WEBVTT - Can journalists call someone a murderer? 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.400 You can listen to the Front on your smart speaker 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.640 every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:23.520 the news from the Australian. From the Australian, here's what's 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:28.040 on the Front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Wednesday, July thirty one. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.479 Drama in the Bush as regional airline REX fights to 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.400 stay in the air. REX is in a trading halt 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.720 amid fears it's on the brink of collapse, but it's 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:46.760 the only carrier on dozens of routes to remote locations. 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.000 Inflation numbers come out today and it's not going to 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.240 be pretty. Analysts they're expecting a jump in price growth 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.760 to three point eight percent in the year to June, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.280 raising fears of yet another interest rate rise next week. 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.400 You can be the first to know when the figures 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:07.880 come out at the Australian dot com. Dorau John Perros 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:12.240 was acquitted of murdering his ex girlfriend Shandy Blackburn. Then 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:15.960 a coroner said he did in fact kill Shandy. Now, 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.679 a defamation case by Paris against The Australian poses the 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.800 question is it okay for journalists to question the finding 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:24.480 of a jury? 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:26.080 Today, Day two. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.520 Of Paris's bold bid to show his reputation was seriously 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.880 harmed by the Australians podcast Shandy Story. John Perros has 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:46.240 always denied wrongdoing. It's one of the most harrowing cases 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:47.520 in Australian history. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.720 I just yelled out as anyone got a torch, theno's 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:52.520 got my baby. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:57.240 The verdict in Missus Chamberlain's case guilty for mister Chamberlain guilty. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.400 Missus Chamberlain was then sentenced to life and press. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.040 Today it has ended with the fourth coronial inquest finding 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.640 that Azaria Chamberlain was killed by dingo, as her parents 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.000 had claimed from the beginning. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.760 The story of Lindy Chamberlain and her husband Michael, whose 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.400 nine week old baby Azaria died at Ularu in nineteen 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.440 eighty It's one of our greatest miscarriages of justice. A 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:26.440 family's life ruined by a wrongful conviction. A jury found 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.880 them guilty. Three decades later, a coroner, examining fresh evidence, 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.600 said they were not guilty. This is Coroner Elizabeth Morris 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:35.720 in twenty twelve. 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.400 Please accept my sincere sympathy on the death of your 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.720 special and loved daughter, insists her Azaria. I'm so sorry 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.680 for your loss time does not remove the pain and 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.799 sadness of the death of a child. 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.920 The case of Azaria Chamberlain was invoked in the Queensland 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:02.600 Supreme Caught on Wednesday by Justice Peter Applegarth. He's hearing 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.240 another case where a jury's decision went the opposite way 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:07.240 to a coroner. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.000 The coroner found the Dingo did it. A Darwin jury 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.640 finds Lyndy Chamberlain did it. The coroner was right. 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.240 This is the matter of John Perros. He was acquitted 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.200 by a jury in twenty nineteen of murdering his ex 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.359 girlfriend Shandy Blackburn, but he was found by a coroner 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.000 in twenty twenty to be the murderer. We're using a 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.040 voice actor to bring you the judge's words as spoken 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:34.560 in court. 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.440 So don't we have something similar here that the jury acquitted. 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:44.360 The tone of episode thirteen is doing their duty. They 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.560 should have acquitted on the evidence that was before them, 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:52.080 but the coroner made these findings on additional evidence. 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.760 The judge was questioning David Helvadjian, a barrister representing John 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.880 Perros in his defamation case sparked by the Australians Blockbuster 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:08.760 investigative podcast Shandy's Story Peros has always denied killing Shandy, 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.280 just as Applegarth is asking this. Just like in the 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.600 Chamberlain case, the jury in John Perros's case did not 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.520 have the same evidence that the coroner was later able 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.880 to consider. The podcast pointed this out and even quoted 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.839 Shandy's mother saying if she was on the jury, she 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:32.360 would probably have acquitted Perros because the evidence just wasn't there. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.920 So the judge wants to know. Isn't the podcast allowed 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:41.840 to point this out? Here's what David Helvadjin, representing John Perros, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:42.760 told the court. 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.960 My submission still stands that episode thirteen causes serious harm 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.000 because of the removal of any doubt. It imputes murderer 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.480 and tells a listener why they can be sure of murderer. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.280 This case is a big deal, not just for us 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.919 at the Australian, but for journalism more generally. If a 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.800 jury makes one finding and a coroner makes another, how 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:14.560 are journalists supposed to report? Shandy Blackburn was left to 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.880 die in a gutter in the North Queensland tropical city 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.080 of Mackay in February twenty thirteen. She had been stabbed 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.640 more than twenty times as she walked home from work. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.640 Her ex boyfriend, John Perros was charged and acquitted of 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.200 the murder, but a coroner who compelled Perros to give 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.520 evidence found he did stab Shandy to death. That would 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.080 have been the end of it, because once acquitted, Perros 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.480 could not be tried again without fresh evidence, until investigative 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:47.880 journalist Headley Thomas came along with his twenty twenty one 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.960 podcast for the Australian Shandy's Story. This is a moment 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.120 from episode one of shandy Story. