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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to part two of my chat with Cassie Sainsbury.

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Speaker 1: You might know her as Cocaine Cassie. Cassie spent three

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Speaker 1: years in what I would describe as a living hell

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Speaker 1: after being caught trafficking cocaine out of Bogatar Port in Columbia.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back for part two.

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Speaker 2: You.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I want to say up front, I'm sorry I

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Speaker 1: making you relive these relieve these things. But I think

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Speaker 1: that people when they do hear your story, will get

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Speaker 1: a better understanding of who you are, what you went through,

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Speaker 1: and might in a strange, bizarre soor the way find

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Speaker 1: the inspiration because I find that fascinating human spirit. How

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Speaker 1: you can some of those situations that you found yourself

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Speaker 1: in prison, I don't know how you got up the

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Speaker 1: next day or I'm sure, yeah, there were times when

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Speaker 1: you didn't think you would survive. So I apologize up

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Speaker 1: front dragging you back through it.

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Speaker 3: So that's okay, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about we left in part

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Speaker 1: one talking about the detention center, which I'm still scratching

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Speaker 1: my head how a blonde female ends up in a

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Speaker 1: South American detention center.

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Speaker 2: Full of full of miles.

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Speaker 1: You survived that, but that was only the start of you'll,

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Speaker 1: let's call it your journey, because then you ended up

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Speaker 1: in prison. Tell us about your first impressions of prison.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk about life in prison. So I'll hand

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Speaker 1: it over this year.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So I was taken to edbuin Pastor roughly six

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning on a Monday, And when we're

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Speaker 3: pulling up, all I can see is these massive blue

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Speaker 3: doors and I couldn't see anything really far beyond that

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Speaker 3: at that point, and I was like, oh, okay, this

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Speaker 3: is not what I expected. Not that I knew what

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Speaker 3: I was expecting, but it wasn't what I expected. And obviously,

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Speaker 3: again the police went through the remaining stuff that I

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Speaker 3: had and further took out more stuff just because they could.

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Speaker 3: There was actually no real reason for them to keep

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Speaker 3: doing it. And when I was taken to enter through

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Speaker 3: the blue door, there was a small little blue door

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Speaker 3: on the side, and I basically got pushed through it

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Speaker 3: and I fell on the floor and I look up

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Speaker 3: and I looked to my left and there was these

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Speaker 3: buildings with clothes all hanging out the sides of them,

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Speaker 3: like thousands of pieces of clothing, and I just remember

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Speaker 3: it was a very peculiar thing to see, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, well, why are these clothes out there? And

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Speaker 3: it just came across as very dirty, very dirty. Instantly,

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Speaker 3: I had a guard who just did not like me

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Speaker 3: at all, pushed me around, was very very harsh physically

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Speaker 3: with me, considering it's not that I could really run

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Speaker 3: anywhere or do anything or even space or backchat to her.

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Speaker 3: She was actually very very mean. I think that's the

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Speaker 3: only word to put it. It was she was mean,

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Speaker 3: and walking through I saw all these these guards blue

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Speaker 3: blue military type uniform and then there was these other

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Speaker 3: people walking around with these coffee color type uniforms, and

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh, okay, who are those people? And it's

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Speaker 3: really interesting, obviously, looking back on it, when I walk

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Speaker 3: in there, I'm not really processing anything that's going on.

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Speaker 3: You're kind of it's like watching something's happening to you,

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Speaker 3: but you're not really a part of it. You're not

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Speaker 3: there feeling like you're living that moment at all, because

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Speaker 3: it is the moment you step through that blue door,

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Speaker 3: your life stops. That's it. It's it pauses. And so

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Speaker 3: when I get taken in, she obviously be processed, obviously

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Speaker 3: again getting asked questions if I had any tattoos, if

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Speaker 3: I was married, had kids, This guard also that I had.

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Speaker 3: She spoke very little English. She did try to speak

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Speaker 3: to me, and she was trying to be a little

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Speaker 3: bit warming, kind of be like it's okay, it's fine,

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Speaker 3: it's okay. You know, everything will be okay. And in

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Speaker 3: my head, I'm like, I'm in prison, how can it

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Speaker 3: be okay? You live here? Like why is this okay? Like,

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Speaker 3: how can you say that to me right now? And

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Speaker 3: but she was trying to do them. I guess a

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Speaker 3: nice thing could have treated me like absolute crap there,

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Speaker 3: and she didn't, And so I was processed and then

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Speaker 3: I was put into this little room and she's like, stinky,

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Speaker 3: you know, you stink? And in my head I was like, well,

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Speaker 3: what do you think? Do you really think I was

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Speaker 3: gonna strip down naked in front of a bunch of

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Speaker 3: men and showers like because.

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Speaker 2: You'd come from your detention, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And not that I had any clothes to change into either,

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Speaker 3: because I'd basically been left with nothing, and I knew

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Speaker 3: I stank like it'd been well three or four days

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Speaker 3: no shower. I can positively tell you that I think

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Speaker 3: I held on to urine like two days. At one

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Speaker 3: point it actually physically hurt. So I'm pointing to this

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Speaker 3: little little what is it called over there, It's called

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Speaker 3: a hula, So it's like this little cagy room and

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Speaker 3: she goes shower, and there was in the on the

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Speaker 3: left hand side, there was a little shower in the open,

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Speaker 3: and then a toilet in the open, And in my

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Speaker 3: head I was kind of like, well, this is my

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Speaker 3: life now, going from being such an introvert. I don't

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Speaker 3: like my body. I don't like showing off my body.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of those people that would wear over

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Speaker 3: size baggy stuff and then basically having to be naked

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Speaker 3: in front of everyone. So the shower, I was over

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Speaker 3: there freezing cold ice water. Naturally, coming from Australia, we

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Speaker 3: have a luxury of very nice water. So this was

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Speaker 3: the first shower that I had to have with freezing

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Speaker 3: cold water, and so obviously strip off and I almost

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Speaker 3: showered it as if I was a little cat.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: I was like put my foot in and it burnt

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Speaker 3: that it was so cold, and so I not even

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Speaker 3: a minute. I don't think I got water where I

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Speaker 3: had to get water, and that was it. I was

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Speaker 3: out and the guard had left some clothes. Oh I

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Speaker 3: laugh at this now, but I wasn't in a good

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Speaker 3: mood at the time. I had left some clothes on

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Speaker 3: the sitting bench there for me. Where Now I've picked

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Speaker 3: it up and it was like this size four top.

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Speaker 3: Now I was I was quite big, so I would

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Speaker 3: have been like a size fourteen, size sixteen, so I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't even about it what like, So I had to

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Speaker 3: put my dirty clothes back on, put my jenny clothes

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Speaker 3: back on, and so the guys come back in, and

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Speaker 3: she looked really upset with me, and she's like clean, clean,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, they don't fit me, like I'm

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Speaker 3: not walking around and stuff that doesn't fit me. So

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Speaker 3: and she just avoided me after that because I stank,

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Speaker 3: and I really did stink. And then bit by bit

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Speaker 3: more people were starting to be processed, and probably within

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Speaker 3: about the hour or two, this room was full, and

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Speaker 3: these women just kept looking at me. A couple tried

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Speaker 3: to talk to me, but I couldn't really say anything

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Speaker 3: else no no, no Spanish, no Spanish, trying to be

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Speaker 3: like smiling and not looking mean at anyone, because that

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Speaker 3: also was I have quite a expressional face, so if

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Speaker 3: I don't like someone, it's noticeable straight away, so that

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Speaker 3: I was trying to be overcought, just of not making

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Speaker 3: the wrong face at anyone, not making eye contact because

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Speaker 3: we don't make eye contact in prison, all those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things, and then still trying to be polite.

