1
00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281
Speaker 1: Approache production.

2
00:00:10,481 --> 00:00:14,521
Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of suicide and self harm.

3
00:00:14,721 --> 00:00:16,681
Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised.

4
00:00:22,481 --> 00:00:24,881
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host

5
00:00:24,921 --> 00:00:29,481
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. In nineteen sixty three, perthman John Button was

6
00:00:29,521 --> 00:00:33,401
Speaker 2: wrongly convicted of the killing of his girlfriend, Rosemary Anderson.

7
00:00:34,081 --> 00:00:37,081
Speaker 2: In Perth Today, a youth was arrested and charged with

8
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,361
Speaker 2: wilfully murdering a young girl. On the night Rosemary died,

9
00:00:41,801 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 2: she and Button were playing cards when they had an argument,

10
00:00:44,881 --> 00:00:48,641
Speaker 2: Andison stormed out and Button later found her lying critically

11
00:00:48,641 --> 00:00:51,681
Speaker 2: injured by the side of the road. He drove her

12
00:00:51,681 --> 00:00:54,521
Speaker 2: to a doctor's surgery, but she later died.

13
00:00:54,281 --> 00:00:55,161
Speaker 1: From her injuries.

14
00:00:55,921 --> 00:00:59,961
Speaker 2: Under intense pressure from police, which included physical assault, John

15
00:01:00,001 --> 00:01:03,121
Speaker 2: Button confessed to the hit and run murder. He was

16
00:01:03,161 --> 00:01:06,961
Speaker 2: eventually convicted of manslaughter and spent the next five years

17
00:01:06,961 --> 00:01:11,601
Speaker 2: in prison. Despite maintaining his innocence and protesting his conviction

18
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,721
Speaker 2: for years, he was released in December nineteen sixty seven.

19
00:01:16,161 --> 00:01:20,560
Speaker 2: Throughout his incarceration, police had a confession from a serial killer,

20
00:01:20,961 --> 00:01:23,601
Speaker 2: Eric Edgar Cook, that he killed Anderson.

21
00:01:24,121 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 3: Admissions from serial killer Eric Edgar Cook were recorded but ignored.

22
00:01:30,121 --> 00:01:34,321
Speaker 2: However, he was not taken seriously. Cook confessed numerous times

23
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,521
Speaker 2: to murdering Rosemary Anderson, including a gallow's confession just fifteen

24
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,641
Speaker 2: minutes before being executed on the twenty sixth of October

25
00:01:42,801 --> 00:01:44,041
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four.

26
00:01:44,761 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 1: He revealed the dark power inside his head that pushed

27
00:01:48,241 --> 00:01:50,001
Speaker 1: him to unspeakable acts.

28
00:01:50,641 --> 00:01:53,321
Speaker 2: John spent the next three decades living with the stain

29
00:01:53,401 --> 00:01:56,561
Speaker 2: of his wrongful conviction and trying to prove his innocence.

30
00:01:57,161 --> 00:01:59,241
Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, after.

31
00:01:59,001 --> 00:02:02,721
Speaker 2: A public campaign by a journalist Estelle Blackburn, the Court

32
00:02:02,721 --> 00:02:07,081
Speaker 2: of Criminal Appeal quashed Button's conviction, rely on fresh evidence

33
00:02:07,321 --> 00:02:10,281
Speaker 2: that included testimony from vehicle crash experts.

34
00:02:10,681 --> 00:02:12,961
Speaker 1: The Cook was most likely the culprit.

35
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,681
Speaker 3: The Western Australian Government has approved a four hundred and

36
00:02:16,721 --> 00:02:21,281
Speaker 3: sixty thousand dollars ex gratia payment to John Button in

37
00:02:21,321 --> 00:02:24,361
Speaker 3: recognition of the serious injustice he suffered.

38
00:02:25,761 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 2: Now eighty one, John Button has received only poultry compensation

39
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,041
Speaker 2: for his ordeal and has dedicated himself to helping others

40
00:02:34,161 --> 00:02:37,881
Speaker 2: wrongly convicted. And it's my pleasure to welcome John Button

41
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,681
Speaker 2: to the Real Crime Studio. Good afternoon, John, Oh, good afternoon, Adam.

42
00:02:44,281 --> 00:02:46,921
Speaker 2: Thanks for your time today. What an amazing story. It's

43
00:02:46,921 --> 00:02:50,361
Speaker 2: like something out of a film, except you were living it. Well,

44
00:02:50,441 --> 00:02:53,641
Speaker 2: that's feel like, yes it is. What else can you say?

45
00:02:54,081 --> 00:02:57,361
Speaker 2: It's amazing. It could have done two things. It could

46
00:02:57,361 --> 00:03:00,001
Speaker 2: have sent me off to an early grave of it

47
00:03:00,041 --> 00:03:02,800
Speaker 2: could have made me as a man, So I decided

48
00:03:02,881 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 2: to take the latter and fight it until I succeed. Yeah,

49
00:03:07,161 --> 00:03:10,961
Speaker 2: and you've dedicated yourself to helping others rather than dwelling

50
00:03:11,001 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 2: on the injury that was done to you. How much

51
00:03:13,281 --> 00:03:16,481
Speaker 2: compensation have you been paid for this wrongful conviction?

52
00:03:17,081 --> 00:03:20,121
Speaker 4: Well, the government paid me four hundred thousand plus sixty

53
00:03:20,201 --> 00:03:24,801
Speaker 4: thousand for expenses. But the problem with that was, even

54
00:03:24,841 --> 00:03:28,041
Speaker 4: though the WA government wanted it to give me a

55
00:03:28,081 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 4: good life for the next twenty years after receiving it,

56
00:03:31,201 --> 00:03:35,041
Speaker 4: the federal government, through Center Link, deemed any money that

57
00:03:35,121 --> 00:03:38,761
Speaker 4: I drew out that they'd reduced our pension, my wife

58
00:03:38,841 --> 00:03:40,041
Speaker 4: and my age pension.

59
00:03:40,561 --> 00:03:41,881
Speaker 1: So every time we.

60
00:03:41,881 --> 00:03:44,201
Speaker 4: Drew one thousand dollars out of the bank, they deducted

61
00:03:44,241 --> 00:03:47,001
Speaker 4: eight hundred dollars a month off our pension. So our

62
00:03:47,081 --> 00:03:49,441
Speaker 4: only option was to try and use up all the

63
00:03:49,481 --> 00:03:53,361
Speaker 4: money as quickly as possible on not actually necessary things,

64
00:03:53,361 --> 00:03:56,281
Speaker 4: but on whatever we could to get rid of it,

65
00:03:56,321 --> 00:03:58,801
Speaker 4: whilst we would have lost the lot right.

66
00:03:58,921 --> 00:04:01,641
Speaker 2: I mean when you look at payments being made to

67
00:04:01,721 --> 00:04:04,561
Speaker 2: other people who were wrongly convicted, like Lindy Chamberlain, she

68
00:04:04,641 --> 00:04:07,641
Speaker 2: was paid one point two million in the early nineties.

69
00:04:07,881 --> 00:04:10,441
Speaker 2: Kathleen Folbig in New South Wales, it was accused of

70
00:04:10,481 --> 00:04:14,121
Speaker 2: killing her children wrongly and then released, she was paid

71
00:04:14,161 --> 00:04:17,801
Speaker 2: two million, and that's been called a travesty. So really,

72
00:04:18,281 --> 00:04:22,681
Speaker 2: you capt five years and a highly qualified payment was

73
00:04:22,721 --> 00:04:23,321
Speaker 2: all you got.

74
00:04:24,641 --> 00:04:27,601
Speaker 4: It was I had the assurance for Attorney General then

75
00:04:27,641 --> 00:04:30,801
Speaker 4: Jim McGinty when he told me, he said, John, this,

76
00:04:30,801 --> 00:04:33,561
Speaker 4: this state owes you in excess of fifteen million dollars

77
00:04:33,561 --> 00:04:35,761
Speaker 4: to what they've done to you, but you're not going

78
00:04:35,801 --> 00:04:38,561
Speaker 4: to get it. So I had to be happy we've

79
00:04:38,561 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 4: got a head because there is no law by which

80
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,241
Speaker 4: you can claim anything. They do not have to give

81
00:04:45,281 --> 00:04:47,921
Speaker 4: you anything whatsoever. They don't even have to give you

82
00:04:47,961 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 4: an apology. The letter that comes with the payment, the

83
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,601
Speaker 4: excursive payment, says it's only symbolic in nature and it

84
00:04:55,641 --> 00:04:59,161
Speaker 4: does not constitute any form of wrongdoing on their behalf.

85
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:01,681
Speaker 1: Wow.

86
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,801
Speaker 4: So even after my johnovation, my son to the Commissioner

87
00:05:05,801 --> 00:05:09,001
Speaker 4: of Police and said, now that my father's been fully exonomated,

88
00:05:09,401 --> 00:05:12,161
Speaker 4: well at least apologize. And they wrote back and said,

89
00:05:12,521 --> 00:05:14,161
Speaker 4: we've got nothing to apologize for.

90
00:05:15,401 --> 00:05:20,361
Speaker 2: Even though they had Cook's confession in their keeping four

91
00:05:20,481 --> 00:05:24,561
Speaker 2: years and let you stay in prison all that time.

92
00:05:24,761 --> 00:05:27,200
Speaker 2: I mean, surely there's a trauma that goes with that

93
00:05:27,201 --> 00:05:29,481
Speaker 2: that it's hard to recover from.

94
00:05:30,361 --> 00:05:33,921
Speaker 4: Well you think so, and twenty years ago I would

95
00:05:33,961 --> 00:05:37,281
Speaker 4: absolutely agree with you. But as I said, I decided

96
00:05:37,281 --> 00:05:39,361
Speaker 4: to find a way out of it. I was not

97
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,801
Speaker 4: going to let it beat me. In fact, this started

98
00:05:41,841 --> 00:05:44,001
Speaker 4: back in Femanal Prison. I used to look out of

99
00:05:44,041 --> 00:05:47,601
Speaker 4: my cell each night across over the other side of

100
00:05:47,641 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 4: the wall Femanal Prison wall, there was.

101
00:05:49,641 --> 00:05:51,761
Speaker 1: A monument up on a hill with a light on it.

102
00:05:52,241 --> 00:05:53,921
Speaker 4: They used to look at that every night and say,

103
00:05:53,921 --> 00:05:56,121
Speaker 4: one day, I'm going to stand there and look back

104
00:05:56,161 --> 00:05:58,841
Speaker 4: and say I beat you. And I did the first

105
00:05:58,841 --> 00:06:01,721
Speaker 4: part I got out, So I've had that attitude. I

106
00:06:01,801 --> 00:06:04,721
Speaker 4: was never going to let them win. But more than that,

107
00:06:05,201 --> 00:06:09,721
Speaker 4: I wasn't going to allow myself to be angry or upset.

108
00:06:10,921 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 1: I'd lost enough time as it was.

109
00:06:12,961 --> 00:06:14,921
Speaker 4: I was not going to lose another minute of my

110
00:06:15,081 --> 00:06:18,361
Speaker 4: life to anger or anything negative. So even though I

111
00:06:18,481 --> 00:06:22,281
Speaker 4: fight and keep fighting, I do so with a happy heart.

112
00:06:22,601 --> 00:06:24,521
Speaker 4: I refuse to allow it to draw me down.

113
00:06:25,601 --> 00:06:29,121
Speaker 2: It's fantastic When people look at these stories that begin

114
00:06:29,641 --> 00:06:33,801
Speaker 2: with a forced confession, they find it hard to understand

115
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,840
Speaker 2: or even believe that someone will confess to a crime

116
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 2: they haven't done.

117
00:06:38,241 --> 00:06:39,721
Speaker 1: Take us back to that.

118
00:06:39,801 --> 00:06:42,841
Speaker 2: Night and the circumstances which led to you to make

119
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:43,561
Speaker 2: that decision.

