1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: Before we begin. This podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence. 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: This is a production by The Australian and our subscribers 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: here episodes first and get full access to photos, video, 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: news stories and features plus all Australia's best journalism twenty 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: four to seven. Join us at Gangstersghost dot com dot 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: a U. This is episode two of The Gangster's Ghost. 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: To really get into this story here episode one first 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: at Gangstersghost dot com dot AU. 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: When I went on this venture with Matt, I knew 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: that I would find a monster, and I wasn't really sure. 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: I just knew I wanted to find the truth. And 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: so far in John's childhood, I think I have found 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: a monster, but that monster was certainly not John. What 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm finding is a little boy that was brought up 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: in horrific circumstances, flogged by his grandfather, flogged by his mother, 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 2: and then goes on to go to the Gosford's Boys' Home, 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: where the head of the boy's home says to one 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: of John's friends later in life, oh, we flogged it 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 2: out of him too, Like everywhere this little boy turned, 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: he got flogged. What does people expect or is that 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: what was expected of him. You know, he goes down 22 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: to his mother. 23 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: This is Kelly Slater Reagan, former New South Wales copper, 24 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 3: sheep farmer, wheat grower, and also the cousin to Johnny Reagan, 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 3: one of the toughest, most feared and hated gangsters in 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: Australian history. For years now, Kelly and I have been 27 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 3: on the trail of the true story behind Reagan. In 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: myth they called him the Magician, the man who could 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: make people disappear. They say he murdered between eight and 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: twelve people, including a child, But who was he really? 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: Almost fifty years after he was gunned down in a 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 3: Sydney suburban street by three assassins, aged just twenty nine, 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: Kelly and her family want to know the truth about 34 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 3: him and given his murder is one of New South Wales' 35 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: most enduring cold cases. Who killed Reagan and why? From 36 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: the beginning of our investigation, I asked Kelly to keep 37 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 3: an audio diary to freely express what was going on 38 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 3: in her mind and her heart as we sifted through 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: the fact and fiction surrounding her notorious relative. So she did. 40 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: He goes down to his mother. 41 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,399 Speaker 4: At school with a bloody nurse she wants. 42 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: Don't come home to your bloody No hugs, no cuddles, 43 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 2: no genuine affection or kindness. What sort of damage does 44 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: that do to a little boy? Is what I'm thinking today. 45 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: And the other thing I'm thinking is where was his 46 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: father's family, my family? Where were they? 47 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: You know, I've been fascinated by Stuart John Reagan for decades. 48 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: He was the last of the old school gangsters. A 49 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: pimp and standover man in his teens, a rapist and 50 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: murderer by his mid twenties, A man so unpredictably violent 51 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: that just the mention of his name struck fear into 52 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 3: Sydney's criminal miliere, and not just a few police officers. 53 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: Reagan wore a bulletproof vest and was always accompanied by 54 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: a bodyguard. According to all reports, he was a bona 55 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: fide psychopath with all the cliched traits, cruelty to animals, 56 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 3: no empathy, cold and violent and brutal. When Kelly joined 57 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 3: me on this journey into the world of her long 58 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: dead cousin, we both knew there had to be more 59 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 3: to him than a couple of brief television documentaries and 60 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: the occasional cameo in true crime books, where he was 61 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: invariably described as a man so heenous he thought nothing 62 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: of killing and disposing of a toddler, the child of 63 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 3: one of his lovers, because the infant annoyed him. Stuart 64 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: John Reagan was the worst of the worst. Take this 65 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: from Suburban Gangsters, a Channel nine true crime documentary series 66 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: hosted by journalist Adam Shand that went to air in 67 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: two thousand and nineteen. 68 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 5: This is the story of the magician Stuart John Reagan. 69 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 5: Reagan was a pimp, rapist, standover man, and child murderer 70 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:06,799 Speaker 5: who enjoyed inflicting pain. 71 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 6: Stuart John Reagan was a malicious, vicious, violent criminal whom 72 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 6: I would raid among one of, if not the worst 73 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 6: criminal I ever came across during my retire police career. 74 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 7: Of all the criminals I ever knew were dealt with 75 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 7: as a crime reporter, Reagan would probably have been the 76 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 7: most vicious and deadly of the lot, the most heartless. 77 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 5: Stuart John Reagan was born in the quiet country town 78 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 5: of Young New South Wales in nineteen forty five. Not 79 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 5: much is known about his early life, apart from his 80 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 5: love of violence. 81 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: Well, if you're ever looking for a psychopath. 82 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 8: Reagan ticks all the boxes. 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 7: No one was surprised to learn that as a child 84 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 7: he killed animals. He harmed animals. There was a story 85 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 7: that he used to pitchfork to kill a possum. He 86 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 7: killed kittens and dogs, and he just had no empathy 87 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 7: for any living being whatsoever. 88 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: These are the types of stories repeated over and over 89 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: about Reagan. Kelly has heard them all, but she wanted 90 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: to dig deeper, so we started at the beginning. Who 91 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: were his parents, Claire Mary Raul and Alfred Frederick Reagan. 