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Speaker 1: And it was, yeah, look, it's if it wasn't so

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Speaker 1: heavy and so serious, it's almost like a comedy, like

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Speaker 1: you I think, what's that movie Bridget Jones Diary when

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Speaker 1: she goes in in the tie prison or whatever and

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Speaker 1: just totally inappropriate and just not understanding it. It's and look,

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Speaker 1: we're not laughing at it, we're not laughing at the situation.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes you just got to get what the help.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think now I can laugh at things

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Speaker 3: because it it was hell going throughout that time, but

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Speaker 3: now I kind of go, it's almost just so it's

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Speaker 3: a real twisted humor towards it, because it's so funny

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Speaker 3: that you just don't think it would happen. You go, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: you're in those situations you know you won't find something

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Speaker 3: funny or and there are moments where you do laugh

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Speaker 3: in prison. You do have okay days where you feel

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Speaker 3: like a normal human being. And I think, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: can look back at everything now and actually laugh at

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Speaker 3: parts that probably were not that great at the time.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, as I said, it's really twisted humor because

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Speaker 3: if I'm waiting to be actually introduced into the prison

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Speaker 3: and then there's just really random things that happen, and

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Speaker 3: you go.

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Speaker 1: Really like, can it get can it get any worse?

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Speaker 1: They've given me clothes, I can't can't fit into them.

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Speaker 1: What was your impression of the other prisoners, were they like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you get all sorts in prisons, obviously, but you get

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Speaker 1: the people that I The sense I get of a

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Speaker 1: prison is that everyone's a potential threat, even if they're

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Speaker 1: being nice to here, and it's hard to sort of

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Speaker 1: navigate your way through that.

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Speaker 3: I think it's worse if they're nice to you, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, because you're always waiting for the other coin

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Speaker 3: to flip. I think the people that were actually walking

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Speaker 3: in with me, that had been processed with me, they

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Speaker 3: it's going to sound very judging, but almost poor. They

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Speaker 3: looked poor. They looked like they'd just been pulled off

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Speaker 3: the street for something. And it was really sad because

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Speaker 3: and I don't know how this started in such a time,

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Speaker 3: Like at the very beginning of my process going through it,

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Speaker 3: I felt bad for these women. Lots of them are crying,

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Speaker 3: I presumed most of them. Obviously they're families over there,

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Speaker 3: they're very tight knit families. They all have kids young,

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Speaker 3: and I just looked at these women and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 3: you poor people, Like I don't know what you did,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not anyone to judge because I'm here too,

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Speaker 3: but I just felt sad for these people because nobody

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Speaker 3: wants to be there. Nobody wants to be there. There

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Speaker 3: was a couple of scary looking people, obviously, some people

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Speaker 3: that you just got this instant feeling that you you

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Speaker 3: have to be nice to them, but stay away from them,

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Speaker 3: type like if I'm not nice to you, it's going

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Speaker 3: to bite me in the bum a little bit later. So,

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Speaker 3: and I, in my head, prison was kind of like

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Speaker 3: we're all in the same building, and we just all

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Speaker 3: have our own little selse, kind of like what you

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Speaker 3: see in the movies. Ah, obviously, because we don't.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm laughing now at you, like it just seems

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Speaker 1: too ridiculous. You're so naive when you've got in there,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, okay, we can all get on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I've only ever seen cell blocks, obviously in movies or something.

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Speaker 3: And in my head, that's what I was walking into.

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Speaker 3: Didn't matter what country I was in. That was kind

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Speaker 3: of what was waiting for me, even though I'd just

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Speaker 3: gone through a mini hell in a holding cell. But

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Speaker 3: I kind of justified that by saying, but that's not

218
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Speaker 3: a prison, that was just a holding cell. So when

219
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 3: I'm actually before going into prison, I am strip searched

220
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 3: again by mail guards, and particularly I got one who

221
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 3: obviously again definitely went way past acceptable behavior, man handling, fondling, touching,

222
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 3: feeling being very almost dominating in the sense of, you know,

223
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Speaker 3: excuse a French, but you know you're a piece of

224
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Speaker 3: shit kind of that's and I think in that moment,

225
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 3: I've kind of gone how many times do I have

226
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,040
Speaker 3: to keep going through this? And I think the frustraate

227
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 3: and the frustrations kind of stuck in that moment as well,

228
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 3: because I thought, well, how many times do I have

229
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Speaker 3: to be searched? If each time I get searched, I've

230
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 3: got nothing, why do you think it's going to change.

231
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 3: Like I don't have any connections to get anything in here,

232
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 3: I don't speak to anyone. And it was almost every

233
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 3: time I got searched, it just escalated a little bit.

234
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 3: More and more got dressed, picked up, like my two

235
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 3: two three pieces of items that I was given by

236
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 3: the guard because she didn't take them away from me,

237
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 3: maybe with the potential hope that I would squeeze myself

238
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,200
Speaker 3: into them. One day, I was finally walked through into

239
00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 3: the prism and it's still wasn't what I sek efected.

240
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 3: So in my head, obviously I expected to see the

241
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,120
Speaker 3: prison block. That's what I expected. And I've walked through

242
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 3: this door and the first thing I see is there's

243
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 3: a patch of grass on my left hand side. Doors

244
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 3: all around me and then the corridor, and I've be like, oh, okay.

245
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 3: In the meantime, I can smell bread, like fresh bread.

246
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 3: I was like, this is really weird. So we walked

247
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 3: through and then I see these same people with the

248
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 3: the coffee colored uniforms walking around as well, and I'm

249
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 3: still still trying to figure out if they're guards, if

250
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 3: they're volunteer workers, if they're inmates, and people still talking

251
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 3: at me, and it was just way over my head.

252
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Speaker 3: I'm just kind of looking at them and like processing, and.

253
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Speaker 2: You're not you're not understanding the language of all ways.

254
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 1: No, no other than a couple of couple of words,

255
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 1: you had nothing at.

256
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 3: That point, I forg even completely blanked that. You know, yes,

257
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 3: is see, because if I was my head, my brain

258
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 3: was under such dress that I wasn't even even if

259
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 3: I think I'd just been a little bit I guess

260
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 3: understood a little bit of Spanish. I don't think I

261
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 3: would have been able to, because it was just so

262
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 3: much emotional emotional stress that I just couldn't comprehend anything.

263
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 3: And I think that's why I went in there, so

264
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:39,640
Speaker 3: in like ditsy kind of oh, kind of oh okay,

265
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 3: wound up in prison. This is what it is. So

266
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 3: walking through the corridor, it's when I come into the prison,

267
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 3: essentially the actual where the yards start. So the yards

268
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 3: they are broken up into what they call nine patios.

