Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About Mastella Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Lamarquin, your host, and this year I have
Speaker 1: had the privilege of sitting down with some of the
Speaker 1: biggest names in the country. Because when Estralia's celebrities are
Speaker 1: ready to talk, they come to Something to Talk About.
Speaker 1: We're continuing to publish across the summer break and we'll
Speaker 1: be back with a brand new episode on January twelfth.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, each day for the next two weeks,
Speaker 1: we'll be revisiting some of your favorite episodes from the
Speaker 1: past year. And I'm happy to report that there have
Speaker 1: been a lot of popular episodes, but out of the
Speaker 1: fifty we released in twenty twenty four, we've narrowed it
Speaker 1: down to ten conversations to revisit over the summer break. Today,
Speaker 1: you'll hear from self confessed overshare Amanda Kella in an
Speaker 1: emotional interview that brought both her and me to tears
Speaker 1: when we spoke in June. Amanda opened up about how
Speaker 1: life has changed for her and her family since her
Speaker 1: husband of twin twenty five years was diagnosed with Parkinson's
Speaker 1: disease in twenty seventeen. Amanda didn't sugarcoat things. She gave
Speaker 1: an honest account of the struggles, the small wins, and
Speaker 1: the radical acceptance she's learnt to harness along the way.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot we can all learn from
Speaker 1: this insightful conversation with Amanda. Amanda Keller, welcome to something
Speaker 1: to talk about.
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be here. Hello.
Speaker 1: I wanted to open our conversation by asking about something
Speaker 1: that is really quite poignant. You revealed last year that
Speaker 1: your husband Harlee, had been diagnosed with Parkinson's around six
Speaker 1: years earlier. Do you mind if I start by as
Speaker 1: not at all, how you're all doing, how you're doing,
Speaker 1: of course, how Harley's doing in your two sons.
Speaker 3: I've bought a tissue just in case, because every time
Speaker 3: I talk about it, sometimes I'm fine, and sometimes it
Speaker 3: gets a bit overwhelming. Look, Harley's quite remarkable. He's so
Speaker 3: pragmatic with this. He just gets on with it. And
Speaker 3: I've gone through a phase of being angry because I'd
Speaker 3: say things like, oh, come on, stand upright, or your voice.
Speaker 3: You know, I knew what was it, he'd been diagnosed.
Speaker 3: I knew what was going on, but I found it
Speaker 3: hard to accept it all and I just feel now
Speaker 3: I'm very much on the path of acceptance, or that
Speaker 3: radical acceptance as we speak about. Some days that's a
Speaker 3: phrase that I'm trying to live and other days I
Speaker 3: do feel it. But we're both on the same page now.
Speaker 3: I think for a while I was kind of fighting it.
Speaker 3: And as I said, Harley is quite remarkable in his
Speaker 3: approach to this, and because of that, the boys just
Speaker 3: get on with it. To our sons, it's hard for
Speaker 3: them because I don't live at home anymore, and I
Speaker 3: see Harley every day.
Speaker 2: And was my son's.
Speaker 3: Twenty first birthday, and I got very emotional talking on
Speaker 3: air about how it felt to be going to that
Speaker 3: without him, and how he is normally the archivist of
Speaker 3: our lives and he would have done the audio visuals
Speaker 3: and he would have done a speech and all of this.
Speaker 3: I just felt wrong that I was going without him.
Speaker 3: And then not long into the evening, my friend said,
Speaker 3: has here, and as a surprise, he'd organized with a
Speaker 3: friend and a driver to get him there. And I
Speaker 3: still feel very emotional about it because I thought he
Speaker 3: I know how hard it was for him to do that,
Speaker 3: but how amazing that he did, how amazing that he did,
Speaker 3: and in that moment, I think the love I had
Speaker 3: for him and for our family. I just thought, he's
Speaker 3: still him, and he is still him, and the other
Speaker 3: physical things are going on around it, but the heart
Speaker 3: of him is still him, and the brain of him
Speaker 3: is still him, and it was a great reminder. So
Speaker 3: some other people were shock because I hadn't seen him
Speaker 3: for a while, but I was just so proud that
Speaker 3: he was vanity free. He'd thought it's too important for
Speaker 3: me to be here, and the rest of it just
Speaker 3: didn't matter.
Speaker 1: Did your son Jack whose twenty first birthday did he know?
Speaker 2: No, none of us was coming.
Speaker 3: None of us knew, and so it was a wonderful
Speaker 3: rush for all us to have him there. So Harley
Speaker 3: stayed for about an hour, was there for the speeches,
Speaker 3: and friends come up to say hello to him, and
Speaker 3: then he went home, and then you know, the dancing
Speaker 3: and the rest of it continued. But it was so important,
Speaker 3: and I'm so grateful that he appreciate the importance. And
Speaker 3: also the fact he didn't tell me he was coming
Speaker 3: kind of gave me a night off because I would
Speaker 3: have tried to. That's my problem is I try and
Speaker 3: micromanage everything and make everything all right for everybody, and
Speaker 3: this isn't going to be all right for everybody. So
Speaker 3: I'm exhausting myself. So the fact that I could turn
Speaker 3: up without having to think about how he was going
Speaker 3: to get there made my night so much easier too.
Speaker 1: What an amazing twenty first.
Speaker 3: Birthday gift, you know it absolutely And for him to say,
Speaker 3: how could I not be here?
Speaker 2: That will stay with Jack forever.
Speaker 1: I think every time there's a diagnosis in a family,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, everyone is often on a really steep
Speaker 1: learning curve, especially if it is something that you might
Speaker 1: not necessarily have even thought very much about or known
Speaker 1: very much about. Has it been, to put it mildly,
Speaker 1: an incredibly steep learning curve for.