92 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 3: Was Reagan like a chemical compound, the amalgam of two 93 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 3: evil forces? Was he a natural born killer? Or did 94 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: something happen to him in his formative years? What occurred 95 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: in his childhood that might betray a future of violence 96 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 3: and a complete lack of respect for human life? This 97 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: was the puzzle Kelly and I were faced with. She'd 98 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: also need to take a long, hard look at herself, 99 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: So we started our search in the tiny township of Young, 100 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: the cherry capital of Australia on the southwestern slopes of 101 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: New South Wales, where Reagan was born and where this 102 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: whole story began. Young is a small country town the 103 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: Reagans were one of the pioneering families in this part 104 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: of Australia, and there are still Reagans in the phone book. 105 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: We needed to go back to his school, find schoolmates, 106 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: if any were still alive, go to his childhood homes 107 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: and discover what his life was like as a kid. 108 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 3: We had to piece together the birth of a gangster, 109 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 3: and crucially, we had to uncover that monster that has 110 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: haunted this story for decades, Reagan's mother, Claire, the woman 111 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: they called the Colonel. I'm journalist Matthew Condon and This 112 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: is the Gangster's Ghost, a podcast from The Australian. In 113 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 3: this investigation, we uncover previously unreported facts about the short 114 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 3: lived criminal career of Stuart John Reagan, speak to his family, 115 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: friends and business associates who go on the record for 116 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: the first time, link him to one of the most 117 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: notorious mass murders in Australian history, and uncover secret audio 118 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 3: recordings that will bring the ghost of Johnny Reagan back 119 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 3: to life. This podcast started out as a clinical look 120 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: at one of Australia's most reviled gangsters, but when the 121 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: Reagan family came on board, the project took on another 122 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: dimension and begged the question, how does a family cope 123 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 3: with the generational stain of a murderer whose death was 124 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 3: celebrated by criminals and police alike. This is episode two 125 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 3: the Colonel. In the early days of this investigation, I 126 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: took it for granted that Kel, a strong and uncompromising woman, 127 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: loyal to family and with an unwavering moral compass, would 128 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: take this plunge into her family history in her stride. 129 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: But as time went on, I understood how deeply the 130 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: whole thing affected her. The more we learned, the more 131 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: it went straight to the heart. This is another entry 132 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: in Kelly's personal audio diary. 133 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: Years later. I'm sitting in a police recruitment interview, being 134 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: grilled on a boy that turned into a monster and 135 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: a man. And now I'm starting to think, well, the 136 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: monster was created, and then the myth was created to 137 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 2: fit the monster, and it's just wrong. It's so wrong. 138 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 8: You know. 139 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: I'm open and prepared to see that John was a 140 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: murderer and that he committed atrocious crimes. I understand that, 141 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: But I'm finding a little boy that's stuck up for 142 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: the underdog, didn't allow the big kids to bully the 143 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: little kids. I'm saying that a murderer was created, but 144 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: I'm not saying a child murderer, So I guess we 145 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 2: continue to dig. 146 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: That digging took us to the small town of muham Borough, 147 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 3: only about thirty kilometers south of Young Claire. Mary Raoul 148 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 3: was born there in nineteen thirteen. Her father, John Patrick, 149 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: was a farmer. From the outset, it appears Claire wasn't 150 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: backwards in coming forward. In her twenties, she was training 151 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 3: and racing greyhounds at the murham Borough Coursing Club and 152 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: was regularly in the winner's circle. In nineteen thirty eight 153 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: in the Kurrawong Stakes, she came second with her dog 154 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 3: Jim's Lass, and at some point she met sheepsharer Alfred 155 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: Frederick Reagan from Young Kelly has vague memories of her 156 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: great uncle. 157 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 4: Alf Uncle alf used to be a shearer and he 158 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 4: used to travel around like all the western areas back 159 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 4: in those days. 160 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 9: Ready for the first run. Each man bring homes and 161 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 9: cutters for the hand piece. The rest of the machinery 162 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 9: belongs to the owner of the ship. There were flanel shirts. 163 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 4: Of travel out and you'd cheer four weeks and ended 164 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 4: at shearing sheds all around this place, like Hillstone and 165 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 4: Griffith and everywhere else. 166 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 9: In this game, more hayes means less speed and damaged 167 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 9: seap as well. 168 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: So I've been told he was a very good sharer. 169 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 4: But the problem with Uncle Alf was that once he 170 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: finished hearing, he'd come home and then he would drink. 171 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 4: But I can remember him being down the main street. 172 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 4: He used to sit outside the old Tafe building which 173 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 4: is just up from the Australian Hotel, which is where 174 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 4: he drank. And he used to sit out there on 175 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 4: a bench and wait for us kids to come and 176 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 4: we run across the road because Dad's shop was over 177 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 4: the other side, and he'd give us too. 178 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 2: Bob to go and get some lollies. 179 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: He used to always tip his hat to ask the 180 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 4: ladies as they walked past. He was a very very 181 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 4: old gentlemanly person like he was always. 182 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: How Alf and Claire actually met is lost to history. 