269
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 3: So when you first just walked through the corridor, you've

270
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:07,160
Speaker 3: got Patio five, Patio four, Patio three, Patio two. Then

271
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 3: in the middle there is there's a building. On your left,

272
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 3: I'm just visualizing it. Just past that, there's like this

273
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: stage and I remember looking at it going okay. Then

274
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 3: there was this church, and I'm really abused. At this point,

275
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, this is not what I expected. And

276
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 3: then passing that on my right hand side there is

277
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 3: a park with a playground with kids on it, like

278
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 3: little kids, And I just first thought was why the

279
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,919
Speaker 3: little kids in prison, Like what did they do something?

280
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 3: Because this is not normal. This is not normal at all.

281
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 3: And I knew later on i'd probably understand it, but

282
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,560
Speaker 3: that at that point it was mind blowing that there's

283
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,280
Speaker 3: a stage, there's a church, there's there's a playground, and

284
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 3: I was mind blowing. Definitely was not what I imagined.

285
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 3: Then you walk a little further down this corridor, because

286
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 3: it seems like a corridor that just keeps on giving.

287
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 3: There's Patio nine, Patio eight on the other side, and

288
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 3: then right at the very end there's Patio one. Patio

289
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,080
Speaker 3: one is where all the newcomers go. It is the

290
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 3: most there's no construction to this patio at all. Is

291
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 3: probably the oldest part of the prison, so they use

292
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 3: old tin sheds as the actual cells, and you're just

293
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,119
Speaker 3: all locked up in there together. No mattresses, no, no nothing.

294
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 3: You just left to basically sleep on the floor. So

295
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 3: I get in there and I see this phones on

296
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 3: the wall. Oh they've got phones here? How do the

297
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 3: phones work? And again, as I said, I can laugh

298
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 3: about it now, but at that time, it was chaotic

299
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 3: in my head because I wanted to understand everything that

300
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 3: was being said, but I just wasn't comprehending anything. And

301
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 3: then we're locked up in this tin chad, which was

302
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,159
Speaker 3: when I first come across Lovely lady with some nasty

303
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,919
Speaker 3: cuts in her face, lots of scars, she had a

304
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 3: metal bar through her leg. And I walk in and

305
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 3: it was almost like this instant. She looked at me.

306
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 3: I looked at her, and I looked straight at the

307
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,320
Speaker 3: ground because I knew I just sat part of me knew.

308
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,679
Speaker 3: I knew she was going to be a nightmare for me.

309
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 3: And we were kept in there and they did a

310
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 3: roll call, and probably about thirty minutes later, we were released.

311
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 3: And I've walked out into the little the little yard

312
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 3: that they have within the patio, and a lady, an

313
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 3: older lady, comes up to me and goes, oh, you're Gringer.

314
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 3: Let's see. Yes, yes, a phone family, familiar family like

315
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 3: uh no, no, no, have I got no money? And

316
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 3: I remember speaking to her so quickly that we must

317
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 3: have been like a mirror to each other when we were speaking,

318
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 3: because she looked at me so confused, and so then

319
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 3: as much as I tried to speak slower, I wasn't

320
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 3: actually speaking slower. I think I was getting more frustrated

321
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 3: that she didn't understand me. So the lovely lady, she

322
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 3: actually lent me a phone card and she helped me

323
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 3: call someone from my family, and that's so I decided

324
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 3: to call my sister. Now it would have been maybe

325
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 3: twelve one o'clock in the morning here in Australia and

326
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 3: call and she's like hello, Hello, And then something was

327
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 3: said in Spanish on the phone and I and it

328
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 3: blocked out what she was saying, and so I was like,

329
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: I'm in prison, I need a lawyer. I'm gonna die.

330
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 3: These people are scary, and then it it was gone.

331
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: Phone calls over Is that the first communication you had

332
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:35,479
Speaker 1: with your family?

333
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 2: Oh?

334
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 3: Yes, and I so that little Spanish voice was saying

335
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 3: that there was thirty seconds of the call, so over there.

336
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 3: Communication nearly didn't exist for me because the phone cards,

337
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 3: because it was so expensive to call Australia. Five thousand

338
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 3: pays so, which was the most you could get on

339
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 3: a phone card, would last me like a minute. And

340
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 3: obviously I didn't have displace all money to keep buying

341
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: phone cards. So it was it was that was the

342
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: first time I spoke to someone since being obviously process

343
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 3: and entered in prison. Actually it was the first time

344
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,959
Speaker 3: I'd spoken I'd managed to speak to my family since

345
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 3: being charged.

346
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: So that would have been a traumatic, traumatic call for

347
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: enda and then she.

348
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: Still brings it up to today like that's the only

349
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: thing you could have said that You're going to.

350
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: Die had that play out with Missus slip cheeks. It

351
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: was a conflict there. Did you avoid conflict?

352
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: I avoided her as much as I could, but constantly

353
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: finding myself in front of her, and we did have

354
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 3: a lot of conflicts. So she was actually a band's leader,

355
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: a gang leader of a group of women in there

356
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 3: who when you're there on your first night, they go

357
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,160
Speaker 3: through your stuff and they steal what they want. And

358
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 3: I was sexually assaulted by one of her, one of

359
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: her gangs that first night, and it kind of set

360
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 3: the pace for me there because I just remember going,

361
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 3: how can women do this to other women? I think

362
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 3: you expect it sounds really bad, you expect it from

363
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 3: a man, but I didn't expect it from a woman.

364
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 3: And so to go through that on my first night

365
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: in there, it was I went into a very dark

366
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: place and I couldn't tell anyone because I couldn't be

367
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 3: a snitch. So I know people were aware of what

368
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 3: happened to me that night, but nobody acknowledged it. And

369
00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: the next morning, obviously because they I got beat the

370
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: living crap out of me. So I was covered in bruises,

371
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 3: I couldn't walk properly, and people were like, oh, you're good.

372
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 3: What was I going to say? Like, I would have

373
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 3: made an instant enemy, more of an enemy that I

374
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 3: already had.

375
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: So I just and it wasn't in your You and

376
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: I think you made a conscious decision. You weren't going

377
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: to fight. You weren't a fight are You're not going

378
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: to fight that. You just had to manage the way

379
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: you could. You had enough sense to realize that you

380
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: couldn't report it. If you're reporting it to people, you

381
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: would have been known as a snitch and it would

382
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: have been ten times les.