Speaker 3: You, interestingly only through living through it. Harley's a big
Speaker 3: science head, so he knew the science, he knew the story,
Speaker 3: but he chose not to be doctor Google. And some
Speaker 3: friends at the beginning were saying, hey, here's some remedies
Speaker 3: I've seen, and it was showing people at the very
Speaker 3: tail end, and so he thought, I don't want those
Speaker 3: images in my head, so neither of us. I've remained
Speaker 3: quite pollannerish on this in that I haven't deep dived
Speaker 3: on the medical story. I'm living it as it happens,
Speaker 3: and part of that is choosing to be naive, almost
Speaker 3: like taking the easy way out, because if you're going
Speaker 3: to I don't know what preparedness does for you, apart
Speaker 3: from panic you so probably to my detriment, because maybe
Speaker 3: I should have been more prepared, but I'm learning as
Speaker 3: we go, and neither of us need to know more
Speaker 3: than that as we go.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Gosh, can I just object to the words easy
Speaker 1: way out?
Speaker 2: There's no easy way out?
Speaker 3: But I know what I'm like, and I'd be prone
Speaker 3: to overthinking and panic and trying to fix things so
Speaker 3: out of my control. And I saw a great woman.
Speaker 3: I see this fantastic woman. She's a kinesiologist, but she's
Speaker 3: a fabulous therapist. And she said to me very early on,
Speaker 3: you're in a boat beside Harley. You can't paddle his boat,
Speaker 3: and you take his agency away by trying to. Because
Speaker 3: we'd had a similar conversation when my son left home
Speaker 3: and I still want to cry about that too. She said,
Speaker 3: you have to let his boat go, and I said can.
Speaker 3: I'd be in the back of the boat, and she said,
Speaker 3: you can be in the back of the boat, but
Speaker 3: it's his, it's his shining light that's navigating it. And
Speaker 3: it's kind of similar with Harley in a way that
Speaker 3: I know I'm trying to I'm trying to make everything
Speaker 3: right for everybody, and A, you can't because you'll exhaust yourself,
Speaker 3: but B that's not what's right for everybody.
Speaker 2: So it is that radical acceptance.
Speaker 3: Thing of I'm in a boat alongside and she said
Speaker 3: to me, maybe all you have to do is to
Speaker 3: love him, and psychological that makes so much sense, and
Speaker 3: that's harder to live by sometimes, but that's there the
Speaker 3: thoughts I have in my head of trying to be
Speaker 3: alongside him and not be in his face and just
Speaker 3: let him deal it with the grace that he is.
Speaker 1: I think you've just given voice to and experience. So
Speaker 1: many people would relate to, Amanda, because that's I think.
Speaker 1: While we use the word helpless, isn't it when somebody
Speaker 1: we know is dealing with something that we can't make
Speaker 1: better for them? And it is part of what is
Speaker 1: so difficult, so difficult, these situations in life that are
Speaker 1: beyond our control.
Speaker 3: And I feel like I being selfish in not trying
Speaker 3: to in today and not fixing it for him? Is
Speaker 3: it okay just to be? And of course it is,
Speaker 3: and he'd prefer that. So taking a step back for
Speaker 3: all of us is something I'm trying to do.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you a little bit?
Speaker 1: Are you and Harley being married for a very long time?
Speaker 2: Twenty four years? Yesterday?
Speaker 1: Oh? Congratulations, thirty four years? And that is an amazing
Speaker 1: innings And every relationship, every long term relationship, every marriage
Speaker 1: has its chapters, seasons eras as Taylor Swift will probably
Speaker 1: call it. I'm sure we'll hear a song about that
Speaker 1: thirty four years from now. I imagine the different things
Speaker 1: that you and Harley have been through, like a lot
Speaker 1: of couples that you have children, you know, struggles with
Speaker 1: creating a family. You know, they're struggling with infertility. Then
Speaker 1: you've got young children, You've got periods where you're both
Speaker 1: dealing with chaos at work or great times at work,
Speaker 1: extreme busyness. I want to ask you a little bit.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, your boys aren't living at home now,
Speaker 1: you know, the empty nest, this particular situation, what you
Speaker 1: have navigated this past six years together with his diagnosis,
Speaker 1: is that something that has forged the partnership even more.
Speaker 1: And as a second part of that question, do you
Speaker 1: think it's something that you could have survived thirty four
Speaker 1: years ago, thirty years ago, twenty.
Speaker 2: Four years ago. Found the card the other day as
Speaker 2: a postcard.
Speaker 3: Of two older people asleep in deck chairs with their
Speaker 3: mouths might open on a cruise. And it must have
Speaker 3: been very early in our relationship. I remember it used
Speaker 3: to be on our window sill and as before we
Speaker 3: got married, and I said, here is mister and missus
Speaker 3: Harley Oliver, forty years from now at the old People's Home.
Speaker 3: I'll love you forever beyond two thousand, because we met
Speaker 3: it beyond two thousand, and I suddenly thought, we're at
Speaker 3: thirty four years. You click your fingers and you're there.
Speaker 3: And I take great pride. I don't want to be
Speaker 3: too weepy, but I take great pride in what we've navigated.
Speaker 3: And I do think in a way a friend of
Speaker 3: mine used the word there's a certain exquisite nature to
Speaker 3: the love when it's like this, an exquisite in the
Speaker 3: way it can be painful to life. You've got to
Speaker 3: lose tooth and you're pressing. It's an exquisite pain, but
Speaker 3: an exquisite love.
Speaker 2: And I'm really.
Speaker 3: Proud of how we are, well not always how I
Speaker 3: try and navigate it with him, how we are doing
Speaker 3: this as a team, and the fact that we are
Speaker 3: a team.
Speaker 2: And so we said, Yestad on our anniversary, we said, aren't.
Speaker 3: We lucky that despite all the rest of it, the
Speaker 3: nut of love is still there? And there probably have
Speaker 3: been times when you're too busy to actually think about that,
Speaker 3: whereas we've really had to choose that, and I know
Speaker 3: it is a choice, and I don't always express it.
Speaker 3: I can be impatient and cranky and all those things
Speaker 3: with it, but the nut of it is, I'm very
Speaker 3: conscious that we are leaning in to who we are
Speaker 3: now and leaning into all that this experience throws at us,
Speaker 3: which isn't all terrible. There's an absolute tightness between us now,
Speaker 3: and I'm sort of experiencing all of it.
