WEBVTT - Why the antisemitism Royal Commission is boiling over

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Friday, August seven, twenty twenty six. A United States

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<v Speaker 1>military base in Western Australia. The Australians revealing today plans

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<v Speaker 1>are well advanced to stand up a Navy presence of

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<v Speaker 1>two than three hundred American personnel to support the aucas

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<v Speaker 1>nuclear submarine deal. Ben Packham has the exclusive right now

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<v Speaker 1>at the Australian dot com dot au. More than fifty

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<v Speaker 1>four thousand people who are not citizens of Australia have

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<v Speaker 1>used the federal government's five percent housing deposit scheme. Permanent

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<v Speaker 1>residents are eligible for the scheme, designed to support first

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<v Speaker 1>home buyers into property even if they own houses overseas,

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<v Speaker 1>Emotions are running high at the Bondai Beach Massacre Royal Commission,

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<v Speaker 1>with accusations of grand standing and the pursuit of clickbait,

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<v Speaker 1>and even the commissioners getting fired up today how one

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<v Speaker 1>Jewish leader found himself being cross examined about the actions

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<v Speaker 1>of Israel at a forum many thought would be about

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<v Speaker 1>easing tensions rather than inflaming them. Our reporter Bimini Plessa

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<v Speaker 1>is here in just a moment It's nearly three years

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<v Speaker 1>since the October nine, twenty twenty three protest on the

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<v Speaker 1>steps of the Opera House, but the anger is still reverberating, not.

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<v Speaker 2>Reality, because you had protesters proudly screaming if the Jews

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<v Speaker 2>where the Jews. One individual screamed out, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>kill them all. There were flares being thrown at the police,

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<v Speaker 2>there were flags being burnt. It was a scene of

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<v Speaker 2>international disgrace and infamy. It's amongst the clearest examples of

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<v Speaker 2>anti Symberism we've seen over the past few years.

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<v Speaker 1>David Ossip is a thirty four year old lawyer and

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<v Speaker 1>former local politician who works at an energy company. He's

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<v Speaker 1>recently got married and welcomed a first baby, and for

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<v Speaker 1>the past four years he's been president of the Jewish

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<v Speaker 1>Board of Deputies, an umbrella body with representatives elected by

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<v Speaker 1>Jewish hospitals, schools, synagogues and community organizations. That's made Ossip

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<v Speaker 1>one of the Australian Jewish community's most visible public faces,

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<v Speaker 1>and this week he found himself being cross examined about

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<v Speaker 1>the actions of the State of Israel.

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<v Speaker 3>You understood, didn't you, and you appreciated the Palestinian Australians

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<v Speaker 3>were likewise filled with deep fear with respect to what

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<v Speaker 3>the future held for those in the occupied territory.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I'm not the best place to opine on what

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<v Speaker 2>Palistinian Australians were feelings.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely, this exchange is from the Royal Commission into Anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitism and Social Cohesion, and covering the story is our

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<v Speaker 1>reporter Bivini Plessa.

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<v Speaker 4>When protesters decided to rally on that October nine, when

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<v Speaker 4>the Opera House was to be let up in the

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<v Speaker 4>colors of the Israeli flag, the Jewish community was rattled.

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<v Speaker 4>They were upset. And then when language like fuck the

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<v Speaker 4>Jews was heard at that protest and Israeli flags were burned,

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<v Speaker 4>he said that was almost salt in the wound, or

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<v Speaker 4>that it stole the chance for the local community to

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<v Speaker 4>go to the Opera House and see those colors and

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<v Speaker 4>mourn those lost in the attack.

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<v Speaker 1>Also was in the witness box to give evidence about

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<v Speaker 1>public protests and police responses.

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<v Speaker 4>Tuesday was a little bit different because David also wasn't

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<v Speaker 4>necessarily talking about his personal experience or the general concept

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<v Speaker 4>of anti Semitism, and because it was about these protests

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<v Speaker 4>and specific groups namely Palestine Action Group and the Australian

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<v Speaker 4>Palestine Advocacy Network. They were in the limelight per se,

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<v Speaker 4>and so their lawyers were given leave to cross examine

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<v Speaker 4>David Ossip, and so they were able to ask him

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<v Speaker 4>about all the evidence he'd submitted and the qualms he

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<v Speaker 4>had with those protests.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there was Dominic Toomey sc, the lawyer for the

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<v Speaker 1>Palestine Action Group, that's the group that's been organizing the

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<v Speaker 1>big city protests that have been going on really since

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<v Speaker 1>October seven. And then Ragni matur sc she's the lawyer

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<v Speaker 1>for the Australian Palestine Advocacy Network, an associated about different group,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've been given leave by the Royal Commissioner to

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<v Speaker 1>cross examine David Ossip on two parts of his statement.

