1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,450 --> 00:00:08,959 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. It's a great time to be working in the 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,480 Sean Aylmer: tech sector. They are plenty of opportunities, and if you've 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,720 Sean Aylmer: got the right skills, you can expect to be in 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,040 Sean Aylmer: high demand, but it's still a very male- dominated industry. 6 00:00:18,489 --> 00:00:21,120 Sean Aylmer: I'm talking to somebody today, who's got a somewhat unique 7 00:00:21,210 --> 00:00:23,650 Sean Aylmer: insight into the sector, not just as a woman in 8 00:00:23,650 --> 00:00:27,160 Sean Aylmer: a senior technology role, but actually overseeing technology, at a 9 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,880 Sean Aylmer: listed company, SEEK. Which is Australia's number one employment platform. 10 00:00:31,190 --> 00:00:33,861 Sean Aylmer: Lisa Tobin is the managing director of technology at SEEK. Lisa, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:33,861 --> 00:00:37,290 Lisa Tobin: Thank you very much. Great to be here. 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,680 Sean Aylmer: So given the dearth of women in senior tech roles, 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:42,919 Sean Aylmer: how did you end up there? 14 00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:47,540 Lisa Tobin: Well, it's a little bit by accident actually, but probably goes 15 00:00:47,540 --> 00:00:50,210 Lisa Tobin: to the core things that I love. I love solving 16 00:00:50,210 --> 00:00:53,890 Lisa Tobin: problems, I love making things better, I love seeing strategy 17 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:58,360 Lisa Tobin: and execution, that's really what technology delivers for most companies 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,740 Lisa Tobin: these days. So I literally did fall into technology, because, 19 00:01:03,990 --> 00:01:07,560 Lisa Tobin: people were needed to work out what the business needed, 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,900 Lisa Tobin: how to leverage technology, what technology would mean for how 21 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:14,750 Lisa Tobin: they operated, how they could compete, what they could do. 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,220 Lisa Tobin: And so, I became a technology person, this was last century. 23 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:23,240 Sean Aylmer: Right. One thing about technology which I think, it sort of does it 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,929 Sean Aylmer: a disservice. It's such a broad range of skills are 25 00:01:26,930 --> 00:01:30,330 Sean Aylmer: needed within technology, so not everyone has to be a 26 00:01:30,350 --> 00:01:32,959 Sean Aylmer: coder, I suppose, is the point. You went through and 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,759 Sean Aylmer: talked about the need for strategic skills, and solving problems. 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,620 Sean Aylmer: So when people think of technology, it is a lot 29 00:01:38,620 --> 00:01:40,450 Sean Aylmer: more than knowing how to code. 30 00:01:41,060 --> 00:01:45,309 Lisa Tobin: Yeah, that's absolutely really important, Sean. It is one of 31 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:49,690 Lisa Tobin: the most diverse professions. And so there's really a whole 32 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:52,930 Lisa Tobin: body of different skills, and it's the breadth of those 33 00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:56,790 Lisa Tobin: skills that, in my view, allow technology and strategy to 34 00:01:56,890 --> 00:02:03,000 Lisa Tobin: entwine successfully. So I think for me, with increasing automation 35 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:07,120 Lisa Tobin: and with the fast pace of technology change, I've got 36 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,420 Lisa Tobin: to focus on the importance of interpersonal skills, in technology. 