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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday, October twenty four, twenty twenty five. The Australian

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Speaker 1: Defense Force faces a critical gap in missile defense capability

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Speaker 1: after the government failed to heed the advice of its

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Speaker 1: own Defense Strategic Review. That's the morning from one of

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Speaker 1: that reports, authors, Professor Peter Dean, who says China's massively

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Speaker 1: expanding its ability to attack northern Australia with missiles and aircraft.

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Speaker 1: That's an exclusive live now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au. Prince William and King Charles clearly consider Prince Andrew,

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Speaker 1: formerly known as the Duke of York, an existential threat

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Speaker 1: to the crown. There's raging pressure in the United Kingdom

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Speaker 1: for Andrew to be booted from the royal estate and

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Speaker 1: stripped of his status as a prince. To the memoir

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Speaker 1: by his principal accuser, the late Virginia Roberts Guffrey and

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Speaker 1: Andrew's insistence he's done nothing wrong. This episode discusses suicide

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Speaker 1: and sexual abuse. Lifeline is on thirteen eleven fourteen and

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Speaker 1: you can call one eight hundred respect anytime they used

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Speaker 1: to call him Randy Andy, his Royal Highness, Prince Andrew,

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Speaker 1: Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron killy Lee.

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Speaker 1: Now there's a powerful move for Prince Andrew to become

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Speaker 1: simply Andrew Windsor the playboy pantsman. Prince second son of

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Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth, brother to King Charles, has already agreed to

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Speaker 1: stop calling himself the Duke of York or his Royal

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Speaker 1: Highness at the insistence of the King and Prince William,

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Speaker 1: but that might not be enough to mollify a furious

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Speaker 1: British public. Prime Minister sekir Stamer has backed calls by

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Speaker 1: British MPs for an inquiry into how Andrew has lived

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Speaker 1: for three decades on the Royal estate at Windsor, paying

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Speaker 1: only a peppercorn rent for his palatial home, Royal Lodge.

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Speaker 1: Andrew's lavish globe trotting past as a British trade envoy,

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Speaker 1: the behavior that got him the nickname Air Miles Andy

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Speaker 1: back in the nineteen nineties has culminated in allegations he

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Speaker 1: was connected to figures believed by British security services to

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Speaker 1: be spying for China, and the story that started at

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Speaker 1: all the accusations of underage sex as part of the

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking operation of the late financier Jeffrey Epstein has

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Speaker 1: exploded back into prominence with the posthumous publication of his

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Speaker 1: accuser's memoir. Caroline Overington is the Australian's literary editor and

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Speaker 1: she's joining me to talk about Noble Girl, the book

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Speaker 1: by Virginia Roberts Giuffrey. Caroline, you've read it. It's only

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Speaker 1: been out for a day. You must have ripped through it.

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Speaker 1: What did you think as a piece of literature.

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Speaker 2: It's compelling. She has a ghost writer, and that ghostwriter

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Speaker 2: came out to Australia to work with her on the book.

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Speaker 2: It would seem to me that they had intense, long,

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Speaker 2: passionate and powerful conversations which are now part of the

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Speaker 2: book because you couldn't get this level of detail without

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Speaker 2: being prepared to really crack open your history, your heart,

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Speaker 2: your soul.

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Speaker 1: I think most people know one thing about Virginia Gufrey,

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Speaker 1: which is that she is the woman who accused Prince

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Speaker 1: Andrew of having sex with her when she was just

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Speaker 1: seventeen years old. In the book, she goes into a

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Speaker 1: little bit more detail about Prince Andrew. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: that first. How does she describe her encounters with him?

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Speaker 2: She was already by then one of the girls that

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Speaker 2: was hanging around Jeffrey Epstein, so we now all know

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Speaker 2: was a pedophile, sex obsessed. When the FBI and others

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Speaker 2: raided his mansion in Palm Beach, they found literally thousands

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Speaker 2: and thousands of photographs of underage girls and very young

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Speaker 2: women in states of undress, I think from memory in

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Speaker 2: the book two rubbish bins full of sex toys. He

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Speaker 2: was obsessed with sex. All of the halls of the

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Speaker 2: mansion were decorated with photographs of women in sexual positions,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Virginia was already one of the

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Speaker 2: girls on his roster, if you will. She had been

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Speaker 2: plucked off, not off the street, but out of her

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Speaker 2: workplace by Gislaine Maxwell to service him, and as part

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Speaker 2: of that, one of her roles was to also entertain

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Speaker 2: wealthy men, and Prince Andrew, it would seem from the

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Speaker 2: testimony in this book, was one of those. She says