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<v Speaker 1>Why what about those parts? Were controversial parts of it

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<v Speaker 1>that were specifically discussed in that cross examination were David

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<v Speaker 1>Ossip asserted that the.

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<v Speaker 4>Protest at the Opera House on October nine was planned

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<v Speaker 4>to go ahead before Israel ever launched a a response

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<v Speaker 4>to the October seven attack, and so that was definitely

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<v Speaker 4>put to him in that hearing. In that cross examination,

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<v Speaker 4>he definitely doubled down on that assertion. But As those

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<v Speaker 4>questions were being put to him, he was asked about

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<v Speaker 4>certain air strikes that the IDF supposedly launched against Gaza,

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<v Speaker 4>and he sort of stopped the questioning and said, I

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<v Speaker 4>don't really understand why on a day when we're focusing

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<v Speaker 4>on anti Semitism in Australia and protests that impacted Sydney's

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<v Speaker 4>Jewish community, why are we getting caught up, in his words,

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<v Speaker 4>the minutia of a foreign military's actions.

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<v Speaker 1>This goes right to the heart of this very hot

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<v Speaker 1>debate that's been going on between advocates for the Palestinian

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<v Speaker 1>community and for the Jewish community in Sydney, doesn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the issue.

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<v Speaker 4>Why was a.

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<v Speaker 1>Protest held at the Opera House where there were chants

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<v Speaker 1>alligedly of where's the Jews? Or fuck the Jews or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe even guess the Jews? When Israel hadn't done anything

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<v Speaker 1>that David Ossop's point, Israel had not yet responded.

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<v Speaker 5>I want to suggest to you that you have seen

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<v Speaker 5>nothing that has emanated from the organizers of the rally,

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<v Speaker 5>namely the Palestine Action Group, which would suggest in any

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<v Speaker 5>way that the rally was being convened to celebrate those

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<v Speaker 5>despicable attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately for the organizers. When you hold an event, you're

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<v Speaker 2>responsible for what takes place at that event.

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<v Speaker 1>Roima Tour took him to statements that had been made

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<v Speaker 1>by the IDF, by the Government of Israel, by Benjamin

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<v Speaker 1>Etnia who in which it was clear that they were

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<v Speaker 1>going to launch offensive action against Gaza, even that power

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<v Speaker 1>and water supplies had been cut off to the Gaza strip.

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<v Speaker 3>The following day he declared war. And it's that statement,

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<v Speaker 3>mister Ossit do you agree that it does not align

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<v Speaker 3>with your assertion in paragraph.

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<v Speaker 2>If no, I stand by my assertion completely. As I've

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<v Speaker 2>told you before.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is a legitimate field for debate. What

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<v Speaker 1>was Israel going to do? Was it legitimate for Palestinian

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<v Speaker 1>people or their supporters to be angry or upset about that?

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<v Speaker 1>The issue is was it okay for this to be

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<v Speaker 1>happening at the Royal Commission? Right?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? Yeah, So David Ossip's real qualm and what other

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<v Speaker 4>Jewish leaders have since chimed in on is this whole

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<v Speaker 4>hearing block. It was one day. There was one day

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<v Speaker 4>dedicated to protests and their impact on the local Jewish community.

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<v Speaker 4>And so David Ossip and others were pretty frustrated that

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<v Speaker 4>on that hearing, on that day, the focus was trying

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<v Speaker 4>to be shifted towards Israeli military conduct.

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<v Speaker 1>This exchange between Alsuper and Mature quickly made its way

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<v Speaker 1>to social media, and Alex Riftin, the co Chief Executive

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<v Speaker 1>of the Executive Council of Australian Jury, spoke to you

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<v Speaker 1>about it. What did he say?

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<v Speaker 4>He basically said that he was appalled at the lawyer's

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<v Speaker 4>line of questioning. He felt like the Jewish community was

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<v Speaker 4>given a chance to discuss why they were upset to

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<v Speaker 4>see those protests happen here and how it affected them here,

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<v Speaker 4>and so he took it far enough to say that

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<v Speaker 4>the lawyers shouldn't have been questioning David Ossip, but the

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<v Speaker 4>protesters should have been the one being probed on why

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<v Speaker 4>they did hold those protests.

