WEBVTT - Inside the Greens' interest rate demands

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>The Reserve banks should lower interest rates and if they don't,

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<v Speaker 1>the government should make them. That's according to the Greens.

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<v Speaker 1>Their spokesperson for Economic Justice, Nick McKim, has said he

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<v Speaker 1>won't support the government's reforms to the RBA unless the

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<v Speaker 1>Treasury intervenes and the bank's decision making processes and tells

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<v Speaker 1>them to lower interest rates. It's a big demand, something

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<v Speaker 1>that's never happened before and is unlikely to now, with

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<v Speaker 1>Labour saying the Greens are out of control, and there

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<v Speaker 1>is also unrest within the Greens about the position, with

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<v Speaker 1>some concern the demands go too far at a time

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<v Speaker 1>when the party is looking to make itself a viable

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<v Speaker 1>alternative to the two major parties at the next election.

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<v Speaker 1>Today National correspondent for the Saturday paper Mike Sekham on

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<v Speaker 1>just how independent the Reserve Bank is and what the

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<v Speaker 1>Greens are playing at. It's Friday, September twenty seven. Mike,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>It's always a pleasure.

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<v Speaker 1>What was your reaction when you heard the Greens were

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<v Speaker 1>demanding the government forced the RBA to lower interest rates?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Frankly, I wondered what they were playing at, and

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<v Speaker 2>I would suggest so did most other commentators out there.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, clearly the Greens have been on a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a roll of late. You know, they've done very

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<v Speaker 2>well raising the issue of the high cost of housing,

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<v Speaker 2>which now has the government looking at maybe changing the

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<v Speaker 2>tax breaks around negative gearing. So a win. But equally clearly,

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<v Speaker 2>this particular one is not something that this government or

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<v Speaker 2>any other government, I would suggest. Whatever, do you know

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<v Speaker 2>they are not going to take the interest rates setting

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<v Speaker 2>power off the Reserve Bank. I was a bit flummixed

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<v Speaker 2>by it, and so I called Nick McKim, who's the

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<v Speaker 2>relevant Green spokesman on treasury matters, and ask him to

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<v Speaker 2>tell me why I think the government should do this.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess the question is are we really in extraordinary

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<v Speaker 2>circumstances at the moment? I mean, so, I caught him

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<v Speaker 2>just a few hours before the RBA's Tuesday rates announcement

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<v Speaker 2>and he gave me a prediction. He said that the

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<v Speaker 2>Central Bank would not lower rates and that the government

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<v Speaker 2>will respond with quote the usual ritual of ashen faced

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<v Speaker 2>hand ringing, ringing.

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<v Speaker 3>Every time interest rates go up, where they go out

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<v Speaker 3>and pretend there is nothing they can do about it,

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<v Speaker 3>so they can empathize with people that are getting smashed.

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<v Speaker 3>It's theater.

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<v Speaker 2>He also said the Reserve Bank is not independent and

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<v Speaker 2>never has been.

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<v Speaker 3>The so called independence of the Reserve Bank is just

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<v Speaker 3>a great big lie told by labor and liberal treasurers

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<v Speaker 3>over other decades.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the bank announced its decision, Jim Chalmers came

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<v Speaker 2>out and behave pretty much exactly as McKim predicted he would.

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<v Speaker 2>He held a media conference in Brisbane and uttered variations

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<v Speaker 2>of the I word are independent or independence seven times

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<v Speaker 2>in the space of about a minute in response to

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<v Speaker 2>questions from the media.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't preempt and I don't second guess decisions taken

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<v Speaker 4>by the independent Reserve Bank. I've made that very much.

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<v Speaker 2>And he went on to stress that the government's legislation,

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<v Speaker 2>which is stalled because of the Greens action, we're about

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<v Speaker 2>trying to make the Reserve Bank more independent, not less.

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<v Speaker 4>So these decisions are taken independently by the Reserve Bank.

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<v Speaker 4>My efforts have been about trying to make the bank

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<v Speaker 4>more independent, not less independent. I respect and cherish its independence.

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<v Speaker 4>They've taken this decision.

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<v Speaker 1>So charmers is saying that the bank is independent. Nick

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<v Speaker 1>McKim is saying the exact opposite. Who's right here, Mike.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, As a debating point, I think you'd have to

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<v Speaker 2>say McKim was right. I mean, it's in the act.