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Speaker 2: she met him and had sex with him on three

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Speaker 2: separate occasions, and she was seventeen at the time. On

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Speaker 2: each occasion, she describes in some detail what it was

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Speaker 2: like to meet him. I was particularly touched, or maybe

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Speaker 2: even readers will be traumatized to hear about the first

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Speaker 2: meeting because she was so excited. Gislaine had said to her,

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Speaker 2: you're going to meet a prince today. Wake up, sleepyhead,

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Speaker 2: you're going to meet a prince today, and had picked

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Speaker 2: out some quite sophisticated outfits for her to wear. But

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Speaker 2: because Virginia was such a young girl, she wanted to

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Speaker 2: pick her own clothes. And you've seen that famous photo

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Speaker 2: of her standing there in the sparkly jeans and the

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Speaker 2: top the spark jeans. I didn't know this, but apparently

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Speaker 2: it's an interlocking horse pattern, and she thought that would

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Speaker 2: be something just like her idol, Christina Aguilera would wear.

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Speaker 2: So that's why she was wearing those jeans and not

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Speaker 2: something more sophisticated. She thought, no, I want to be

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Speaker 2: cool when I meet the prince. And she had a

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Speaker 2: little Kodak snap camera, and thanks goodness she did, because

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Speaker 2: you and I and people our age will remember that

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Speaker 2: when you took your film in to be developed, they

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Speaker 2: stamped the back with the date, and so we know

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Speaker 2: exactly how old she was when that photo was taken.

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Speaker 1: I've written an extrap from the book where she describes

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Speaker 1: working in the spa at Mara Lago, Donald Trump's resort

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Speaker 1: in Florida, when gilln Maxwell came in and sort of

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Speaker 1: sported her. She was only a receptionist at the spa,

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Speaker 1: but she had a dream of being a massus. Gillen

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Speaker 1: implied that she could train her, that she could be

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Speaker 1: a private masseuse, and then before she knew it, she

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Speaker 1: was at Jeffrey Epstein's house. He was completely naked, and

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Speaker 1: that was her first encounter with him. Ostensibly there to

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Speaker 1: give him a massage. Of course, that's not what unfolded.

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Speaker 3: My dad brought me over and he shakes hand with Gillan,

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Speaker 3: who promises that she'll take good care of me and

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Speaker 3: she will have someone drive me home.

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Speaker 1: This is Virginia Roberts Giffrey interviewed for the Lifetime Channel's

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Speaker 1: documentary series Surviving Jeffrey Epstein in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: She led me up a staircase and we made a

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Speaker 3: rate into Jeffrey's room and Jeffrey lane naked on the

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Speaker 3: massage table. Jeffrey lifts his head up, looks at Gilen

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Speaker 3: Gilln looks at him, and I call it the Cheshire

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Speaker 3: patgrind because his faces weren't like this, and it was

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Speaker 3: like a night of approval. It turns very sexual and

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Speaker 3: it was abuse straight away from both of them. I

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Speaker 3: got paid two hundred dollars and the butler drove me home.

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Speaker 1: She really depicts Gilln Maxwell also as a villain, or

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Speaker 1: maybe the primary villain in this book, doesn't she.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't go so far as to say the primary villain,

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Speaker 2: but she is in prison, so of course prosecutors and

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Speaker 2: the courts agree with you that she was a serious

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Speaker 2: player and the abuse. The important thing to remember, I

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Speaker 2: think is there's a lot of confusion about Virginia's story.

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Speaker 2: How did she end up in that situation? Why didn't

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Speaker 2: she leave? But what is key is that all of

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Speaker 2: these girls were broken. She had been sexually assaulted as

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Speaker 2: a child, and many of the other girls had too,

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Speaker 2: and so she had spent some time in foster care.

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Speaker 2: She had spent some time in what we call juvi

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Speaker 2: in delinquent care. All of these girls were desperate in

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Speaker 2: a way for affection, and people who Epstein surrounded himself

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Speaker 2: with were able to pray on that. So when she

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Speaker 2: was working at mar Lago as a young receptionist hoping

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Speaker 2: to become a messuse, she's easy pickings because somebody comes

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Speaker 2: along and says, oh, well, I know a really wealthy man.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's really into my massage. Why don't you

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Speaker 2: come to his house. She arrives there. Now some people

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Speaker 2: might think, okay, well, she goes into the massage room.