383
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 3: So no, And I think one thing that I really

384
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 3: wanted to set up and keep true to myself was

385
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: I didn't want prison to change me. I refuse to

386
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 3: let the environment make me become a nasty, vindictive, cold person,

387
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: because within those places you do come across some of

388
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 3: the nicest people you could ever imagine. So right, I

389
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: couldn't obviously snitch on anyone. Everyone knew that I'd been

390
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 3: sexually sold to that night, I was then taken to

391
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: go and speak to the prison director who later decided

392
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: to move me from Patio one to Patio five, where

393
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 3: technically all the foreigners were now foreigners their means like

394
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: Mexicans or Spanish, Peru, you know, Latin, Australia. No, I

395
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: ain't know. I get in there and they're like, oh,

396
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 3: there's another Australian here, and I was like, what where

397
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, no, she was released, and I

398
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: was like, are we sure she was Australian? Still don't

399
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 3: know till this day. But and then so there was

400
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 3: a lady, she was an English teacher in the prison

401
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 3: and she was a bit of a translator for me,

402
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: which was my first grasp at actually being able to communicate,

403
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: and it was really refreshing. But I still didn't know

404
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: who I could trust. So at that point I just

405
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 3: became very quiet person. I didn't want to speak to anyone.

406
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 3: I didn't want anyone knowing why I was there, who

407
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: put me there? Anything? Again, into a Patio five. Finally

408
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: get a mattress and it's like this little paper fin

409
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 3: foam type mattress and walk in. I'm obviously because ever

410
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: I was already injured. All these people swarm down and

411
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: they just pick up mattress, pick up my little baggy

412
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: and they're gone. They took my stuff, and I remember

413
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 3: just going, I just got robbed again. And when you

414
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 3: walk into Patio five, there's this huge white white gate here,

415
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: and then there's stairs and it's four flights of stairs,

416
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: and I just remember standing there and I must have

417
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: had the most dumbfounded look on my face and going

418
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 3: did anyone else see that? Like? Is this normal? And

419
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,959
Speaker 3: then I finally get up to where I had to,

420
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: where my cell was, and my stuff was there, and

421
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, okay, well, and then I was

422
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: very fortunate. I my first cell mate. She was absolutely lovely.

423
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: She gave me some clothes as she told me that

424
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: I really stank.

425
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: Maybe she did it for her own benefits.

426
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, why I think so as well. And it was

427
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: she made a point of, you know, giving me deodorant

428
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: and soap, and and it was just, yeah, very surreal

429
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 3: to now look back, but it was that kindness there

430
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: in that precise moment that I was like, oh, not

431
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 3: everyone's bad. Not everyone in this place is bad.

432
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: I got the sense reading the book and there were yeah,

433
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: some horrible, horrible situations that you found yourself in with

434
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: the bashings, and if anyone gets a book, the picture

435
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: of the bruises on your stomach and all that will

436
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 1: give you the sense of the state of the bashings.

437
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: But those little acts of humanity sort of, yeah, I think, Okay,

438
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: there is something worth living for. There is some beauty

439
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: in this horrible world. But look, we've talked about some

440
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: of the hard times. I just want to get this

441
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: out on a quote from your book, because you found

442
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: a nice cell mate there, but it was just a

443
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: journey for you the whole time, because you got moved

444
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: around and different cell mates and different ones. But a

445
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: quote from your book, you stabbed by your crazy cell mate.

446
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: A y Jara's attack was relentless, fueled by a fury

447
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: that seemed to transcend reason. The blade dance perisoley close,

448
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: fear and adrenaline intermingled in me. The metallic tang of

449
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: blood lingered in the air. I felt the sudden surge

450
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: of pain each time the needle was pushed into my abdomen, legs,

451
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: and arms. I couldn't stop her. She was crazy and

452
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: I had no strength. I was certain that was the end.

453
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: Your words, your your book. That's a pretty heavy situation.

454
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: And just to put it in context before you talk

455
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: about it was like a knitting needle that was filed

456
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: filed down and serrated edge, and that was your cell

457
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: mate that you knew something was brewing because you're just

458
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: crazy talk us through through that situation.

459
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: So I, as some of the guards might have said,

460
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: I think I saw more of that prison than the

461
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: common inmate. I was moved around a lot for my

462
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: own security. I was put into a high security SECURITYO

463
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 3: security patio. Technically I was supposed to live on my own.

464
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: I received a cell mate who at the beginning seemed okay.

465
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 3: She seemed like she was a bit of a hypocrite.

466
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 3: She did give off that type of energy, but I

467
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: at the same time, I'm in prison. I can't judge

468
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: anyone either. We instantly didn't get along, and the more

469
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: I got to see the type of person she was,

470
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: the worse at God. And at this point I was

471
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: starting to stand up for myself, so starting to not

472
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: be such a pushover anymore. Not that I could speak

473
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: great Spanish, but I was being able to defend myself.

474
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: So this lady, in particular, she was the right hand

475
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: man to one of the current worst cartels in Columbia.

476
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: My pot luck.

477
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: That's a good one to take on. Well done.

478
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: And as soon as she realized that a lot of

479
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: people in that patio, because we were a small group

480
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 3: of people, they actually liked me, that they thought nice

481
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: things of me, that I wasn't a bad person, and

482
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: they kind of they looked after me as much as

483
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: they could. And so this lady didn't like it. She

484
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 3: liked being the center of attention. And we started getting

485
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: into a lot of arguments and she started turning everyone

486
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: against me, and I remember we had a fight. I

487
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: think it was probably one of the first physical fights

488
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: in that patio that I had, and she punched me

489
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: and the person who lived next to me in the

490
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 3: other cell, she came in and stopped what was going on.

491
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: And then later that night, which was when she attacked me,

492
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: so she knitted. She knit it. She attacked me with

493
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: a knitting needle. And I knew something was coming that

494
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: night because she just be a few hours beforehand. She

495
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: just was out of character. She wasn't acting like she

496
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: normally did, you know. She pretended to go to sleep early,

497
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: and it was just lots of little things, and I

498
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: remember the first initial feeling of that metal going through

499
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: my stomach and the shock of it, and the first

500
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: thought not because that first stab wound is what really

501
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: caught me, and it was the main trigger pain that

502
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 3: I was feeling, not the others she was doing. It

503
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 3: was she's going to kill me here, and no guards

504
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: will step into something like that and really stop it.

505
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: So I was I knew I had just I knew

506
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: that I just wasn't going to get through that, and

507
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: if I did, it would have been a miracle because

508
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: the amount of time she stabbed me, it was there

509
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: was a lot of blood, the smell of blood, and

510
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: I started losing consciousness and she just she was screaming

511
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: towards the end. She was absolutely crazy. And I do

512
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: remember the guards eventually coming in and obviously then being

513
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 3: taken out into to medical and obviously getting because they

514
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: don't do stitching, they don't do anything that little bits

515
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: of glue put into all of these little stab wounds,

516
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: and it was just nothing happened to her. They didn't

517
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,239
Speaker 3: do anything to her. It was just it happened, and

518
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: now you live with it. And then I had to

519
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: go back and still live with her kind of like, well,

520
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: round two, let me do this again, it was so

521
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: there was no order or anything in that prison at all.

522
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: It was basically the inmates were to themselves regards to themselves.

523
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: And she she was just a psycho. And she threatened

524
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: me that I was gonna be killed, I was gonna

525
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: be knocked off when I got out, that she was gonna,

526
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: you know, have my prison sentence stretched out longer. That

527
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: she threatened me with so much. And the problem was

528
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: that because of her position in such a it's what

529
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: is it called, It's called the Clandegolf, the cartel, and

530
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: she just really got that into me. And so again

531
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: felt terrified that the day that I am released, if

532
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 3: I didn't have to worry about other people, do I

533
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 3: now have to worry about this as well? Or because

534
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 3: she just didn't like.