183 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 3: Was he shearing in her neck of the woods? Did 184 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: they meet in a pub? The Regans don't know. Perhaps 185 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: Alf and Claire took the steam train, a short thirty 186 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: kilometer ride between Young and mum Burro when they were courting, 187 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: But courting maybe the wrong word to use in this case. 188 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: That would imply a conventional romance, the thrill of falling 189 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: in love. Nothing was conventional about this relationship. It was 190 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: odd from the start and quickly became peculiar. Alf and 191 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: Claire were married in nineteen forty four at Hillston, a 192 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 3: small town three hundred kilometers west of both Young and Murramborough. 193 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: The family can only speculate why they married so far 194 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: from their respective homes. Perhaps Alf was shearing in the 195 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: region at the time. There's a theory that Claire was 196 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: working as a bar maid at a hotel there. Still, 197 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 3: it was an odd start to a marriage that very 198 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: quickly proved to be a mistake. In every family, there 199 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,359 Speaker 3: is an outlier, a person whose life becomes a satellite 200 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: to the main family game, a curio not worthy of 201 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: consideration or even basic respect, just as sick pigeons are 202 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: rejected by the flock. Alf's life upon marrying Claire seemed 203 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: to have been jettisoned from the normal functioning of the 204 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: Greater Reagan family. In fact, Claire's existence was completely ignored. 205 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: This is Kelly talking to her dad Lindsey about this 206 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: strange affair. 207 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 8: I never knew that Uncle alf Ever got married. I 208 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 8: didn't know that Uncle alf Ever was involved with the 209 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 8: woman because I'd never ever seen him with the lady. 210 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 3: Tell me what this seems extraordinary? Given the size of 211 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: young in the nineteen forties and the influence of the Reagans, 212 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 3: how could they not know about the Colonel Kelly suspects 213 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 3: the family may have rejected Claire Raoul outright, given the 214 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 3: families deep and some might say pedigreed roots going right 215 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: back to the foundations of the town. Claire, as they say, 216 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: did not come from the right side of the tracks. 217 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: Here's Kelly with her dad again. 218 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 8: I'm down? 219 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 4: And what about the comparisons? Like the three Reagan boys 220 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 4: all married Carwell girls. Now back in the thirties, the 221 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 4: call Walls were quite a well to do family, you 222 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: could call them land a gentry. 223 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: They were both pioneering families. 224 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 4: I would imagine that those three weddings would have been 225 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 4: quite celebrated and compared to the Carbel girls, Claire would 226 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 4: have been fair to say if she felt intimidated when 227 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 4: she's coming into a family of that dynamics, do you reckon? 228 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 8: Certainly would just from my experience, once again, I didn't 229 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 8: know her or in their girls, but I don't think 230 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 8: that she ever was in the family setting. 231 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: So never come for Christmas, never family gathering, never. 232 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 8: Ever, never ever, I would say she was never asked, 233 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 8: never even spoken of, because I know they well as 234 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 8: I saying it was fifteen or something, and I never 235 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 8: even knew he existed? Was John Reagan? 236 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: Claire and Alf settled in young not long after their marriage, 237 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 3: or did they. Some family members say now that Alf 238 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: never stopped living with his mother, even when Claire was 239 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: residing in town as his new wife. Still, there were 240 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: very early signs that this was a fatally mismatched couple. 241 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 3: Alf disappeared for weeks at a time on the Shearing circuit. 242 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 3: Claire took a job as a barmaid at the Australian 243 00:17:54,520 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 3: Hotel in the main drag Burrower Street. This pub, formerly 244 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 3: the Shamrock Inn back in the gold rush days, would 245 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: inevitably become the sinking ship of the Reagan marriage. When 246 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 3: he was in town, Alf had his favorite stool there 247 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 3: while the Colonel captained the bar. Today, the Australian Hotel 248 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 3: is a vibrant family pub with fantastic food at very 249 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 3: reasonable prices. We paid a visit and had lunch, and 250 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 3: quickly learned from the new owners that it, like almost 251 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 3: everyone and everything in this story, had its ghosts, Claire 252 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: and Alf included. 253 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 10: My grandmother used to work here, and my mom did 254 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 10: so work upstairs, jens and cleaning, and I. 255 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: Used to drink here all the time. But it needs 256 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 3: to be a brothel in the early early days. 257 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 7: This is what I've. 258 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 10: Been informed of late eighteen hundred. 259 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 8: Where did your mum wear? 260 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: Oh my god, your grandmother would have worked here, Claire raw, Claire. 261 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: And you're over lunch In the noisy pub, we discussed 262 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: Claire and ELF's doomed marriage. So why does a couple 263 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 3: not get married in the town as they have to 264 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: go somewhere else to actually get married? In the pub, 265 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: like everywhere else in Young it felt as if you 266 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: could almost reach out and touch the past. It didn't 267 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 3: require a great stretch of an intimation to see Claire 268 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: here behind the bar pulling beers, and her still the husband, Alf, 269 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: drinking away his wages across the counter. They must have 270 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: glanced at each other over the damp via mets and 271 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 3: wondered about their future together. Perhaps they sensed it was 272 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 3: finished before it had even started. Then Claire fell pregnant. 273 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 9: A short time ago, an American aeroplane dropped one bomb 274 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 9: on Hiroshima. It is an atomic bomb. 275 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 11: The Japanese have accepted our terms fully. This, ladies and gentlemen, 276 00:20:48,680 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 11: is the end of the Second Worldwide. 