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Speaker 2: She starts to give him a massage. Then he turns

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Speaker 2: over and it's a parent that he's completely naked and

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Speaker 2: expecting to have sex with her. Why don't you just

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Speaker 2: run away? That's the response of a normal, healthy individual,

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Speaker 2: But it's not the response of a broken girl. A

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Speaker 2: broken girl might think, Oh, right, this is what I deserve,

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Speaker 2: this is who I am, this is what is expected

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Speaker 2: of me. I'm not worth much, and then go ahead

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Speaker 2: and do it. That's what I think is really valuable

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Speaker 2: about this book, how it explains what it's like to

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Speaker 2: live like that.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the big revelations and understandings

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Speaker 1: that society has come to in the past maybe ten

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Speaker 1: or twenty years, that often victims of pedophilia or sexual

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Speaker 1: assault or domestic violence are re victimized because they find

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Speaker 1: themselves in dangerous situations, they have difficulty extracting themselves from trouble.

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Speaker 1: They are often drawn to people who are dangerous and

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Speaker 1: who want to harm them, and often they don't have

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Speaker 1: a figure in their lives who can protect them. One

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Speaker 1: of the heartbreaking things about that first encounter with Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein is that her father drives her to his house

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Speaker 1: and then Glenn Maxwell very effectively gets rid of the dad.

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Speaker 1: You know, they knew what they were doing. They were

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Speaker 1: practiced predators these people. Of course, Gilen Maxwell has always

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Speaker 1: denied any wrongdoing. But Virginia Giuffrey wrote this book and

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Speaker 1: then took her own life. When you're reading it, do

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Speaker 1: you have a sense of her almost speaking from beyond

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Speaker 1: the grave, like almost that she knew that she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be around for long.

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Speaker 2: When I was reading it, I kept thinking to myself

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Speaker 2: because parts of it are so traumatic. They kept thinking

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Speaker 2: to myself, Oh, it's okay, it's okay, She's going to

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Speaker 2: be fine. But of course she's not fine. She's no

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Speaker 2: longer with us. One of the things that happens in

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Speaker 2: the book is they send her to Thailand, where massage

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Speaker 2: is a proper profession, and there are courses that you

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Speaker 2: can do at very glamorous locations where you can be

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Speaker 2: taught to be a better massage therapist. While she's there,

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Speaker 2: she meets an Australian man and he is the most

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Speaker 2: Australian character you've ever heard in your life. He's just terrific,

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Speaker 2: and she latches onto him with wild haste. They're married

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Speaker 2: within ten days, within ten days of meeting. She stays

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Speaker 2: with him for twenty years and they have three children together.

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Speaker 2: And when her daughter is born, she starts to think

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Speaker 2: about life or the world for young girls, and that's

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Speaker 2: when she starts to speak out about what happened to

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Speaker 2: her when she was very young. I got the sense

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Speaker 2: that she was reasonably safe while she felt she was

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Speaker 2: a mom and a wife and she was doing good works.

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Speaker 2: When the marriage failed and there were issues about customer,

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Speaker 2: she began to fall apart. And that's not an uncommon trajectory.

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Speaker 2: I should say that I have seen a bit of

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Speaker 2: reporting similar to Jeffrey Epstein. Is it possible that she

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Speaker 2: didn't take her own life?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 2: Her family says she did, and the publisher says she did,

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Speaker 2: and it is quite clear that she had a very

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Speaker 2: troubled relationship with herself. But there are people who, like

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein, say, well, isn't it interesting that yet another

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Speaker 2: person in the Epstein Files story connected to all of

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Speaker 2: these famous and wealthy characters, Like we know that Bill

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Speaker 2: Gates was on that plane, we know that Bill Clinton

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Speaker 2: was on that plane. We know that all kinds of

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Speaker 2: celebrities from Hollywood visited that island.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but not necessarily that they were abuses, just that

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Speaker 1: they were correct in this Epstein circle.

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Speaker 2: In this orbit, in this orbit of depravity, and the

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Speaker 2: people who are speaking out keep being found dead. And

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Speaker 2: I think we live in a time of conspiracyist theory,

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Speaker 2: no question, and these ideas can take flight on the

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Speaker 2: Internet without there being any basis. But I do think

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Speaker 2: it's interesting that some people are anxious about the fact

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Speaker 2: that she took her own life. What was it that

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Speaker 2: prompted that?

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Speaker 1: Carolyn. Let's talk about Prince Andrew. He was forty one

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Speaker 1: when she was seventeen years old at the time that

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Speaker 1: she says they had sex. Of course, he's denied any wrongdoing.

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Speaker 1: He has gradually been stripped off his privileges. The Queen

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Speaker 1: had to go at it when He first embarrassed himself

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Speaker 1: with an interview with the UK program Newsnight a few

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Speaker 1: years ago.