120
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,641
Speaker 4: Well, I suppose it really starts with me finding those

121
00:06:47,641 --> 00:06:49,481
Speaker 4: from his body on the edge of the road. It

122
00:06:49,601 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 4: had that argument, a simple little argument was nothing. She'd

123
00:06:54,001 --> 00:06:57,041
Speaker 4: just got up said okay, I'm going home. She didn't

124
00:06:57,081 --> 00:06:58,801
Speaker 4: mention the sund bad. You can come down and see

125
00:06:58,841 --> 00:07:02,121
Speaker 4: me tomorrow. So it wasn't sort of it's over. But

126
00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:03,961
Speaker 4: I still didn't want to walk in home in the dark.

127
00:07:04,041 --> 00:07:06,601
Speaker 4: So when I caught up with her, well, when I

128
00:07:06,681 --> 00:07:09,401
Speaker 4: found her, she was lying on the side of the road,

129
00:07:10,041 --> 00:07:12,681
Speaker 4: about four meters off the edge of the road. She

130
00:07:12,841 --> 00:07:16,121
Speaker 4: had a cut above a right eye that was bleeding profusely.

131
00:07:16,681 --> 00:07:19,441
Speaker 4: She was unconscious. I picked her up, and from that

132
00:07:19,561 --> 00:07:22,881
Speaker 4: moment I thought, oh God, don't let anything happen. To you,

133
00:07:22,881 --> 00:07:28,081
Speaker 4: you know, please wake up. So that was my whole thought.

134
00:07:28,161 --> 00:07:30,961
Speaker 4: It was about her. I rushed off to the doctor's surgery.

135
00:07:31,001 --> 00:07:33,841
Speaker 4: I remember doing about eighty five miles an hour to

136
00:07:33,881 --> 00:07:36,601
Speaker 4: get there as fast as I could, and then the

137
00:07:36,641 --> 00:07:39,161
Speaker 4: doctor called an ambulance. She was taken off. I waited

138
00:07:39,161 --> 00:07:42,401
Speaker 4: for the police. The police came down. Now from that moment,

139
00:07:42,801 --> 00:07:45,881
Speaker 4: the police walked past my car and the front of

140
00:07:45,921 --> 00:07:49,081
Speaker 4: my car was damaged. The grill was damaged. They saw

141
00:07:49,121 --> 00:07:51,561
Speaker 4: what appeared to be spots of blood on the bonnet.

142
00:07:52,281 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 4: When they said what happened, I said, we had an argument. Well,

143
00:07:55,441 --> 00:07:59,321
Speaker 4: that detects it. That solved the whole case into five seconds.

144
00:07:59,801 --> 00:08:01,921
Speaker 4: The problem was the damage to the front of my car.

145
00:08:02,001 --> 00:08:05,681
Speaker 4: I'd run into another vehicle a month earlier, and all

146
00:08:05,721 --> 00:08:09,201
Speaker 4: that damage was through that. The blood on the car

147
00:08:09,241 --> 00:08:11,241
Speaker 4: would eye when I picked raise me up, had blood

148
00:08:11,281 --> 00:08:13,961
Speaker 4: all over me, and I put blood on the car.

149
00:08:14,681 --> 00:08:18,321
Speaker 4: And yes, we had the argument, but I did what

150
00:08:18,481 --> 00:08:20,521
Speaker 4: I'd always been brought up to do. I've got to

151
00:08:21,281 --> 00:08:24,081
Speaker 4: obey the authorities and work with them, do whatever I

152
00:08:24,121 --> 00:08:27,881
Speaker 4: could to help them. So I went back to the

153
00:08:27,921 --> 00:08:30,841
Speaker 4: station with them. On the way, we stopped off at

154
00:08:31,041 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 4: where I found her. I pointed out where she was

155
00:08:33,121 --> 00:08:36,961
Speaker 4: laying on the road with the blood, and I pointed

156
00:08:36,961 --> 00:08:38,881
Speaker 4: out to them the pool of blood in the sand

157
00:08:38,881 --> 00:08:41,641
Speaker 4: about four meters off the edge of the road. So

158
00:08:42,201 --> 00:08:45,641
Speaker 4: we went back to the station. They wrote out a

159
00:08:45,721 --> 00:08:49,001
Speaker 4: very quick, simple statement. We had the argument. I found.

160
00:08:49,001 --> 00:08:51,841
Speaker 4: He took it to the doctor's surgery, and I remember

161
00:08:51,881 --> 00:08:54,481
Speaker 4: the detective looking at it and putting it down, said

162
00:08:54,841 --> 00:08:57,161
Speaker 4: we don't want that, we want a confession. Why did

163
00:08:57,161 --> 00:09:00,481
Speaker 4: you do it? It was that point I thought, my god,

164
00:09:00,521 --> 00:09:05,921
Speaker 4: what is this? I never known place like this? Always friends,

165
00:09:05,961 --> 00:09:09,601
Speaker 4: So you asked the time from all directions from I

166
00:09:09,641 --> 00:09:13,121
Speaker 4: couldn't understand it. I just turned nineteen on that day.

167
00:09:13,881 --> 00:09:16,761
Speaker 4: I was beginning to panic and worry, and as well

168
00:09:16,801 --> 00:09:18,921
Speaker 4: as buying about raise mey, wanting to get away to

169
00:09:18,961 --> 00:09:23,801
Speaker 4: see her. I was very confused. They kept throwing these

170
00:09:23,921 --> 00:09:26,321
Speaker 4: questions at me for hours. So why did you do it?

171
00:09:26,401 --> 00:09:28,321
Speaker 4: Must have been you look at the damage of the car,

172
00:09:28,481 --> 00:09:30,001
Speaker 4: blood on the car of coursed it with you.

173
00:09:30,321 --> 00:09:32,241
Speaker 1: Did you mean to knock it down?

174
00:09:32,681 --> 00:09:35,361
Speaker 4: And after a few hours of this I suddenly felt

175
00:09:35,761 --> 00:09:39,841
Speaker 4: a couple of sharp punches. I can't remember just much

176
00:09:39,841 --> 00:09:42,041
Speaker 4: about that. I do remember being under the table and

177
00:09:42,041 --> 00:09:43,641
Speaker 4: they called me out and put me back in the chair,

178
00:09:44,601 --> 00:09:47,081
Speaker 4: and not been a very brave person, I thought, how

179
00:09:47,081 --> 00:09:49,241
Speaker 4: can I get out of this? I want this to stop.

180
00:09:49,441 --> 00:09:52,521
Speaker 4: And I said very quickly, how's raised me? And I said, oh,

181
00:09:52,521 --> 00:09:55,121
Speaker 4: she's dead. She died a couple of hours ago. Well,

182
00:09:55,161 --> 00:09:58,761
Speaker 4: at that point my world collapse. We planned to get

183
00:09:58,801 --> 00:10:02,921
Speaker 4: married on the eighteenth birthday, which worked all our lives out,

184
00:10:03,241 --> 00:10:07,641
Speaker 4: everything was set furtherantastic future, and all of a sudden,

185
00:10:07,641 --> 00:10:10,841
Speaker 4: with those few words, my life had gone. I didn't care.

186
00:10:11,001 --> 00:10:12,761
Speaker 4: I just wanted to get out of there. And I said, oh, right,

187
00:10:12,841 --> 00:10:16,161
Speaker 4: whatever you like. I don't care. Just right, I'll sign

188
00:10:16,241 --> 00:10:19,241
Speaker 4: whatever you want me to sign. So they wrote out

189
00:10:19,281 --> 00:10:25,121
Speaker 4: of confession, I turn humorous now. But when I wroted out,

190
00:10:25,161 --> 00:10:26,841
Speaker 4: they said to me, and you were doing forty five

191
00:10:26,881 --> 00:10:29,681
Speaker 4: miles an hour, and I stopped there because the speed

192
00:10:29,681 --> 00:10:32,801
Speaker 4: limits thirty five and I didn't want to recard good speeding,

193
00:10:32,881 --> 00:10:34,361
Speaker 4: so I asked them if they could offer that to

194
00:10:34,441 --> 00:10:37,361
Speaker 4: thirty five. I know it's that humorous now, but at

195
00:10:37,401 --> 00:10:41,681
Speaker 4: the time it was important. Well, it shows your frame

196
00:10:41,721 --> 00:10:44,641
Speaker 4: of mind at that moment. You were confused and the.

197
00:10:44,601 --> 00:10:49,041
Speaker 2: Gravity of the situation is not necessarily landing with you.

198
00:10:50,281 --> 00:10:51,481
Speaker 1: It isn't.

199
00:10:51,681 --> 00:10:54,921
Speaker 4: My whole thought was that they could not do anything

200
00:10:54,961 --> 00:10:58,241
Speaker 4: if I hadn't committed the time, A confession meant nothing

201
00:10:58,841 --> 00:11:00,841
Speaker 4: because so it's not guilty, I would not be convicted.

202
00:11:00,921 --> 00:11:04,121
Speaker 4: So a confession got me out of there and it

203
00:11:04,361 --> 00:11:06,641
Speaker 4: didn't worry me. So they wrote out the confession.

204
00:11:06,681 --> 00:11:07,201
Speaker 1: I signed it.

205
00:11:07,241 --> 00:11:10,201
Speaker 4: They charged me with wilfel murder. But this is what

206
00:11:10,361 --> 00:11:13,481
Speaker 4: the problem started at that point. To see, after charge

207
00:11:13,521 --> 00:11:18,081
Speaker 4: with will for murder, they got their traffic examiner, Trevor Condrean,

208
00:11:18,401 --> 00:11:21,281
Speaker 4: a young policeman. He went down examined my car and

209
00:11:21,321 --> 00:11:23,201
Speaker 4: after two hours he came back to them and he

210
00:11:23,241 --> 00:11:26,721
Speaker 4: said this car hadn't hit anybody. And as Trevor told

211
00:11:26,761 --> 00:11:30,241
Speaker 4: me forty years later, when he told them that, they

212
00:11:30,281 --> 00:11:32,161
Speaker 4: turned under him and said, Trevor, if you want a

213
00:11:32,201 --> 00:11:35,441
Speaker 4: job here Monday morning, you better say it has because

214
00:11:35,481 --> 00:11:36,921
Speaker 4: we've got the chat his confess.

215
00:11:37,161 --> 00:11:37,601
Speaker 1: That's it.

216
00:11:38,441 --> 00:11:41,161
Speaker 4: So admitually he didn't say in court that my car

217
00:11:41,201 --> 00:11:44,641
Speaker 4: hadn't hit anyone, but he didn't either say that it had,

218
00:11:44,721 --> 00:11:48,041
Speaker 4: so it just gave it basically poured and.

219
00:11:48,081 --> 00:11:51,961
Speaker 2: That should have given you the benefit of the doubt. Well,

220
00:11:52,201 --> 00:11:53,641
Speaker 2: that's right, but he.

221
00:11:53,681 --> 00:11:56,321
Speaker 4: Was told by the prosecution that he wasn't qualified to

222
00:11:56,361 --> 00:12:00,361
Speaker 4: say anything in courts, which so he never. But after

223
00:12:00,401 --> 00:12:04,881
Speaker 4: that the police must have read my confession again, part

224
00:12:04,921 --> 00:12:06,521
Speaker 4: of the confession that they wrote out, and that they

225
00:12:06,641 --> 00:12:09,521
Speaker 4: voted all that. I just signed it, they said, and

226
00:12:09,601 --> 00:12:11,721
Speaker 4: she came up on the bondot of the car, said yes,

227
00:12:12,321 --> 00:12:14,041
Speaker 4: and she rolled off onto the edge of the road,

228
00:12:14,361 --> 00:12:17,081
Speaker 4: level with the front door. And these are the exact words.