37 00:02:11,810 --> 00:02:14,610 Lisa Tobin: So, what I call boundary riders, that can really join 38 00:02:14,610 --> 00:02:20,060 Lisa Tobin: the conversations across areas of business, across different technologies, and 39 00:02:20,060 --> 00:02:23,620 Lisa Tobin: can orchestrate solutions that really fit a company's strategy. So 40 00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:27,960 Lisa Tobin: at SEEK, we're recruiting for, a whole range of technology 41 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,169 Lisa Tobin: professions across a number of levels. So we have a 42 00:02:31,169 --> 00:02:34,639 Lisa Tobin: deep passion for great software engineers, as you mentioned, and 43 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,930 Lisa Tobin: like many people, we can't get enough of them, but 44 00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:39,770 Lisa Tobin: we also need those orchestrators, the joiners of solutions and 45 00:02:39,770 --> 00:02:43,140 Lisa Tobin: teams. So the analysts, and the project managers, the architects, 46 00:02:43,669 --> 00:02:47,169 Lisa Tobin: the data experts for us, because every company's crown jewels, 47 00:02:47,169 --> 00:02:50,470 Lisa Tobin: is it's data. And the data they hold on behalf 48 00:02:50,470 --> 00:02:53,500 Lisa Tobin: of the customers. And so, then that brings you onto 49 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:57,230 Lisa Tobin: security. So, you always need to keep the data that 50 00:02:57,230 --> 00:03:00,680 Lisa Tobin: you are entrusted with on behalf of your customers, safe. 51 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,910 Lisa Tobin: So, there's just such a broad range of skills across technology. 52 00:03:05,260 --> 00:03:07,880 Sean Aylmer: There's also the things, which in my work in newspapers 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,580 Sean Aylmer: for many years, and as we were developing websites, I 54 00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:12,530 Sean Aylmer: remember product people. Which I had no idea what a 55 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:16,990 Sean Aylmer: product person was. But a product person, goes from technology, 56 00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:19,300 Sean Aylmer: to user experience. And I remember sitting next to one, 57 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:21,540 Sean Aylmer: one time and she was saying, I don't like that widget 58 00:03:21,540 --> 00:03:23,889 Sean Aylmer: on that webpage. No, I didn't like that widget on 59 00:03:23,889 --> 00:03:26,119 Sean Aylmer: that webpage either, but I didn't think I was allowed 60 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,080 Sean Aylmer: to say it. And this product person's whole role, really 61 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,380 Sean Aylmer: was to make life easier for someone who wasn't a 62 00:03:32,380 --> 00:03:35,080 Sean Aylmer: technologist. And what I'm telling the story, because it just 63 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,980 Sean Aylmer: demonstrated to me, she was a technology person without any 64 00:03:39,270 --> 00:03:43,100 Sean Aylmer: coding skills, without any, even project management skills. It was all 65 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:44,470 Sean Aylmer: about user experience for her. 66 00:03:44,910 --> 00:03:48,860 Lisa Tobin: Yes. I mean, technology now is that whole idea of 67 00:03:48,860 --> 00:03:53,570 Lisa Tobin: human, machine interface. Technology is so pervasive in our lives, 68 00:03:53,990 --> 00:03:57,340 Lisa Tobin: that the real skill in deploying technology in the skills 69 00:03:57,340 --> 00:04:01,230 Lisa Tobin: technologists needs to bring, is to understand that experience, and 70 00:04:01,230 --> 00:04:05,100 Lisa Tobin: that interface. So exactly the example that you talk about 71 00:04:05,460 --> 00:04:09,390 Lisa Tobin: and at SEEK, we have multidisciplinary teams, so my software 72 00:04:09,390 --> 00:04:13,390 Lisa Tobin: engineers with the product managers, really sort of working together 73 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,470 Lisa Tobin: to understand how does it feel for our customers, for 74 00:04:16,470 --> 00:04:19,470 Lisa Tobin: our hires, for our candidates to use our services, what 75 00:04:19,470 --> 00:04:21,850 Lisa Tobin: will they be wanting. How does it feel when that 76 00:04:21,850 --> 00:04:25,100 Lisa Tobin: service comes after this service, or that widget sits on 77 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:26,370 Lisa Tobin: that part of the screen? 