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Speaker 1: From the newsroom and new still come to me.

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Speaker 2: Gooday they're right Andrew Bucklow and a big change is

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Speaker 2: coming to the Internet in about two months time. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it probably will affect you. Is the deal. Accessing anything

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Speaker 2: considered to be adult content online, including porn, is going

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Speaker 2: to become more complicated thanks to New Age verification regulations

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Speaker 2: set to come into effect here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I think many consumers don't realize that this is coming.

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Speaker 1: It will definitely create more headaches.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we'll explain what these changes mean for

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Speaker 2: you and if there's anything you can do to avoid them. Well,

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Speaker 2: if you've ever watched porn online, and let's be honest

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Speaker 2: most of us have, a big change is going to

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Speaker 2: take place very soon. Here to tell us more is

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Speaker 2: Professor Lisa Given from r MIT. Thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for joining me, my pleasure. Okay, this change is going

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Speaker 2: to come into effect in Australia in December. I've got

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Speaker 2: a three pronged question for you. What exactly is this change,

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Speaker 2: who's behind it? And why do those in power think

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Speaker 2: we need it?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'll try to cover all three bases. The short

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Speaker 1: of this is that a major change, which is people

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Speaker 1: are going to have to verify their age or assure

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Speaker 1: their age when they log into accounts on search engines,

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Speaker 1: search services online. This is very new and it's not

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Speaker 1: something that's happening around other parts of the world. So

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Speaker 1: what is happening here is the Australian government is trying

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Speaker 1: to say, look, in certain areas where there's potential for

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Speaker 1: high impact around violence online pornography being a couple of examples,

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Speaker 1: we need to do our best to protect children and

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Speaker 1: their solution for this is to have everyone effectively assure

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Speaker 1: their age when they sign in, so that certain content

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Speaker 1: will simply be filtered out if you're under the age

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Speaker 1: of eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Right, So in short, if you want to look at porn,

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Speaker 2: you have to prove that you're eighteen or older. Correct, Okay?

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Speaker 2: Are we just talking about the obvious sites like porn

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Speaker 2: Hub here, which I hear is very popular, or put

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Speaker 2: this spill over into other mainstream platforms like x formerly

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Speaker 2: known as Twitter and redder as well.

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Speaker 1: It could apply to absolutely anything, And I think that's

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Speaker 1: what's quite unique about it is that rather than say,

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Speaker 1: when you or someone you know goes onto porn hub,

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Speaker 1: rather than going onto that specific service and having them

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Speaker 1: check your age. This is actually being done at the

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Speaker 1: search engine account level. That means anything that you search,

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Speaker 1: when you take words into Google that could be related

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Speaker 1: to online pornography are going to be excluded if you're

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Speaker 1: under eighteen. So you won't even know what's missing if

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Speaker 1: you're under eighteen, because that's all going to happen kind

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Speaker 1: of in behind the system if the system understands that

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Speaker 1: you are not of that age.

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Speaker 2: But if I go to pornhub dot com, then it's

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Speaker 2: Pornhub's responsibility to verify my age. Is that right.

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Speaker 1: It's not a restriction at the level of an individual

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Speaker 1: companies service in this way, it's actually more broad so

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Speaker 1: in the UK, for example, they've implemented age restrictions that

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Speaker 1: would affect a company like Pornhub. Now pornhub might introduce

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Speaker 1: that anyway, you might have to check your age when

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Speaker 1: going on a certain service. But what this government has

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Speaker 1: brought in is something that happens at the search engine

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Speaker 1: login level. So that means if you don't log in

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Speaker 1: to Google, right, if you don't use your Google account

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Speaker 1: and you kind of surf the web without any kind

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Speaker 1: of log in, you'll still find your way to porn Hub,

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Speaker 1: and then the question is are there going to be

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Speaker 1: restrictions on that particular site.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, these sites like Google, Then what happens if

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Speaker 2: they fail to enforce these new rules when they come

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Speaker 2: into effect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a critical question. I mean, the government in

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Speaker 1: many cases we've seen it with social media banning as well,

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Speaker 1: is planning to introduce major fees, major disciplines to these companies.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking sometimes they're saying in the millions and

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Speaker 1: multimillions of dollars for non compliance. The challenge, of course,

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Speaker 1: is that you don't need an account to search online.