229
00:12:18,161 --> 00:12:22,281
Speaker 4: And I said yes. The problem was and they realized

230
00:12:22,321 --> 00:12:25,241
Speaker 4: after they charged me, was the pool of blood in

231
00:12:25,281 --> 00:12:29,041
Speaker 4: the sand was four meters from the edge of the road. Ah,

232
00:12:29,081 --> 00:12:32,601
Speaker 4: they had a problem with the confession. By ten o'clock

233
00:12:33,081 --> 00:12:35,961
Speaker 4: that morning, when it was light, which light, they sent

234
00:12:36,001 --> 00:12:38,321
Speaker 4: the photographer town to take a photo of the blood.

235
00:12:38,841 --> 00:12:41,401
Speaker 4: The photograph of the blood, the police photograph for the blood,

236
00:12:41,401 --> 00:12:43,841
Speaker 4: showed it six inches away from the edge of the road.

237
00:12:45,041 --> 00:12:45,961
Speaker 1: How did it get there?

238
00:12:46,881 --> 00:12:51,321
Speaker 4: However, two days later seven witnesses turned up and said,

239
00:12:51,561 --> 00:12:53,801
Speaker 4: we saw him three or four meters from the edge

240
00:12:53,801 --> 00:12:55,801
Speaker 4: of the road, and he walked back to the car

241
00:12:55,841 --> 00:12:59,801
Speaker 4: with raise me. So to get round that problem, they

242
00:12:59,841 --> 00:13:02,761
Speaker 4: then rote to the clown prosecutor with a hand up

243
00:13:02,801 --> 00:13:04,961
Speaker 4: brief and said, this is what we want you to

244
00:13:05,161 --> 00:13:08,561
Speaker 4: tell the jury if this problem with the blood arises.

245
00:13:09,401 --> 00:13:11,241
Speaker 4: He picture up from the edge of the road where

246
00:13:11,281 --> 00:13:14,601
Speaker 4: his confessioncy she was. He was carrying it to the

247
00:13:14,681 --> 00:13:17,241
Speaker 4: railroad line. Put him on the railroad fact for training

248
00:13:17,281 --> 00:13:19,801
Speaker 4: to run over her. When he gets three or four

249
00:13:19,841 --> 00:13:21,961
Speaker 4: minutes from the each of the void, all the witnesses

250
00:13:22,001 --> 00:13:24,441
Speaker 4: turn up. He turns around and walks back to the car.

251
00:13:25,201 --> 00:13:28,601
Speaker 4: That was their explanation for that. Now there was one

252
00:13:28,641 --> 00:13:31,201
Speaker 4: witness that was actually got there before I got there,

253
00:13:31,241 --> 00:13:33,801
Speaker 4: The first witness on the scene. He saw versus body,

254
00:13:34,521 --> 00:13:36,841
Speaker 4: but he drove up, did a U turn and came back,

255
00:13:37,241 --> 00:13:39,841
Speaker 4: and by then I just arrived and he saw me

256
00:13:39,881 --> 00:13:41,201
Speaker 4: get out of the car, run over to a pick

257
00:13:41,361 --> 00:13:43,161
Speaker 4: up and bring him back to the car. He sat

258
00:13:43,161 --> 00:13:45,081
Speaker 4: in it with a clam witness. But he sat in

259
00:13:45,121 --> 00:13:49,241
Speaker 4: court the whole tile, but was never called to give evidence.

260
00:13:50,001 --> 00:13:54,161
Speaker 4: And we never knew you were being comprehensively fitted up

261
00:13:54,201 --> 00:13:56,681
Speaker 4: with this. They were finding evidence to fit their case.

262
00:13:56,721 --> 00:13:57,001
Speaker 2: Theory.

263
00:13:57,041 --> 00:13:58,041
Speaker 1: The only suspect.

264
00:13:58,361 --> 00:14:01,081
Speaker 2: Let's go with this, And of course the stakes are

265
00:14:01,121 --> 00:14:02,481
Speaker 2: really high willful murder.

266
00:14:02,601 --> 00:14:05,521
Speaker 1: Back in those days carried the death penalty.

267
00:14:06,281 --> 00:14:09,281
Speaker 4: It did ten members of the jury when they walk

268
00:14:09,321 --> 00:14:12,161
Speaker 4: out the jewelry room, I heard later wanted to hang me.

269
00:14:12,961 --> 00:14:17,401
Speaker 4: Let's hang him. Two members. David was one chair pick.

270
00:14:17,441 --> 00:14:19,961
Speaker 4: He was a penet beaker, and he knew by the

271
00:14:20,041 --> 00:14:22,481
Speaker 4: damage of the car. He said, there's this car is anyone?

272
00:14:22,921 --> 00:14:26,361
Speaker 4: And the other woman a young woman. He agreed with him,

273
00:14:26,521 --> 00:14:29,641
Speaker 4: and it was only those two that made the others

274
00:14:29,921 --> 00:14:31,561
Speaker 4: bring the charge back to man's daughter.

275
00:14:33,241 --> 00:14:33,841
Speaker 1: What's it like?

276
00:14:33,921 --> 00:14:36,281
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe there was a dramatic moment where

277
00:14:36,321 --> 00:14:40,281
Speaker 2: your counsel came into your cell and basically hoisted you

278
00:14:40,361 --> 00:14:43,601
Speaker 2: up by your neck and said, listen, John, this is serious.

279
00:14:43,641 --> 00:14:45,761
Speaker 2: You could get hung for this. Did you do it

280
00:14:45,841 --> 00:14:46,321
Speaker 2: or did you not?

281
00:14:47,081 --> 00:14:49,361
Speaker 4: Well, the thing was he asked me why did I

282
00:14:49,401 --> 00:14:51,881
Speaker 4: sign the confession and said they've got no evidence whatsoever,

283
00:14:52,001 --> 00:14:54,681
Speaker 4: only your confession. Why did you sign it? And the

284
00:14:54,721 --> 00:14:56,361
Speaker 4: moment I said, well, that started beating me up. He

285
00:14:56,401 --> 00:14:59,201
Speaker 4: stopped me, and I only remember he started with I

286
00:14:59,241 --> 00:15:01,961
Speaker 4: didn't understand the words of his usion. He said, as

287
00:15:02,001 --> 00:15:04,761
Speaker 4: an officer of the court, that free me a bit.

288
00:15:05,041 --> 00:15:06,961
Speaker 4: I've been an officer of the court. But then he

289
00:15:07,041 --> 00:15:10,001
Speaker 4: went on say, I must at all times and struct

290
00:15:10,081 --> 00:15:14,161
Speaker 4: you to be truthful and honest. He said, However, John,

291
00:15:15,081 --> 00:15:18,801
Speaker 4: people these days, in this even nineteen sixties three will

292
00:15:18,801 --> 00:15:21,561
Speaker 4: never believe that the police do things like that. And

293
00:15:21,601 --> 00:15:24,081
Speaker 4: if you tried to tell them they did that, they're

294
00:15:24,081 --> 00:15:26,601
Speaker 4: immediately going to call you a liar. And if you're

295
00:15:26,681 --> 00:15:29,201
Speaker 4: lying about that, it means you're lying about everything, and

296
00:15:29,241 --> 00:15:29,881
Speaker 4: they'll hang you.

297
00:15:30,481 --> 00:15:30,841
Speaker 1: He said.

298
00:15:30,841 --> 00:15:34,041
Speaker 4: I won't ask you in court what happened. I won't

299
00:15:34,121 --> 00:15:36,361
Speaker 4: force you in that situation, but if you are asked,

300
00:15:36,601 --> 00:15:41,481
Speaker 4: I think very carefully before speaking. Of course, the prosecution

301
00:15:41,841 --> 00:15:46,121
Speaker 4: did ask and I had to say no. They just

302
00:15:46,161 --> 00:15:49,001
Speaker 4: put me under duress. I just could not. And again

303
00:15:49,081 --> 00:15:51,281
Speaker 4: with blood, I could not mention that the blood had

304
00:15:51,281 --> 00:15:53,681
Speaker 4: been moved because that would be calling them liars, and

305
00:15:53,721 --> 00:15:54,281
Speaker 4: I could hang.

306
00:15:55,521 --> 00:15:58,881
Speaker 1: You'd have to wonder who this lawyer's working for. It's

307
00:15:58,921 --> 00:16:02,841
Speaker 1: not you. Well, it was being honest.

308
00:16:02,001 --> 00:16:05,001
Speaker 4: I just imagine if I'd said the police to try

309
00:16:05,161 --> 00:16:08,001
Speaker 4: to beat me up, they wouldn't have believed me. And

310
00:16:08,041 --> 00:16:11,481
Speaker 4: then about the blood, if they told the jewelry that

311
00:16:11,561 --> 00:16:13,321
Speaker 4: I was I picked for up to put take her

312
00:16:13,361 --> 00:16:15,761
Speaker 4: out down to the railroad line, put on the railroad track.

313
00:16:16,401 --> 00:16:19,801
Speaker 4: They certainly would have hanged me. So it's just as

314
00:16:19,801 --> 00:16:22,721
Speaker 4: well I didn't speak out at least, I'm alike.

315
00:16:23,401 --> 00:16:24,481
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting, isn't it?

316
00:16:24,481 --> 00:16:27,041
Speaker 2: Because the truth was going to hang you, which is

317
00:16:27,081 --> 00:16:30,041
Speaker 2: a bizarre situation. What does that say about Perth in

318
00:16:30,121 --> 00:16:33,601
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three and the relationships between the legal profession.

319
00:16:33,201 --> 00:16:36,641
Speaker 1: And police and the establishment, if you like, exactly the

320
00:16:36,721 --> 00:16:37,841
Speaker 1: same as that says today?

321
00:16:39,361 --> 00:16:42,481
Speaker 4: Nothing has to They've brought in a few safeguards, one

322
00:16:42,521 --> 00:16:46,241
Speaker 4: with video interviews, but every now and again you'll have

323
00:16:46,241 --> 00:16:48,681
Speaker 4: a pleaseman get up and they say, oh, we found

324
00:16:48,681 --> 00:16:51,601
Speaker 4: out afterwards that the video wasn't working, and they'll be

325
00:16:51,601 --> 00:16:55,361
Speaker 4: told naughty, naughty, don't do it again. So whatever we

326
00:16:55,441 --> 00:16:59,161
Speaker 4: put in place to try and solve the problems, they

327
00:16:59,761 --> 00:17:00,961
Speaker 4: managed to side step them.

328
00:17:01,401 --> 00:17:02,921
Speaker 1: So nothing changed.

329
00:17:03,721 --> 00:17:06,601
Speaker 2: But the most important piece of evidence came from Eric

330
00:17:06,801 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 2: Edgar Cook, the serial killer, who had also confessed. At

331
00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:14,840
Speaker 2: what point did you learn that Cook said that he'd

332
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:15,200
Speaker 2: done it?

333
00:17:16,041 --> 00:17:18,401
Speaker 4: Well, it was about six months after I'd been sentenced,

334
00:17:18,441 --> 00:17:20,281
Speaker 4: So I was in prison and I heard it over

335
00:17:20,321 --> 00:17:23,241
Speaker 4: the news and I really thought, Wow, I'd better forget

336
00:17:23,281 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 4: me things together.

337
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,360
Speaker 1: They're coming up in five minutes the door let me out.

338
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,281
Speaker 1: That's right. So I did think that, but it didn't happen.

339
00:17:30,681 --> 00:17:33,641
Speaker 4: But what I was to find out was that from

340
00:17:33,721 --> 00:17:35,681
Speaker 4: the moment he got picked up, he said, okay, you've

341
00:17:35,681 --> 00:17:37,641
Speaker 4: got me. Now I'll confess that all the times I've

342
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 4: committed and I think it was about one hundred and

343
00:17:39,761 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 4: ninety eight, including rapes and murders and assaults and everything,

344
00:17:44,681 --> 00:17:47,960
Speaker 4: also including seven other girls who had run down with

345
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 4: cars and identical situations over the last five years. So

346
00:17:52,241 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 4: it was his modus operendi. But nobody wanted well, they

347
00:17:57,521 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 4: couldn't believe him. My lawyer Ken Hatfield back in sixty

348
00:18:01,241 --> 00:18:05,561
Speaker 4: three said to the PENMI then David Brand afterwards was convicted.