78 00:04:26,490 --> 00:04:26,491 Sean Aylmer: Yep. 79 00:04:26,491 --> 00:04:30,409 Lisa Tobin: And that's a core part for many product companies, of 80 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:32,730 Lisa Tobin: how they actually build better solutions- 81 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:32,921 Sean Aylmer: Okay. 82 00:04:32,921 --> 00:04:35,330 Lisa Tobin: ... So that's very much core and central in what we do. 83 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:38,720 Sean Aylmer: So is the sector as male dominated as ever, is it improving at all? 84 00:04:40,450 --> 00:04:45,620 Lisa Tobin: I think actually we've seen a really great realization and 85 00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:48,120 Lisa Tobin: sort of, what I would call we've now got momentum, 86 00:04:48,690 --> 00:04:52,450 Lisa Tobin: that things are definitely getting better. So we've got that 87 00:04:52,450 --> 00:04:56,670 Lisa Tobin: critical momentum of most people understanding, that most workforces are 88 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,380 Lisa Tobin: much more successful by being more diverse, and just simply 89 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:03,080 Lisa Tobin: reflecting the communities that they serve and they operate in. 90 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,650 Lisa Tobin: And so certainly for SEEK that means diverse workforces that 91 00:05:06,650 --> 00:05:09,720 Lisa Tobin: live in all of the countries we operate in, and 92 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,150 Lisa Tobin: we are seeing more and more females in the industry, 93 00:05:12,610 --> 00:05:16,450 Lisa Tobin: because of that breadth of technology needs that we just 94 00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:19,169 Lisa Tobin: talked about. But there is always more to be done. 95 00:05:19,260 --> 00:05:22,490 Lisa Tobin: I think we're sitting about, 30% of our workforce is 96 00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:26,390 Lisa Tobin: female, that doesn't reflect, our broader communities. So we've still 97 00:05:26,390 --> 00:05:27,160 Lisa Tobin: got work to do. 98 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:29,409 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me Lisa, we'll be back in a minute. 99 00:05:33,980 --> 00:05:36,839 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Lisa Tobin, managing director of 100 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,130 Sean Aylmer: technology at SEEK. Okay. I mean, SEEK is somewhat unusual 101 00:05:41,410 --> 00:05:44,920 Sean Aylmer: in that your management teams is 50, 50 male, female. And 102 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,700 Sean Aylmer: your board, I think it's five men, three women. 103 00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:47,980 Lisa Tobin: Yeah. 104 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:51,430 Sean Aylmer: Which isn't 50, 50 but actually relatively better than other ASX 105 00:05:51,430 --> 00:05:55,570 Sean Aylmer: listed companies. You've worked at National Australia Bank before, Transurban 106 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,550 Sean Aylmer: and without reflecting on any of those companies specifically, what's 107 00:05:58,550 --> 00:06:00,300 Sean Aylmer: it like to work in an environment where you do 108 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:04,440 Sean Aylmer: actually have a good mix, is it the diversity views, 109 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:05,930 Sean Aylmer: what is it that makes it different? 110 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,780 Lisa Tobin: Well, yes. I strongly believe in the power of diverse teams, 111 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,010 Lisa Tobin: the diversity of thought and experience. And so the boards 112 00:06:15,010 --> 00:06:17,969 Lisa Tobin: that I've come into contact with that have that diversity, 113 00:06:18,230 --> 00:06:22,610 Lisa Tobin: of gender, of experience of thinking styles, their strategy is 114 00:06:22,610 --> 00:06:27,440 Lisa Tobin: better. They understand that strategy is great, but execution capability 115 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,119 Lisa Tobin: is what really matters. And so they understand what it 116 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:36,320 Lisa Tobin: will take in terms of engaging a workforce, really understanding 117 00:06:36,380 --> 00:06:40,270 Lisa Tobin: what the diverse stakeholders of any company now need, want. 118 00:06:40,580 --> 00:06:43,430 Lisa Tobin: And as I said before, to have a board, to 119 00:06:43,430 --> 00:06:46,310 Lisa Tobin: have a workforce that reflects the community and the different 120 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:51,339 Lisa Tobin: experiences in our community, just helps any company understand what 121 00:06:51,339 --> 00:06:53,930 Lisa Tobin: they need to do to be really successful, and to 122 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:57,670 Lisa Tobin: deliver what our head of strategy and product calls, a 123 00:06:57,670 --> 00:06:59,700 Lisa Tobin: beautiful and frictionless experience. 