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Speaker 1: So from the company's perspective, what they have to do

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Speaker 1: is demonstrate that they are taking those reasonable steps to

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Speaker 1: verify people's ages, check that they are age assured, that

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Speaker 1: they can demonstrate that people with an account are over

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Speaker 1: the age of eighteen, and if people are then searching

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Speaker 1: online for other content under eighteen. There are specific measures

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Speaker 1: they also have to take around, for example, blurring the

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Speaker 1: little images, the thumbnail images that you might see online

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Speaker 1: so that it's intended to reduce the potential harm for

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Speaker 1: kids if they stumble upon an image that's pornographic.

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Speaker 2: How exactly will they sites verify that someone's over eighteen.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question. We're not sure yet exactly what

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Speaker 1: the services are going to choose to do. We know

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Speaker 1: that just ticking a box saying are you over the

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Speaker 1: age of eighteen? Yes, or no is not going to

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Speaker 1: be sufficient. They're going to have to do something either

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Speaker 1: using technology like facial scanning to estimate your age. They

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Speaker 1: could ask for ID. They could also just look at

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Speaker 1: the content they already know about you. If you already

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Speaker 1: have an account and you've had it for twenty years,

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Speaker 1: then they would know that you're obviously over the age

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Speaker 1: of eighteen. That could be enough to satisfy what they

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Speaker 1: need to do.

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Speaker 2: Will this actually work though, because you know, someone could

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Speaker 2: go on their computer with a Google account right and

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Speaker 2: be an adult. But it's not like you log out

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Speaker 2: of your Google account every time you leave the computer.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't the kid just come along and use their parents'

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Speaker 2: Google account.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that is exactly what people do in practice.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have shared devices in the home, or

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Speaker 1: you see people out in restaurants and they hand their

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Speaker 1: iPad over to their young child. This is very common

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Speaker 1: in how people search for information, and of course the

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Speaker 1: systems make it quite seamless to be able to even

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Speaker 1: transfer content. You know, I'm looking on my laptop now

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Speaker 1: and then I grab something on the phone. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: a very integrated way of looking for information. And that

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Speaker 1: means that if parents really wanted to protect their kids,

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Speaker 1: they've got to ensure that they're logged out on all

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Speaker 1: those devices. That's really going to interrupt kind of that

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Speaker 1: seamless flow of information in the way we've come to

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Speaker 1: know it.

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Speaker 2: Well, it genuinely stop under eighteens from being exposed to

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Speaker 2: things like porn? Or is it just going to make

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Speaker 2: life harder for adults? So you know, I really aren't

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Speaker 2: doing anything wrong if they want to access adult content.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a great question. I mean, I think you know,

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Speaker 1: they are likely to stop those kind of incidental things

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Speaker 1: from happening. We always hear stories about people, you know,

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Speaker 1: starting out looking at say the Wiggles on YouTube, and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly they stumble upon something that is definitely not

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Speaker 1: safe for work. So it might stop those kinds of

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Speaker 1: things for happening, But there are so many ways that

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Speaker 1: people could get around this if they you know, if

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Speaker 1: a young child purposefully wanted to seek out this content,

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Speaker 1: they could hop on a VPN, they could definitely look

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Speaker 1: for a logged in device in the home to get

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Speaker 1: around it. They could have someone else log them in

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Speaker 1: to look at some content without knowing what the implications

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Speaker 1: of that login. My mean in terms of measuring whether

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Speaker 1: this is going to be really valuable, We're going to

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Speaker 1: have to do a lot of research to really see

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Speaker 1: what the outcome is going to be. But it will

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Speaker 1: definitely create more headaches for the everyday consumer and how

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Speaker 1: they log in use search services.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned VPNs there, So a VPN is something a

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Speaker 2: lot of people have. It's an online service that hides

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Speaker 2: your activity and kind of make it looks like you're

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Speaker 2: browsing from somewhere else, perhaps overseas where these laws aren't

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Speaker 2: in effect. So will ossies be able to bypass these

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Speaker 2: age verification laws with a VPN?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, this is definitely a loophole, and we've

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Speaker 1: seen that in the UK where they recently did bring

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Speaker 1: in this hope of restriction for online porn sites. Immediately

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Speaker 1: VPN registrations went up by an amazing number, something like

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundred percent increase within the first four days of

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Speaker 1: that going live.

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Speaker 2: Stick around in just a moment, Lisa's going to give

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Speaker 2: us her opinion on these new age verification regulations. Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: I'm chatting to Professor Lisa Given about these new age

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Speaker 2: verification rules that are coming into effect from December. Lisa,

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I've got this right

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Speaker 2: in my head. So if I refuse to sign into Google,

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Speaker 2: I just use Google as a guest. Can I access

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Speaker 2: adult content without having to verify my age or will

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Speaker 2: it still attempt to get me to prove that I'm

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Speaker 2: over eighteen?