349
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,041
Speaker 4: He said, you know, this young boy's innocent, and the

350
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 4: reply was, oh, yeah, we all know he's innocent, but

351
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,641
Speaker 4: it would be political suicide to let him out.

352
00:18:14,281 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: So you're fighting a system you can't.

353
00:18:18,281 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 2: You really were, and to make matters worse for you personally,

354
00:18:24,481 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 2: Rosemarie Anderson's family believed you did it.

355
00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:30,360
Speaker 1: Well. The police went and told them what I'd done.

356
00:18:30,441 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 4: Now to the police know that to get an accused

357
00:18:33,201 --> 00:18:36,801
Speaker 4: offside with the jury is to throw in something sexual

358
00:18:37,441 --> 00:18:40,321
Speaker 4: that really makes women on the jury or hate their cure.

359
00:18:40,921 --> 00:18:43,801
Speaker 4: And so what they said that we're playing cards and

360
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 4: I tried to get fresh with her and I touched

361
00:18:46,761 --> 00:18:47,801
Speaker 4: her things like that.

362
00:18:48,521 --> 00:18:49,561
Speaker 1: This went to the family.

363
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,801
Speaker 4: Well, hell, a parent, if you hear from the police

364
00:18:52,921 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 4: who never lie, this person had done this to your daughter,

365
00:18:57,201 --> 00:19:02,001
Speaker 4: I can quite understand why they hated me so Unfortunately

366
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,281
Speaker 4: it burned their lives, their whole lives. The agonized over this.

367
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 4: They never got over it until we actually had a

368
00:19:08,801 --> 00:19:12,681
Speaker 4: meeting together once in two thousand and two. We got

369
00:19:12,681 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 4: together and on the ABC we had a meeting and

370
00:19:16,521 --> 00:19:19,241
Speaker 4: they conceded then that Akay will accept that you didn't

371
00:19:19,281 --> 00:19:22,201
Speaker 4: run it down. But her mother could not get past

372
00:19:22,201 --> 00:19:25,161
Speaker 4: the point saying, Okay, John, you never run it down,

373
00:19:25,201 --> 00:19:27,561
Speaker 4: but you took her out that night and you never

374
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,321
Speaker 4: bought her home, So you're justice guilty. So it saddens

375
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,001
Speaker 4: me to think that not only of those we died,

376
00:19:36,041 --> 00:19:37,801
Speaker 4: but they died as well to all this.

377
00:19:38,801 --> 00:19:41,401
Speaker 2: And I can see how that would weigh on your conscience.

378
00:19:41,441 --> 00:19:44,281
Speaker 2: You're a good man, you had no criminal background. You

379
00:19:44,281 --> 00:19:46,841
Speaker 2: know this would have weighed on your conscience that and

380
00:19:47,001 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, pardon me for saying it, But strictly speaking

381
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 2: that was true. You hadn't brought her home, and this

382
00:19:52,001 --> 00:19:55,640
Speaker 2: had happened, And I admit that I am guilty of

383
00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: that absolutely, but not her murder. And you spent five years.

384
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,761
Speaker 2: You get out in December nineteen sixty seven. Life looking

385
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,120
Speaker 2: like for you then.

386
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,121
Speaker 4: It's strange for have k your mind works. There's a

387
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 4: famous pupe. Well it isn't the famous poem because nobody

388
00:20:18,001 --> 00:20:21,041
Speaker 4: knows that, but there's so fantastic lines in it. It's

389
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 4: a letter to a thene of in prison, and the

390
00:20:23,441 --> 00:20:26,041
Speaker 4: two lines, the first two lines of the last verse

391
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,521
Speaker 4: over stone walls do not a prison, make nor iron

392
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 4: bars a cage. And it's not the same walls the

393
00:20:32,721 --> 00:20:36,561
Speaker 4: iron bars that locked doors. The prison is in your mind,

394
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,681
Speaker 4: and your mind can do strange things, and your mind

395
00:20:40,801 --> 00:20:44,441
Speaker 4: torments you and drives you crazy. So when I got out,

396
00:20:44,561 --> 00:20:46,441
Speaker 4: I really thought I was going to come out five

397
00:20:46,481 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 4: minutes after I went in, I'd go straight back to

398
00:20:49,201 --> 00:20:51,441
Speaker 4: all my friends, which that's out doing all the things

399
00:20:51,441 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 4: we used to do. Life would just pick up a

400
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 4: few minutes after it finished. And it took me months

401
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 4: and months to accept that that was never going to happen.

402
00:21:01,521 --> 00:21:05,281
Speaker 4: I could not accept that my life gone. Those year,

403
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 4: those five years of my youth had gone. I couldn't

404
00:21:07,721 --> 00:21:11,001
Speaker 4: get them back. I couldn't accept it. I just refused

405
00:21:11,041 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 4: to accept it for years. And that's being crazed, depressions,

406
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,041
Speaker 4: in hospital, under psychiatric care, at everything, to the point

407
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 4: that I desperately wanted to live, but I didn't know

408
00:21:23,201 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 4: how to.

409
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,041
Speaker 1: I couldn't find a way out of this.

410
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,281
Speaker 2: You were trapped in this kind of prison of the mind,

411
00:21:28,281 --> 00:21:32,361
Speaker 2: as you say, and were there times where you might

412
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: have been contemplated self harm?

413
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,001
Speaker 4: I contemplated a lot of times trying to avoid itself

414
00:21:40,041 --> 00:21:42,801
Speaker 4: self harm. I didn't want to, but I couldn't see

415
00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:46,241
Speaker 4: any other way out of it. And it was only

416
00:21:46,321 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 4: a turn of events I Helen, my wife, asked that

417
00:21:49,921 --> 00:21:51,761
Speaker 4: if she could go down and spend a weekend with

418
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 4: her relatives down south on a farm and leave me

419
00:21:54,281 --> 00:21:56,801
Speaker 4: at home on my own, just for a couple of nights.

420
00:21:57,561 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 4: So that was on the Friday night, and I got

421
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 4: so upset. On the Friday night I came to the

422
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 4: first of two brilliant ideas that men can have. Actually,

423
00:22:09,321 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 4: the first billion idea is when you're in pain, mental pain,

424
00:22:13,321 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 4: you know, and depression that when you're asleep you feel nothing.

425
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 4: Problem solved, take a few sleeping tablets to go to sleep.

426
00:22:21,041 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 4: So I took half a dozen. Got a bit worried

427
00:22:24,681 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 4: than because I mean taking antidubessants all day, and I

428
00:22:27,321 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 4: rang up at the hospital. I said, listen that I

429
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,201
Speaker 4: was too scared to save what I'd done. But I said,

430
00:22:32,241 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: I've got some sleeping tablets here, and it says take

431
00:22:34,681 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 4: six at night. I think, I said, what do you

432
00:22:37,921 --> 00:22:39,001
Speaker 4: want to kill yourself?

433
00:22:39,801 --> 00:22:40,001
Speaker 1: Now?

434
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 4: I had a problem, and that's when I came up

435
00:22:42,961 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 4: with my second greatest idea of my whole life was.

436
00:22:45,761 --> 00:22:47,481
Speaker 1: If you don't want to sleep, hop in the car.

437
00:22:47,521 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: I go for a drive with the window down. That

438
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: was a candle.

439
00:22:50,521 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 4: I got about fifty miles out of per the other

440
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,281
Speaker 4: side of the Yantia, flying along a country baden almost ninety,

441
00:22:58,241 --> 00:23:01,321
Speaker 4: fell asleep at the wheel, hit a white post, wake up,

442
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 4: fell asleep a second time, hit another white poke, slow learner,

443
00:23:07,561 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 4: kept driving, fell asleep a third time. But when I

444
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,081
Speaker 4: wake up this time, my body's shaking, and I went

445
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 4: to open my eyes. I'm flying over a freshly plowed

446
00:23:15,761 --> 00:23:19,321
Speaker 4: paddock about eighty ninety k is an hour, and all

447
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 4: I heard in my head was something said turn left,

448
00:23:22,681 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: and I did and I came meetiately to an embankment.

449
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 4: I shot up this bank. When finished up on the road,

450
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 4: frote down a bit, pulled off, fell asleep in the

451
00:23:31,681 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 4: car the next day, set deep aut lunchtime. When I

452
00:23:34,921 --> 00:23:37,681
Speaker 4: wake up, the car was covered in dirt, white paint

453
00:23:37,721 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 4: on the bumpers, and I thought, John, you've got to

454
00:23:40,521 --> 00:23:44,001
Speaker 4: make a decision here. You've got to change your life

455
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 4: or you're not going to live any longer.

456
00:23:46,201 --> 00:23:49,041
Speaker 1: This was just a warning. So it was that point

457
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,241
Speaker 1: I had to change.

458
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:56,961
Speaker 4: So that's when I started thinking about I've really got

459
00:23:56,961 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 4: to do something and look at this whole life differently.

460
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the exoneration became a driving force for you.

461
00:24:07,801 --> 00:24:10,801
Speaker 2: By the late nineties, you'd written your own story. When

462
00:24:10,801 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: you were writing it, as we've said, Rosemary's family didn't

463
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,761
Speaker 2: believe that you were the killer, and I guess a

464
00:24:17,761 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 2: lot of people in Perth, it's a small town, would

465
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: have felt the same way. Yes, really up against it

466
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 2: at this point, and so you put pen to paper.

467
00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:27,121
Speaker 2: How therapeutic and cathartic was.

468
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: That I would recommend it to anyone that has problems,

469
00:24:32,201 --> 00:24:36,761
Speaker 4: and they're internalizing it all the time, externalize it, get

470
00:24:36,801 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 4: it out of you, put it on paper, look at

471
00:24:38,681 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 4: it and it is it's fantastic. You can look at

472
00:24:42,441 --> 00:24:46,281
Speaker 4: it poply, objectively. And I did, and I wrote and

473
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,521
Speaker 4: vote for years, seven eight, nine years. I wrote everything

474
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 4: down and books and that everything I could think of.

475
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 4: I finally finished ninety one almost take this book sort

476
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,241
Speaker 4: of thing just about fish. I really wanted a final

477
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,321
Speaker 4: chapter to finish it off with. Was this time my

478
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,721
Speaker 4: daughter came. She's fifteen, and she had had an invitation

479
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,241
Speaker 4: to the Bible Society.

480
00:25:09,321 --> 00:25:11,801
Speaker 1: And you're just a general meeting the Bible Society.

481
00:25:12,201 --> 00:25:15,121
Speaker 4: And we told her again, nasty parents, would you ever

482
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,961
Speaker 4: to tell someone to go to an AGM?

483
00:25:19,241 --> 00:25:20,801
Speaker 1: But then she said, will you come with me?

484
00:25:21,001 --> 00:25:21,201
Speaker 4: Oh?

485
00:25:21,281 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: No, that we did. It was going to be a meeting.

486
00:25:25,441 --> 00:25:27,001
Speaker 4: There was going to be a guest speaker there, and

487
00:25:27,721 --> 00:25:30,361
Speaker 4: we went along and after the meeting, I thought, I'll

488
00:25:30,441 --> 00:25:32,561
Speaker 4: leave before the guest speaker gets up, because we've had

489
00:25:32,681 --> 00:25:35,241
Speaker 4: enough at this. We'll go home. And we're halfway out

490
00:25:35,321 --> 00:25:38,161
Speaker 4: the chair and Helen pulls me back and says, John,

491
00:25:38,241 --> 00:25:41,321
Speaker 4: you know this man? And I looked at the invitation again,

492
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,281
Speaker 4: I thought, of course I know this man. I couldn't

493
00:25:43,321 --> 00:25:45,721
Speaker 4: understand why I hadn't realized that I hadn't known him.