124 00:07:00,870 --> 00:07:02,770 Sean Aylmer: That sounds like something that a head of product and 125 00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:03,150 Sean Aylmer: strategy would say, a beautiful- 126 00:07:03,151 --> 00:07:03,152 Lisa Tobin: Yes. 127 00:07:03,152 --> 00:07:08,150 Sean Aylmer: ... Frictional experience. Not always easy to get to. Now look I mentioned- 128 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,710 Lisa Tobin: Really hard, but an ongoing goal that we have to keep striving for. 129 00:07:12,070 --> 00:07:15,090 Lisa Tobin: And so a really good sort of, polar star or 130 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:18,670 Lisa Tobin: flag on the hill, that really just, does the passion 131 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:20,401 Lisa Tobin: in SEEK about the journeys never finished. 132 00:07:20,401 --> 00:07:22,600 Sean Aylmer: ... Well, I mean, I'll give you an example. I 133 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,210 Sean Aylmer: looked up the word cyber security professionals the other day, 134 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:26,970 Sean Aylmer: and went to SEEK. 135 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:27,480 Lisa Tobin: Yes. 136 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,390 Sean Aylmer: And looked up C- Y- B- E- R, that's all 137 00:07:29,390 --> 00:07:32,770 Sean Aylmer: I put in. And there were 2100 jobs in Australia, 138 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,910 Sean Aylmer: for it. And it was actually a frictionless experience. And I mean, I think that is really 139 00:07:38,210 --> 00:07:40,810 Sean Aylmer: important, I mean, what it actually also showed, is just 140 00:07:40,970 --> 00:07:44,810 Sean Aylmer: how many jobs are available for people, and that with cyber. Presumably 141 00:07:44,810 --> 00:07:47,900 Sean Aylmer: in technology, there's all sorts of demand for different jobs, 142 00:07:48,020 --> 00:07:49,429 Sean Aylmer: but it was a frictionless experience. 143 00:07:49,810 --> 00:07:53,510 Lisa Tobin: Yes. And so I'm very glad to hear that. And I mean, 144 00:07:53,730 --> 00:07:57,100 Lisa Tobin: you mentioned cyber and, you don't have to, you look 145 00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:01,820 Lisa Tobin: in any channel, and any media statement, all companies have 146 00:08:01,820 --> 00:08:06,360 Lisa Tobin: a voracious appetite at the moment, to gather and build 147 00:08:06,460 --> 00:08:10,370 Lisa Tobin: a security team, that really is fit for purpose in 148 00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:16,520 Lisa Tobin: these very challenging times. I mean, most companies are managing 149 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,720 Lisa Tobin: to protect their defenses and perimeters from literally, hundreds of 150 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,690 Lisa Tobin: thousands of attempted intrusions a day. That's the world we 151 00:08:23,690 --> 00:08:24,120 Lisa Tobin: live in. 152 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:24,150 Sean Aylmer: Yep. 153 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:27,490 Lisa Tobin: That's the game that needs to be played. And so 154 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:34,590 Lisa Tobin: for any company, building, supporting, engaging with a multi- skilled 155 00:08:34,660 --> 00:08:37,620 Lisa Tobin: security team, is simply just a cost of doing business 156 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:38,329 Lisa Tobin: these days. 157 00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:40,450 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what are the sort of skills that employers 158 00:08:40,450 --> 00:08:44,090 Sean Aylmer: are looking for? It's well beyond, people who can work 159 00:08:44,090 --> 00:08:46,020 Sean Aylmer: out whether their emails are being hacked. 160 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:48,960 Lisa Tobin: Yeah. I think it goes, Sean, back to what we were 161 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Lisa Tobin: talking about before, technology is so broad. The most important thing, 162 00:08:53,530 --> 00:08:58,290 Lisa Tobin: I think, which is goes a little bit beyond technology. What 163 00:08:58,290 --> 00:09:03,300 Lisa Tobin: I think is most in demand, is that endless curiosity, 164 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,929 Lisa Tobin: that passion for learning, because technology is evolving so quickly, 165 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:12,980 Lisa Tobin: and businesses problems that the need for business agility and 166 00:09:12,980 --> 00:09:19,410 Lisa Tobin: change in product, changing strategy is just increasing in pace. 167 00:09:19,780 --> 00:09:24,100 Lisa Tobin: From our point of view, deeply understanding what our candidates, 168 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:28,950 Lisa Tobin: and hires really need, understanding how their world is changing, 169 00:09:29,090 --> 00:09:32,050 Lisa Tobin: means we need people with endless curiosity. And that's really 170 00:09:32,050 --> 00:09:36,510 Lisa Tobin: the core attribute I think. Technology skill change quite quickly. 