1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Five Double a nighte with Matthew Pantellas. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 2: This story is interesting and I reckon we're going to 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: be hearing more about this. Think of the fellow in 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Victoria who killed the police and has been on the 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: run ever since. Sovereign Citizens and Australia's High Court Chief 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: Justice is warning a small but growing number of these 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: people charged with mostly minor matters like traffic infringements, are 8 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: increasingly clogging up our courts. What to do? Criminal lawyer 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: Rich Stanley is on the line. Rich, good evening, Thanks 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 2: for your time. 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Good evening, Matthews, thank you. 12 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 2: What can we do? 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: Oh geez, well, what we're dealing with here is, as 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: you've discussed, a sovereign system or a soft sea, what 15 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: laways referred to it as is pseudo law because it 16 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: isn't actual law. It's not real law. It's an ideology. 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: It's an ideology where somebody considers that there's a separation 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: between their physical stuff and the legal entity that state 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: knows as the person. And essentially it's a notout mechanism. 20 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: They say that the rules from regulations don't apply to them, 21 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: and the causing hazard in the court system at the moment. 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: Is it because they don't recognize Australian law that they 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: feel that, you know, somehow, of all the people in Australia, 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: it shouldn't apply to them because I don't believe it's real. 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: Well, whether they believe it or whether they just espouse it, 26 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: who knows. But it's what I see is a mechanism 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: that they adopt. If they are pulled over for parking 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: or traffic infringement, they say, well, I never agreed to 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: abide by these road rules, so you can't prosecute me 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: for these road rules. So then they'll end up going 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: through the court system. They'll appear before the cause and 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: they will refuse to accept that they are the person 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: that is actually meant to be appearing before the judge 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: that day. 35 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: Do they have a legal leg to stand. 36 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: On, Absolutely not a single leg. I mean, across most 37 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: of the major jurisdictions America, Australia, Canada, England, that hasn't 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: been one successful case that has been one on the 39 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: basis of the sovereign citizen arguments. 40 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 2: Okay, so basically the argument is put up probably then 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: you would expect to try and get out of paying 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: a parking part and just give it a crack. 43 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: Essentially, when all else has failed, they've got no other 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: way to move forward. They will say, right, well, I 45 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: didn't consent to be part of the rules and regulations 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: of this country, which is a ridiculous notion, because they 47 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: no doubt if they got hurt and they needed an ambulance, 48 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: they would accept the ambulance ride. Who's pays for the ambulance? 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: Are they paying their taxes? The tax payer pays for 50 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: the ambulance, So they seem to want it both ways. 51 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so I mean you sort of don't. Yeah, 52 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: you don't agree to abide by the laws when you're born, 53 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: but you don't have a say in that eye that side. 54 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: You know, here we all are and we are in 55 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: this country as citizens of the country. And that should 56 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: be the beginning and end of it. If they refuse 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: to accept a ruling, what happens to them They end 58 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 2: up in prison. Ultimately, I surprise is one potential outcome. 59 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, that's the end game. And as I said earlier, 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: the problem is they appeared before the courts, they refuse 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: to accept the jurisdiction of the course, They refuse to 62 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: even announce the name that they have with how you know, 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: there are examples where somebody would turn up and say, 64 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm not Rich Fanley, I'm the executor for rich family. 65 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: So they won't accept it's actually then before the courts 66 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: because they don't acknowledge the court's jurisdiction. So this is 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: the problem with clogging up the system, wasting court time, 68 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: valuable court time. Court time is precious enough. Access to 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: justice is already choked and problematic, but these types of 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: arguments coming through and making it so much more difficult 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: for or citizens to gain access to justice. 72 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: Can anything be done? Like, I don't know, so declared 73 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: sovereign citizens facing the courts automatically, I don't know what. 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: What can you do? You can't do anything, really can you, 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: Because then I suppose if you had that sort of 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 2: stipulation in mind or in place, they just deny they 77 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: were a sovereign citizen. 