535
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: Me, you got never giving your way through through that. Yeah,

536
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: the way you tell it and you relive it, and yeah,

537
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: you're basically talking about someone trying to stab here to

538
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: death and there's no then you've got to be put

539
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: back in the same room. And anyway, I'm glad you

540
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: too have saw about your differences. Now go to sleep,

541
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: don't worry about it like it's madness. But when you

542
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: talk about it out here. It sounds like insanity that

543
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: the environment can operate that way, But that was your world.

544
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: But one thing that when I say one thing, a

545
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: lot of things shocked me in your book, but as

546
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: a result of a punishment where and this is my

547
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: take on it. They couldn't offices or the people are

548
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be looking after you, couldn't bash you in

549
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: theory or there's potential trouble. But they did one of

550
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: the most nasty way of torturing you by taking you,

551
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: just grabbing you, taking you to place to see the dentist,

552
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: even though you didn't have problems with your teeth, hold

553
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: you down in the dentist's chair, and then have this

554
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: psychopath dentist just drilling your teeth as punishment. And what

555
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: are you going to complain that you got held down

556
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: and had your teeth drilled?

557
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: Do you want to?

558
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: I can see the look on your face, and I'm

559
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: sorry I'm bringing this up.

560
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: Now, you're smiling. I think you smile when you get

561
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: nervous sometimes.

562
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: But tell us about that, because that was horrendous what

563
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: happened there.

564
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 3: So it was a bit of a aftermath of that

565
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 3: exact fight, not even fight, because it was one sided

566
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: when my inmate did stab me, So it was basically

567
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: a few days after that, and from what I understood,

568
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: she actually arranged for it to somewhat be done. So

569
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: I was taken to Sannida, which is where they have

570
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 3: their dentist, and get in there and I see it.

571
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 3: Obviously it's a dentist, and I thought, well, ikay. First

572
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: initial thought was no, no, yeah, check up done, because

573
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: I didn't think things like this could actually happen. Until

574
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 3: obviously I'm put in the chair and they start looking

575
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 3: at my teeth and then obviously pushing back, looking back

576
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: at my back teeth, and all of a sudden, I

577
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: feel the guard's hands gripped down my arms on the side,

578
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: and chair goes back, and this dentist she just starts

579
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: drilling into my back tooth and the pain, or that

580
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: that nerve pain, it shot through my whole body. And

581
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 3: I wasn't too bad with dentists before then to live

582
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: through that agonizing pain. And it was about five minutes,

583
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: but I can tell you it felt like an entire

584
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: lifetime of being being drilled at this one tooth. And

585
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: then when it was over, that was it, and they

586
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: left it exposed. Oh they left it exposed for about

587
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 3: three weeks, so it was this constant feeling there. But

588
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: the thing is when they did fill it in, they

589
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: didn't do it properly either. So over the years, obviously

590
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 3: I think probably about two years ago part of the

591
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 3: filling actually came out. Until today it still hasn't been fixed.

592
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: Because I am so terrified to go into a dentist

593
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 3: and have anything done. I think my wisdom teeth out

594
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: and I went and got next ray and they actually started,

595
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: you know, playing around and touching with the utensils, and

596
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: I was like, don't you dare touch that side of

597
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 3: my face and they're like, oh, it's okay. I'm like,

598
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: don't touch it. Don't touch it. If you want to

599
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: touch something in here, knock me out, Like I can't.

600
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 3: I can't go through that again. And that is probably

601
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: of all things, it is a trauma that will stay

602
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 3: with me more than anything for the rest of my

603
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 3: life and something that's so necessary in everyday life, because

604
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: it's not every day I'm going to walk back into

605
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: a prison and be in front of that trauma. This

606
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: is something so simple.

607
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: But it was their way of showing that they've got

608
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: control of you, and there's consequences and there's not a

609
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 1: thing you can do about it. But what a brutal

610
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: way to be to be shown that one adventure after another.

611
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: You also had to deal with a lot of media

612
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: attention too, which yeah, that would have been hard, Like

613
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: sixty minutes of interview interviewing you over there before you're

614
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: even being sentenced at court, and you had I think

615
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: one of you are one of the person that you

616
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: considered the friend had taken the photo and sold it

617
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: to the media, and then you became a hot ticket

618
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: item in the jarl that people get fatos that sell

619
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: it to the media, all of which would have made

620
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: you stand out, and that's the last thing you want

621
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: to want to do in the prison. I would imagine

622
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: what was your take on the media and did you

623
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: realize the extent of the media interest back here in

624
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: Australia worldwide for that matter.

625
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,439
Speaker 3: I do remember one of the first things I said

626
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 3: to my family when I was arrested, and that was

627
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: I don't want it in the media. That was the

628
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: very first thing I said, because if I ever had

629
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: a chance of coming home and trying to move forward,

630
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 3: whether it been five years, ten, years, twenty years, I

631
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 3: couldn't have that all bearing down and I guess having

632
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 3: that burden on my shoulders for the rest of my life.

633
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: But obviously, being in prison one doesn't get us say

634
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: in much as far as what other people do. I

635
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: And yes, I was completely exposed to media. I'm not

636
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: a fan of the media, and I think it would

637
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: have shown in probably my first court hearing where I

638
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 3: walk into this courtroom and I look angry because I

639
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: walk in and this whole courtroom is full of media.

640
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is it, Like, this is my life.

641
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: Whether I survive this prism, whether I don't, this is

642
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 3: what I will be remembered for. And not coming out

643
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 3: and speaking about what happened and what I went through,

644
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 3: It'll just be trafficked five point eight kilos of cocaine.

645
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: That's it. So media has has been quite harsh in

646
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 3: the sense of it doesn't matter. Even if I have

647
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: tried to, you know, tell all stuff, it's never been

648
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: tell all. It's always been let's dramatize it, let's keep

649
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: that out and let's change that and let's do this.

650
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 3: So it hasn't really mattered what I've tried to do.

651
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 3: This kind of way is the only way to actually

652
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: get it out there where you can have a conversation

653
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 3: with me. It's not, I guess under pressure, because nobody

654
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: unless you have been on the other side of an interview.

655
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: It is horrible. It is so horrible, and obviously with

656
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: a sixty minutes I got crucified for absolutely anything. If

657
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: I move my hands, if I got red on my chest,

658
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: if I touched my face. It was behavioral instincts for lying.

659
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: It was this, it was that. So it was just horror.

660
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: Even till today, I think most people will find that

661
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 3: I am very quiet on social media. I don't post

662
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: my life on there. I might post bits and pieces.

663
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 3: I have a very private, quiet life because I don't

664
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 3: unless I'm trying to do something good with what's happened

665
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: to me, I won't come out. I won't milk the

666
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 3: situation at all. Although people obviously believe, you know that

667
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: I get rich off of doing things and this and that,

668
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: but I don't. And the real reason why I stopped,

669
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 3: you know, I stepped out into the spotlight again, especially

670
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 3: with this book, because I do believe that it can

671
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: be of use and a reminder to some people that

672
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: you can go through hell. You can go to hell

673
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 3: and back. But it doesn't mean you have to give up.