Speaker 1: Speaking of exquisite love, which was a beautiful phrase that
Speaker 1: you just used exquisite pain to mentioned your sons. So
Speaker 1: of course, Jack, as we just talked about, turned twenty
Speaker 1: one recently and Liam is twenty three just last week.
Speaker 1: So the empty nest syndrome I don't know what we're
Speaker 1: calling it. In twenty twenty four, you may have a
Speaker 1: much more modern take on it. How are you and
Speaker 1: Harley feeling about that side of things?
Speaker 3: You know, I think the preparing for it and the
Speaker 3: imagining of it is worse than the reality of it.
Speaker 3: Liam left to go to new University in Newcastle four
Speaker 3: years ago, and I found that hard, really hard. And
Speaker 3: then Jack he went to live on campus but in Sydney,
Speaker 3: and I thought I'd never get used to it. But
Speaker 3: Jack's a party animal, and so meeting up at four
Speaker 3: in the morning and him getting home at two kind
Speaker 3: of had a slight clash to it. So to my shock,
Speaker 3: I found that it was okay. I found that it
Speaker 3: was okay. They're both now in Sydney. They don't, as
Speaker 3: I said, they don't live at home, but I see
Speaker 3: a lot more of Liam than I used to, and
Speaker 3: Jack makes a real effort to and talk most days,
Speaker 3: so I feel okay with it in a way I
Speaker 3: never pictured. The boys went to a school where they
Speaker 3: had an experience in year nine where they go away
Speaker 3: for a whole term half a year.
Speaker 2: Pretty much.
Speaker 3: I think it was they have an outdoors education for
Speaker 3: six months it's a long time. It's a long time,
Speaker 3: and it's when they're in year nine. So how old
Speaker 3: are you in year nine? Thirteen forteen.
Speaker 1: So my oldest son's in year nine, he's about to
Speaker 1: turn fifteen, yees.
Speaker 3: And I found that so challenging because it's the first
Speaker 3: time I had to put myself second to what was
Speaker 3: good for them. And they were allowed to make phone calls.
Speaker 3: There's no email, they had to write letters home, and
Speaker 3: whether they having a good time or a bad time,
Speaker 3: you weren't in charge.
Speaker 2: And I thought it was quite profound.
Speaker 3: Because the whole point of it was that as helicopter parents,
Speaker 3: suddenly the kids could prove themselves with each other and
Speaker 3: start to look for camaraderie in each other and strength
Speaker 3: that wasn't to do with your parents' perception of you.
Speaker 3: I found it quite profound the experience that they had.
Speaker 3: But I found that really hard. And that's one because
Speaker 3: they believe there is so little when they go, So
Speaker 3: I found that hard. And then the dreading. I thought
Speaker 3: it'd be those emotions again when they actually left home,
Speaker 3: but by the time they did, I was kind of
Speaker 3: ready for it, and now I'm so used to it.
Speaker 3: And now I can just go to bed early. I
Speaker 3: don't have to think about it anyone. You know, Harley's okay,
Speaker 3: I'm okay the end. So it's shockingly it's okay.
Speaker 1: My boys are turning thirteen and fifteen.
Speaker 3: You can't imagine when they're that age. You can't imagine
Speaker 3: a moment where they're not in your care.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, when you said six months, I know though I
Speaker 1: was six months, because even a night feels like it's
Speaker 1: so hard.
Speaker 3: And I always embarrassed Liam because I cry every time
Speaker 3: I tell this story. But at one point we were
Speaker 3: climbing up you have to the parents go and do
Speaker 3: hikes with the kids a couple of times during that
Speaker 3: and they're really hard going hikes. And at one point.
Speaker 2: Lim said, I'll help you get to the top here,
Speaker 2: and I had a flash too.
Speaker 3: Was very first day of school. We're at the top
Speaker 3: of the stairs. He said, I don't think I can
Speaker 3: do it, and I said, come on, I'll help you out,
Speaker 3: and I suddenly it was in a blink of an eye,
Speaker 3: which swapped and he was my guide. And that's the
Speaker 3: whole point of that whole experience. And I had it
Speaker 3: in that sentence, just amazing.
Speaker 2: Trying to teary through all of that.
Speaker 1: Obviously, it's at that moment where they over take you
Speaker 1: in height.
Speaker 2: Isn't that weird too?
Speaker 3: That is weird because we express love for a small boy,
Speaker 3: your children not being weird, but you know, cuddles and kisses,
Speaker 3: and suddenly when they're men, it's a very different physical dynamic.
Speaker 3: But the first time he's in a restaurant, I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: the waiters come behind me and it was Liam and
Speaker 3: I was so shocked that it was my thirteen year
Speaker 3: old who was taller than me.
Speaker 2: I got such a shock. And then that just keeps going,
Speaker 2: going and going.
Speaker 1: I listened recently to a voice message that one of
Speaker 1: my sons had left, and I picked it up, and
Speaker 1: have you ever had anything like this? He said, Oh, hi, Mom,
Speaker 1: And I'm listening thinking who is this man? It wasn't
Speaker 1: that boy's voice. So my younger boy, who's still twelve,
Speaker 1: sounds very different. That's another moment in terms of mom.
Speaker 3: And I've always tried to be gracious and accept all
Speaker 3: those moments. But also I lost my mom twenty years ago,
Speaker 3: and I want to say to her because I just
Speaker 3: left home, didn't look back, and I thought, did she
Speaker 3: feel like this and how I want to say, gee,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I was so ungracious, you know, And because
Speaker 3: I thought my life began when I left time, I thought,
Speaker 3: how dare my son's lives be beginning after me?
Speaker 2: How can that be?
Speaker 3: So I try and remind myself to be gracious, and
Speaker 3: if they don't return with text or something, I think, gee,
Speaker 3: you know we went overseas and never kept in touch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it looking back at those
Speaker 1: moments and seeing it through that lens when you talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, telling embarrassing stories. A lot of people parents
Speaker 1: are now navigating the oversharing on social media. Conversation for you, Amanda,
Speaker 1: you've worked in FM radio for a long time. Obviously
Speaker 1: you're one half of Jonesy and Amanda the Breakfast Show
Speaker 1: in Sydney, but you've worked for really all of their lives.