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.880 Shandy and John were sometimes in passionate all consuming love 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.840 and an other times in deep, self doubting despair at 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:08.920 their exhausting, abusive rows. The jealousies were toxic. John had 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.600 made no secret of what he called his serious trust issues. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.960 In that first episode, Headley explored doubts over who really 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:17.840 killed Shandy. 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.279 I've interviewed Mackay, friends of John Perros, and talked to 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.320 others at length off the record. They described John as 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.360 gentle and caring, a tough fighter in the boxing ring, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.360 but a good natured soul and loyal to a fault. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.679 A bit intense in relationships, yes, but surely not a murderer. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.800 Peros is not complaining about the first twelve episodes of 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:48.800 this podcast. He says episode thirteen defamed him by suggesting 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.599 the jury got it wrong and he was in fact 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.440 a murderer, and that's why he's suing Nationwide News, publisher 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.720 of The Australian, Headley Thomas, and shandy sister Shanna Blackburn. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.359 The Australian's lawyers want the judge to listen to episodes 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.400 one to twelve as well, because they say there's a 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.240 huge amount of context and background that ensures the podcast 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.200 is fair to Peros and allows the audience to make 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.119 up its own mind. Peros's lawyers are arguing in court 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.720 that most Australians were unaware of the coroner's finding that 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.760 Peros was a murderer. They say because Shandy's story was 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 wildly popular, sitting at the top of the podcast charts 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:37.200 for months, it caused serious harm to his reputation. A 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.440 date has not yet been set for the full hearing 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.400 of this trial. What's happening right now in the Queensland 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.480 Supreme Court is a high stakes preliminary hearing where Dowd's 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.360 obtained s C counsel for the defendants, that is, the 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.360 Australian Headley and Shanna is attempting to have Peros's case 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.840 thrown out before the case even begins. It all turns 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.440 on a notion called serious harm under defamation law. Perros 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.200 has to demonstrate the publication he's complaining about Episode thirteen 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.040 caused him serious harm. Bar Simptain says that can't possibly 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:11.840 be the case. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.640 The coroner's finding is a true fact. Episode thirteen has 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.720 said nothing more than the conclusion to which the coroner came. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.520 He is a killer. The real cause of the harm 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.840 to the plaintiff's reputation is because the coroner made a finding. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.880 Had it not been for that finding, this podcast may 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.080 never have been made. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.560 Episode thirteen included emotional interviews with Shandy's mother and sister, 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.280 and examinations of how the coroner had before him evidence 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.640 that Dury never got to hear. For example, the coroner 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.560 had access to CCTV of what he accepted was John 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.360 Perros's car driving near the scene of Shandy's murder, and 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.440 evidence about when John Perros's phone was turned on and off. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.960 The coroner had access to John Perros's initial record of 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.080 interview with police, and the coroner compelled Peros to give 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.840 evidence something Peros didn't want to do for fear of 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:07.280 incriminating himself. 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.000 To say of somebody that they are a murderer. It's 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.160 been found that he's a murderer. To call him a murderer, 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.080 or to say yeah, I agree with that finding. What 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.839 more harm does that do? How is its serious harm? 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.720 Just as Peter Applegarth put this to Dowd's Obtain, Episode 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.600 thirteen presented all these facts, but it also endorsed the 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.199 coroner's findings and suggested the jury got it wrong. 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.640 It bolsters the coroner's finding to something that may be right, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:42.080 may be wrong, probably right, to something that is definitely right. 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.160 They are true facts that there was evidence that was 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.240 heard by the coroner that was not heard by the jury. 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.760 Episode thirteen was a revelation of those facts that were 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.600 part of the finding and providing some explanation to the listeners. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.360 How could he have been acquitted? Well, it was made 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.520 plain the coroner had evidence the jury didn't have. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.479 After the break exactly what Episode thirteen said. Original investigative 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.320 reporting is what we do at The Australian every day. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.640 In a world of misinformation and hot takes, you can 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.960 invest in reliable, credible, journalism for a lot less than 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.040 the price of your morning coffee. Right now, it's a 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.880 dollar a week for the first four weeks. Check us 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.160 out at the Australian dot com dot ayu and we'll 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:50.520 be back after this break. In court on Tuesday, David Helvajian, 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.440 the barrister representing John Perros, took the judge through the 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.320 transcript of episode thirteen and explained why he believed it 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.360 caused serious harm to his client. We'll play the lines 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.280 from the episode with David Helvagian's commentary. We've used a 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.120 voice actor to bring you David Helvagian's words. First, you'll 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.960 hear the real audio from episode thirteen with Shanna Blackburn 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:14.360 speaking to Headley Thomas. 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.559 One matter of fact, it was him, how can you 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:20.439 be so sure? 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.800 And then we have these lines that I say directly 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.800 go to this publication establishing that the acquittal was wrong. