0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.320
<v Speaker 1>The codes won't just apply to websites and social media

0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:34.719
<v Speaker 1>search engines, hosting services, Internet service providers, instant messaging programs

0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:40.840
<v Speaker 1>sms chat, multiplayer gaming, online dating services, and hardware manufacturers

0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.840
<v Speaker 1>will also be on the hook. So we're starting to

0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.000
<v Speaker 1>see changes. We just need to see consistency across the industry.

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:50.880
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't say that.

0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.200
<v Speaker 2>There's any company in particular that I think is doing nothing.

0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:56.880
<v Speaker 1>I think collectively they.

0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.680
<v Speaker 2>All need to do more. She is very concerned that

0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.440
<v Speaker 2>if unfettered access to online pornography by children is not

0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:10.240
<v Speaker 2>urgently reversed or controlled in a way, that Australia is

0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.839
<v Speaker 2>facing a harmful sexual socialization of an entire generation.

0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 3>And she reflected on the.

0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Fact that this current age is not like the days

0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.120
<v Speaker 2>of the pentase that your dad did in his sock draw.

0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 2>It's now available without any real impediments, and it's just

0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.120
<v Speaker 2>becoming easier for kids to get around blocks, and it's

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:40.559
<v Speaker 2>becoming a really, really difficult issue for parents to police.

0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Jeff Chambers is The Australian's chief political correspondent. Thanks for

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 1>joining us on the front and don't forget. You can

0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.960
<v Speaker 1>read all the coverage of Labour's unfolding crisis in the

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.120
<v Speaker 1>Senate right now at the Australian dot com. Dou