277 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: It's August nineteen forty five, and the world rejoiced when 278 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: Japan formally surrendered on September two. Even in rural Young 279 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: in western New South Wales, with its statues in the 280 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 3: main street commemorating the sacrifice of local men in the 281 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 3: First World War, they would have been celebrated too, blowing 282 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: the froth off a cold one at the Australian Hotel. 283 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 3: Less than two weeks later, on September thirteenth, nineteen forty five, 284 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: Stuart John Reagan, the only child of Claien Alf, was 285 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: born in Young. It should have been a happy moment 286 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 3: for the extended Reagan family in the immediate wake of 287 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 3: peace across the world, but it appears nobody in the 288 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: wider Reagan clan even you of the birth, just as 289 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: very few were aware that Alf was even married. Alf 290 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 3: built a ramshackle house for his new family by the 291 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 3: Creek in smythe Lane a couple of minutes walked from 292 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: his mother's house near the corner of Thornhill and Spring Streets. 293 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 3: But there's a curious dispute in the family as to 294 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: whether alf Ever domiciled with his wife and son. I 295 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: talked to Kelly about it and asked the question where 296 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: was alf living when baby Johnny came home from the hospital. 297 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: Alf would have been with his mother. I don't think 298 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: he ever moved out, to be honest. 299 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 3: So he might have still been living with his mother 300 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 3: while five hundred meters away his wife and son are 301 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: living by the creek. 302 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 2: Correct. 303 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: She does mention in and there's documents that he dropped 304 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: in and out when he felt like it. 305 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 4: Maybe at the very beginning he might have lived with 306 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 4: them when he built that, But I think he built 307 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 4: the house for Aaron john Yeah. Dad certainly doesn't remember 308 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 4: Uncle ELpH being anywhere but with his mother or away hearing. 309 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 3: So this was little Johnny Reagan's strangulated world in a 310 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 3: small country town, his father coming and going, and his 311 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: mother the colonel ruling the roost. Reagan attended the local 312 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 3: Catholic school, Saint Joseph's, not far from his home, by 313 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 3: the Creek from kindergarten to grade three. He then went 314 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: on to the Christian Brothers College. We went and saw 315 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 3: Father Alan Crowe at Reagan's old college. You could almost 316 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: see the site of the former Reagan home from a 317 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 3: corner of the school playground. Father Crow had gone to 318 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 3: the school himself. He explained how Reagan would have started 319 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 3: kindergarten in nineteen fifty at Saint Joseph's and by year 320 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 3: three transitioned to the nearby Christian Brothers College. In preparation 321 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: for our visit, Father Crow had retrieved some old yearbooks 322 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 3: from the library we set up in his office. 323 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 4: So he would have started king year nine fifty, wouldn't it. 324 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 7: Yes, you were behind John. 325 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 12: Worne fifty four, more than the year he started at 326 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 12: Christian Brothers. 327 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 3: Reagan appeared sporadically in the yearbooks, a serious young boy. 328 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: In his black and white class photographs, he did not 329 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: smile in a single picture. Kelly tracked down several of 330 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: Reagan's old schoolmates. Some remembered him fondly, others had a 331 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: harsher assessment. However, all of them, bar none, recalled with horror, 332 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 3: even after seventy years. 333 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 8: The Colonel. 334 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: One of those schoolmates was Brian English. 335 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 10: John was a slightly lonely, sort of angry kid, not 336 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 10: many friends, and kids were a bit frightened of it. 337 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 10: I'm not saying he was a bully, but you wouldn't 338 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 10: cross it, and the teachers in the school were afraid 339 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 10: of Claire. I remember on one occasion we used to 340 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 10: play cricket in the schoolyard and kids would take its 341 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 10: turn to be in the bat and John was not playing. 342 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 10: He was just standing in the yard and Suddody belted 343 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 10: a cricket ball right up in the air, came down 344 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 10: and hit John right on the top of his head, 345 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 10: knocked him out there. He went down like a kind 346 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 10: of bricks. I was standing about two meters away from 347 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 10: when that happened, and one of the Christian brothers came 348 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 10: over and another kid and I sat John up and 349 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 10: we said, you know, his mother lives over there, and 350 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 10: the teacher said, I'm not going there. Other kid and 351 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 10: I took John hame to Claire and explained what had happened. 352 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 10: And John was a bit adult, but we took him home. 353 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 10: So the teachers didn't want to get involved with Claire. 354 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 3: The colonel still haunts Brian. 355 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 10: On another occasion, there's a bit of a gully that 356 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 10: runs down behind the old house into the tree, and 357 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 10: my brother, sister and I were there with him, playing 358 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 10: around there, and Claire apparently had been calling for John 359 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 10: to come out, and I can honestly say not one 360 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 10: of us heard it, but we literally did not hear Claire. 361 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 10: But the next thing, she came down the lane with 362 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 10: a stockwhip and she felted him home. She drove him 363 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 10: home like he was being so he had a tough mother, 364 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 10: a tough tough lady. 365 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 3: David Pattinson, who sadly passed away shortly after speaking to 366 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: us during the making of this podcast, was in the 367 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: same primary school class as Reagan. He too heard about 368 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: the monster that was the Colonel. 