Speaker 1: Were there moments in the pre social media era when
Speaker 1: they were growing up where there were stories that you're
Speaker 1: telling me because everyone knows how that FM, particularly radio,
Speaker 1: for their moments where you got pushback from them during
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because that's exactly what it is. You
Speaker 3: mind your own life for moments to talk about that
Speaker 3: might that other people are going.
Speaker 2: Through as well. When the kids were little, you.
Speaker 3: Could say anything because they didn't know and didn't care.
Speaker 3: But I did become aware that you have to give
Speaker 3: some thought to other people hearing these stories. And there's
Speaker 3: one in particular where and here I am telling it again.
Speaker 3: But Jack's older now, and who cares. I hope he doesn't.
Speaker 3: But I was going through a school bag and there
Speaker 3: was one hundred sandwiches just squashed in the bottom. Week
Speaker 3: after we you just smashed them all in the bottom.
Speaker 3: I took them all, put them on the table and
Speaker 3: I took a photo and I said I should put
Speaker 3: this on social media. He said, oh, please don't. And
Speaker 3: I hate myself that I didn't. But I spoke about
Speaker 3: it on air the next day and Harley said he
Speaker 3: was driving Jack to school and Jack just put his
Speaker 3: head against the back of the seat and closed his eyes.
Speaker 3: And when I heard that, I just sobbed and sobbed
Speaker 3: and sobbed, and I thought he deserves to grow up
Speaker 3: in a house where he is safe from public scrutiny
Speaker 3: in any way. I just felt so terrible, So I
Speaker 3: knew he wanted he was learning guitar. I knew he
Speaker 3: wanted this little I think it was a ukulele. No
Speaker 3: one bought him a ukulele put on his bed. But
Speaker 3: the best thing of all of this was not trying
Speaker 3: to buy his acceptance, which was stupid. What happened was
Speaker 3: when he came home from school. I just said, I
Speaker 3: am so sorry, Please forgive me. I have no right
Speaker 3: to speak about you in a way that doesn't make
Speaker 3: you comfortable. And he said, that's okay, I don't mind.
Speaker 3: Before he went upstairs and said Ily brought him at present,
Speaker 3: so he'd said it was okay before he saw I'd
Speaker 3: bribed him. But that was such a valuable lesson to me.
Speaker 3: And now I will say, do you mind if I
Speaker 3: talk about this? Do you mind if I say this
Speaker 3: before I talk about stuff about them?
Speaker 1: And how did the ukulele go? I realized that it
Speaker 1: was not necessary in the end, because the good conversation,
Speaker 1: which of course is what all of us learn, isn't it,
Speaker 1: as parents, the best moment. So when you can go
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry, I stuffed up.
Speaker 2: I'm stuffed up.
Speaker 1: I'm such an important things.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: I mean not to be cliched about it. But that's
Speaker 1: such a gift, isn't it for a parent to give
Speaker 1: a child, I think.
Speaker 3: And for them also to forgive you rather than I
Speaker 3: just would have held a grudge.
Speaker 2: I was as such a grudge holder.
Speaker 3: If my mother ever admitted any moment of weakness or guilt,
Speaker 3: I would have just been surly about it, which he said, Oh,
Speaker 3: that's okay, and that was the.
Speaker 2: End of it.
Speaker 1: Coming up, Amanda opens up about her new podcast and
Speaker 1: her multiple work husbands. Amanda, you're now also hosting a
Speaker 1: podcast Double a Chattery with your best friend Anita McGregor,
Speaker 1: where you talk about quote smart, dumb, topical things. I
Speaker 1: love this because I don't know what your observations are
Speaker 1: as somebody that's obviously been a consumer of media like
Speaker 1: all of us your whole life, and then worked in
Speaker 1: the media for a long time. Is that these conversations
Speaker 1: about the serious and the trivial, the light and the shade,
Speaker 1: as they used to call it, still call it a
Speaker 1: newspaper world, is something that almost every woman I know
Speaker 1: does in their own conversation. You can be talking about
Speaker 1: really heavy, intense things, and then a few minutes later
Speaker 1: it might be about something that happened on the Sex
Speaker 1: and the City reboot or some gossip about Jennifer Lopez.
Speaker 3: Because that's life, isn't it, And that's how it is. Well,
Speaker 3: Anita and I. She's a forensic psychologist, which means that
Speaker 3: she's a psychologist that works within I guess, the legal
Speaker 3: or policing system. So she sees sex offenders, people who've
Speaker 3: transgressed in a variety of ways, who are in front
Speaker 3: of the courts, and she's a psychologist who sees them,
Speaker 3: and she's also working at a university teaching this the court.
Speaker 3: She runs a department, so she brings a very interesting
Speaker 3: spin to things. And she and I have gone on
Speaker 3: weekend walks for about fourteen years. We walk my dog,
Speaker 3: and that's exactly as you're saying, Sarah, what our conversations are.
Speaker 3: We'll say something incredible, she'll say something amazingly profound, like
Speaker 3: oh my god, I hadn't thought of that, and then
Speaker 3: we'll talk about picking your nose or something ridiculous. So
Speaker 3: we thought, other women like us are talking about this stuff.
Speaker 3: And I thought having worked in the media for a
Speaker 3: long time and worked on FM radio where you talk
Speaker 3: about certain topics and for a certain period of time,
Speaker 3: it'd be nice to see to have a longer chat
Speaker 3: about topics that Jones isn't necessarily interested in, but also
Speaker 3: that a forensic psychologist brings a different skew to, for example, recently,
Speaker 3: the Bond Diijunction stabbings. As someone who sees who works
Speaker 3: with perpetrators of domestic violence and violence of all kinds
Speaker 3: her very kind. She's a very kind hearted person. Who said,
Speaker 3: no one should be defined by their worst act. And
Speaker 3: I said, well, what if your worst act is an
Speaker 3: act of incredible violence against someone?