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Speaker 1: It will still give you all of those links. What

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Speaker 1: it will do is that you'll notice some blurring of

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Speaker 1: images because that's another requirement. So people who are not

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Speaker 1: logged in, there's still an expectation those services will try

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Speaker 1: to protect a child from stumbling upon an image that

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Speaker 1: might be inappropriate. Right, But once the link is there,

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Speaker 1: you can click through to the link, you can go

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Speaker 1: to all the places you would normally go. The only

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Speaker 1: restrictions you'd face then would be ones on the site

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Speaker 1: itself that the company has decided to implement.

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Speaker 2: And they're not obligated like the porn hubs of the

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Speaker 2: world aren't obligated to set up an age verification it's

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Speaker 2: just the bigger ones like Google.

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Speaker 1: Correct. So this is really the legislation that's been brought in,

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Speaker 1: or the regulation is actually at targeting the search services,

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Speaker 1: not the kind of companies and sites that sit within

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Speaker 1: the service or that the service accesses. So in some

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Speaker 1: ways it's actually a much more broader control, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And that's partly why I think people get quite nervous

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Speaker 1: about it, because you know, there are many people that

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Speaker 1: don't search for porn online. They're just doing everyday business,

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Speaker 1: doing their thing. They want to be logged in. Now

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Speaker 1: those folks are going to have to assure their age,

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Speaker 1: and if they don't do that, or if their ages

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Speaker 1: is legitimately under eighteen, there could be content blocked that

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Speaker 1: they have a legitimate right to see. So a lot

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Speaker 1: will depend also on you know, how are we defining

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Speaker 1: online pornography? How are the systems going to judge whether

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Speaker 1: something should be blocked or not. We don't actually know

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Speaker 1: how the search services are going to do that.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what from the but I'll just be

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Speaker 2: keeping my Google accounts signed out all the time. Not

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Speaker 2: that I'm looking up porn every minute, but it seems

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Speaker 2: like that's the smart work around here.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's certainly going to be the simplest way, at

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Speaker 1: least in the short run. You know, we'll see what

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Speaker 1: happens with this type of rule, but particularly if you're

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Speaker 1: being required to kind of log in and do the

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Speaker 1: age verification step every single time, you'd probably get very

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Speaker 1: tired of that. We don't even know if that will

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Speaker 1: be a one off or if they will decide to

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Speaker 1: make us do bad at every single log in.

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Speaker 2: Lisa personally, final question, what do you think of this

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Speaker 2: policy and what effect do you think it'll have here

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Speaker 2: in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually a bit of a simplistic solution

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Speaker 1: to what's a really complex problem. I definitely believe if

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Speaker 1: we've got content that's for eighteen and overs, there should

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Speaker 1: be some controls. But I think if it's more targeted

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Speaker 1: and dealt with at the site by site level, that's

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Speaker 1: likely a better solution. Trying to do this, you know,

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Speaker 1: one size fits all across an entire search practice is

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Speaker 1: actually really really difficult, and my concern is that we're

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Speaker 1: going to inadvertently block really relevant information, perhaps health information.

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Speaker 1: For example, if a young child was wanting information like

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Speaker 1: teenager looking up things about breast cancer. The word bress

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Speaker 1: could inadvertently, you know, push them away from content that's

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Speaker 1: actually extremely valuable. So I think we're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: see how this plays out. And so when December January

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Speaker 1: comes around and people start getting a lot of these requests,

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Speaker 1: I think Australians will likely do as the Brits have

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Speaker 1: done and start hopping on VPNs.

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Speaker 2: Lisa given from r MIT. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: telling us about this big change, and we'll see how

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Speaker 2: it goes in Australia when it comes into effecting December.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, my plature, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I'll

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Speaker 2: be back in your ears next Friday. We're only doing

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Speaker 2: one episode a week or from the newsroom now. It

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Speaker 2: just means that we can put more effort into each episode.

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Speaker 2: We're filming all of our interviews, which you can watch

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Speaker 2: at news dot com DOTU or on YouTube as well. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you'll excuse me, I am off to figure out

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Speaker 2: how to get a VPN because I want to look

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Speaker 2: up some spicy content come December. I'll catch you later.

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Speaker 2: Follow or subscribe to from the newsroom wherever you get

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Speaker 2: your podcasts.