494
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,721
Speaker 4: So listen to the speech. The first there at the

495
00:25:48,721 --> 00:25:51,521
Speaker 4: bottom of the stage when he stepped down and I said,

496
00:25:52,041 --> 00:25:56,521
Speaker 4: mister Wilson, Yes, sir, would I'll may be correcting saying

497
00:25:56,561 --> 00:26:01,561
Speaker 4: Crown Prosecutor nineteen sixty three said you would. I said,

498
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: we've met before, Sir. He said that we have your name,

499
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,721
Speaker 4: he said, he said, oh, John, I'm sorry, how are you?

500
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: Here was the man that, as a young man had

501
00:26:10,721 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 4: almost fallen to the floor and begged the jury to

502
00:26:12,961 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 4: hang me. But here was the man that I loved

503
00:26:15,761 --> 00:26:17,801
Speaker 4: like a brother. I wanted to talk to him. I

504
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,561
Speaker 4: wanted to tell him that I now I had a

505
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 4: wonderful life, family, things were just so great, and I

506
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 4: couldn't go as far as thanking him for what he did,

507
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,161
Speaker 4: but I wanted him to know that he was part

508
00:26:28,201 --> 00:26:29,281
Speaker 4: of what I was today.

509
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,201
Speaker 1: So we met up.

510
00:26:32,481 --> 00:26:36,521
Speaker 4: siRNA Wilson came to our place to for afternoon tea.

511
00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 4: We did all that, and that year my son was

512
00:26:40,801 --> 00:26:44,561
Speaker 4: about to have a degree from Murder University science degree

513
00:26:44,961 --> 00:26:47,921
Speaker 4: and of course, Sahonda Wilson as the vice chancellor, he's

514
00:26:47,921 --> 00:26:51,161
Speaker 4: the one that hands out the degrees on stage. When

515
00:26:51,201 --> 00:26:54,561
Speaker 4: my son lined up with a hundred other people, finding

516
00:26:54,721 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 4: marched up to him instead of just shaking hands taking

517
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,201
Speaker 4: the degree of walking off, Sorondal stopped him and spoke

518
00:27:01,241 --> 00:27:04,041
Speaker 4: to him for two to three minutes and finished up saying,

519
00:27:04,201 --> 00:27:07,561
Speaker 4: will you ask your parents and yourself if you will

520
00:27:07,801 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 4: be my guests upstairs for supper after this?

521
00:27:12,321 --> 00:27:13,521
Speaker 1: Now we didn't just do that once.

522
00:27:13,561 --> 00:27:16,001
Speaker 4: Two years later, the same thing happened again when my

523
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,881
Speaker 4: son God has led me degree, and again we were

524
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 4: invited as his guests, which I thought was interesting.

525
00:27:26,201 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I'm sure you're far too well mannered to

526
00:27:29,721 --> 00:27:32,321
Speaker 2: probably ask this, but I think i'd be asking him, Well,

527
00:27:32,521 --> 00:27:35,041
Speaker 2: thanks for the invitation, but I've got a question for you.

528
00:27:35,441 --> 00:27:37,561
Speaker 2: I know you're doing a job there when you're begging

529
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,681
Speaker 2: the jury to hang me, but did you really think

530
00:27:39,721 --> 00:27:42,481
Speaker 2: I did it? And what about the confession from Cook?

531
00:27:43,681 --> 00:27:48,201
Speaker 4: I know it's but you know we I did ask

532
00:27:48,281 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 4: him once, did he believe in the end justifies the means?

533
00:27:52,521 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 4: And he said absolutely not. But everybody believes in that.

534
00:27:57,721 --> 00:28:00,521
Speaker 4: If you believe in something and you really what no

535
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,921
Speaker 4: have somewhere to get to. You're justified that it doesn't

536
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 4: of what you do.

537
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:06,481
Speaker 1: That's right.

538
00:28:07,761 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 4: I don't blame him for what we all do it

539
00:28:10,481 --> 00:28:13,521
Speaker 4: he just I think the saddest thing is there's two

540
00:28:13,521 --> 00:28:16,441
Speaker 4: menut in my life that I actually admire.

541
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:21,161
Speaker 1: One is Trevor Condon, the traffic inspector, even.

542
00:28:20,961 --> 00:28:23,241
Speaker 4: Though it was forty years later, almost forty years later,

543
00:28:23,801 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 4: he tried on my shoulder when he asked him if

544
00:28:26,001 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 4: he could appear at my appeal in my defense and

545
00:28:29,241 --> 00:28:32,041
Speaker 4: told the truth. In tears, he said, John, if I'd

546
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,241
Speaker 4: only told the whole truth at your trial, you would

547
00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:37,241
Speaker 4: never gone to jail. How can you forgive me? And

548
00:28:37,321 --> 00:28:39,681
Speaker 4: I said, Trevor, I don't have tea. You've just done

549
00:28:39,721 --> 00:28:42,281
Speaker 4: it now for yourself. It was always there for you

550
00:28:42,681 --> 00:28:45,561
Speaker 4: to do. I admire him because here was a man

551
00:28:45,601 --> 00:28:49,081
Speaker 4: that came forward and said, I'm sorry, I got it wrong,

552
00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:50,841
Speaker 4: let me put it right.

553
00:28:51,761 --> 00:28:53,361
Speaker 1: The other person was Eric Cook.

554
00:28:54,081 --> 00:28:58,121
Speaker 4: Eric Cook on the gallows again basically said John, I

555
00:28:58,201 --> 00:29:00,161
Speaker 4: got it wrong, let me put it right.

556
00:29:00,241 --> 00:29:00,961
Speaker 1: When he took.

557
00:29:00,801 --> 00:29:03,281
Speaker 4: The Bible out of the hands of the minister at

558
00:29:03,281 --> 00:29:06,201
Speaker 4: the gallows and he said, as God is my witness.

559
00:29:06,321 --> 00:29:09,561
Speaker 4: I'm guilty of the murder of Roseby Anderson. He was

560
00:29:09,601 --> 00:29:12,001
Speaker 4: a man that he was saying to me, John, I

561
00:29:12,041 --> 00:29:13,761
Speaker 4: got it wrong. I'm trying to put it right. The

562
00:29:13,841 --> 00:29:17,081
Speaker 4: last thing in his mind, on his everything, not his wife,

563
00:29:17,161 --> 00:29:21,721
Speaker 4: his children, was putting this wrong. Right. I admire these

564
00:29:21,721 --> 00:29:27,841
Speaker 4: two men because what other person, politician, police commissioner, has

565
00:29:27,921 --> 00:29:31,241
Speaker 4: ever done that for anyone, no one. It's possibly the

566
00:29:31,321 --> 00:29:34,401
Speaker 4: hardest thing in the world to do. So I'm sorry

567
00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:37,841
Speaker 4: that Sir Ronald couldn't do that. If you read his book,

568
00:29:37,921 --> 00:29:41,601
Speaker 4: his memoirs, he has asked that question, do you think

569
00:29:41,641 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 4: John Button was guilty? And even though he admitted to me,

570
00:29:45,641 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, and he made me his guests and everything

571
00:29:48,601 --> 00:29:51,281
Speaker 4: in his book, he still couldn't think himself to tell

572
00:29:51,281 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: his reader, his public that it made a mistake.

573
00:29:55,761 --> 00:29:56,681
Speaker 1: He said in his book.

574
00:29:56,761 --> 00:30:00,041
Speaker 4: Yes, he's good, and I feel sorry that he couldn't

575
00:30:00,201 --> 00:30:02,041
Speaker 4: do what these other two men were able to do.

576
00:30:02,961 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: Yes, you were sacrificed on the al of expediency. The

577
00:30:07,041 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: court wanted to move on, But the Bible says that

578
00:30:11,361 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: God moves in mysterious ways, and it's clear that faith

579
00:30:15,761 --> 00:30:19,361
Speaker 2: was a really important element for you to not be

580
00:30:19,801 --> 00:30:24,121
Speaker 2: mired in bitterness and ruin the rest of your life.

581
00:30:25,081 --> 00:30:26,281
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.

582
00:30:27,401 --> 00:30:30,841
Speaker 4: You know, the biggest word in the Bible forgiveness. I

583
00:30:30,881 --> 00:30:33,921
Speaker 4: don't know whether you know this, the word forgiveness. I mean,

584
00:30:33,921 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 4: it's used a lot in the New Testament, which is

585
00:30:36,961 --> 00:30:41,561
Speaker 4: written in Greek, and the Greek word for forgiveness.

586
00:30:42,601 --> 00:30:45,121
Speaker 1: What it means forgiveness.

587
00:30:44,561 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 4: A producer is to loose, to let go of, to

588
00:30:47,761 --> 00:30:51,881
Speaker 4: get rid of, to cast off, to divorce from, separate from.

589
00:30:52,161 --> 00:30:56,801
Speaker 4: And it's not about anger, bitterness, negativity. So when you

590
00:30:56,841 --> 00:30:59,121
Speaker 4: say I forgive, you don't have to put a name

591
00:30:59,161 --> 00:31:00,761
Speaker 4: at the end of that is a full sentence.

592
00:31:01,601 --> 00:31:03,761
Speaker 1: I forgive. It's about you.

593
00:31:04,601 --> 00:31:08,801
Speaker 4: Everyone's I pardon Aka, I pardon John, Jill, Jack, whatever,

594
00:31:08,881 --> 00:31:09,441
Speaker 4: But I.

595
00:31:09,481 --> 00:31:11,321
Speaker 1: Forgive it totally do we do.

596
00:31:11,441 --> 00:31:14,321
Speaker 4: And you've got to get rid of that anger, that business,

597
00:31:14,361 --> 00:31:18,401
Speaker 4: because it only destroys you everybody else. And like I said,

598
00:31:18,441 --> 00:31:21,561
Speaker 4: I've lost enough time without losing it one more minute.

599
00:31:21,561 --> 00:31:25,241
Speaker 1: So I refuse to be angry or bitter or anything.

600
00:31:26,801 --> 00:31:27,561
Speaker 1: I won't do that.

601
00:31:29,241 --> 00:31:33,241
Speaker 2: And you made that amazing journey of forgiveness. You did

602
00:31:33,721 --> 00:31:36,761
Speaker 2: marry at a family and so forth. And I guess

603
00:31:36,761 --> 00:31:38,801
Speaker 2: some people would say that's enough, and you can move

604
00:31:38,841 --> 00:31:41,561
Speaker 2: on quietly and not make any more noise. But then

605
00:31:42,641 --> 00:31:47,001
Speaker 2: Estelle Blackburn comes along. How did she enter your life?

606
00:31:47,401 --> 00:31:49,641
Speaker 4: Well after I wrote my little book and I had

607
00:31:49,641 --> 00:31:52,841
Speaker 4: this final chapter with Sir Odor Wilson, I thought, that's

608
00:31:52,881 --> 00:31:53,281
Speaker 4: the chapter.

609
00:31:53,281 --> 00:31:54,561
Speaker 1: I've finished my little book. Off.

610
00:31:54,921 --> 00:31:56,801
Speaker 4: I sent it to the publishers, and they sent it

611
00:31:56,841 --> 00:32:01,041
Speaker 4: back about January ninety two. If the first paragraph had

612
00:32:01,081 --> 00:32:04,001
Speaker 4: all these attributes, better than most wonderful job.

613
00:32:04,521 --> 00:32:06,401
Speaker 1: And I got finished with the word but.

614
00:32:08,121 --> 00:32:10,761
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't take any notice of what we've said. What

615
00:32:10,841 --> 00:32:13,361
Speaker 4: I really meant to say is John, there's so many

616
00:32:13,441 --> 00:32:15,921
Speaker 4: questions he round I haven't answered. The reader's going to

617
00:32:16,401 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: be baffled to know why what's going on? Can you

618
00:32:19,561 --> 00:32:22,641
Speaker 4: take it back, rewrite it if you want to Enderbot,

619
00:32:22,681 --> 00:32:25,561
Speaker 4: we'll have another look. And I WoT in my office

620
00:32:25,681 --> 00:32:28,441
Speaker 4: and I stopped. I've been writing for seven eight nine years.

621
00:32:29,041 --> 00:32:32,361
Speaker 4: Everything I knew was in that book. I knew nothing else.