Speaker 2: She said, well, the courts will determine that.
Speaker 3: She said, my job is to work out why they're
Speaker 3: doing it and how they how to stop them doing it.
Speaker 3: So she has huge compassion, and she said, if we're
Speaker 3: just going to throw money at the victims, we're just
Speaker 3: going to be pulling people out downstream. Yes, we need
Speaker 3: to fund help for the victims, but we also, she said,
Speaker 3: it's very unpopular thinking we have to fund the perpetrators.
Speaker 3: We have to fund research way up here. We have
Speaker 3: to look at who they are, what they're doing. Why
Speaker 3: we have to spend our tax dollars looking at the men?
Speaker 3: And she said, not everyone's happy to hear that, but
Speaker 3: that was her experience, and I thought how great that
Speaker 3: we had this podcast to talk about what her skew
Speaker 3: of this was when she works with those people every day.
Speaker 3: So that's just one example of stuff. But also being
Speaker 3: of a certain age we are, we've done other topics
Speaker 3: on getting rid of your parents' stuff. I think we're
Speaker 3: the first generation to take our parents' stuff, and when
Speaker 3: we all left home, we had to take Auntie Mabel's
Speaker 3: dining room table and this and that. Now people are living,
Speaker 3: buying their own furniture, lighter, cheaper furniture, They're moving around more.
Speaker 3: They don't want grandma's old dining table or the corner
Speaker 3: table that's just sits there and doesn't really get used.
Speaker 3: There's no obligation to take it. And parents are downsizing
Speaker 3: and no one wants their stuff. So we kind of
Speaker 3: look at a variety of age related things as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, those two are very different and fascinating topics.
Speaker 1: Saying you find my imagine you've already done this, but
Speaker 1: working in radio for so long, but do you find
Speaker 1: that you're both sending yourself little notes in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night, writing something down. Something happens that you
Speaker 1: observe it and you think, oh, that's the thought, because
Speaker 1: I imagine it was something like that that triggered that conversation.
Speaker 2: Well, that's right.
Speaker 3: I think it was an article I might have seen
Speaker 3: in Washington Post or something. But often an eed, I'll
Speaker 3: be walking along and as I bend down to pick
Speaker 3: up a dog poo, we'll have discussed something. I say,
Speaker 3: take a note on your phone, and she'll send me
Speaker 3: a note that'll make no sense apart from us to us,
Speaker 3: there's this cryptic sentence we both understand what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Do you ever have moments where you don't, because I
Speaker 1: often send myself notes if i'm you know, like in
Speaker 1: the car and I like, send a voice to text
Speaker 1: or whatever on earth that's called I clearly didn't work
Speaker 1: on beyond two thousand and a man, because I'm still
Speaker 1: struggling with what's that thing called where you're putting words
Speaker 1: in a thing. And then I'll get home it'll be
Speaker 1: something like and I'll think, what was I trying to say?
Speaker 1: Because all I've had an idea for a shoot or
Speaker 1: an interview or something, and then I'm like, I have
Speaker 1: no idea what that jumble of letters I do that.
Speaker 3: Too, And I texted Anita just last week and said,
Speaker 3: you know how I wrote that thing to you. Do
Speaker 3: you remember what that meant? Because yes, it left my
Speaker 3: head long.
Speaker 1: Ago working with Anita on this podcast on air, in
Speaker 1: radio and TV, you have worked alongside a lot of men,
Speaker 1: so mention Brendan Jones, Jonesy and Amanda Andrew Denton, who's
Speaker 1: been a longtime collaborator on television radio on the Living Room.
Speaker 1: Of course, it worked couple people that are very much
Speaker 1: in the stellar ecosystem, including Dr Chris Brown and Barry Dubois.
Speaker 1: Is it nice to work alongside a woman because I
Speaker 1: don't pretend to know you very well, Amanna, but you
Speaker 1: are somebody that seems like what we call terrible phrase,
Speaker 1: you know, a girl's girl, and yet professionally you have
Speaker 1: found yourself in environments like a lot of us, where
Speaker 1: you are working with a lot of men.
Speaker 2: It's true, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: I hadn't even really thought about that, And it's interesting.
Speaker 3: With the radio, I've always been grateful never had never
Speaker 3: having to do that, he said, She said, kind of radio,
Speaker 3: or let's do girls topic and let's do boys topics.
Speaker 3: We bring things to the table that we just think
Speaker 3: are interesting. But it is different. I think to work
Speaker 3: with Anita because she and I find things different different
Speaker 3: we find things interesting from a different perspective, for the
Speaker 3: deep dive. FM radio doesn't always allow the deep dive,
Speaker 3: which is what I enjoy about it, and she and
Speaker 3: I have similar interests in the things we read, the
Speaker 3: things we glean, though she'll come at it from a
Speaker 3: different perspective, so that's different to FM. But you're right,
Speaker 3: I often have been that had been the ring leader,
Speaker 3: like in the living room. It's kind of the ring
Speaker 3: leader of a crazy circus with those guys, and I
Speaker 3: loved that role. But with Jonesy, I think we both
Speaker 3: approach it the same way. It's funny that I was
Speaker 3: talking to someone the other day and saying, why I
Speaker 3: think the show works is that he might say something
Speaker 3: that will infuriate me, and I'll say, I mean, we're
Speaker 3: very good friends, but he'll say something I'm saying, oh god,
Speaker 3: it just like such a nineteen eighties man, and yet
Speaker 3: I'll know that half our audience agree with him. So
Speaker 3: it's good for me to also work with someone who's
Speaker 3: different to me or different from me.
Speaker 2: As my mother would say.
Speaker 3: So that the soup in between the two of us
Speaker 3: hopefully covers more people than just me saying here's what
Speaker 3: I think our show should be about and him saying
Speaker 3: he's what I think it should be about. It's an
Speaker 3: interesting mix of all those things.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and also in this time where everyone's very antagonistic
Speaker 1: and the political debate and the tone, partly because of
Speaker 1: social media, but just there, it does seem to be
Speaker 1: a lot of anger around a lot of what we
Speaker 1: call quote unquote cancel culture. Is sometimes there's people raging
Speaker 1: against each other and not giving each other the benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt. The conversation you were talking about earlier
Speaker 1: that you and Anita had on the podcast about complicated
Speaker 1: and often unpopular conversations about how do we stop perpetrators
Speaker 1: of violence against women? How do we come up with solutions?