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<v Speaker 1>Then and then Virginia Bill fired back the next days.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So Wednesday mornings hearing after opening statements went pretty quickly,

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<v Speaker 4>Virginia Bell stopped the hearing and said that she disagreed

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<v Speaker 4>because Alex's words were that the hearing was hijacked and

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<v Speaker 4>the focus was steered away. Virginia Bell said it was

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<v Speaker 4>not hijacked. And the line of questioning was fair enough

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<v Speaker 4>because it was pointing to factual parts of mister Ossip's statement.

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<v Speaker 1>He's David also being cross examined by Dominic Toomey sc

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<v Speaker 1>Council for the Palestine Action.

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<v Speaker 5>Group, addressing assertions that you have had and asking you

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<v Speaker 5>whether you are aware of contrary fact that is that, indeed,

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<v Speaker 5>on the seventh of October, air strikes had been commenced

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<v Speaker 5>by the Israel Defense Force on the Gaza Street.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'm happy to address that again, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think this line of questioning is very instructive.

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<v Speaker 6>Mister Ossip. If the line of questioning falls outside matters

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<v Speaker 6>that are properly before me, I will rule the question inadmissible.

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<v Speaker 6>I have not made that.

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<v Speaker 2>Rule absolute Comissioner. I fully respect that.

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<v Speaker 1>David Alsop is a tough guy. I mean, he is

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<v Speaker 1>out there in the public domain all the time, putting

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<v Speaker 1>his point of view very forcefully. He's clearly someone who

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<v Speaker 1>can hold his own in and debate. He held his

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<v Speaker 1>own in the cross examination right, although there were objections

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<v Speaker 1>from some of the other lawyers. Do you think he

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<v Speaker 1>needed to be defended by Alex and needed to have

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<v Speaker 1>it turn into a dispute with the commissioner.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a fair question. I think it was clear in

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<v Speaker 4>the hearing that he was pretty solid. You know, he

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<v Speaker 4>didn't seem rattled by the questions he was there were

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<v Speaker 4>being put to him. He did have things to say

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<v Speaker 4>about them and question their relevance, but he seemed pretty

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<v Speaker 4>sure of himself and his answers. I think the reason

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<v Speaker 4>that someone like Alex and also the father of Matilda Bee,

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<v Speaker 4>the ten year old girl who was killed at Bondai,

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<v Speaker 4>he also chimed in with very similar frustrations about that

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<v Speaker 4>focus being redirected. I think those came in from a

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<v Speaker 4>place of being representatives of a Jewish community who lost people,

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<v Speaker 4>and seeing a hearing that they felt was a chance

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<v Speaker 4>to probe the social fracturing that led to that sort

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<v Speaker 4>of conflict or that incident in December, they felt frustrated

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<v Speaker 4>and aggrieved almost that the limelight was taken away there

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<v Speaker 4>or attempted to be. And so I don't necessarily think

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<v Speaker 4>someone like Alex was chiming in to defend David Ossip,

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<v Speaker 4>but more so as a representative of a community that

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<v Speaker 4>felt like the focus was shifted away on a day

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<v Speaker 4>when it should have been here.

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<v Speaker 1>It's called the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism and Social

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<v Speaker 1>Cohesion in that order, I think there are some people

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<v Speaker 1>in the community who would prefer it to be focusing

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<v Speaker 1>also on Islamophobia and discrimination against Muslim people, or maybe

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<v Speaker 1>on the conflict more generally. The Jewish community, by and large,

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<v Speaker 1>I think regards as a bit of a truth telling process, though.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't they on that islamophobia point. When Virginia Bell stopped

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<v Speaker 4>the hearing on Wednesday to discuss this, she pointed out

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<v Speaker 4>that the Council for Apan running Mature had been hit

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<v Speaker 4>with a barrage of emails in the less than twenty

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<v Speaker 4>four hours since that hearing until Wednesday that were, in

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<v Speaker 4>her words, like vile, abusive, islamophobic language. And she really

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<v Speaker 4>did make a point to say, in the same way

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<v Speaker 4>that people like David Ossop who get up and discuss

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<v Speaker 4>how anti Semitism has impacted Jewish community, no one who

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<v Speaker 4>is Muslim or even representing a group that might be

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<v Speaker 4>affiliated with Muslim people should be targeted by Islamophobia. So

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<v Speaker 4>that has been touched on in the commission.