622
00:32:32,641 --> 00:32:35,041
Speaker 4: I didn't know the answers. But I raised my hands

623
00:32:35,121 --> 00:32:36,681
Speaker 4: up in the air. I said, God, if you want

624
00:32:36,721 --> 00:32:39,561
Speaker 4: this book written, you better do something. And the phone

625
00:32:39,601 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 4: made I will have read. I looked up and said God,

626
00:32:42,481 --> 00:32:43,001
Speaker 4: that was good.

627
00:32:44,001 --> 00:32:48,161
Speaker 1: But the apologizice. But the phone call was from my brother.

628
00:32:48,321 --> 00:32:51,201
Speaker 4: I hadn't seen my brother for years, and he rang

629
00:32:51,281 --> 00:32:54,001
Speaker 4: me up and he said, John, did you say years

630
00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: ago you were writing a book. I said yeah, Why

631
00:32:55,761 --> 00:32:57,881
Speaker 4: he said, well, I was out dancing with a young

632
00:32:57,921 --> 00:33:00,801
Speaker 4: woman last night and I told her about your case

633
00:33:01,401 --> 00:33:03,281
Speaker 4: and she'd like to come and see you. So a

634
00:33:03,321 --> 00:33:05,561
Speaker 4: week I do for the style blackburn't And now she's

635
00:33:05,601 --> 00:33:10,161
Speaker 4: the premiest PESS secretary. She's an investigative journalist. If you

636
00:33:10,201 --> 00:33:13,281
Speaker 4: know it's still she has access. She she's a wonderful person.

637
00:33:13,401 --> 00:33:16,361
Speaker 4: Everybody loves her and if she wants something, they would

638
00:33:16,401 --> 00:33:20,201
Speaker 4: gladly let her habit. The police a few years after

639
00:33:20,241 --> 00:33:22,561
Speaker 4: this put an order out and that we're never ever

640
00:33:22,601 --> 00:33:25,161
Speaker 4: going to let anybody into our police file.

641
00:33:25,281 --> 00:33:28,721
Speaker 1: The in they passed the law.

642
00:33:28,641 --> 00:33:32,601
Speaker 4: Over here banning anybody from talking to jury members about

643
00:33:33,041 --> 00:33:36,841
Speaker 4: a child. There's a law nowt because as still so,

644
00:33:37,401 --> 00:33:39,641
Speaker 4: she saw what I'd written, said John, I want to

645
00:33:39,641 --> 00:33:42,001
Speaker 4: write this book. But then she said, John, I can't

646
00:33:42,001 --> 00:33:44,041
Speaker 4: write a book about your innocence because no one's going

647
00:33:44,121 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 4: to believe a guilty person trying to say is innocent.

648
00:33:46,401 --> 00:33:48,841
Speaker 4: They'll laugh, I got to write a book that Prouce

649
00:33:48,881 --> 00:33:52,521
Speaker 4: ever Cook is guilty first, then they'll believe in your innocence.

650
00:33:53,601 --> 00:33:56,321
Speaker 4: And as you see read the book, she absolutely did.

651
00:33:57,041 --> 00:34:02,161
Speaker 4: He has pooved beyond doubt that he was guilty. I mean,

652
00:34:02,561 --> 00:34:07,041
Speaker 4: even just a small little thing. Cook wrote to his lawyer,

653
00:34:07,521 --> 00:34:10,921
Speaker 4: worried that I might take my anger out on his

654
00:34:11,081 --> 00:34:17,041
Speaker 4: family because him having killed Rosebary. If you think about that,

655
00:34:17,641 --> 00:34:22,001
Speaker 4: he wouldn't do that if I was guilty, would he?

656
00:34:22,601 --> 00:34:24,281
Speaker 4: If I were guilty, I'll be thanking him for trying

657
00:34:24,321 --> 00:34:26,401
Speaker 4: to get me out of jail. For him to write

658
00:34:26,401 --> 00:34:29,321
Speaker 4: to a concerned that I might take just a little

659
00:34:29,321 --> 00:34:30,641
Speaker 4: thing that proves he's guilty.

660
00:34:30,921 --> 00:34:31,801
Speaker 1: He told them me that.

661
00:34:31,881 --> 00:34:33,841
Speaker 4: He then rows me down in the car, then pressed

662
00:34:33,881 --> 00:34:36,921
Speaker 4: his car into a tree in King's Park, which has

663
00:34:36,921 --> 00:34:41,401
Speaker 4: about three million trees in King's Park. So the police saying, right,

664
00:34:41,481 --> 00:34:43,681
Speaker 4: hop in the car, take us to the tree is

665
00:34:43,681 --> 00:34:45,561
Speaker 4: spashed into, and he did.

666
00:34:46,241 --> 00:34:47,521
Speaker 1: But they still wouldn't believe him.

667
00:34:47,641 --> 00:34:49,481
Speaker 4: Where this car was passed into it was only a

668
00:34:49,481 --> 00:34:52,441
Speaker 4: couple of kilometers away from Roseby was locked down and

669
00:34:52,481 --> 00:34:55,561
Speaker 4: about the same time half an hour later, but they

670
00:34:55,601 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 4: still wouldn't believe him. Even though he'd run down seven

671
00:34:59,041 --> 00:35:01,801
Speaker 4: other girls in exactly the same way. They still wouldn't

672
00:35:01,801 --> 00:35:06,761
Speaker 4: believe him. So they say, fighting a system, not fight

673
00:35:06,881 --> 00:35:07,681
Speaker 4: fighting the truth.

674
00:35:08,201 --> 00:35:11,601
Speaker 2: Correct, And you had a Stell, but you also had

675
00:35:11,601 --> 00:35:15,041
Speaker 2: a very good barrister. Tom Percy QC was then Casey.

676
00:35:15,121 --> 00:35:18,241
Speaker 2: These days it's a tough little nugget. Yes, And I

677
00:35:18,281 --> 00:35:22,081
Speaker 2: don't think he was so concerned about going up against

678
00:35:22,121 --> 00:35:24,601
Speaker 2: the system, shall we say? I think he's got a

679
00:35:24,681 --> 00:35:26,641
Speaker 2: very forthright manner about him. But I think he was

680
00:35:26,721 --> 00:35:27,801
Speaker 2: just the right advocate for.

681
00:35:27,761 --> 00:35:32,721
Speaker 4: You, Absolutely brilliant man him and Is offsided Jonathan Davies

682
00:35:32,881 --> 00:35:35,961
Speaker 4: together and they took it on to Bono as Stelle.

683
00:35:36,001 --> 00:35:38,641
Speaker 4: I believe the story was that Aestell got in touch

684
00:35:38,681 --> 00:35:41,041
Speaker 4: with Tom and said, Tom, I've got a case here

685
00:35:41,081 --> 00:35:42,641
Speaker 4: that's book worth a million dollars.

686
00:35:43,161 --> 00:35:44,361
Speaker 1: Says, I mean, I'll do it.

687
00:35:44,401 --> 00:35:45,881
Speaker 4: What do you want me to do? He said, does

688
00:35:45,921 --> 00:35:48,041
Speaker 4: want patch? We want you to do it for nothing.

689
00:35:49,441 --> 00:35:52,121
Speaker 4: He stopped, but he did read the book and then

690
00:35:52,161 --> 00:35:53,761
Speaker 4: he came back and said, yes, I want to do

691
00:35:53,841 --> 00:35:56,201
Speaker 4: this case. The Turkists will do this case for nothing.

692
00:35:57,001 --> 00:36:00,561
Speaker 4: I mean a brilliant team. They worked together, the whole

693
00:36:01,121 --> 00:36:05,601
Speaker 4: team of it very involved and very This has a

694
00:36:05,601 --> 00:36:09,561
Speaker 4: little side issue. Tom and Josh have their own little band,

695
00:36:10,161 --> 00:36:13,201
Speaker 4: the Gang of Tea, which called as They've play in

696
00:36:13,321 --> 00:36:16,841
Speaker 4: pubs are Irish pubs, and he even wrote a song.

697
00:36:17,521 --> 00:36:20,681
Speaker 4: We've got to take another look at Eric Cook. I

698
00:36:20,681 --> 00:36:22,481
Speaker 4: think Tom's a bass player in that band. And I

699
00:36:22,481 --> 00:36:24,081
Speaker 4: think I mean he actually grew up in a pub

700
00:36:24,121 --> 00:36:26,721
Speaker 4: in the outback. I think his family was from the bushes,

701
00:36:27,841 --> 00:36:30,281
Speaker 4: cal Gooley exactly. So he was a knock about character

702
00:36:30,321 --> 00:36:34,081
Speaker 4: and he understood he wasn't a silver spoon boy. And

703
00:36:34,201 --> 00:36:38,041
Speaker 4: I think he understood still does injustice. What do you

704
00:36:38,081 --> 00:36:42,281
Speaker 4: think was the tipping point in the appeal that tipped

705
00:36:42,281 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 4: the scales towards your innocence? Well, I've got to bring

706
00:36:46,441 --> 00:36:52,441
Speaker 4: in another cavicter of that, Christian from the post. Cbo Posy,

707
00:36:52,641 --> 00:36:56,881
Speaker 4: the owner and editor of sacopag Bett saw this. He

708
00:36:56,921 --> 00:37:00,201
Speaker 4: wanted to get involved, but he realized that all the

709
00:37:00,281 --> 00:37:04,521
Speaker 4: evidence against Eeric Cook wasn't fresh evidence. We could not

710
00:37:04,601 --> 00:37:07,041
Speaker 4: get it in to court on all the evidence still

711
00:37:07,281 --> 00:37:10,881
Speaker 4: brought up. We needed fresh evidence, and fresh evidence is

712
00:37:10,921 --> 00:37:14,401
Speaker 4: evidence that's never been brought up before, has never even

713
00:37:14,481 --> 00:37:16,881
Speaker 4: been known of before, or able to be brought up,

714
00:37:17,001 --> 00:37:21,041
Speaker 4: so it's a pretty high bar. So he went around

715
00:37:21,081 --> 00:37:25,361
Speaker 4: the world seeking the world leading person on pedestrian versus

716
00:37:25,441 --> 00:37:28,721
Speaker 4: vehicle accidents. Back in the sixties, there was no such

717
00:37:28,761 --> 00:37:29,641
Speaker 4: thing as a science.

718
00:37:29,681 --> 00:37:30,081
Speaker 1: Said that.

719
00:37:30,561 --> 00:37:33,281
Speaker 4: Judge Negas in my case told the jury that, oh,

720
00:37:33,361 --> 00:37:36,041
Speaker 4: members's jury, we all know that a car hit somebody.

721
00:37:36,081 --> 00:37:39,201
Speaker 1: Anything could happen, from a little scratch to a write off.

722
00:37:40,121 --> 00:37:41,601
Speaker 1: So there was no science to it.

723
00:37:41,681 --> 00:37:44,841
Speaker 4: But in the nineteen eighties of America they produced a

724
00:37:45,001 --> 00:37:47,841
Speaker 4: science of cars hitting pedestrians.

725
00:37:48,641 --> 00:37:50,041
Speaker 1: And it's repeatable.

726
00:37:50,681 --> 00:37:53,841
Speaker 4: A particular car hidden an a particular person will always

727
00:37:53,881 --> 00:37:58,081
Speaker 4: produce a particular result. And Brett went around the world

728
00:37:58,161 --> 00:38:01,361
Speaker 4: and he found Rusty hate over them Texas America, who

729
00:38:01,401 --> 00:38:05,761
Speaker 4: was the world leading authority on him, and Brett paid

730
00:38:05,841 --> 00:38:08,081
Speaker 4: tens of thousands of dollars out of his own pocket

731
00:38:08,761 --> 00:38:11,681
Speaker 4: to bring him over with a dummy to set up

732
00:38:11,721 --> 00:38:16,041
Speaker 4: tests in the Claremont show Grounds and it all filmed, documented,

733
00:38:16,801 --> 00:38:19,521
Speaker 4: and then for Rusty to come back at the appeal

734
00:38:20,001 --> 00:38:23,801
Speaker 4: with the facts. And Rusty pointed out exactly the facts.