Speaker 1: And sometimes that is a lot more complex than just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I can't deal with this all men o. The problem.
Speaker 1: It's actually, as you said and Anita covered, investing money
Speaker 1: in really complicated solutions because that's how things get better.
Speaker 1: It's the same with our discourse, isn't it. If we
Speaker 1: don't allow that suit between.
Speaker 3: Us, And that's what's interesting about Anita because she has
Speaker 3: no media background. She's not even aware that there should
Speaker 3: be discourse, that we should have a different opinion, that
Speaker 3: we should be all that early FM radio stuff. That
Speaker 3: was you have to have different opinions, you have to
Speaker 3: pick a topic that you both going to feel differently
Speaker 3: about that she said, so I said earlier, I don't
Speaker 3: do that kind of radio, but particularly with Anita, you know,
Speaker 3: she's happy. We're happy to still laugh and agree with
Speaker 3: everything we say. I read this interesting book. I just
Speaker 3: loved it, and we did it one of the podcasts
Speaker 3: on a book called Doppelganger, and it's by Naomi Klein,
Speaker 3: who is a fabulous writer. And she said that she
Speaker 3: often used to be mistaken for Naomi Wolf, who was
Speaker 3: the beauty myth and a very early feminist. And she said,
Speaker 3: Naomi Wolf now has become an anti vaxxer, has become
Speaker 3: a right wing, fully right wing kind of supporter. And
Speaker 3: she said, by looking at their too divergent path, she said,
Speaker 3: is this where society is now? And she looked at
Speaker 3: why she thinks there's been this big schism. If that's
Speaker 3: the word, where are why is there no middle ground?
Speaker 3: And I took a lot out of that book because
Speaker 3: I thought I saw as a broadcaster, it's very easy
Speaker 3: to define yourself as not being something I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not an anti vaxer.
Speaker 3: Therefore I don't want to hear you if you're an
Speaker 3: anti vaxer, rather than tell me what your fears are
Speaker 3: and it's rationally discussed.
Speaker 2: So I kind of.
Speaker 3: Took a lot from that as to maybe lead to
Speaker 3: lean in a bit more. I know, when we had
Speaker 3: the ULARUS Statement from the Heart and the referendum vote
Speaker 3: on air, I thought, I don't actually want to interview
Speaker 3: people who are voting no, and yet probably wish I
Speaker 3: should have, because hearing people and being able to talk
Speaker 3: about this stuff makes us all better rather than makes
Speaker 3: us less. So I took a lot from that book.
Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, she's so right, isn't she? And I hadn't
Speaker 1: thought about that, the schism of the two miomis and
Speaker 1: the radicalization that come from intolerance as well, because if
Speaker 1: we shout each other down and we deny people platforms,
Speaker 1: then we're probably only in bolding.
Speaker 3: Them, emboldening them. And that's what she said happened. She
Speaker 3: said there's a lot of valid She was very pro vaxed.
Speaker 3: But she said, there's a lot of valid questions. People
Speaker 3: were asking, why do I my kids have to remask
Speaker 3: in school why it's a vaccine okay for pregnant women.
Speaker 3: But the minute any questions were asked, the pro vaccine
Speaker 3: people just shut them down. And so it was the
Speaker 3: anti vax movement who saw a vacuum and for the
Speaker 3: worst of reasons, thought here's a vulnerable opportunity and hijacked it.
Speaker 3: Really rather than so if we had all very rationally
Speaker 3: discussed it all as adults, it may have been a
Speaker 3: different result. It was that big soup in the middle
Speaker 3: that allowed everyone to radicalize.
Speaker 1: And it's also isn't it about those of us in
Speaker 1: the media having a bit of gumption and accepting that
Speaker 1: people might troll you for having a platform for complicated conversations.
Speaker 1: I refer back to that podcast that you and Anita
Speaker 1: had about maybe we do need to actually look at
Speaker 1: some substantial funding for perpetrators and how we stop these
Speaker 1: problems as well as supporting victims. Is that giving someone
Speaker 1: a platform or airing their views is not the same
Speaker 1: as endorsing those views.
Speaker 2: That's so true.
Speaker 3: I think my secret fear was if they sound rational.
Speaker 3: I won't know how to argue it. So it was
Speaker 3: my fear that I wouldn't be smart or canny enough
Speaker 3: that I'm not lee sales, I wouldn't have enough information
Speaker 3: to be able to counter what I don't agree with.
Speaker 3: But maybe just allowing them to say it, you're right,
Speaker 3: It's not a complicit acceptance, is just saying here's your opinion.
Speaker 1: And I think also what you've just nailed there to Amanda,
Speaker 1: is that that's part of it is that we now
Speaker 1: look at as a sport. And I'm saying this for
Speaker 1: all of us, is it's hard work to engage and
Speaker 1: listen and have your worldview challenge.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 3: But look at what's at stake when you look at
Speaker 3: Trump's America. Look at what's at stake if we blindly follow.
Speaker 1: And after the break, how Amanda really feels about Tom
Speaker 1: Gleeson after that Gold Logi drama five years ago. So
Speaker 1: we've talked about radio and the podcast, So talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about TV. You as we talked about the
Speaker 1: living Room, you also were co hosting Dancing with the
Speaker 1: Stars for a few years there. Your profile on TV
Speaker 1: was so huge, Amanda that you were nominated for a
Speaker 1: Gold LOGI in twenty eighteen, missed out that year to
Speaker 1: Grant Daniel You're Dancing with the Star's co host. And
Speaker 1: then the following year, twenty nineteen, which of course was
Speaker 1: the Tom Gleeson year. I mean Tom had played a
Speaker 1: role obviously in campaigning for Grant Daniel the year prior,
Speaker 1: just to bring our listeners up to speed who might
Speaker 1: not follow logis as much as those of us in
Speaker 1: the industry. And then of course in twenty nineteen a
Speaker 1: lot of people were really hoping that it would be
Speaker 1: your year, and Tom actually was campaigning for himself to
Speaker 1: sort of make a little bit of a point and
Speaker 1: a joke. But you missed out on the Gold LOGI
Speaker 1: that year. Five years later, What are your thoughts about
Speaker 1: that whole time?