674
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that's who you are. That on the

675
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 3: other side of all these misfortunes, life can be nice.

676
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: You can try again. There's no limit on how many

677
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 3: times you can try to get it right, as long

678
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: as you keep trying.

679
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think it comes across and just on the

680
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: issue with the media, someone like you would be so

681
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: easy to misrepresent. We could take snippets from here and ah,

682
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: the prison was a walk in the park. You smile,

683
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: you laugh, and that's your personality, that's you know, and

684
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: full credit to you. You made a conscious decision to

685
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: keep your humanity in prison, Like you could have turned

686
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: into this nasty, evil human being and it would have

687
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: been justified because that's the way that you've got to

688
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: survive in prison. But you've chosen you can smile about

689
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: talking about the most horrendous things, and you know media

690
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: can take advantage of that. But yeah, I suppose on

691
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: the back of Chappelle Corby who followed the prior to that,

692
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: there was this interest and they Cocaine Cassie. The name

693
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: stuck and people just tried to get.

694
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 2: That, get that story out.

695
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: I was just looking at it from the media point

696
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: of view, some of the things that reported. I'm now

697
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: working in the media, but a little bit disappointed in

698
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: that there was a person I saw you as very

699
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: vulnerable at that stage, as a twenty two year old

700
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: in a South American prison, And yeah, yeah, we can all.

701
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: Judge, but.

702
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: Who will either judge on other people's actions when you're

703
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: caught up in an environment like that. So I think

704
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: it was unfair. And I'll say that that might put

705
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: people's noses out of the joint, but I think it's

706
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: unfair to exploit you in such a vulnerable situation.

707
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: I actually I think that that interview in particular, especially

708
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: with that person, and obviously I had another one with him.

709
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: It was just it really marked the media for me.

710
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: Obviously at first one, as I go into detail in

711
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 3: the book, I wasn't technically supposed to be speaking about

712
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: my case until I was either sentenced or anything. I

713
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 3: was told not to. And then you know, all the

714
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: pressure behind the scenes with everything that was actually happening

715
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: in prison, and it was, it was, and I didn't

716
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: want to do that interview above all, I didn't want

717
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 3: to do it.

718
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, to trip someone up in that environment, it's not

719
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: hard to do. You're vulnerable, you're out of your depth

720
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: in so many different different ways, and certainly certainly in

721
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: the media. But it's another thing that you had to

722
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: had to carry the burden of with your time in

723
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: time in prison and you've got sense to six years,

724
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: you had to do parole, and then you after three

725
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: years you were released. Is that my understanding or those

726
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: rough figures?

727
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 3: So I was sentenced to six years seventy two months.

728
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: I over in Colombia exists certain benefits for each stage

729
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 3: of your sentence. I couldn't do seventy two hour release

730
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 3: or home detention because of the severity of my charges

731
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 3: because technically they were considered aggravated. They were aggravated charges.

732
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: So the only thing that I could potentially get was

733
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 3: something called libert dad connal, which is basically parole. So

734
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,959
Speaker 3: once you have completed three fifths of your sentence, which

735
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 3: for me was if I remember correctly, it was like

736
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 3: thirty nine and a half months, so it was just

737
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 3: over three No, sorry, it was forty three and a

738
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: half months, so just over three years. I did physically

739
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: two years, eleven months and twenty one days in prison.

740
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 3: I'd completed I think roughly six months worth of discount

741
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: through teaching and everything else that I did, which meant

742
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: I was above the scale to be released on parole.

743
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: And unfortunately it actually happened around the same time that

744
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: COVID hit Colombia.

745
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: Great time to get the out of prison.

746
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 3: I just got in to get released on obviously the

747
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 3: because I'd done my time, not because I was released

748
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 3: because of COVID. And then I was released the day,

749
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: not even the day before. I was released thirteen minutes

750
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 3: before Colombia went into lockdown. So I was released at

751
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: eleven thirty at night, and it went from being confined

752
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 3: in a building in a prison to being confined in

753
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: a room in an apartment building. Although free, I didn't

754
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 3: feel free, and I'd had this hole when I get out,

755
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to get a job, I'm going to do this,

756
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to do that, and I couldn't. So this

757
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 3: whole mind set up, this structure that i'd put in

758
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 3: place I couldn't do, and it was it was really

759
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: hard to it's really hard to actually deal with COVID

760
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: over there because I couldn't get any medical I couldn't

761
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 3: do a lot of stuff, and I shouldn't complain, because

762
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 3: anything was better than being in that prison. But I

763
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 3: still felt like, in a certain way, I was still

764
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: I was still in a prison because I had to

765
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 3: stay in Colombia for another twenty seven months until I

766
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 3: had completed the full physical term of my sentence, which

767
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: meant every month I had to report myself to immigration.

768
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 3: And I laughed because, ah, when COVID was in Colombia,

769
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 3: I couldn't report myself to immigration because they were shut

770
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 3: So I was technically undocumented for nearly seven months in Colombia.

771
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 3: Couldn't get didn't get sent money, I couldn't get money

772
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 3: out of a bank. I couldn't do anything.

773
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: It's that's there's another podcast in the story of there.

774
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: How How how you survived there? Because you know, it's

775
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: not like you had known your way around Columbia before

776
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: you got locked up. You'dn't even been there for eight

777
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: or nine days or whatever it was, so it was

778
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: you're completely completely foreign. One thing, and I want to

779
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: talk about the release from prison, but what we haven't

780
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: touched on is that the work that you did in prison,

781
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: and that you you alluded to it there with your

782
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: your discounts because you were teaching English and that was

783
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: something that you're really passionate about in prison and something

784
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: that you were helping people in a lot of ways.

785
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I as soon as I could actually I

786
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 3: guess speak and understand Spanish, the whole structure of prison

787
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 3: life changed. So I went from being this enemy to

788
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: all of my inmates to suddenly being this person of

789
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 3: interest because they could suddenly talk to me. There wasn't

790
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: just you know, this person that was ignorant, didn't want

791
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 3: to learn the language, didn't want to fit in. So

792
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 3: as soon as I started teaching English, it was scary.

793
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 3: I'd never taught my own language to anyone before, and

794
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 3: to go back and actually have to learn things about

795
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 3: my own language, it was bizarre because you know, we

796
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 3: might say something in a certain way because we say

797
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 3: it that way, so to actually find why. And I

798
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: was very fortunate that teaching English to my inmates, it

799
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: was really fulfilling to watch them want to learn this

800
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: life skill a language, because when they got out, they

801
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 3: knew that this whole different set of opportunities would wait

802
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 3: for them. Because English over there is such a huge,

803
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 3: huge tool as far as getting head in life. And

804
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: I would go above and beyond with all of my

805
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 3: inmates to try and make sure that I was constantly

806
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 3: advancing understanding, to the point where I actually managed to

807
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 3: get an outside English college to actually basically team up,

808
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 3: give me all the materials, give them certificates that reflected

809
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: as if they were outside outside experience with speaking English

810
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 3: to get a job. And this particular college was also

811
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,399
Speaker 3: working towards getting a call center set up for these

812
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 3: ex inmates as well. So there was this huge project

813
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 3: that I was involved in, and in those moments of teaching,

814
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 3: I suddenly was one of the inmates, if that makes sense.