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.000 Because I've seen more evidence than what was presented at 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.480 the trial. We know the evidence that was ruled out 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.400 before the trial, we know the evidence that hasn't been seen, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:44.679 and it's undeniable. When you have seen all that evidence 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:50.520 together that there is any other person responsible. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.839 For this, then what you are saying is that he's 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:55.000 got away with murder. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.440 I think it's a letdown in our justice system. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.800 To episodes thirteen, my submission is the most likely inference 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.400 is people know the plaintiff is one of two suspects, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.320 they know about the coroner's findings. There's a question in 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.160 their minds why there's a dichotomy between a jury acquittal 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:22.040 within two hours versus a coroner's findings. Mister Perros is 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.520 a suspect with mister William Daniel, and there's a big 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.040 question mark as to who really committed the murder. 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:33.839 Helvajian had earlier presented as evidence a few anonymous Reddit comments, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.080 including these. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.040 One hundred percent he did just listen to this. Her 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:40.400 ex absolutely did it. 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.040 That kind of certainty is what episode thirteen provides, and 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.120 that's where serious harm arises. 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.040 In episode thirteen, Headley Thomas tells the audience John Perros's phone, 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.320 which was rarely turned off, had been switched off on 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.640 the nights before Shandy's murder. Headley spoke to Vicky Blackburn, 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:00.839 Andy's mother. 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.120 Now, the jurors in John's murder trial didn't hear anything 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:10.400 about John's mobile phone usage, and that inactivity but Vicky 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.520 and Shanna and the cops knew it. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:18.400 He went for three nights. He did the same thing. 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.480 He turned his phone off at the same time. He 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.760 tried that for three nights and got successful. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.480 Vicki Blackburn, the victim's mother, insinuates that he got lucky 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.120 that night she was walking home from work the prior 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.640 knight she got picked up by her boyfriend. The insinuation 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.000 is he was stalking. Now that evidence wasn't before the jury, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.320 so it's another element that undercuts the acquittal. 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:50.199 In my submission, David Helvagian read to the judge words 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.480 in the episode from former detective Scott Furlong. He and 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.199 Headley were discussing the fact that some of the evidence 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.920 that was before the coroner had not been put to 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.440 the jury. She is got Furlong talking to Headley in 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.680 episode thirteen. Scott Furlong speaks first, So. 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.720 What would the baggyars detective know about prosecuting a case 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:12.120 or trust the process? 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.559 I hear that at the same time as you've said, 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.760 you're so disappointed because in your view, you arrested the 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:26.640 right person, So therefore the process you've trusted has freed 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:27.160 the killer. 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.360 Yeah, take that one to bed with you. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:34.359 It's hard to get your hair around. 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:34.720 That, it is. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.440 But yeah, you feel you've let the family down, You 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.440 feel you let the community down to have a not 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.080 guilty verdict when you know in your heart of hearts 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:48.200 that there's somebody that's responsible for her murder and you 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.520 arrested that person and put them before the courts. 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:51.760 We did our part. 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:52.760 We caught the killer. 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.280 In my opinion, Here's how David Helvajan described that in 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:58.360 court on Tuesday. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.840 Now, if comments like that do not remove any doubt 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.280 in the listener's mind, it actually gets worse in my 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:07.560 respectful submission. 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.680 Episode thirteen also featured someone who listeners to Shandy's story 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.440 wouldn't know well, forensic scientist Kirsty Wright. She examined why 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.160 the DNA samples from Shandy's crime scene and John Perros's 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:25.040 car yielded no useful evidence for John's trial. Kirsty's work 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.480 led to stunning revelations in the podcast that Queensland's entire 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.600 DNA processing system was deeply flawed. David Helvagian told the 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.640 court it all added up to a strong insinuation in 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.400 the episode that the coroner was right and the jury 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.640 was wrong, and he said it was all made worse 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.600 by the fact The Australian is a high quality publication. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:54.720 This is an investigative true crime podcast with experience, credibility, expertise. 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.040 It's not a headline or a two column piece. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.440 Helvagian also said Pisode thirteen presented itself as the final 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:04.920 conclusion that Peros did it. 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:10.400 Episode thirteen so leads to certainty that it causes serious harm. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.480 How can it otherwise when you have such a credible 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:18.200 publication interviewing the investigative police officer, the mother of the victim, 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.000 the sister of the victim, a DNA expert, a criminal 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.600 lawyer who says it's bad evidence. Those will point In 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.240 my respectful submission to the end of the story. 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.920 Justice Peter Applegarth has reserved his decision and will be back, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.360 possibly at the end of August, but more likely in 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.320 September to let John Perros and the defendants know their fate. 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.400 Thanks for joining us on the front and don't forget 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.080 to join ours. Subscribers at Beaustralian dot com dot au