Speaker 3: Tom and I very much made out peace. He reached
Speaker 3: out not long after that, and to be honest, I
Speaker 3: wasn't ready to talk to him too early on, and
Speaker 3: I wasn't bruised by him. I've always respected Tom and
Speaker 3: I knew he was being comedic, but the rules had
Speaker 3: changed in that people didn't campaign that way. And I
Speaker 3: find the logi's really hard. You have to spook yourself
Speaker 3: and that's what everyone's skill set. It's really uncomfortable, and
Speaker 3: he saw great comedic opportunities in there. But the hard
Speaker 3: thing for me was that the way it was played
Speaker 3: in the press was it was Tom versus me, and
Speaker 3: suddenly it went from what it became again this year,
Speaker 3: which was lovely, was aren't we all lucky to be nominated?
Speaker 3: And it didn't feel fun. That's what I feel. I
Speaker 3: don't feel ripped off in any way that I didn't win,
Speaker 3: but I feel ripped off that I couldn't enjoy the
Speaker 3: experience because every interview idea they said, eh, Tom's coming
Speaker 3: for you, and I thought, I'm going to be the
Speaker 3: butt of a joke that I don't even I'm not
Speaker 3: really part of here. So I felt that, yes, I
Speaker 3: was at the butt of a joke, and that just
Speaker 3: made the experience not feel fun. Whereas I have no problem,
Speaker 3: and to be honest, I'm not one of those people who.
Speaker 2: Thinks I should have a Gold LOGI not by any means.
Speaker 3: I'm quite sanguine about the fact I don't have one
Speaker 3: and I didn't need to win one to be nominated,
Speaker 3: And that sounds tripe, but it's so true to be
Speaker 3: nominated was such an honor, and I'm okay with that,
Speaker 3: but I wish I'd been able to enjoy the experience more.
Speaker 1: You're not on television at the moment. Do you see
Speaker 1: a role You've just said you're really not too bothered
Speaker 1: about it, but just from a forecast perspective and in
Speaker 1: terms of what your career goals are for the next five, ten,
Speaker 1: fifteen years, do you see another LOGI in your future,
Speaker 1: which is really also another way of asking another high
Speaker 1: profile role on television in your future?
Speaker 2: I'd like to think so.
Speaker 3: I've got some TV things in the works for the
Speaker 3: last second half of this year. But as much as
Speaker 3: I was sad to see The Living Room go, and
Speaker 3: I really love that show, and I think that had
Speaker 3: legs in it to keep going. Having said that, that
Speaker 3: schedule was getting so hard for me that I don't
Speaker 3: mind the calmer life I'm having now with the breakfast
Speaker 3: radio getting at four o'clock talking for three hours, all
Speaker 3: the rest of it that comes with that. But I
Speaker 3: don't know if I do a big, long stint on
Speaker 3: TV again. I like the idea of doing a project
Speaker 3: here and there. I think that would probably suit me better.
Speaker 3: But I hope to do more television. I love television
Speaker 3: and it's a very different skill set I think to radio.
Speaker 3: So i'd very much like to and I'm offered things
Speaker 3: all the time, but I just am choosing what and
Speaker 3: where and how, and with things with Harley too. Harley's
Speaker 3: always supportive, go and do what you need to do,
Speaker 3: but I want to make sure it's the right thing.
Speaker 3: If I'm not going to be at home or I've
Speaker 3: got longer hours, how do we make this work for
Speaker 3: all of us now? So yes, I think I am
Speaker 3: starting to choose some things, and i'd really love to
Speaker 3: think that big things were around the corner. TV wise,
Speaker 3: I'm certainly not finished with it yet.
Speaker 1: Well that is really good to hear, and I really
Speaker 1: mean that, And then I personally do there will be
Speaker 1: a LOGI and I know we're not making it Tom,
Speaker 1: but if there is another LOGI nomination, I'm having a
Speaker 1: couple of words.
Speaker 3: One of the things that also about the TOM thing,
Speaker 3: he made a joke about how crap the logis were
Speaker 3: and how ridiculous they were, and I thought that was
Speaker 3: a shame because it took away they are our awards.
Speaker 3: They know the travel industry has the rewards. The building
Speaker 3: industry have the rewards. Whether you think they're tried or not.
Speaker 3: These are our awards and yes they can be easily
Speaker 3: manipulated if you want to, but I think that everyone
Speaker 3: then we had COVID.
Speaker 2: Remember COVID. I don't know if you've heard. I'll remind
Speaker 2: you afterwards.
Speaker 3: But it's come back with joy for the industry again
Speaker 3: because everyone stay at home and watched television. The industry
Speaker 3: employed people, gave people a laugh, It entertained people during
Speaker 3: a really tough time and I think we really need
Speaker 3: to be championing the Australian television industry. So I'm glad
Speaker 3: we've come back from making fun of it to embracing
Speaker 3: it again.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think you're so right. It's that absence
Speaker 1: makes the heart grow fun. And when we didn't have
Speaker 1: the logis for two years, I think everyone from the
Speaker 1: naysayers through to the people that just love to mock it,
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, I really miss I think so, and
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 3: A kind of return. There was kindness supporting it when
Speaker 3: it came back.
Speaker 1: It's very true. I mentioned doctor Chris Brown because he
Speaker 1: has now obviously moved to seven Network. He's been a
Speaker 1: guest on something to talk about as well. He'll be
Speaker 1: doing Dancing with the Stars this year. Any advice for him?
Speaker 1: Are you proud to have seen the sequence being handed
Speaker 1: on the sequence?
