WEBVTT - Giving birth as a national duty 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:09.000 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Condoms 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.720 and other contraceptives are set to become more expensive in 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.160 China as the Communist Party tries to boost population growth. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.239 With the economy slowing, birth rates declining, and for population aging, 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:21.880 the government is now trying all kinds of ways to 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.239 make women have more babies, from taxing contraception to new 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:30.640 laws on marriages, to cash bonuses and propaganda campaigns. Reproduction 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.239 is now seen as a national security issue, and the 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.800 success or failure of the new policies will have far 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.879 reaching consequences for China's economic and military strength and for 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.240 countries like Australia who rely on China continuing to grow. 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.519 Today seeing an analysts at the Makata Institute for China Studies 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.800 Daria in Biombardo on the threat to women's autonomy in 0:00:50.920 --> 0:01:00.280 China's new phase of population control. It's Friday, December twelfth. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.920 Now. Despite government leaders stressing that things are looking up, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.560 Chinese economic growth has recently faltered. For a long term boost, 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:17.560 state and party leader Sijiping is relying on domestic consumption. However, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.240 there is a problem. China's population is aging. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.800 So Daria in China. Right now, we've got a population 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.399 who are getting older. At the same time the birth 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.800 rate is slowing down dramatically. So what does it mean 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.760 for China to have those two factors at play. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.240 Well, you know, the population is not only getting old, 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.280 but it's also shrinking. So China has been classified as 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.240 an aged society according to you know you and parameters, 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.840 which means that more than fourteen percent of the population 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.160 is now above the age of sixty five. And so 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.880 that means that eventually also the workforce will start shrinking, 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.200 and that's a problem for China's economic prospects. 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.520 A plummeting population rate could threatn economic growth. The current 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.040 situation is a major concern for the authority. 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.520 It's definitely a domestic economic concern, but it also you know, 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:18.960 impacts China's international ambitions as a global superpower. So it's 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.080 something that has reverberations across all sectors of society. 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.400 And I suppose tell me a bit more about what 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.320 it kind of looks like when those things happen, Like, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.480 what is the kind of demographic situation. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.880 Well, you obviously have a lot of people entering retirement 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.480 age and sort of requiring support from the state. Now 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.240 we don't hear about this very much, but in the 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.600 sort of local governments in China, the finances are actually 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.400 pretty tight. A lot of local governments are in debt, 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.600 so the situation is already quite die, especially when it 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.960 comes to pensions. The pension fund's risk running out very soon, 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.680 and then once the labor force starts shrinking, it means 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.600 that there will be less people paying tax. 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.520 Okay, can we take a step back and talk about 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.639 how China got here? Because I think a lot of 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:14.720 the time when we think about China and we think 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.480 about children, we obviously think about the one child policy, 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.200 which dates back to the eighties. For the next thirty years, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.280 at least, all couples may only have one single child each. 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.800 The Chinese have been very swift in implementing this policy 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.680 throughout China. So how has that affected the population and 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:35.600 what we're seeing today? 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.880 So the birth rate had already started shrinking before the 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.920 one to hold policy was sort of enforced. But then 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.160 for you know, more than thirty years, we had these 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:52.080 extremely corrosive measures that were imposed on families and especially women. 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.680 Financial finds and a lot of surveillance across society, but 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:03.320 also often forced abortions, forced serilizations, which was very traumatic 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.040 for women, and a lot of those women have very 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.480 fresh memories. And so now you've kind of experienced this 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.360 one eighty from the authorities not trying to push for 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.200 more birds. The restrictions have never gone away, it's just 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.200 that now the ideal family is one with two or 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:22.120 three children. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.040 Okay, So how has that affected the way that women 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.039 think about families and motherhood. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.839 Well, I think that it's not just the one child 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.800 policy that has influenced this, but the number of marriages 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.640 every year continues to deep like it's basically never been 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.320 this slow. We have a much much larger section of 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.040 people with higher education. You know, the vast majority of 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.720 young women these days are very highly educated. They're probably 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:56.120 located in urban centers, and so the standards of living 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:02.000 have changed. People have different expectations from their life now, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.200 and there is this sense that having a child will 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:11.120 severely impact your standard of living, especially for a young 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.120 urban couple, because having children in China's become so expensive. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.040 By some estimates, it's actually more expensive to raise a 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.719 child in China than it is in the US or 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.799 in Japan right now, and especially things like the cost 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:29.360 of education. So you know, it's so many factors that 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:37.520 play into this decision. Organizations like national family planning organizations 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.479 or the Women's Federation, they basically want to make it 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.240 cheaper for young people to get married, so they offer 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.080 the opportunity to just get married on mass and all 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:53.240 expenses covered, and they also receive a patriotic marriage badge 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.800 from the authorities. But you're probably only going to convince 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.880 people who wanted to get married in the first place, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.480 didn't have the money to do so. I don't think 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.760 that's convincing anyone who didn't want to get married in 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:06.560 the first place. 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.400 Coming up, the government's not just trying to encourage women 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:23.920 to have children, it's trying to coerce them. While this 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.880 is happening, while attitudes towards marriage and motherhood are changing, 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:32.919 particularly among young people in China, there is this coordinated 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.279 national push by the Chinese Communist Party to try and 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.400 reverse that. So tell me a bit more about what 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.240 that actually looks like what we're hearing from President she 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.520 and the campaigns that are underway. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.279 We will implement policies to stimulate the birth rate, and 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.919 we will lead a national strategy to find solutions to 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:53.480 our aging population. 