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<v Speaker 2>Section eleven of the Reserve Bank Act provides that the

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<v Speaker 2>Treasurer can rule a bank decision, but there's a somewhat

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<v Speaker 2>convoluted process involved that includes a requirement that the bank

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<v Speaker 2>should produce a statement and I'm quoting here a statement

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<v Speaker 2>in relation to the matter in respect of which the

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<v Speaker 2>difference of opinion has arisen. So, in other words, when

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<v Speaker 2>the Bank and the government aren't getting on, there has

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<v Speaker 2>to be a public airing of why they're not getting on.

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<v Speaker 2>I would suggest that's perhaps one reason why no Treasurer

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<v Speaker 2>has ever used the power, because you know, it bring

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<v Speaker 2>on an enormous public stout. The other reason I think

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<v Speaker 2>that it's never been used is that Australia has not

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<v Speaker 2>experienced a major economic crisis in which the bank and

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<v Speaker 2>the government were seriously in conflict.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Greens are emphasizing in relation to this that

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<v Speaker 1>the government could tell the Reserve Bank to lower rates.

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<v Speaker 1>Like you said, it's never happened before and there's no

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<v Speaker 1>signs that it will happen again, which makes it an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting political choice by the Greens to run this line.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you find out about why they're pushing this

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<v Speaker 1>particular line of argument.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, well, I called a number of people from the

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<v Speaker 2>Greens room because I wanted to know why they decided

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<v Speaker 2>to take this tack. Some of them spoke on background.

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<v Speaker 2>I think probably the most telling though, was the person

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<v Speaker 2>who didn't speak, and that's the Senator Peter wish Wilson,

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<v Speaker 2>who politely but firmly declined through his spokesperson to get involved.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think this is interesting because he's a person

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<v Speaker 2>with pretty serious economic credentials. He's one of a couple

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<v Speaker 2>in the Greens party. He is one. The other is

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<v Speaker 2>Barbara Pocock. Wish Wilson has a master's degree in economics.

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<v Speaker 2>For almost eight years until he entered Federal Parliament in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve, he taught university economics. Before that, he worked

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<v Speaker 2>as a banker and a broker for more than a

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<v Speaker 2>decade with Merrill Lynch on Wall Street and with Deutsche

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<v Speaker 2>Bank in Hong Kong. He was also the Green's finance

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<v Speaker 2>spokesman between twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, and then he

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<v Speaker 2>became the party's treasury spokesman, which is a position he

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<v Speaker 2>held until September twenty twenty, when he was reshuffled out

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<v Speaker 2>of the role by the new leader, Adam Bann. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he's a fairly serious voice on the matter,

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<v Speaker 2>and the fact that he's choosing to stay strom on

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<v Speaker 2>this I think suggests that maybe he's not entirely in agreement. Nonetheless,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I rang him thinking that he might have

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<v Speaker 2>some pertinent observations to make about this insistence that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>politicians are more to be trusted on interest rates setting

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<v Speaker 2>than the econocrats of Australia's Central Bank, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>pretty extraordinary thing to posit I would suggest wish Wilson

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<v Speaker 2>isn't talking. But certainly others in the Greens party room

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<v Speaker 2>are uneasy about the line their colleague, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Treasury spokesman, Nick McKim has taken. Some of them wonder

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<v Speaker 2>if it was necessary to pick this particular fight with

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<v Speaker 2>the government. They worry that Anthony Alberanesi's line that the

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<v Speaker 2>Greens and the coalition parties have formed what he calls

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<v Speaker 2>a noalition to styre me not just this but other

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<v Speaker 2>bits of a number of other bits of government legislation

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<v Speaker 2>in the Senate. They worry that line's getting a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of traction.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break the political calculation behind the Greens demand. Mark,

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<v Speaker 1>You've been speaking to a lot of Greens about the

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<v Speaker 1>Reserve Bank into their demand that the government force interistrates down.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me about what you found out about

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<v Speaker 1>how they landed here?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, how it happened was that the government ordered a

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<v Speaker 2>review into the Reserve Bank, an independent review, and it

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<v Speaker 2>reported back last year with fifty one recommendations, all accepted

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<v Speaker 2>by the government. The government was planning to legislate and

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<v Speaker 2>until very recently had been working with the coalition to

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<v Speaker 2>implement the reforms, and things seemed to be going swimmingly.

