1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: It's Thursday, October seventeen. Australia will donate tanks worth almost 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty million dollars to Ukraine. The move 4 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: is a response to the emergence of an alliance between 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: Russia and North Korea, and it follows a controversial decision 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: by the government to bury usable helicopters instead of sending 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: them to Ukraine. Anthony Albanese's four point three million dollar 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: house purchase hasn't gone down well with some of his 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: labor colleagues. They're pushing for a shakeup of the party's 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: housing policies ahead of the election to show voters they're 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: taking the housing crisis seriously. That exclusive is live right 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot Com dot a U. A 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: billion dollar gold mine and a sacred store. Worry about 14 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: a beautiful native bee. Those are the elements of a 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: raging controversy that's drawn in Environment Minister Tanya Plibisek and 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: two groups of Aboriginal elders with opposing views. Today the 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: high stakes and delicate politics of the dreaming. There's a 18 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: bee native to Australia. The blue banded bee, which is 19 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: so pretty it looks like it can't possibly be real. 20 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: It has turquoise and black stripes across its bottom, golden 21 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: fur on top, and a pair of gleaming fairy wings. 22 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: Blue banded bees are solitary creatures and they burrow into 23 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: flowers and then buzz to shake the pollen loose. The 24 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: blue banded bee is not imaginary. It's very real. But 25 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: is it part of the dreaming of the Warradjuri people, 26 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: whose lands stretch across a vast slice of central New 27 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: South Wales. That's the question at the heart of a 28 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: raging political drama. Environment Minister Tanya Plibisek in August rejected 29 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 1: a proposal for a one billion dollar gold mine, accepting 30 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: an application by a group of Warajuri elders who said 31 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: there'd be irreversible damage to Aboriginal cultural heritage if the 32 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: mine goes ahead. Critically, they're objecting to the mining company 33 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: Regis Resources creating a tailings dam that it needs to 34 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: store the waste products created by the mine. They say 35 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: the dam would destroy the headwaters of the Blobular River. 36 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: What they said was a site of traditional pre initiation 37 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: ceremonies where the dreaming story about the blue banded bee 38 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: was shared. 39 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: So the sex found that that was a significant story 40 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 2: and a story that made that catchment area of the 41 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: river very important to our people. 42 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: Page Tailor is The Australian's Indigenous Affairs editor. 43 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: And of course this has caused a huge controversy because 44 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 2: the Orange Land Council, which is the main representative body 45 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 2: for that area, really disputes that story. They don't think 46 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: it's real. 47 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: The dreaming. That's the creation stories passed down through generations 48 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: of Aboriginal Australians. It's part of a rich, interconnected spirituality 49 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: that encompasses animals, plants, the soil below and the constellations above. 50 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: This lineage of storytelling has been disrupted since seventeen eighty 51 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: eight by the consequences of white settlement, from the devastation 52 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: of smallpox to frontier violence and family separation, and that's 53 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: left uncertainty about establishing exactly who holds the cultural knowledge. 54 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: Accepted the bee dreaming claim from the elders who call 55 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: themselves the Warajuri Traditional Owners. Central West Aboriginal Corporation REGIS 56 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: says they found no mention of the blue banded b 57 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: dreaming until twenty twenty two when it was invoked by 58 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: opponents of their mind. And here's where it becomes interesting, 59 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: also saying the dreaming story is a myth. Are Warajury 60 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: elders associated with the Orange Local Aboriginal Land Council. That's 61 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: a body created under land rights legislation to represent the 62 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: interests of Aboriginal people and to manage traditional heritage sites. 63 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: It all comes at a moment of exquisite sensitivity for 64 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: the resources sector and the government. 65 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: This all goes back to when Rio Tinto blew up 66 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: the ancient caves at jouk and Gorge. 67 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: Mining giant Rio Tinto has fronted a parliamentary inquiry this 68 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: morning over the destruction of a forty six thousand year 69 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: old indigenous site in wa is Pilber region. 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: That was an international scandal and it's really brought attention 71 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: to the fact that there are very important sites, and 72 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: there are very important places that may not necessarily have 73 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: a rare or endangered animal living there. It's an awareness 74 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: of Aboriginal spiritual and cultural tradition that I think mining 75 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: companies especially are now trying very hard to be conscious of. 76 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: And we saw in this case that Regius Resources. The 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: company commissioned several reports and some of them were very comprehensive. 78 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 2: One of their consultants was asked specifically to look for 79 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: what's described as intangible heritage, and that's when it's not 80 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: an artifact, it's not a stone tool, it's a belief system. 81 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: Since Regis's application for this tailing dam was rejected, you 82 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: and other journalists have been really trying to dig back 83 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: through the reasoning of the Environment Minister in making this decision. 84 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: What have you discovered about the process that took place. 