369 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 10: I remember. 370 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 8: He god. 371 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 12: He actually had a fight at school with Paul Gibson, 372 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 12: who all gave him my bloody nose. Then another took 373 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 12: him down to his mother and she's worked with the 374 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 12: behind the bar and she came out with it with 375 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 12: the cloth of the bar wiped his face, said you 376 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 12: get out of him and get back there and give 377 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 12: him a bleating nose. 378 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: Another of Reagan's school friends, Michael Rule used to have 379 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 3: a sleepover at Reagan's place. When Johnny and the Colonel 380 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: stated her parents farm just outside town. During Alf's drinking belts, 381 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: Michael said if he and Johnny did anything wrong, Claire's father, 382 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: Johnny's grandfather would chase them with a stock whip. Real 383 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: confirmed that the Colonel also whipped Johnny. That violence, it seemed, 384 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: had rubbed off on Stuart John Reagan, who told his 385 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: friend about his inner tiger. Michael explained it to Kelly. 386 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 10: Jarley, I don't think you played. 387 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 13: He used to take people because he. 388 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:44,239 Speaker 8: Is to fly. 389 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 14: He liked people, and then again you don't know what 390 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 14: city want and they have become a bisiness. 391 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 8: He wasn't that good dad either. 392 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 14: Short pees I said to me one day, I said, 393 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 14: you had the shortest fo years to go a buy her, 394 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 14: he said, he said, I've learned to control. When you control, 395 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 14: Beena Tiger, you have got a lot of control. 396 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 3: Brian had pitiful memories of Reagan's father Alf. 397 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 10: The other thing you had with John was that Alf 398 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 10: was apparently a good worker when he wasn't drinking. But 399 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 10: Alf was a fiendish drinker. Other kids than I used 400 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 10: to see Alf in the city in the gutter outside 401 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 10: the Australia drinking lass flagans stuff. It wasn't there, it 402 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 10: was there was a fortified wine and I saw in 403 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 10: the one city in his own Europe in the gutter. 404 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: Another schoolmate, John Woods, or Woodsy as he was known 405 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 3: as a kid, had fond memories of Reagan. 406 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 13: Were any Mass once and there were some kids talking 407 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 13: in Mass and I sort of just turned around and said, hey, hey, 408 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 13: stop it, we're in Mass and they jumped on my 409 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 13: black told me I'm not the bloody bullied them or 410 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 13: something like that. 411 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 8: Norlady was just so quiet. 412 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 14: Anyway. 413 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 13: Johnny came across and grab the bloke and I said, 414 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 13: you're him alone. He's you know, he's not caught in 415 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 13: any trouble, and he's just at different times. 416 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 14: He was always not protective of me, but courteous, plot 417 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 14: whatever whatever. 418 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 13: Word you want to use. 419 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 6: He was just always just a nice bloke. 420 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 3: Kelly asked Woodsy about the allegations of animal cruelty against Reagan, 421 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 3: pitchforking possums to death, killing kittens and dogs. 422 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 4: Now, when you were growing up with John, like at 423 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 4: the school, did you ever see him hurt any animals? 424 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: Animals that's one. 425 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: Of the things they've portrayed him as that he as 426 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 4: a child he was a psychopath and he used to 427 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 4: kill animals, which I can find no proof of. He 428 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 4: put a stake through a possum, is the allegation. It's 429 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 4: not out of up and I would have murdered. 430 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 8: Look awesome. 431 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 12: I think it'd be more quite the opposite. 432 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 3: Of local Kevy. Powdery also had no recollection of Reagan 433 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 3: and his so called psychopathic streak. He debunked the often 434 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 3: repeated myth that Reagan, as a boy, had run a 435 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: pitchfork through a possum. Kevy it was a class below 436 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: Reagan at school and set up an ingenious lunchtime scam. 437 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: When the marble craze hit Saint Joseph's in the nineteen fifties. 438 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 15: We were getting all the marbles in the school by 439 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 15: having a game with all the holes in the board, 440 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 15: and people used to fire their hole their marbles at it, 441 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 15: and if they got it through the hole, you got 442 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 15: paid the amount of marbles and whatever the number was 443 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 15: on them and at the mess and it didn't go through, 444 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 15: I got the marble, and after about two days I'd 445 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 15: taken every marble out of the school and in the 446 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 15: finish when I was taking the last of them and 447 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 15: no one had any marbles, And then the bigger kids 448 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 15: in the classes above came in and was going to 449 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 15: take the board and the marbles off me. Then Johnny 450 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 15: came along and told them to piss off, that there 451 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 15: was nothing wrong with what I was doing. You know, 452 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 15: if you don't want to play, don't play. They all left. 453 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 15: No one was going to come and stand it to 454 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 15: me because Johnny said piss off. He was bigger than 455 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 15: all the other kids. He just stood up for the 456 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 15: littler kids. 457 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: So what does all this say about Reagan as a child, 458 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 3: That he disliked bullies and defended smaller children, that nobody 459 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: could recall his cruelty towards animals. As per the myth 460 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 3: about him that has continued to this day, the Colonel 461 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: we heard struck fear into adults and children alike, and 462 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 3: alf was a booze sodden ghost. As for Johnny Reagan, 463 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 3: his upbringing had been unstable from the outset. He was 464 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: subjected to cruelty at the hand of his own mother. 