735
00:38:23,961 --> 00:38:27,481
Speaker 4: They could not have happened because if a Simka had

736
00:38:27,561 --> 00:38:29,921
Speaker 4: hit Roseby, this is the damage that would have happened.

737
00:38:29,921 --> 00:38:32,161
Speaker 4: The whole bonnet would have been caved in. Then the

738
00:38:32,161 --> 00:38:35,361
Speaker 4: wouldn't have been a mark on the grill, which is

739
00:38:35,441 --> 00:38:38,081
Speaker 4: totally different to my car. But when he did the

740
00:38:38,241 --> 00:38:42,601
Speaker 4: crash test with the holden, the same holden as Eric

741
00:38:42,721 --> 00:38:45,561
Speaker 4: stole and hit it with the damage to that car

742
00:38:45,681 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 4: was exactly what happened in the test. And the big

743
00:38:50,561 --> 00:38:53,721
Speaker 4: point was Eric Cook in the statement said Roseby came

744
00:38:53,801 --> 00:38:58,921
Speaker 4: up on the bonnet, came under the windshield sunbiser, got

745
00:38:58,921 --> 00:39:00,841
Speaker 4: caught there for a second and then then was released.

746
00:39:01,241 --> 00:39:03,081
Speaker 4: And the police said, well, that's a lie because if

747
00:39:03,121 --> 00:39:04,921
Speaker 4: he'd gone under them and got caught, it would have

748
00:39:05,241 --> 00:39:09,481
Speaker 4: the sun visor off. In the test, that's exactly what happens.

749
00:39:09,521 --> 00:39:12,201
Speaker 4: You went under the sun visor and was released, and

750
00:39:12,281 --> 00:39:15,281
Speaker 4: the sun visor wasn't damaged and it flipped back into

751
00:39:15,281 --> 00:39:19,801
Speaker 4: place without any damage. So it's just pretty beyond doubt

752
00:39:19,801 --> 00:39:21,841
Speaker 4: that Eric was killing the truth.

753
00:39:22,681 --> 00:39:27,321
Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing, and so that was incredibly good evidence and

754
00:39:27,681 --> 00:39:29,761
Speaker 2: tremendous work on your behalf.

755
00:39:31,161 --> 00:39:36,321
Speaker 1: The conviction is quashed. That moment. Was it all you

756
00:39:36,801 --> 00:39:41,241
Speaker 1: dreamt of thought about? Well? It was.

757
00:39:42,401 --> 00:39:46,401
Speaker 4: It was bittersweet, I mean, but our whole lives, forty

758
00:39:46,481 --> 00:39:49,481
Speaker 4: years of our lives been working towards this one point.

759
00:39:49,881 --> 00:39:52,881
Speaker 4: And if I go back to an incident where it

760
00:39:52,881 --> 00:39:55,681
Speaker 4: also had it in that court room when the jury

761
00:39:55,721 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 4: returned with their verdict, and you know how it goes

762
00:39:59,521 --> 00:40:01,561
Speaker 4: the members of the jury. Have you reached a verdict?

763
00:40:01,801 --> 00:40:05,041
Speaker 4: Where have you honor? Say you it's John Button guilty

764
00:40:05,241 --> 00:40:09,761
Speaker 4: or not guilty? Not guilty of honor? Oh my god,

765
00:40:09,761 --> 00:40:11,481
Speaker 4: I'm out of it. I'm going home. I'm fair, I'm

766
00:40:11,481 --> 00:40:13,801
Speaker 4: not going to hang. I felt my neck and thought,

767
00:40:13,841 --> 00:40:15,681
Speaker 4: I'm going to live. I'm gonna live. I looked to

768
00:40:15,721 --> 00:40:17,361
Speaker 4: the back door and I thought, can I hop over

769
00:40:17,401 --> 00:40:19,961
Speaker 4: the dock and can I run to the door? Now,

770
00:40:20,041 --> 00:40:21,961
Speaker 4: I better wait until the judge tells me I can go.

771
00:40:22,801 --> 00:40:25,241
Speaker 4: And I turned back and the clerk, of course, continued

772
00:40:25,281 --> 00:40:27,041
Speaker 4: with is that the verdict of you all?

773
00:40:27,161 --> 00:40:27,201
Speaker 1: On?

774
00:40:27,281 --> 00:40:30,561
Speaker 4: The foreman said, I'm totally sorry, I'm made a mistake.

775
00:40:30,801 --> 00:40:34,961
Speaker 1: We find him guilty. My goodness. So that's where it

776
00:40:35,041 --> 00:40:35,521
Speaker 1: starts from.

777
00:40:35,561 --> 00:40:39,281
Speaker 4: And so to get up to the appeal and exonerated,

778
00:40:40,001 --> 00:40:43,161
Speaker 4: I had to wait at least fifteen seconds, and as

779
00:40:43,241 --> 00:40:48,721
Speaker 4: he changed his fine but overjoyed. But the problem with

780
00:40:48,761 --> 00:40:51,001
Speaker 4: that was that what was I going to do with

781
00:40:51,041 --> 00:40:52,801
Speaker 4: my life now it was over.

782
00:40:53,121 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: My life was over. I had nothing, And.

783
00:40:55,401 --> 00:40:57,561
Speaker 4: It was then I thought, we've got to start up

784
00:40:57,561 --> 00:40:59,001
Speaker 4: an innocent project in wa.

785
00:41:00,281 --> 00:41:02,321
Speaker 1: We got together and got together with a Stell.

786
00:41:02,161 --> 00:41:06,201
Speaker 4: And Tom and Joff and all the team and reporters

787
00:41:06,361 --> 00:41:09,761
Speaker 4: and everybody kind of work out how we could do it.

788
00:41:10,081 --> 00:41:14,641
Speaker 4: We even had then whether all from Griffith University in

789
00:41:14,721 --> 00:41:17,721
Speaker 4: Queensland where they have an innocent project, come over to

790
00:41:17,761 --> 00:41:20,001
Speaker 4: tell us how to do it. We had many a

791
00:41:20,081 --> 00:41:22,201
Speaker 4: meal at the pub and talked about it.

792
00:41:22,281 --> 00:41:24,761
Speaker 1: And after three months I said to Jonathan, I said, Johnny,

793
00:41:25,401 --> 00:41:26,121
Speaker 1: we get in anyway.

794
00:41:26,121 --> 00:41:28,481
Speaker 4: He said, John, everybody wants it, we all need it,

795
00:41:28,561 --> 00:41:30,841
Speaker 4: We desperately want it, but no one's got the time

796
00:41:30,881 --> 00:41:31,601
Speaker 4: to put into it.

797
00:41:32,081 --> 00:41:35,321
Speaker 1: And I said, well, okay, I'll do it. How the

798
00:41:35,361 --> 00:41:36,601
Speaker 1: hell was I going to do it?

799
00:41:36,641 --> 00:41:39,281
Speaker 4: But at that time I was working with our family

800
00:41:39,321 --> 00:41:41,961
Speaker 4: whose son was in jail of being convicted of a

801
00:41:42,081 --> 00:41:46,881
Speaker 4: Merveley had committed. And after his conviction they came to

802
00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:49,681
Speaker 4: me terverly upset, said John, we know that you want

803
00:41:49,681 --> 00:41:52,401
Speaker 4: to set up an innocent project. If we set up

804
00:41:52,521 --> 00:41:54,761
Speaker 4: it for you, will you make this your first case?

805
00:41:55,641 --> 00:41:56,721
Speaker 1: Now? I did nothing.

806
00:41:56,961 --> 00:42:00,281
Speaker 4: I don't want to say I started it, but I didn't.

807
00:42:00,881 --> 00:42:06,201
Speaker 4: They did it, this whole family. The father tad his office.

808
00:42:06,361 --> 00:42:09,841
Speaker 4: His secretary, Maria was organized in how to set up

809
00:42:09,921 --> 00:42:15,361
Speaker 4: corporations and bodies, tax and everything, you know, contracts and constitutions,

810
00:42:15,401 --> 00:42:18,281
Speaker 4: so she did all of that. The young man's girlfriend

811
00:42:18,361 --> 00:42:22,041
Speaker 4: was a wizard. Put them together a legal brief and

812
00:42:22,161 --> 00:42:25,601
Speaker 4: between them they I just stood there and wrote a

813
00:42:25,601 --> 00:42:28,801
Speaker 4: cup of coffee. Did very little, but they got it

814
00:42:28,881 --> 00:42:31,761
Speaker 4: up and money, which was fantastic, and we did. We

815
00:42:31,801 --> 00:42:34,761
Speaker 4: went back with Malcolm mccuska to took on the case

816
00:42:34,801 --> 00:42:38,521
Speaker 4: and we won at the appeal, got them out. They

817
00:42:38,561 --> 00:42:41,721
Speaker 4: all continued working within us and project. To the point

818
00:42:41,801 --> 00:42:44,681
Speaker 4: a few years later after that was that we realized

819
00:42:44,721 --> 00:42:46,721
Speaker 4: that we had all these cases, but we didn't have

820
00:42:47,401 --> 00:42:51,801
Speaker 4: people that could spend enough time and would imagine that

821
00:42:51,881 --> 00:42:55,321
Speaker 4: to read through transcripts and files and statements, you's got

822
00:42:55,321 --> 00:42:57,641
Speaker 4: to spend days and days and days, and people didn't

823
00:42:57,681 --> 00:43:01,041
Speaker 4: have that time. So they went and saw Pam Henry

824
00:43:01,121 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 4: at Edith Town University and straight to her. It's now

825
00:43:05,481 --> 00:43:08,721
Speaker 4: being run out of the university here under the Cellinger

826
00:43:09,681 --> 00:43:13,721
Speaker 4: Justice commissioned traject to something and I spent my eavy

827
00:43:13,761 --> 00:43:17,001
Speaker 4: Wednesday up there with the students working with them. I

828
00:43:17,081 --> 00:43:20,841
Speaker 4: get people call me, what help, what can I do?

829
00:43:20,881 --> 00:43:23,801
Speaker 4: And I take it up to the to the university

830
00:43:23,801 --> 00:43:25,881
Speaker 4: and they start looking at these cases and I did

831
00:43:25,921 --> 00:43:28,921
Speaker 4: the running around picking up the files and whatever. So

832
00:43:29,081 --> 00:43:32,321
Speaker 4: we're working on quite a few cases still. So that

833
00:43:32,441 --> 00:43:37,121
Speaker 4: gave me a lie forget so that that's my whole life.

834
00:43:37,801 --> 00:43:38,441
Speaker 1: Fantastic.

835
00:43:38,481 --> 00:43:40,561
Speaker 2: And you were saying earlier that you think the same

836
00:43:41,521 --> 00:43:45,761
Speaker 2: culture that ended up with you being wrongfully convicted still exists.

837
00:43:46,361 --> 00:43:47,961
Speaker 1: Oh it does.

838
00:43:48,001 --> 00:43:51,841
Speaker 4: It's there's a case not so long ago A chap

839
00:43:52,001 --> 00:43:56,841
Speaker 4: was convicted of murdering his girlfriend just out of pertin.