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<v Speaker 6>It doesn't reflect well on those who make either anti

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<v Speaker 6>Semitic or islamophobic attacks on the interests that they seek

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<v Speaker 6>to promote. I'll say no more about that.

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<v Speaker 1>The hearings have been now going for three months and

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<v Speaker 1>the point of a Royal Commission is to deliver a

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<v Speaker 1>report and some recommendations to the government. But really I

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<v Speaker 1>think the point of a Royal Commission is the public hearings.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is where Virginia Bell can make her impact.

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<v Speaker 1>I know they're being very closely watched around Australia, getting

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<v Speaker 1>great numbers I think for the Royal Commission on their website.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's an important debate to be having. Where is

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<v Speaker 1>it going now?

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<v Speaker 4>In the past few months, we've heard a lot about

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<v Speaker 4>the impact of anti Semitism, but recently we've turned our

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<v Speaker 4>focus towards what's driving those attitudes and extremism generally. So

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<v Speaker 4>Sarah Meger from the University of Melbourne spoke on Thursday

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<v Speaker 4>about how deeply ingrained misogyny is in a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>variations of hate, including anti Semitism.

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<v Speaker 1>That's interesting, isn't it. We hear a lot about Andrew

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<v Speaker 1>Tait and kind of the manisphere, but I've never heard

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<v Speaker 1>it linked directly to anti Semitism.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was interesting because she did in her testimony

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<v Speaker 4>touch on the fact that students in schools have been

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<v Speaker 4>known to be influenced by figures like Andrew Tate. She

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<v Speaker 4>even mentioned instances of teen boys making rape jokes on campus.

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<v Speaker 4>But what was interesting was the way she said misogyny

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<v Speaker 4>is identifiable in almost every kind of hate that researchers

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<v Speaker 4>see coming up in Australia. She also said negative attitudes

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<v Speaker 4>or violent attitudes towards women were kind of key indicators

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<v Speaker 4>that a young individual might have violent tendencies or might

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<v Speaker 4>be prone to finding an interest in extremist ideologies in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>One very masculine movement is the neo Nazis in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>They did a very memorable protest out of the front

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<v Speaker 1>of New Southalest Parliament late in twenty twenty five. That

0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.080
<v Speaker 1>was when a whole bank of them stood in black

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<v Speaker 1>clothing holding up a sign saying abolish the Jewish Lobby.

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<v Speaker 1>The government was clearly shocked and kind of scrambled to

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<v Speaker 1>change the law after that. What have we heard about

0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 1>that protest?

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<v Speaker 4>So that protest did form part of Tuesday's hearing when

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<v Speaker 4>we were looking into protests generally. A representative from New

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<v Speaker 4>South Wales Police said that the higher ups simply did

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<v Speaker 4>not know the protest was coming. So even though there

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<v Speaker 4>was a Form one submission from the White Australia Group,

0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.680
<v Speaker 4>which is quite notorious, that literally said that these sixty

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 4>men were going to hold a banner saying abolish the

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:51.520
<v Speaker 4>Jewish Lobby, that wasn't mentioned to senior police or the

0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 4>state government. So it wasn't until the few hours less

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<v Speaker 4>than twenty four hours before that protest that key figures

0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.360
<v Speaker 4>in the state government and the police actually knew it

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<v Speaker 4>was coming.

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<v Speaker 1>That protest left a lot of Jewish people feeling afraid

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<v Speaker 1>and shocked, especially as you know you mentioned the Form

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<v Speaker 1>one in New South Wales, like in most lial democracies,

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<v Speaker 1>the police's job is to approve and then manage protests.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so even though the police, these people do have

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<v Speaker 4>a right to protest, so the police just have to

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<v Speaker 4>manage that safely. But what the Commission heard on Tuesday

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<v Speaker 4>is that there was an intention to inform the Jewish

0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 4>community that this protest was coming, that these things might

0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 4>be said that they may want to steer clear or

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.400
<v Speaker 4>at least just have a heads up, But due to

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 4>a breakdown in communication, that notification never happened. So community

0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.000
<v Speaker 4>representatives were not told and Jewish people were really caught

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<v Speaker 4>off guard by such an extreme protest directed pretty clearly

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 4>at them.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Ber, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Buni Plesa is a reporter with The Australian. You can

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<v Speaker 1>check out our coverage of the Royal Commission live at

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot com dot a u