465 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 3: She was physically aggressive towards him and encouraged him to 466 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 3: be aggressive towards others. Her answer to a problem, it appeared, 467 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: was violence. One serious byproduct of all this, as Michael 468 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: Rule witnessed and others would experience firsthand through Reagan's brief 469 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 3: but explosive career as an underworld figure, was his notorious 470 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 3: short fuse, deadly force could seemingly come out of nowhere. 471 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: What's heartbreaking about this story is that on many occasions 472 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: a young Reagan actually snuck out of the family home 473 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: and young and went around to his paternal grandmother's house, 474 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: that's Alf's mum. He would see his father there and 475 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 3: be a part of a family, his family when his 476 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 3: mother was working behind the bar at the Australian Hotel. 477 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: Kelly and I discussed this. So the picture we're getting here, 478 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 3: from when he was a little boy to even leading 479 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 3: up to his death in his late twenties is that 480 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 3: you have a child sneaking around trying to connect with 481 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 3: an actual family, but doing so and trying to conceal 482 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 3: that connection from his own mother. What is that saying 483 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: about the Colonel. 484 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 4: Well, it's not saying much about her, but it's also 485 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 4: not saying much about some of the Reagans either, that 486 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 4: they let that little boy stay with her when they 487 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 4: knew what she was like? 488 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 3: Do you think they would have known or are we 489 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 3: giving them the benefit of the doubt. 490 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 4: I think giving them the benefit of the doubt would 491 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 4: be a bit rich because they would have had to 492 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 4: have known. Pop and Uncle Jack were certainly pillars. They 493 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 4: were well known in the community. They would have been 494 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 4: around the pubs. They would have known what Claire was like. 495 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 4: Talk would have come back to them for sure. Like 496 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 4: It's only a small town. Population would have been around 497 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 4: two or three thousand, I'd imagine. 498 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 3: So how do you hide a sister in law and 499 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 3: a nephew in a town of that size. 500 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: I don't think you would have hidden. It was kind 501 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: of they knew, but they didn't know, do you know 502 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: what I mean? 503 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 4: Like wasn't talked about, or they probably didn't even know 504 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 4: that it was a secret and Dad was at a 505 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 4: different school. 506 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very weird. 507 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 3: But it's safe to say from the stories with her 508 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 3: thus far, that the common element at the heart of 509 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 3: this fractured family is Claire Reagan. Everyone's tiptoeing around the. 510 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 4: Colonel, absolutely tiptoeing or completely shutting her out. That marriage 511 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 4: never had a chance. 512 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: The true depth of misery that was going on behind 513 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 3: closed doors in Reagan's various childhood homes, and what we 514 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 3: would say now were factors that contributed to a future 515 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 3: life of violence would soon be made public. By the 516 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 3: time Reagan was in his teens, the profession awaiting him 517 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 3: was almost inevitable gangster. In April nineteen forty six, less 518 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 3: than two years after they were married, Claire Reagan took 519 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 3: out what was called a prohibition order against her husband 520 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 3: Alf in the New South Wales Supreme Court. We don't 521 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 3: know the precise contents of the order, but given his 522 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 3: problem with alcohol, it may have contained directions that he 523 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 3: not be permitted inside a licensed premises purchase alcohol, or 524 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 3: even that he stay away from his wife and nineteen 525 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 3: month old son. Alf's drinking by this time was out 526 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: of control. According to court documents, Claire said that whenever 527 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 3: he was in town, he would head to the pub 528 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 3: on Saturday morning and returned home at night already drunk 529 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 3: and with more alcohol supplies, including a bottle of rum 530 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 3: and four bottles of wine, which he would drink throughout 531 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 3: the night. If he ran out of supplies, he would 532 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 3: head into town for more. We have used a voice 533 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 3: actor to read some excerpts from actual documents in Claire 534 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 3: Reagan's divorce court case. She said of the prohibition order, 535 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 3: according to those court documents. 536 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 16: One of his brothers approached me and informed me that 537 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 16: he and the other brother had lodged an appeal and 538 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 16: pleaded to me to stand down from the appeal, which 539 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 16: I did. They said if he continued with the drinking bouts, 540 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 16: they would take out a prohibition order themselves against him, 541 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 16: to give him a chance. I did not turn up 542 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 16: to the appeal. 543 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 3: Nothing changed, so on February five, nineteen forty nine, she 544 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 3: petitioned for a divorce. They had been married for just 545 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 3: over four and a half years and little Johnny was 546 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: three and a half years old. The petition also asked 547 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 3: that she be given custody of the child and weekly 548 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 3: maintenance payments. During the hearing before Judge Byrne, the Colonel 549 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 3: painted a scathing picture of husband alf as a habitual 550 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: drunk who had been hospitalized several times for alcohol abuse. 551 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: She said he had lost jobs because of his drinking 552 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 3: and that he regularly suffered the horrors. 