815
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 3: I was one of them because they respected me. There's

816
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 3: always this mutual respect between inmates because you don't know

817
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: what they're capable of, and to be their teacher not

818
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: misuse I guess the authority that I have as a

819
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 3: teacher with them and still treat them as if we're

820
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: an equal. I was helping them with funny enough, with

821
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 3: their legal documents writing. I can write anything in Spanish perfectly.

822
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 3: I know some of I know a lot of laws

823
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: in Colombia. Studied a lot over there, studied nursing, studied criminology,

824
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 3: studied lots of things, and it was really interesting to

825
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 3: obviously be the person that they all turned to when

826
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: they needed help. And I think I still remember this day,

827
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: just this one, this inmate that was really really good

828
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 3: with me. She was almost like a mum to me.

829
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 3: She was a very motherly figure. I was crying one

830
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 3: day in Patio seven. I hadn't been sentenced yet, and

831
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: she wasn't meaning to be giving me tough love, but

832
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 3: it was tough love because she goes, she spoke really

833
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: broken English, by the way, to kind of give you

834
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: a visual on this, she goes, stop crying, and when

835
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 3: someone told you to stop crying, you naturally cry more.

836
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: And she goes, but you're okay, you're healthy, you're fine.

837
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: You don't have kids, and you kind of learn not

838
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 3: to ask people why they're there. You wait for them

839
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 3: to tell you. It's not something you obviously try to

840
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 3: get out of them. And I sat there quiet because

841
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 3: it was true I didn't have kids. And she goes,

842
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 3: me and my husband are in prison, my kids are

843
00:54:53,360 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 3: out there alone. We need a motion, and it was

844
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 3: just sometimes we're so absorbed in our own problems that

845
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: we don't stop and think how bad it is. For

846
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: someone else, and that moment for me was very triggering

847
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 3: because it was a focus point for me to go,

848
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: what I'm going through is horrible, it sucks. My life

849
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 3: is literally the definition of hell at the moment. But

850
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 3: it could be worse. It could be so much worse,

851
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 3: and she she made me understand that. And so from

852
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 3: that moment, from so early on in my time in prison,

853
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 3: I was going through such hard things, but I still

854
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 3: went and said, somebody else has got it worse than me.

855
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 3: Somebody else will always have it worse than what I've got.

856
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 3: And I think the strength that I actually have within

857
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: me to keep pushing through and keep going, Okay, I've

858
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 3: got to pick myself up. I can do this, I

859
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 3: can do better. I've run towards challenge knowing that I

860
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:24,280
Speaker 3: will very well full flat on my ass because unless

861
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 3: I'm being challenged now, I know that I'm not really

862
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 3: learning more about myself because unless we are pushed to

863
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 3: our limit, we don't we don't grow, we don't learn

864
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 3: to self reflect or anything. Really.

865
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: So, yeah, wow, what you've said and what she said

866
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: such a simple thing but so profound and obviously had

867
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: an impact on you. But you talk about growing and

868
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: I'm looking at you the person I imagine you to

869
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: be at the time you went into prison to the

870
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 1: person you are now. And there's been a hell of

871
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of growth. I see you're upset.

872
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:07,919
Speaker 1: Not sure if this will make you sad or put

873
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: a smile on your face, but I think it's worth

874
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: reading out because this is something that one of the

875
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,720
Speaker 1: prison guards said to you when you were leaving prison,

876
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: and I've just made a note here. I think it

877
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: sums up a lot about your time in prison. And

878
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: I just read this quote out, and this is a

879
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: prison guard saying this to you.

880
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: I watched you grow in here.

881
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: There were times where I thought you would be shipped

882
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: home in the body bag, especially after the beating you took.

883
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: But you show this all, not just strength and resilience,

884
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: but you have such a kind heart. Take a look

885
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: around you. You made a difference here. Not everyone does that.

886
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: Be proud of leaving this place. You have no one

887
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: to thank but yourself. I can't talk. You're going to

888
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: have to talk. That's pretty heavy.

889
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the last thing I expected leaving tour.

890
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: I guess have one of the people I guess acknowledge

891
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 3: that even being in those situations that I tried constantly

892
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 3: tried to be good and better and help because that

893
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 3: place is it is hell. And there's not a day

894
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,959
Speaker 3: that I don't think about the people that are still there.

895
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 3: I think that pretty much sums it up.

896
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says a lot about the person that you become, Cassie.

897
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: And I know I look at even coming back to Australia.

898
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: You've had your had your challenges there and the way

899
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: that people look at you, and I think part of

900
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,479
Speaker 1: the book was, Okay, this is who I am there,

901
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: it's all out there. You judge me for the person.

902
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: But I invite anyone that's listened to this podcast not

903
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: to look at you've been. Yeah, you've exposed yourself talking

904
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: about your emotions, talking about the things that you've gone through.

905
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: There was another benefit from your time over there. I

906
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: might try and put a smile on your face here,

907
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: but you did find.

908
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: Love, yes at last. Okay, talk us through, Talk us

909
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 2: through that.

910
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 3: I am so roughly about a year, so she was

911
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 3: nearly nearly a year on the dot. Just over a

912
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:55,919
Speaker 3: year after being out. I met that Doough and completely unexpected,

913
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 3: really unexpected right place time because we were just coming

914
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 3: out of certain parts of the pandemic, well not even

915
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 3: the pandemic restrictions being lifted. But now it's really interesting

916
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 3: when we have conversations and he will say, especially where

917
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 3: he worked, I still believe we were destined to meet

918
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 3: each other. It sounds really like corny because we were

919
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 3: constantly in the same areas, on the same street, a

920
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 3: few doors down from each other, because I gave English

921
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 3: classes to a certain business on that area. So one

922
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 3: day we were going to meet, and it just so

923
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 3: happened that when we did meet, we were friends. And

924
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 3: then eventually, I think after the first, first or second day,

925
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 3: I sat him down and I told him, told him everything,

926
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: because I didn't I didn't want that burden of trying

927
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 3: to explain how I've been here for so long and

928
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 3: I've seen so little of Colombia, or you know, those

929
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 3: sorts of things. And all he said to me was,

930
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 3: I can't judge you on your past, whether you did it,

931
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 3: whether you didn't do it. I can't judge your past.

932
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 3: All I can All I can do is watch and

933
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 3: see what you do with your present and future. And

934
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 3: that was it. And we've had heaps of conversations about

935
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 3: everything that I've gone through in prison, he too can't

936
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 3: believe what I went through. Him being from that country.

937
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 3: He has basically said that's it's absolutely disgusting, and he goes,

938
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 3: you should do something about it. I'm like, well, I

939
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 3: can't really do anything about it from here now, can I?