171 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,050 Lisa Tobin: We need people who are able to continue to learn, 172 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:43,470 Lisa Tobin: that have a real passion for knowing what's next. How 173 00:09:43,470 --> 00:09:45,410 Lisa Tobin: does this make what we want to do as a 174 00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:46,500 Lisa Tobin: business get better? 175 00:09:47,150 --> 00:09:50,880 Sean Aylmer: So stepping back a bit, Australia's technology sector, seems to 176 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,020 Sean Aylmer: have done really well in the last decade. We've got some market 177 00:09:54,020 --> 00:09:59,440 Sean Aylmer: leading players, SEEK being one, REA being another. WiseTech global, 178 00:09:59,490 --> 00:10:02,740 Sean Aylmer: Xero, Afterpay, which of course has recently been bought. We 179 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:05,520 Sean Aylmer: think of them as tech stocks, but they're basically services 180 00:10:05,740 --> 00:10:08,939 Sean Aylmer: using technology. Where do you think the Australian tech sector 181 00:10:09,050 --> 00:10:10,140 Sean Aylmer: will be in a decade or so? 182 00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:14,900 Lisa Tobin: I think it's all going to be around how we 183 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:18,280 Lisa Tobin: out compete, as I said before of that human interaction, 184 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,500 Lisa Tobin: and technology. Technology is going to be blended into more 185 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:25,240 Lisa Tobin: of our lives, the rise of voice, of virtual reality, 186 00:10:25,510 --> 00:10:28,809 Lisa Tobin: the ongoing march of automation and digitization in our daily 187 00:10:28,809 --> 00:10:32,420 Lisa Tobin: lives. And I think for Australia, we just naturally, our 188 00:10:32,420 --> 00:10:35,760 Lisa Tobin: culture is that we have inquiring minds and problem solving 189 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,439 Lisa Tobin: minds. And so I think we have the right psyche 190 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,429 Lisa Tobin: to tackle fast paced change. And so I think we'll 191 00:10:41,429 --> 00:10:44,130 Lisa Tobin: continue to grow our presence in the global tech market. 192 00:10:44,850 --> 00:10:48,609 Lisa Tobin: I think, there's great awareness across businesses, that is a 193 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:52,470 Lisa Tobin: market. That we are well equipped to compete in. I 194 00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:56,809 Lisa Tobin: think educators understand, we need to skill a workforce in 195 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:00,260 Lisa Tobin: that way of thinking. I think our natural problem solving 196 00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:03,240 Lisa Tobin: skills, perhaps I'm a very much a product of our culture, 197 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:07,270 Lisa Tobin: will allow us to punch above our weight in the 198 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,270 Lisa Tobin: world sector. 199 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,580 Sean Aylmer: Lisa, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 200 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,100 Lisa Tobin: Thank you very much, Sean. 201 00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:15,640 Sean Aylmer: That was Lisa Tobin, managing director of technology, at SEEK. 202 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:18,370 Sean Aylmer: This is a Fear and Greed daily interview. Join me 203 00:11:18,370 --> 00:11:20,620 Sean Aylmer: every morning, for the full Fear and Greed podcast, with 204 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:22,819 Sean Aylmer: all the business news. You need to know. I'm Sean 205 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:24,079 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Enjoy your day.