553 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 16: I was going to work one morning and he came 554 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 16: out and he asked me if he could see the 555 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 16: child he was standing out in the rain, and I 556 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 16: said yes, And he came in and he was scared 557 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 16: out of his wits. He said there were men chasing him. 558 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 16: I was a bit doubtful myself, and I did not 559 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 16: know what he was talking about. He said, chaps with 560 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 16: tortoise were chasing him. My father informed me he was 561 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 16: in the horrors. 562 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 3: Her legal counsel, Mister Clements, then asked about Alf's temperament 563 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 3: when he was drunk, when he was in these bouts. 564 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 8: What was his attitude towards you? Was he treatment kind? No? 565 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 16: It was not. If I said the wrong thing, I 566 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 16: was likely to have a blow come at me. Would 567 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 16: it be with a closed fist, yes, closed fist. 568 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: Did you receive them regularly. 569 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 16: Oh, yes, quite frequently. 570 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,399 Speaker 3: Claire was also asked about a specific visit by Alf 571 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 3: in October nineteen forty six. 572 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: What was his condition when he came to see you? 573 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 16: He was practically drunk the whole time I was there. 574 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 16: He came home and he was very drunk and he 575 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 16: hit me and as a result I had to bring 576 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 16: Constable Bagnol to my assistance. He hit me with his 577 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 16: fist on the face. 578 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: Did he do anything to the baby On that occasion. 579 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 16: He pulled the baby and me both out of bed. 580 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 16: He pulled the tick right off the bed. 581 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 3: Claire told the court that Alf had struck her or 582 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 3: attempted to pull out her hair more than twenty times 583 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 3: during their short marriage. For the bulk of it, Claire 584 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 3: and the baby lived with her parents on their farm 585 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 3: on the edge of young On Boxing Day nineteen forty eight, 586 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 3: there was another major drama. Claire told the court. 587 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 16: He came out on Sunday and had a bottle of 588 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 16: beer and insisted on me having a drink. But I 589 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 16: had never drink at all. I'm a non drinker. I 590 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 16: did not mind him having a bottle, seeing it was 591 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 16: Christmas time. With a result, I only thought he had 592 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 16: a beer, and then I went to a neighbor's place. 593 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 16: I was away about three quarters of an hour when 594 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 16: it came back. A bottle of OPI rum was nearly 595 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 16: empty on the table. 596 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 8: She said. 597 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 3: Alf was splayed across her bed, unable to speak. She 598 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 3: got him off the bed and out of the house. 599 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 3: Alf then roused, went to the back door and kicked 600 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 3: it in. Claire went on. 601 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 16: My father interfered then and said you'll have to pay 602 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 16: for that door. 603 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 8: Alf. 604 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 16: With a result, he pulled my father out of the 605 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 16: door and put the boot in his head. I stood 606 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 16: between them and he hit me again. My father had 607 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 16: to go to the hospital. Needless to say, I hit 608 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 16: my husband two on that particular occasion. 609 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: What did you hit him with with a bottle? 610 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 3: In the end, Judge Byrne decided unanimously in Claire Reagan's favor. 611 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 17: I accept the petitioner's evidence and all the other evidence 612 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 17: in this case. She appears to me to be a 613 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 17: particularly good type of woman, and I have no hesitation 614 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 17: at all in accepting her evidence. I find the three 615 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 17: issues in the affirmative. 616 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 3: The colonel's recollection of Alf in her evidence as some 617 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 3: wife bashing, hair pulling, door destroying maniac while under the influence, 618 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 3: didn't match the Reagan family's memory of him. He is 619 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 3: Kelly talking to her father, Lindsey, who was Alf's nephew. 620 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 4: Now, Dad, can you tell me what you remember about 621 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 4: Uncle Alf. 622 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 8: To anybody to say that Uncle Alf was violent, he 623 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 8: is absolutely a joke. I knew him very well. I 624 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 8: never ever saw him get upset, cranky, or even nasty 625 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 8: because Uncle Alf never had a violent bone in his body. 626 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 8: I used to see him on a very regular basis, 627 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 8: because he would come in the office when he was 628 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 8: in young and when he was saber, he would come 629 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 8: in and say. One day he came in, he said 630 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 8: to me something about I hadn't done the right thing, 631 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 8: or I'd done something wrong. He wasn't cranky, he wasn't nasty, 632 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 8: and he walked out, and quarter of an hour later 633 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 8: he came back in tears, apologizing to me that he 634 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 8: went cook on me. Now, that was the sort of 635 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 8: person he was. I don't think he ever swore at 636 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,479 Speaker 8: anybody in his life. I don't think he ever raised 637 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 8: his voice to anybody. I certainly never heard him do 638 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 8: it anyhow. 639 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 3: So what was true? There is ample evidence that Alf 640 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 3: was a hopeless alcoholic, also that he had an endearing 641 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 3: side to him, and this is the phrase often used 642 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 3: by family and friends when he was sober. But Claire 643 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 3: Reagan's court testimony about his alleged violence is excruciatingly emotive, detailed, 644 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 3: and on the written page, even after seventy five years, 645 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:46,280 Speaker 3: difficult to dismiss. This was not the end of the affair. 646 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 8: For years in the. 647 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 3: Town of Young As Johnny Reagan got hit on the 648 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 3: head by cricket balls at school and defended small children 649 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 3: from bullies and got horsewhipped in public by his mother. 