940
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 3: Because obviously, as most people know that, like I did

941
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 3: want to study law, I did want to go back

942
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 3: and study law. I feel like probably be quite a

943
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: quite a harsh lawyer. Sometimes you'd be ruthless. Yeah, but yeah,

944
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 3: So we got married in two thousand and twenty two

945
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 3: in March. If you've ever seen like one of those

946
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 3: comedy movies about where anything and everything can go wrong

947
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 3: for a wedding, that was me very funny. Now to

948
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 3: think about it, even when I speak about it, it's hilarious,

949
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 3: but obviously at that point in time it was not

950
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 3: hilarious at all. Still got married though, So we got married,

951
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 3: and and we arrived back in Australia in August twenty

952
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 3: twenty two. And yeah, we've basically been constructing our life here.

953
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 3: It's been tough. It's tough for me in general. But

954
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 3: I think what makes it worse because I do carry

955
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of the weight and the

956
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 3: burden of obviously having such a high profile for not

957
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: a good thing. I'm constantly worried about the effect that

958
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 3: that has on on my family, on my nephews, on

959
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 3: my partner, because people can be really harsh in that aspect,

960
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 3: like the problem is with me, it's not with them.

961
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 3: And I think that's part of the reason why I

962
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 3: constantly actually I think that's part of the reason why

963
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 3: the book was so important to get it out there,

964
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: because I don't I don't want them to think that

965
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 3: I'm hiding from what I did or that it's okay too,

966
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: I guess not. I don't even know the right word

967
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,439
Speaker 3: to say, Like, I want them to see that it's

968
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 3: okay to make a mistake as long as as I said,

969
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 3: as long as you keep trying and you take responsibility

970
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 3: for it. And that's something that I would rather be

971
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 3: remembered for somebody who who screwed up, made the biggest

972
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 3: mistake of her life, but she still moved forward, rather

973
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 3: than oh, she did this type thing. Because everything that

974
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 3: I have managed to overcome since coming back to Australia,

975
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 3: it is a whole nother ballgame to say there were

976
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 3: many times that I could have just gone this is

977
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 3: too hard. I can't do this because it's not been easy.

978
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 3: It's been a constant battle with medicare, with my license,

979
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 3: with banks, with absolutely everything I do get harshly judged

980
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 3: by people. Some people are really good, some people can

981
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 3: be really harsh, which obviously pushed me back in a perspective.

982
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 3: When it does happen to me and someone treats me

983
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 3: like absolute crap, I feel terrible and it knocks me

984
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 3: back for a good, good week or so. I will

985
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 3: crawl back into my little, my little safe retreat, and

986
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 3: I go, ah, this is why I don't This is

987
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 3: why I'm not in social media. This is why I

988
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 3: don't do anything, because I'm so harsh on myself sometimes

989
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 3: that I can't let myself go back to that point

990
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 3: in my life so little, It wasn't that long ago

991
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 3: where I hate myself, where I believe everything that people

992
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 3: say about me. I refuse to go back there. And

993
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 3: it's so easy to do it.

994
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: Well, I can understand why. It's it's a battle for

995
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: you continuously, But what sort of society have we got

996
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: if people that make mistakes? It's not a justice system

997
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: if you make a mistake, you pay pay the price

998
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: for it, and you've got to be able to come

999
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 1: out and live a good life. And that makes society

1000
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 1: a better place. Whether we going to be a better

1001
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: society if we can just keep kicking you every time

1002
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: you stick your head up to keep you down. I

1003
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: see the inspiration that you can show people you life

1004
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: can be at rock bottom and you can't get much

1005
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 1: further than being stabbed in a Columbian prison.

1006
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty bad.

1007
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: You can be at rock bottom and work your way up,

1008
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: and that should inspire people and also show people that

1009
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: you can contribute to society. Who knows like that message

1010
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: that the prison guard gave you as you're walking out

1011
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 1: out the prison. I'm sure those sort of comments aren't

1012
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: handed out lightly.

1013
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 2: So you've made a.

1014
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: Difference in people's lives over there, So keep up the fight.

1015
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: I full full credit to you. I've been fascinated by

1016
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 1: our chat and really we've just scraped the scrape the

1017
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: surface of what you've experienced. But I've got to know you.

1018
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: By sitting down having a talk with you, can I

1019
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,439
Speaker 1: dare ask what's your what's your plans your future? You've

1020
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: got some things going on.

1021
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so still very hands on with teaching English. I

1022
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 3: do have some project type stuff behind the scenes to

1023
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 3: do with I guess, trying to help people that have

1024
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 3: been through similar situations or not even similar situations, that

1025
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 3: have been through something that has made them pause in

1026
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 3: life and not know how to move forward. So I

1027
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 3: definitely do have a lot going on behind the scenes.

1028
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 3: I do tend to keep it very quiet until it's

1029
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 3: it's it's ready to go ahead family wise, possibly in

1030
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 3: the next couple of years, maybe moving forward and having

1031
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 3: a having a family as well. I think we're just

1032
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 3: really still trying to focus on whether it's here or there, okay,

1033
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 3: because I I don't think, I really really love Columbia.

1034
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 3: I think it's a great country once you get past

1035
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 3: the bad stuff. So I think, yeah, behind we're behind

1036
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,919
Speaker 3: the scenes, we're still trying to figure out if it's

1037
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 3: here or there. And I guess, yeah, just moving forward

1038
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 3: with constantly wanting to help people. And I think that's

1039
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 3: a big part of why I decided that I wanted

1040
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 3: anything from the book to obviously go to charities that

1041
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 3: have vulnerable people, because you just never know what the

1042
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 3: most simple little bit of help, what it can do

1043
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 3: for someone, and people that need it most, they will

1044
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 3: never ask for it. They will suffer in silence until

1045
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 3: it's too late.

1046
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,799
Speaker 1: Well Well said Gussie Well said, well, I think we'll

1047
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: wrap it up at this point, and I just want

1048
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: to thank you for coming on eye catch Killers and yeah,

1049
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: really giving us an insight into what you've been through.

1050
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 2: Get to understand.

1051
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: How you survived and how you're steering your life in

1052
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 1: the right direction. And congratulations to you. Know we talk

1053
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 1: about redemption here on I catch Killers, resience, human spirit.

1054
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: You've ticked all those boxes. I've got one favorite to

1055
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: ask of you. Can you say in Spanish? Thanks for

1056
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:20,719
Speaker 1: having me on Ie Catch Killers?

1057
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 3: Well sure get asses a catch Killers beautiful.

1058
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: Thanks very much, Thanks Cassie, all the best for the future.

1059
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1060
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 1: Don't tell me I went soft on Cassie Sainsbury. I

1061
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: think it was about time people sat down and found

1062
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: out who this person is. We all make mistakes. She

1063
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 1: made a big one, but she paid the price. And

1064
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: I think she was very open and honest in the

1065
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 1: emotional told that her time in prison and the type

1066
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:54,480
Speaker 1: of person she's turned in. Now, that's what the justice system.

1067
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 2: Is meant to be.

1068
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: All about if people commit offenses, they get punished, they

1069
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 1: pay a price. Cassie's done that, but I find inspiration

1070
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: not only the way she survived, how she kept her humanity.

1071
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 2: And what she's doing with her life now. Full credit

1072
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 2: to her