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<v Speaker 2>Jim Chalmers made some amendments to take account of opposition concerns,

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<v Speaker 2>and then quite suddenly and recently without any notice, the

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<v Speaker 2>coalition parties just walked away from the deal that was

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<v Speaker 2>very close to being done. So what this means is

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<v Speaker 2>that suddenly the government needs the Greens and the cross

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<v Speaker 2>Bench if it's going to get its reforms through the Senate,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Greens are concerned with a couple of provisions

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<v Speaker 2>in the legislation, particularly with the idea that Section eleven

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<v Speaker 2>of the Reserve Bank Act, the one that gives the

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<v Speaker 2>Treasure a power to overrule the Bank in extraordinary circumstances,

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<v Speaker 2>is to be abolished. And this is of course the

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<v Speaker 2>very part of the Act that McKim is wanting the

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<v Speaker 2>Treasure to use right now. His Senate colleagues have gone

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<v Speaker 2>along with him. He told me this was a party

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<v Speaker 2>room decision arrived at through the quote normal processes unquote,

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<v Speaker 2>and taken within the past couple of weeks. But another

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<v Speaker 2>source tells me that in fact there had been differing

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<v Speaker 2>views expressed in the party room. Nonetheless, it was decided

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<v Speaker 2>that the Party would block the RBA reform legislation in

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<v Speaker 2>the Senate until interest rates began coming down. Then it

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<v Speaker 2>would waive most of the changes through, but it would

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<v Speaker 2>insist that Section eleven was retained. That was agreed. McKim

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<v Speaker 2>went out, but he went further than a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>his colleagues were expecting. He went out and demanded not

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<v Speaker 2>just that sectional even be retained in case of some

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<v Speaker 2>future crisis, but that the government should immediately use it,

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<v Speaker 2>and that a source told me, was not how some

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<v Speaker 2>of us expected it to be announced. They thought the

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<v Speaker 2>government should retain that Section eleven power, but saying it

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<v Speaker 2>should be used immediately were quite different things.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So Senator Nick mckin has gone beyond what his

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<v Speaker 1>colleagues agreed to and beyond what basic cleaning were on

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<v Speaker 1>the ouse, either inside or outside the party is calling for.

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<v Speaker 1>What does he have to say about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, he's not taking a backward step. When it was

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<v Speaker 2>put to mc kim in an interview with the online

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<v Speaker 2>news site criche this week that he was quote pretty

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<v Speaker 2>alone unquoted in his demands, he said, and I'm quoting.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't help it. If the neoliberal worms have consumed

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<v Speaker 2>the minds of other people, that's their problem, not mine. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, pretty bolshy stuff. And of course, after the

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<v Speaker 2>interest rate decision came not on Tuesday, within minutes in

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<v Speaker 2>Mainbox plopped a press release from mckim's office in which

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<v Speaker 2>he's said a number of things that drove it home

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<v Speaker 2>to the Labor Party, one of which was Labor is

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<v Speaker 2>watching the Reserve Bank drive people to the wall and

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<v Speaker 2>doing nothing. So there's a good measure of ideology here.

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<v Speaker 2>But also a pretty good measure of politics as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you mentioned politics. This sounds like there's a fair

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<v Speaker 1>degree of politics and all of this mic. How is

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<v Speaker 1>this playing out politically for the Greens?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, one columnist called it trumpest, suggesting that it was

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<v Speaker 2>very like the sort of thing Donald Trump might come

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<v Speaker 2>up with. And I might add that this particular columnist

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<v Speaker 2>was not a notably right wing one, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>center left. Another headline suggested that the Greens were advocating

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<v Speaker 2>a hostile takeover the Reserve Bank, so you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>kind of get the tone from that. It has not

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<v Speaker 2>been well received pretty much across the board.

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<v Speaker 1>So what does this tell us about the Greens overall

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<v Speaker 1>strategy when it comes to dealing with the government. How

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<v Speaker 1>are they are approaching working with labor and are they

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<v Speaker 1>having a kind of impact that they want to have.

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<v Speaker 2>Well I spoke with the Greens leader Adam band about

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<v Speaker 2>all this, and he said that this wasn't some knee

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<v Speaker 2>jerk move or simplistic attack on the RBA. He pointed

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<v Speaker 2>to quite a long list of other things that he

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<v Speaker 2>said the government could do that might actually obviate the

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<v Speaker 2>need to lean on the Reserve Bank to lower interest rates.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he said that if the government did things

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<v Speaker 2>like introduced to vestiture powers to break up supermarkets that

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<v Speaker 2>were gouging, if it brought in a super profits tax,

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<v Speaker 2>if it did something about negative gearing, it did a