85 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: It hasn't been that easy to be candid, because the 86 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: Minister was staying from the beginning that there were things 87 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: that were told to her in confidence. Now that we 88 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: have the published reasons, we can see that the bee 89 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: dreaming is very central to her thinking. And we can 90 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: also see that there's a massive type over that because 91 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: it's a story that only emerged very recently and the 92 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: main representative body doesn't think it's true. 93 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: Tennie Flivers says, she's not actually rejecting this mind, she's 94 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: just telling them they have to adjust their proposal a 95 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: little bit. 96 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: There is nothing to stop the project going ahead. What 97 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 3: I expect is that the tailing dam should be built 98 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: in another location. The project proponent has chosen the cheapest 99 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 3: and easiest location. The cheapest and easiest location has unacceptable 100 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: impacts on cultural heritage. 101 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: The mining company says there are no viable alternatives for 102 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: the tailings dam. Complicating things is the fact that the 103 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: Orange Aboriginal Land Council's position on the mine has changed. 104 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: They initially opposed the mine. They had someone working for 105 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: them who prepared reports that made them very concerned about 106 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: how the mine would affect cultural heritage. They say to 107 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: us that when that person left, they wanted to do 108 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: their own reports. They wanted to just re examine and 109 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: revisit what they thought they knew, and they became convinced 110 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: that the site, that catchment area where the mine is 111 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: proposed is not sacrude. There are very important stories to 112 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: the wragerie in the region, and some of their elders 113 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: are the keepers of those stories, but the Blue Banded 114 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: b is not one, and thanks say, none of those 115 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: stories crossover the catchment area where the mine was proposed. 116 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: Do you get the sense page that what we're seeing 117 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: here is a government who is perhaps a little bit 118 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: traumatized by Dug and Gorge, and is being super cautious, 119 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: erring on the side of the possibility that this might 120 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: be real rather than wanting to dig into it too 121 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: much because saying no is easier than saying yes. 122 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 2: That's such an interesting question. When you read Miss Plebisc's reasons, 123 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: she sounds like she was very convinced by the evidence 124 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: of an unnamed elder about the significance of the bee 125 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: and the bee dreaming. What we don't understand is why 126 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: the evidence of six people from the orange Land Council, 127 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: including five people who identify as we Adurie, and we 128 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: now know one of them is the very senior cultural 129 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: authority kneel Ingral, was disregarded. In short, the minister's explanation 130 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: is that not all people know all stories. That is 131 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: why she's sided with the dissident group effectively in this case. 132 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: She has talked about wanting to be more sensitive to 133 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: Indigenous culture and claims of Indigenous cultural heritage since Gorge, 134 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: I think that's a really fort area. Sometimes in government, 135 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 2: who do you listen to? 136 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: Coming up the legacy of another bitter dispute over sacred 137 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: stories page. When I first got into journalism. In the 138 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties, there was this raging controversy about the 139 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: Heindmarsh Island Bridge, a proposal in South Australia to build 140 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: a bridge to an island, which some local developers wanted 141 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: to do. It attracted opposition from some Indigenous people who 142 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: said that it would disturb sacred practices. 143 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 4: The Narrjerry women tried to block construction of the bridge, 144 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 4: arguing it would interfere with secret women's business. A Royal 145 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 4: commission found that claims to be fabricated. For years, the 146 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 4: state government supported the ruling, but has now acknowledged a 147 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 4: two thousand and one Federal Court finding that the claims 148 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 4: of secret women's business weren't made up. 149 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: Home mosh Iron was such a difficult debate. It was 150 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: about whether or not there was secret women's business at 151 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: that site. That debate went on for years and the 152 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: Australians Chris Kenny reported on that in quite a revelatory way. 153 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: So in that case, in the simplest terms, there was 154 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: an established indigenous group that was talking about the women's 155 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: business and how important that was, and there was a 156 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: dissident group that was casting doubt on those claims. It's 157 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: the opposite. At Blaney, it's the established group, the one 158 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: with statutory authority. They're the elected body. They're saying this 159 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: bee dreaming story isn't real, and it's the dissident group 160 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: that has had the ear of the minister. They're saying 161 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: it is real and it's reason enough to stop the mind. 162 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: A central figure from that controversy has popped up in 163 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: this story, writing in The Australian Today. 164 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: Philip Clark's and anthropologists with so many years experience. He 165 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: was commissioned by Regis to do a very thorough audit 166 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: of what's in the records, and he did find some 167 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: ttemic animals and some dreaming stories, some stories about creation ancestors, 168 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: nothing that would impact that site. But doctor Clark didn't 169 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: find a story about blue bee dreaming in his inquiries, 170 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: and when he was asked about it, he says, in 171 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: my opinion, this is highly unlikely, since there's no record 172 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 2: of any Worraderi group having such tutemic ancestor. Doctor Clark 173 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: talks about totemic animals in some of his writings, and 174 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: they tend to be animals that are useful. For example, 175 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: he's actually quite doubtful about species of bee that does 176 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: not produce collectible honey becoming part of the tradition and 177 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: part of Rajeri dreaming. 178 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: Page Taylor is The Australian's Indigenous Affairs editor. You can 179 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 1: read all her forensic reporting on this controversy right now 180 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: at the Australian dot com dot au