650 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 3: His father Alf passed out in the town gutters, and 651 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 3: the Colonel pulled biers at the Australian. As Alf lived 652 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 3: with his parents and Claire lived with hers, their matrimonial 653 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,879 Speaker 3: war continued to play out. When Johnny was six years 654 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 3: old in nineteen fifty one, his father was sent to 655 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 3: a mental institution in Morrissett, south of Newcastle for twelve months. 656 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 3: The Colonel relentlessly pursued Alf for alimony payments. This went 657 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 3: on for several years. Very few people in town by 658 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,760 Speaker 3: this stage would not have heard of the ongoing saga 659 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,760 Speaker 3: that was Reagan versus Reagan. Then came a major turning 660 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 3: point in the late nineteen fifties. Alf, hopelessly behind on 661 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 3: his alimony payments, was sentenced to a short stint in 662 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 3: Long Bay Jail in Sydney, and Claire and Johnny would 663 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 3: disappear from Young. The Colonel went from her parents strawberry 664 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:17,879 Speaker 3: farm outside a country town to a narrow townhouse in 665 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 3: Liverpool Street, Darlinghurst, in the heart of Sydney's Red Light district, 666 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 3: and Johnny would serve time in one of New South 667 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 3: Wales's most fertile schools for future criminals, the Mount Penang 668 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 3: Home for Boys in Gosford on the New South Wales 669 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,720 Speaker 3: Central Coast. There he would meet boys who would become 670 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 3: in just a few short years the toughest gangsters and 671 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 3: most ruthless killers in the Sydney Underworld, men Reagan would 672 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 3: mix with and do business with on the outside, and 673 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 3: ad men who may have played a role in Reagan's 674 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 3: actual murder in distant nineteen seventy four. Families have their 675 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:19,240 Speaker 3: fair share of secrets, But when your clan has featured 676 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 3: not just one of Australia's most notorious crook's killers in 677 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 3: Stuart John Reagan, but a man whose murder has remained 678 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:35,359 Speaker 3: unsolved for fifty years, unexpected facts, hidden or forgotten can 679 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 3: rise to the surface over time. For the Reagans, one 680 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 3: story has never gone away. After Reagan's stretch at Mount Penang, 681 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 3: he would return to the Colonel in Liverpool Street, primed 682 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 3: and ready for a criminal career. History shows he quickly 683 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 3: went to work as a standover man in Darlinghurst and 684 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 3: King's Cross, a teenage pimp and protector known for his 685 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 3: explosive temper and extreme violence. He would soon come to 686 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 3: the attention of Sydney's underworld boss Frederick Paddles Anderson meet 687 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 3: his future de facto wife marg In a go go bar, 688 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,480 Speaker 3: and bash and bludgeon his way up the criminal ladder. 689 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 3: But exactly how did this boy straight out of a 690 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 3: reformatory school almost instantly find himself a fixture in Sydney's 691 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:51,800 Speaker 3: shadowy criminal world. Kelly remembers a shocking family anecdote about 692 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 3: the Colonel, a story that may explain, after half a century, 693 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 3: how this country kid Cherrytown transformed overnight into a budding gangster. 694 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,759 Speaker 18: So we've worked out with John it looks like he 695 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 18: left young after year five because we can't find a 696 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,399 Speaker 18: year six photo of him, so he's obviously gone to Sydney. Then, 697 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 18: it's just feels strange that if she's petitioning for prohibition 698 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 18: and divorce in nineteen forty six, it's just two years 699 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 18: after they've been married. Obviously they have stayed in town 700 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 18: for reasons unknown, and then they've gone to Sydney. It 701 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 18: just seems a bit strange like we know that during 702 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 18: her time in young she worked at the Australian Hotel, 703 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,959 Speaker 18: which to my mind was always just a local pub 704 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 18: in town. But we've been told by the current owners 705 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 18: of the Aussie Hotel now that grandmother worked back in 706 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 18: the day and that it was actually a brothel, which 707 00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 18: I had not known, but had tied in with the 708 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 18: things that the family had always talked about that when 709 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,279 Speaker 18: she'd gone to Sydney, she'd set up a brothel. When 710 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 18: John comes out of Nang the Boys Home, he's got 711 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 18: a ready made job there. 712 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 2: His mother's got a brock a running. 713 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 4: She's already got girls working and that's where he got 714 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 4: his start. 715 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 3: In the next episode of The Gangster's Ghost, the. 716 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,400 Speaker 19: One strange thing at Mount Ernanga like thel, when you 717 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 19: go in the front gate is a boomerang. I couldn't 718 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 19: work out why they had this boomerang over the entrance. 719 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 19: It was really quite simple and you come here, you're 720 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 19: going to come back. 721 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: The Gangster's Ghost is a production of The Australian. It's 722 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: written and presented by senior writer Matthew Condon and produced 723 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,840 Speaker 1: and edited by multimedia editor Leat samagru our executive producer 724 00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: is Me, Editorial director Claire Harvey. Special thanks to Laura i'mos, 725 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: Erica Rutledge, Kristin Amiot, Jasper Leek, Stephanie Coombs, Sean Callanan, 726 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,920 Speaker 1: Lachlan Clear, Ryan Osland, Amanda will Williams, Christine Kelleg, Taron Blackhurst, 727 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,719 Speaker 1: Magdalena Zajack, Giselle Boetti, Genevieve Brammel, Lauren Bruce, Sus Rolf 728 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: and Yachini Carlson. We can only do journalism like this 729 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: with the support of US subscribers, who hear episodes first 730 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,800 Speaker 1: and get full access to photos, video, news stories and features, 731 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 1: plus all Australia's best journalism twenty four to seven. Join 732 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,239 Speaker 1: us at Gangstersghost dot com dot au 733 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 12: Ca.