78 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: Right, Well, this is right, and you can't deny people 79 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: an ability to use the court. It's there for everybody 80 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: and you can't can't blanche deny them that. But the 81 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: problem is they have the right to use the court 82 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: system and nooriusy they will file multiple reams of documents 83 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: which not only over burdens the court administration staff, those 84 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: who have to deal with these filings and then serve 85 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: them on the other party. Imagine this if you were 86 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: in litigation with another party and you were paying a 87 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: lawyer to represent you. The other party is unrepresented and 88 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: they are just firing off hundreds, if not thousands of 89 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: letters and communications and emails. Well, you are having to 90 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: pay your lawyer to read through all of this to 91 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: determine if there is anything of use in it. Your 92 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: lawyer can't simply not read it and not deal with it. 93 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: So often it's a tactic to delay, confuse, and swamp 94 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: the system so well in an attempt to ultimately get 95 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: what they want. But today they haven't. 96 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask you, rich if you were asked 97 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: to buy buy a sovereign citizen to be the defense lawyer, 98 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: would you take it on? 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: And no, absolutely not. Fortunately, I have a choice as 100 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: to who I represent, and I would not waste the 101 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: course of time with such nonsense. 102 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, Well that's that's good tonight. I 103 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: suppose some lawyer's. 104 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: Mine potentially the vast majority of the sovereignsistent cases to 105 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: come before the court. I think it's about ninety percent 106 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: are self represented, and as to the other ten percent, 107 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I don't know a lawyer who's read them to the 108 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: sovereign system. I have had clients who, on the other 109 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: side of their matter is a sovereign system. So I 110 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: have first found experience as to how difficult they make 111 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: the whole process and how draining it is, particularly on judges, magistrates, 112 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: Judges who have to sit there all day and deal 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: with matters and they're seeing these cases on a daily basis, 114 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: and particularly particularly down at the magistrate's court level all day. 115 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: They're seeing this type of argument. And the people that 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: are coming in with this sovereign citizen ideology, they are 117 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: very unique. They have this bombarding of correspondence tactic. They 118 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: often bring supporters into court with them. They're very assertive, 119 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: theatrical and very confrontational behavior. Even if you can check 120 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: this on YouTube. I think it was in America, but 121 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: a sovereign system stood up and tried to arrest the judge. 122 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: You can see how disruptive this is to the judicial 123 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: cystm them, particularly when there's another twenty or thirty cases 124 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: waiting to be heard that morning. Yeah, and of course 125 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: is having to deal with this type of arguments. 126 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: How did that guy? What happened? I in America? I 127 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: mean there are marshals and all sorts of things in court, 128 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: aren't there? So how how did that turn out? 129 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: Oh? Jeez, I hate to think how that turned out. 130 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: You probably got twenty years. Oh yeah, there you go. 131 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: Unreal. Okay, So I suppose I don't know how we 132 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: put a stop to it, but perhaps it just won't stop. 133 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: The courts will be tied up forever in the day 134 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: by people trying to claim despite being born here and 135 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: growing up here, they aren't applicable in terms of Australian laws. 136 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: Well, that that's right. I mean there has been suggestions 137 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: of perhaps there needs to be the creation of a 138 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: sovereign systems and register. So once you've brought such an 139 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: action before the court, you go on to a register 140 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: of some sort. You could thinking it through. You could 141 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: have some further checks and balances with in the court 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 1: registry to try and stop them filing this massive volume 143 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: of pleadings and nonsense after Davids etc. That might assist, 144 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: but obviously you have to pay for that. You have 145 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: to man that service to try and put that safety 146 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: valve in at that level. But it's an ever increasing problem. 147 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: It's increased exponentially in the last five years since COVID, 148 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: and it's a real problem at the moment, and it's 149 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: really hurting the judicial system. And my understanding is that 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: the judicial officers are becoming very, very tired of it. 151 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: I bet they are. Rich, thank you for your time tonight. 152 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: That's a nice little summary of just an insane situation. Frankly, 153 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: appreciate you coming on. 154 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure Matthia for that. 155 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: Rich Stanley criminal lawyer, co founder and partner Stanley and 156 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: Co lawyers. And that's incredible, isn't it. And you think 157 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: about courts and the Beck clock, the becklock to hear, 158 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: you know, cases really should be resolved and they're part 159 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: of the delay. Is this people going to court who 160 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: don't believe the law applies to them. It's just just crazy.