840
00:43:57,601 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: I think he did twelve years before we started. Well,

841
00:44:00,681 --> 00:44:04,761
Speaker 4: another team actually started looking into it and what they

842
00:44:04,761 --> 00:44:07,441
Speaker 4: found on which they got hold of the video. The

843
00:44:07,481 --> 00:44:11,321
Speaker 4: police video searched his house. Now, one of the things

844
00:44:11,321 --> 00:44:13,681
Speaker 4: that they convicted them on was he had a packet

845
00:44:13,721 --> 00:44:16,641
Speaker 4: of cigarette sitting on his table in his house with

846
00:44:16,801 --> 00:44:20,201
Speaker 4: her blood on it. When they got the video, they

847
00:44:20,241 --> 00:44:22,521
Speaker 4: also got all the photographs that were taken at the

848
00:44:22,721 --> 00:44:25,361
Speaker 4: World abou at the same time the video showed the

849
00:44:26,001 --> 00:44:30,841
Speaker 4: cigarette packet, the photographs didn't, so how did that cigarette

850
00:44:30,881 --> 00:44:34,201
Speaker 4: packet get there. They also had a knife there with

851
00:44:34,321 --> 00:44:38,041
Speaker 4: her blood on it, the murder weapon. But when they

852
00:44:38,161 --> 00:44:41,961
Speaker 4: checked the post bottom and they found out that the

853
00:44:42,041 --> 00:44:45,441
Speaker 4: length of the knife was only half the length of

854
00:44:45,481 --> 00:44:48,561
Speaker 4: the staff wound. Then they found a few other things

855
00:44:48,561 --> 00:44:51,441
Speaker 4: that weren't there when they did a complete search of

856
00:44:51,481 --> 00:44:55,321
Speaker 4: the place with hundreds of people. But it suddenly turned

857
00:44:55,401 --> 00:45:00,401
Speaker 4: up the day after, So he got off again. Please

858
00:45:00,721 --> 00:45:05,321
Speaker 4: please just planting evidence so blatant. So it still happened.

859
00:45:05,921 --> 00:45:10,841
Speaker 2: Right, And I wasn't neglected to mention your contribution in

860
00:45:10,881 --> 00:45:16,801
Speaker 2: getting another Roney convicted person, Darryl Beamish, his conviction quashed.

861
00:45:17,601 --> 00:45:21,161
Speaker 1: What happened there, Well, Derell was a it was.

862
00:45:21,161 --> 00:45:22,961
Speaker 4: A twenty one year old youth at the time, I

863
00:45:22,961 --> 00:45:25,121
Speaker 4: think it was twenty one at the time, deaf and dumb.

864
00:45:25,801 --> 00:45:28,641
Speaker 4: He'd been picked up for a few minor little Lloyds

865
00:45:28,641 --> 00:45:32,961
Speaker 4: thing and just messing around little charges. So when they

866
00:45:33,041 --> 00:45:36,081
Speaker 4: found this woman murdered that, then the book would flats

867
00:45:36,681 --> 00:45:40,561
Speaker 4: in Clermont lived about that area, so he was one

868
00:45:40,601 --> 00:45:42,841
Speaker 4: of the Jews they went and checked up on. Now

869
00:45:43,161 --> 00:45:45,441
Speaker 4: what they did and I turned out after from and

870
00:45:45,481 --> 00:45:49,681
Speaker 4: that they wrote out a confession full confession. It was

871
00:45:49,721 --> 00:45:51,601
Speaker 4: deaf and dumb, and they gave it to him and

872
00:45:51,641 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 4: indicated that they wanted him to copy this onto another

873
00:45:55,001 --> 00:45:58,041
Speaker 4: piece of paper and sign it. Now he had an

874
00:45:58,081 --> 00:46:02,681
Speaker 4: interpreter there which he never said anything what he was doing,

875
00:46:03,041 --> 00:46:04,721
Speaker 4: and he just did what he was told to do.

876
00:46:05,041 --> 00:46:07,481
Speaker 4: He wrote copy this confession on bit of paper and

877
00:46:07,561 --> 00:46:12,801
Speaker 4: signed it. Charged with her murder, sentence to death. Luckily

878
00:46:12,841 --> 00:46:15,681
Speaker 4: it was commuted because they felt sorry for him. He's

879
00:46:15,721 --> 00:46:18,841
Speaker 4: deaf and dumb, but he fills up serving fifteen years

880
00:46:18,881 --> 00:46:23,481
Speaker 4: in jail. But because they believed Eric Cooker in my

881
00:46:23,721 --> 00:46:26,401
Speaker 4: case that they had to believe him because he confessed

882
00:46:26,441 --> 00:46:29,441
Speaker 4: to that one as well. He confessed to murdering Julian

883
00:46:29,521 --> 00:46:32,801
Speaker 4: Veruer as well as Ragie Anderson, so they had to

884
00:46:32,841 --> 00:46:36,601
Speaker 4: accept that confession as well. So after I over released

885
00:46:36,681 --> 00:46:39,921
Speaker 4: Tom Percy came out of court after my exonerations are well,

886
00:46:40,641 --> 00:46:41,521
Speaker 4: means you've just got to.

887
00:46:41,441 --> 00:46:46,521
Speaker 2: Do beamish now. Amazing John, And you know it's I've

888
00:46:46,521 --> 00:46:48,601
Speaker 2: got to say that your story is a testament to

889
00:46:48,761 --> 00:46:54,481
Speaker 2: the power of faith. First, gratitude and forgiveness for what

890
00:46:54,521 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: you've been through. Your spirit is so light, and your

891
00:46:57,521 --> 00:47:01,161
Speaker 2: attitude of the world is so, I mean, wow, I'm

892
00:47:01,201 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: really blown away by that.

893
00:47:03,441 --> 00:47:04,121
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a.

894
00:47:04,121 --> 00:47:07,201
Speaker 4: Wonderful wife out with Would you believe she's carried me

895
00:47:07,321 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 4: all these years she went back to work. She used

896
00:47:10,441 --> 00:47:12,161
Speaker 4: to come out to try and get me to work.

897
00:47:12,361 --> 00:47:15,641
Speaker 4: I was sady pressed, I couldn't work. It's a big player.

898
00:47:15,801 --> 00:47:18,801
Speaker 4: And I'd be working on a building site on my

899
00:47:18,881 --> 00:47:20,681
Speaker 4: own and she'd come out to work with me with

900
00:47:20,801 --> 00:47:23,681
Speaker 4: the children, put them in a playpen on the slab,

901
00:47:23,921 --> 00:47:27,001
Speaker 4: and she'd labor for me all day long, come home

902
00:47:27,001 --> 00:47:29,921
Speaker 4: at night to cook and wash an iron and all that.

903
00:47:30,001 --> 00:47:33,641
Speaker 4: Fingers bleeding day after day, week after week. Findly she

904
00:47:33,681 --> 00:47:35,081
Speaker 4: wake up and said, I'm going to get a full

905
00:47:35,121 --> 00:47:38,401
Speaker 4: time job at a ossice. But then she did, and

906
00:47:38,601 --> 00:47:40,841
Speaker 4: she was the breadwinner for many, many years, and she's

907
00:47:40,921 --> 00:47:43,801
Speaker 4: carrying me all the way through up until now. So

908
00:47:44,641 --> 00:47:48,481
Speaker 4: it's been wonderful having that people have supported me. But

909
00:47:48,561 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 4: I spend a lot of my time now going around

910
00:47:50,521 --> 00:47:55,001
Speaker 4: schools and talking to Year nine's vainly on the justice system,

911
00:47:55,121 --> 00:47:56,481
Speaker 4: discavages of justice.

912
00:47:56,641 --> 00:47:59,521
Speaker 1: But one thing I have to point out to them.

913
00:47:59,561 --> 00:48:02,521
Speaker 4: It's so important that even though what I'm going to

914
00:48:02,561 --> 00:48:05,081
Speaker 4: tell them might make them think that we have a

915
00:48:05,121 --> 00:48:09,561
Speaker 4: shocking system, shocking police force and courts and everything. We haven't.

916
00:48:09,561 --> 00:48:11,481
Speaker 4: We've got a good system, one of the best in

917
00:48:11,521 --> 00:48:14,641
Speaker 4: the world. We've got a fantastic police force. We've got

918
00:48:14,641 --> 00:48:18,121
Speaker 4: everything going for us. But they need our respect and

919
00:48:18,161 --> 00:48:20,601
Speaker 4: support to do the job we want them to do.

920
00:48:21,481 --> 00:48:23,681
Speaker 4: I mean, it's better enough than being hated by the

921
00:48:23,721 --> 00:48:26,441
Speaker 4: bad guys. At the moment, they've been hated by the

922
00:48:26,481 --> 00:48:29,321
Speaker 4: good guys. We can't have that. If we want them

923
00:48:29,321 --> 00:48:32,081
Speaker 4: to do the job properly, we've got to support them,

924
00:48:32,201 --> 00:48:33,841
Speaker 4: respect them, give them.

925
00:48:33,721 --> 00:48:35,321
Speaker 1: All the tools they need to do that.

926
00:48:36,161 --> 00:48:39,361
Speaker 4: And unfortunately, you're right, we'll find one or two people,

927
00:48:39,601 --> 00:48:43,441
Speaker 4: unfortunately high up that will come up the system. But

928
00:48:43,521 --> 00:48:45,721
Speaker 4: don't take that out on the police force and the

929
00:48:46,041 --> 00:48:51,001
Speaker 4: system and everything it isn't then the whole fault comes

930
00:48:51,041 --> 00:48:55,761
Speaker 4: back to us. Everybody over eighteen. We're the ones that

931
00:48:56,201 --> 00:48:59,721
Speaker 4: too apathetic. We don't want to get involved. Oh well,

932
00:49:00,881 --> 00:49:03,201
Speaker 4: I haven't got time. I'm feel sorry it's for them,

933
00:49:03,241 --> 00:49:04,841
Speaker 4: but no, I've got my.

934
00:49:04,841 --> 00:49:08,481
Speaker 1: Li to live. We're the ones that could change it

935
00:49:09,041 --> 00:49:10,281
Speaker 1: and they win.

936
00:49:10,921 --> 00:49:12,921
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, John, I mean, the police force is

937
00:49:12,961 --> 00:49:16,241
Speaker 2: just the community in a uniform doing what they would

938
00:49:16,241 --> 00:49:20,241
Speaker 2: otherwise do so. You're absolutely right and your attitude is admirable.

939
00:49:20,401 --> 00:49:20,641
Speaker 1: John.

940
00:49:20,641 --> 00:49:22,761
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing your story. It has

941
00:49:22,801 --> 00:49:24,641
Speaker 2: so much to offer people. I guess there's one piece

942
00:49:24,681 --> 00:49:27,681
Speaker 2: of advice you'd give people when questioned by the police,

943
00:49:28,281 --> 00:49:30,561
Speaker 2: have your lawyer there, and don't sign anything.

944
00:49:31,601 --> 00:49:35,841
Speaker 4: Absolutely your name, you've addressed your age, and please, sir,

945
00:49:36,281 --> 00:49:39,401
Speaker 4: may I have someone with me before they say anything else.

946
00:49:39,921 --> 00:49:43,641
Speaker 4: But always remember the please sir respect. That's the way,

947
00:49:44,081 --> 00:49:51,601
Speaker 4: all right. Thank you, John, Thank you. That was John

948
00:49:51,601 --> 00:49:52,081
Speaker 4: Button there.

949
00:49:52,401 --> 00:49:56,041
Speaker 2: It is an incredible story of faith and persistence and perseverance.

950
00:49:56,041 --> 00:49:58,321
Speaker 2: And I guess when you have those sort of qualities,

951
00:49:58,361 --> 00:50:00,961
Speaker 2: people do come to you, like as Still Blackburn and

952
00:50:01,041 --> 00:50:05,561
Speaker 2: Tom Percy and even Edgar Cook a remarkable story. If

953
00:50:05,601 --> 00:50:08,001
Speaker 2: you are in that situation, get a good lawyer. That's

954
00:50:08,001 --> 00:50:10,161
Speaker 2: the first advice I'd give you. But if you can

955
00:50:10,281 --> 00:50:12,921
Speaker 2: help solve a crime, always call crime Stoppers one hundred,

956
00:50:12,921 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: triple three, triple zero, or if you don't trust the police,

957
00:50:15,521 --> 00:50:18,281
Speaker 2: you can always email me Adam Shanner, writer at gmail

958
00:50:18,481 --> 00:50:19,801
Speaker 2: dot com.

959
00:50:19,961 --> 00:50:22,201
Speaker 1: This has been Adam Shanfer Urukrim. Thank you for listening.