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<v Speaker 2>whole lot of things that the Greens think are fueling

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<v Speaker 2>the Australia's current inflation and cost of living crisis, then

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<v Speaker 2>there may be no need for the Reserve Bank to

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<v Speaker 2>use the frankly blunt instrument of interest rate rises to

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<v Speaker 2>try and deal with inflation. But all of this suggests

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<v Speaker 2>to me anyway that the Greens, maybe not including Nick McKim,

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<v Speaker 2>but the Greens generally are not really that's serious in

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<v Speaker 2>their demand that Jim Chalmers take control of monetary policy

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<v Speaker 2>away from the Reserve Bank, rather than kind of using

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<v Speaker 2>this for leverage to make a point about not monetary

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<v Speaker 2>policy but fiscal policy and government policies more broadly, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course to make political capital on the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a risk that the government will just peg

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<v Speaker 1>the Greens as being obstructionists or fringe and that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of framing of that narrative could hurt them politically.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Government is certainly portraying them in that way

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<v Speaker 2>there's a raft of quotes on the record of the

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<v Speaker 2>past week or so from you charmers.

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<v Speaker 4>The Greens that their primary task is to make up

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<v Speaker 4>numbers and put out press releases. We actually have to

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<v Speaker 4>run the place, run there, Katie gallaher Bank legislation. I

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<v Speaker 4>mean the Greens are out of control.

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<v Speaker 2>Anthony Albineasi.

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<v Speaker 4>What the Greens do is engage in populism, often in

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<v Speaker 4>conjunction with their partners in the Nooalition, the Liberal Party

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<v Speaker 4>in the National Party.

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<v Speaker 2>So certainly the government doing its best to white hand them.

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<v Speaker 2>Whether it works or not, I don't know. I mean

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.080
<v Speaker 2>they have clearly been appealing to a certain part of

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<v Speaker 2>the demographic, particularly those young people who are locked out

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<v Speaker 2>of the housing market. And I would note that at

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<v Speaker 2>the last election the Greens had a record result. They

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<v Speaker 2>did better than they ever have before. And the way

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<v Speaker 2>the polls are looking at the moment, it could well

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<v Speaker 2>be the case that neither of the major parties gets

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<v Speaker 2>a majority in its own right in the Parliament, and

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<v Speaker 2>that could place the Greens and the Teals and assorted

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<v Speaker 2>other cross benchers in a position of great power to

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<v Speaker 2>decide what gets up and what doesn't. As to how

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<v Speaker 2>this will play out, Whether it does them could or not.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine,

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<v Speaker 2>but I would leave it by quoting one of the

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<v Speaker 2>party sources that I spoke to, who said, the politics

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<v Speaker 2>of this is that people don't know what these changes

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<v Speaker 2>are about their bloody pissed off about their interest rates.

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<v Speaker 2>If that's the message that gets through, it's probably not

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<v Speaker 2>a bad thing for the Greens.

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<v Speaker 1>Mirk, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for yours.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Australia has joined the International

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<v Speaker 1>Corps for an immediate twenty one day ceasefire across the

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<v Speaker 1>Lebanon Israel border to provide a safe space for diplomacy.

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<v Speaker 1>The joint statement was negotiated on the sidelines of the

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<v Speaker 1>UN General Assembly. It says the recent fighting is intolerable

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<v Speaker 1>and presents an unacceptable risk of a broader regional escalation.

0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.120
<v Speaker 1>It comes as the chief of Israel's army said the

0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:41.000
<v Speaker 1>IDEF was preparing for a ground invasion into Lebanon and Quanas.

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<v Speaker 1>Travelers have been put on alert for flight disruptions as

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<v Speaker 1>engineers at Melbourne Airport walked off the job from Thursday morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Members of the quantas of engineers Alliance are pushing for

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<v Speaker 1>a fifteen percent pay rise following more than three years

0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.920
<v Speaker 1>of wage frees. The strikers expected to roll out across

0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 1>all major airports during the next two weeks. Seven Am

0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 1>was a daily show from Schwartz Media erran in the

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Saturday paper and hosted by me Daniel James and Ruby Jones.

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 1>It's produced by Shane Anderson, Zoltanfecho, and Zaia Tangral. A

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<v Speaker 1>technical producer is Atticus Bastow. We are edited by Chris

0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Dangate and Sarah mcvee. Eric Jensen is our editor in chief.

0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Our mixer is Travis Evans. A theme music is by

0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Boudier Azol for

0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>this week. Thanks for listening.