Speaker 3: That show is always a great show, and Chris is
Speaker 3: such a great host. I will back Chris in anything.
Speaker 3: He is a rare beast in that he's he's so dark, humored,
Speaker 3: but he's so sharp and funny, so that the I
Speaker 3: think Julia Morris has said this too. He's the brain
Speaker 3: of a scientist, zipped up in that in that physical person.
Speaker 2: But the true Chris is.
Speaker 3: Warmer, fun darker, kinder than you imagine. I've been with
Speaker 3: him walking late at night through the streets of King's
Speaker 3: Cross after a party or something, and homeless people will
Speaker 3: come up to him and ask about their cats. And
Speaker 3: I've never seen anyone who will give more people, more
Speaker 3: time to more people than Chris does.
Speaker 2: He will always stop, he will always talk.
Speaker 3: He really is an animal lover and a nerded heart,
Speaker 3: and I'm always impressed by that.
Speaker 1: He's a nerdered heart.
Speaker 2: He is a nerdered heart.
Speaker 3: Don't ask him about his frequent fly card for Spotlight.
Speaker 3: He also loves a fancy dress party.
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, all right. Well, I must say I did
Speaker 1: not ask him about that when he was a guest
Speaker 1: on something to talk about. You're saying not to, but
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Now I really want to ask. I think maybe I should.
Speaker 1: I also mentioned Barry Dumbo, who's a homes columnist with Stella.
Speaker 1: You two have been also really good friends, and obviously
Speaker 1: when we profiled him once for Stella, he was talking
Speaker 1: to you a few times on the phone. He was
Speaker 1: just navigating a cat diagnosis. It's amazing because a lot
Speaker 1: of people think this industry, well, it can be ruthless.
Speaker 1: They're not wrong, and it can be shallow. But these
Speaker 1: are really substantial friendships that you have formed and are
Speaker 1: happening in the way that all good friendships do, seeing
Speaker 1: each other through the highs and the lows.
Speaker 3: And all of us and Miguel too. When I first
Speaker 3: started working there, I thought, God, how do I deal
Speaker 3: with Miguel. He was unlike any other character I'd ever met.
Speaker 3: He's ended up being one of my closest friends. So
Speaker 3: the four of us just went bang, which is such
Speaker 3: a shame. I think that TV didn't see the rarity
Speaker 3: of that chemistry. Well it did for ten years. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm not complaining ten years on a television show is
Speaker 3: an extraordinary thing. I mean, no way complaining that that
Speaker 3: show wrapped up. But it's so rare to have that
Speaker 3: reality of friendship in amongst all the.
Speaker 2: Rest of it.
Speaker 3: And also that Barry is so open and brave about
Speaker 3: what he's going through. He helps so many people. He
Speaker 3: really wears his heart on his sleeve, and in a way,
Speaker 3: one hand, he's completely invincible. On the other hand, he's
Speaker 3: so vulnerable when he talks about it. So, yes, he
Speaker 3: and I the minute I met him, I've sort of
Speaker 3: we soned each other's but I know you we felt
Speaker 3: we knew each other. So this show has given me
Speaker 3: three of the greatest friends of my life.
Speaker 1: You hosted beyond two thousand before we got to two thousand.
Speaker 1: Remember when we used to say the year two thousand
Speaker 1: spaceships incredible jet packs exactly. This is my final question.
Speaker 2: Where's your jet packed? Don't you want to know? I
Speaker 2: want to know?
Speaker 1: Where is it? Like I'm doing my own housework. Why
Speaker 1: don't I have a robot? Why are we still driving
Speaker 1: cars instead of little self contained spaceships.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a very good question. Sarah.
Speaker 3: I saw something recently that said, you know, with all
Speaker 3: these advancements in AI, why is AI doing the writing
Speaker 3: and the poetry and the creative work and we're doing
Speaker 3: the laundry in the housework.
Speaker 2: What's happened that we are.
Speaker 3: Doing the manual labor while doing the lofty, wonderful creative
Speaker 3: stuff the humans should be doing.
Speaker 2: But it's funny.
Speaker 3: Yes, we didn't see a lot of the technology coming,
Speaker 3: or if we did, there were such small increments, like
Speaker 3: the Internet. Things like that. Jones will often have a
Speaker 3: go at me saying you never saw the Internet coming.
Speaker 3: But it was a series of computers that I remember.
Speaker 3: The first one, I think was there was a coffee
Speaker 3: pot in a university lab and they put a camera
Speaker 3: on it because they wanted to see if it was empty.
Speaker 3: It was downstairs, they couldn't be bothered going there if
Speaker 3: it was empty. That was the very first kind of
Speaker 3: interactive camera system. And suddenly everyone's got one on their phone,
Speaker 3: constantly filming themselves, constantly doing all of this, often to
Speaker 3: our detriment. I think what's interesting is that we embraced
Speaker 3: all the technology. None of us said, should we get
Speaker 3: an ethicist on to talk about where this is going.
Speaker 3: But I know what I like about the fact we
Speaker 3: don't have flying cars and all that is that we're
Speaker 3: still human and humans are never going to be good
Speaker 3: enough to fly a car and deal with road rage
Speaker 3: in the air. I know that self driving cars exist,
Speaker 3: I still can't imagine that. So I think that despite
Speaker 3: all of that, we are still humans and that's a relief.
Speaker 1: We just as humans. We just need to have a
Speaker 1: word to AI, don't we yes to make sure that
Speaker 1: the AI generated technology is doing the menial labor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're doing the fun things.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, We've got to ask about.
Speaker 1: We do the fun things like having you in the
Speaker 1: podcast studio today. I'm glad it was me to talk
Speaker 1: to you today and not AI. When you come back
Speaker 1: and beyond two thy and fifty, Amanda or I may
Speaker 1: be replaced so much generated robot. So there we go.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the summer series
Speaker 1: or something to talk about. Make sure you're following us
Speaker 1: if you're not already, because we'll be revisiting some of
Speaker 1: your favorite episodes of the past year until we're back
Speaker 1: with the brand new episode on January twelfth.