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Speaker 4: I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady, none whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: I was at home with the children and I'd taken

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Speaker 4: Betrice to a pizza express in working for a party.

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Speaker 4: I have no recollection of that photograph ever being taken.

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Speaker 2: You think it is you next to her in the photo?

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's definitely me. That's a picture of me. It's

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Speaker 4: not a picture of I don't believe it's a picture

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Speaker 4: of me in London because when I go out to

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Speaker 4: when I go out in London, I wear a suit

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Speaker 4: and a tie. We never had any sort of sexual

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Speaker 4: contact whatever.

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Speaker 1: And now the humiliation is almost complete. Prince Charles has

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Speaker 1: ordered him to stop using the title Duke of York

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Speaker 1: and his Royal Highness, even though those titles haven't actually

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Speaker 1: been taken away. It's clear now that Charles, the King

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Speaker 1: and Prince William regard Andrew and this story as an

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Speaker 1: existential threat to the monarchy. I would say, what's your

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Speaker 1: instinct about what will happen now to Andrew? Do you

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Speaker 1: think he'll be kicked out of Royal Lodge where he's

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Speaker 1: lived for free for a very long time, maybe have

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Speaker 1: to leave the UK altogether, or is this kind of

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Speaker 1: the end of it.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is fair to say that they probably

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Speaker 2: do see him as a to the monarchy, but I

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Speaker 2: think it's more than that. I think that anybody who

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Speaker 2: reads this account will be appalled at a human level,

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Speaker 2: and it could well be that William, who's a young

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Speaker 2: father himself and the father of a girl himself, may

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Speaker 2: well regard this as beyond the pale, even for your uncle.

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Speaker 2: Another question I think it's probably worth asking is why

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Speaker 2: does the brother of the king have such special privileges anyway?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a matter for the British public, obviously,

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Speaker 2: but I guess it makes sense when Andrew was in

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Speaker 2: line for succession, But he's so far down the line

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Speaker 2: now because you have the king, and then you have William,

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Speaker 2: and then you have William's children, boys and girls, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: so you have all of these other people cascading down

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Speaker 2: before you get to Andrew. I don't think it would

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Speaker 2: do much harm to the monarchy to chop him. It

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Speaker 2: might do a lot of harm to keep him, and

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Speaker 2: that may be the calculation they're making. But I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: rule out a calculation made purely on humanitarian as well

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Speaker 2: that at a certain point you look around at your

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Speaker 2: dodgy uncle and you just think, oh, yeah, nah coming up.

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Speaker 1: How much of a risk did the publisher take in

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Speaker 1: green lighting this book? Even though he has paid twelve

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Speaker 1: million pounds to Virginia Giufray in an out of court settlement,

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Speaker 1: although he's always denied any wrongdoing, this was still a

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Speaker 1: risky book for Penguin to publish, wasn't it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is full of allegations about people, including Virginia Gupray's

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Speaker 1: own father, who are denying having done anything wrong. What

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Speaker 1: do you think the calculus was there for Penguin? This

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Speaker 1: could have flopped for them or could have gone catastrophically wrong.

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Speaker 2: Part of me wants to think that they thought it

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Speaker 2: was an important book to publish. I think it was

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Speaker 2: an important book to publish, so I can accept that

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Speaker 2: not everybody will want to read it, but I do

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Speaker 2: think it's a very valuable resource, particularly when we're thinking

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Speaker 2: about what it means to live in the world as

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Speaker 2: a survivor of sexual abuse, because that's such a common

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Speaker 2: thing for women to you know, many women don't get

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Speaker 2: to adulthood without having some sort of sexual activity that

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Speaker 2: they don't want forced upon them. So it's valuable from

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Speaker 2: that point of view. I don't think that these allegations

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Speaker 2: could be published against Australians in Australia. I really don't.

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Speaker 2: I think if you said the kind of things that

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Speaker 2: are being said about some of the characters in this

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Speaker 2: book in this country, you would be sued for defamation

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Speaker 2: and the book would be pulped. The law is slightly

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Speaker 2: different in the US, where they have freedom of the

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Speaker 2: press and freedom of speech enshrined in the constitution. We don't,

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Speaker 2: and so there's simply no way you could publish a

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Speaker 2: book like this in Australia.

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Speaker 1: The memoir Nobody's Girl is available now. Caroline Overington is

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Speaker 1: The Australian's literary editor, part of our Brilliant New Culture section.

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Speaker 1: Check out her work at the Australian dot Com dot

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Speaker 1: a u slash culture