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.760 So Sudinping is framing childbirths within the context of national rejuvenation, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.239 you know, and that the message is obviously that having 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.640 children is not just a personal choice, but you know, 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:10.840 it has to be a contribution to the country. It's 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:15.400 for the future security of the country. And so officials 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.200 are told or like directed to guide people first to 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:24.440 marry because childbirths outside of wetlock is still frowned upon, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.080 but also to have children at a proper age, so 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.800 called proper age. So you have this kind of sharing 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:36.080 of pseudo scientific theories around motherhood and how motherhood is 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.280 healthier for women, or that you know, at some point 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.040 is actually great if you could study and have children 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.720 at the same time, which is the complete opposite of 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:50.600 what authorities were saying up until ten years ago. Do 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:55.640 you see these campaign celebrating mothers and messages about family duties, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.640 especially for women. So that kind of narrative around women's 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:05.040 rights in general quality has turned back again to traditional 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:11.560 confusion values of women's primary role or as caregivers. There 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.680 is a small effort to get men to contribute a 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:19.840 bit more to household duties and then care duties it's 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.360 probably short sighted. It will take a long time for 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.120 that to change, especially when women are still the ones 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.400 who have to sacrifice their careers and that's something that 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.200 happens as soon as they have a child. 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.160 Okay, So there's this attempt to try and change the 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.520 way that people think about marriage, right, but there's also 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.080 there's some I guess more heavy handed approaches at play 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.360 as well. Out then new laws, new policies tell me 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:43.880 about those. 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.959 Yeah, So at the moment, there's this combination of support 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.240 and pressure on paper. The government is trying to expand 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:57.160 child care services, to offer subsidies. Actually this year, for 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.760 the first time, we had a national level cash subsidy introduced, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.640 and so the support is kind of being announced and 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.160 it's there in some places, but not everywhere. And so 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:14.680 at some point you need to pair this support with 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.480 more coercive measures, and you know, you start, for example, 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.800 having tighten access to abortion or contraception. There is a 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.560 push to decrease the number of abortions in China because 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:32.559 it's still the country with the highest number of abortions globally. 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.319 But then you know, they do things like taking contraceptives 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.880 of the tax exempt item lists, so it's likely that 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.800 next year the cost of condoms and things like that 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:46.080 is going to increase. 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:48.120 Yeah, I wanted to ask about that because some of 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.360 these measures do seem quite punitive and coercive. So how 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.520 are people responding to having the state intervene in this way? 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.040 I would say mostly with skepticism. It's obviously, especially among 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.600 young people and women, there is a sense that actually 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.120 the party is not interested in solving the basic structural 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.880 issues that they're facing, like high living costs or long 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.520 working hours, or these issues with gender equality, but simply 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:22.280 just trying to pressure them more. And this can easily backfire. 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.080 What a lot of women are saying is that they're 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.480 not convinced. They still don't want to get married, and 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.280 they still don't want to have children. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.440 And you said that this is really for the CECP 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.200 at least about the security of the country. So what 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.120 you know, what happens. I suppose if this attempt to 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.040 get people to have families, to get married, to have 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.280 more children, if that doesn't work, how concerned is the 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:48.280 CECP about that. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.280 I think the CCP and the leadership more broadly are 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:56.240 quite worried because they have seen this play out already. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.720 In other countries, and this trend of population and shrinking 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:05.040 is almost irreversible. I mean, once it starts happening, it's 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.840 really really hard to turn around. So, you know, China's 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.040 sort of development is funded on this sustained you know, 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:19.040 economic growth, and that risks being impacted by this demographic shift. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.000 So I think that the ambitions that Sidinping has for 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.400 China's a global superpower are looking more shaky from a 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.480 domestic perspective when looking at this issue in particular, and 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:32.120 what about. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.760 What it means for women in China more broadly. I 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.000 mean for it to be more difficult for you to 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.840 get contraception or get an abortion. I mean, these are 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.720 significant things that impact women's life. So how do you 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.360 think about the future for women when they're kind of 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:48.160 in this situation? 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.840 There are really worrying trends. One of the things that 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.480 I mentioned in the report is even a court case 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.800 that happened a year and a half ago, I believe, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.720 And in that court case, specifically, the judge rule that 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:09.080 a woman had infringed on her husband's reproductive rights because 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.200 she had an abortion without his consent. And you know, 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.319 the domestic violence rates in China are still very high, 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.480 and this is just quite concerning on so many levels, 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.760 like it could impact even women's education prospects and definitely 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.319 women's labor rights. I mean, even if the government can 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.560 promise that they will give more paternity leaves so that 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:37.439 fathers also can look after children, companies are not really 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.559 doing that right now, and there's not enough subsidies for 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:47.640 private companies to do that, and so it is worrying 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:49.880 what's happening in China. But I also see it as 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.200 a bit of a global trend, you know, where you 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.040 see this focus on women's rights and gender equality retreat, 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.480 there are similar narratives across Europe and the United States 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:12.199 of returning to traditional family values and especially restricting women's autonomy. 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.800 Well, Daria, thank you so much for your time, Thank 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:34.719 you so much. Also in the news, Anthony Alberenzi has 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.720 defended his government's use of expenses, saying the rules are 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.720 set at arm's length from government. The Prime Minister and 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.120 Communications Minister Anika Wells have been repeatedly asked about her 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.480 spending while the pair are out trying to promote the 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.280 new social media band for teenagers, which went into effect 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.120 on Wednesday. When he was asked if the rules should 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.080 be changed, Mister Abenezi said he's not. The Finance Minister 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.040 and property developers in Queensland are set to be able 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.040 to make political donates again as the state government introduces 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:03.480 new legislation to lift a ban. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:04.640 The practice was. 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.520 Outlawed in twenty eighteen by the former Queensland Labor government 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.800 after the Crime and Corruption Commission recommended that local councils 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.200 should not be able to receive money from developers, and 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.439 they expanded it to include state candidates. Debate on the 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.240 legislation will begin when Parliament resumes in the new year. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.480 I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.