1 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:08,370 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed business interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,460 --> 00:00:11,189 Sean Aylmer: We've talked a lot about office towers and the challenges 3 00:00:11,190 --> 00:00:13,949 Sean Aylmer: for commercial property investors when so many office buildings are 4 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:18,089 Sean Aylmer: vacant, but commercial property is much broader than just CBD 5 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:21,029 Sean Aylmer: workplaces, and this is where we start to look at 6 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:24,959 Sean Aylmer: alternative real estate. Think pubs, hotels, marinas, that type of 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,809 Sean Aylmer: thing. Remember, this is general information only and you should 8 00:00:27,809 --> 00:00:31,559 Sean Aylmer: always seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Julian Biggins 9 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:35,489 Sean Aylmer: is the Joint Chief Executive Officer at Global Alternative Asset 10 00:00:35,519 --> 00:00:38,820 Sean Aylmer: Manager, MA Financial Group. Julian, welcome to Fear & Greed. 11 00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:40,650 Julian Biggins: Thank you, Sean, and thank you for having me on 12 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:41,220 Julian Biggins: the podcast. 13 00:00:41,970 --> 00:00:44,519 Sean Aylmer: I don't really want to talk about office towers, but 14 00:00:44,519 --> 00:00:48,150 Sean Aylmer: before we talk about everything else, what's the view on 15 00:00:48,150 --> 00:00:50,549 Sean Aylmer: office towers at the moment? Is there any optimism out 16 00:00:50,549 --> 00:00:51,089 Sean Aylmer: there about them? 17 00:00:52,049 --> 00:00:54,479 Julian Biggins: I think office towers, they still have a very big 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,720 Julian Biggins: place in the commercial real estate market. I always look 19 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,150 Julian Biggins: at supply and demand, and the office tower is a 20 00:01:00,150 --> 00:01:03,989 Julian Biggins: core component of running any business. For many businesses, there 21 00:01:03,990 --> 00:01:06,300 Julian Biggins: is obviously a point of disruption here that we're going 22 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:09,779 Julian Biggins: through post COVID and how the office tower gets used, 23 00:01:10,289 --> 00:01:12,809 Julian Biggins: but I think over the long term it will still 24 00:01:12,810 --> 00:01:14,520 Julian Biggins: be a very important part of the market. It's just 25 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:15,839 Julian Biggins: going through that point of disruption. 26 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:20,010 Sean Aylmer: Okay. MA Financial, tell me where you invest. Just give 27 00:01:20,010 --> 00:01:22,410 Sean Aylmer: us... Before we get into what we want to talk 28 00:01:22,410 --> 00:01:23,910 Sean Aylmer: about, I want to hear about you first. 29 00:01:24,599 --> 00:01:28,949 Julian Biggins: We invest across the alternative asset spectrum, and I guess 30 00:01:28,949 --> 00:01:32,490 Julian Biggins: that the alternative asset spectrum's a very new terminology that 31 00:01:32,490 --> 00:01:35,280 Julian Biggins: people are focused on, but whether it's equity or debt, 32 00:01:35,670 --> 00:01:37,920 Julian Biggins: it's generally in the private market, so it's not in 33 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,990 Julian Biggins: a liquid strategy. We're looking to provide outsized returns when 34 00:01:42,990 --> 00:01:45,240 Julian Biggins: we look at the risk adjusted nature of those returns. 35 00:01:46,139 --> 00:01:47,699 Julian Biggins: Really looking at things that we can buy in the 36 00:01:47,699 --> 00:01:50,010 Julian Biggins: private market that we can do a lot of deep due 37 00:01:50,010 --> 00:01:53,880 Julian Biggins: diligence on and provide investors with certainty and some form 38 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,000 Julian Biggins: of upside, but they're generally in the liquid strategies. 39 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:00,029 Sean Aylmer: Okay. What sort of assets are we talking about, whether 40 00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:01,740 Sean Aylmer: you've bought into them or even if you've just looked 41 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:02,849 Sean Aylmer: at them and decided not to? 42 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:05,850 Julian Biggins: I think if we focus on the core real estate 43 00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:09,360 Julian Biggins: side, I've been around the space for 25 odd years and looked 44 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,260 Julian Biggins: at the listed and unlisted space. Our focus in investing 45 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:16,110 Julian Biggins: is across both core and what we'll call non- core 46 00:02:16,110 --> 00:02:19,258 Julian Biggins: real estate. We have about six billion dollars sitting across 47 00:02:19,258 --> 00:02:22,169 Julian Biggins: the real estate space. Probably about two billion of that 48 00:02:22,169 --> 00:02:24,870 Julian Biggins: sits in real estate credit and the rest sits across 49 00:02:24,870 --> 00:02:28,800 Julian Biggins: core real estate and alternative real estate. The one we'll 50 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,210 Julian Biggins: focus on, we bought a pub portfolio back in 2017. 51 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:38,520 Julian Biggins: There was about 36 odd pubs, your corner block style 52 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,520 Julian Biggins: pubs sitting very close to the train stations, very good 53 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,720 Julian Biggins: land banking. That was about a $600, $ 700 million investment for us, 54 00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:48,510 Julian Biggins: and that turned out very well over six or seven 55 00:02:48,510 --> 00:02:51,209 Julian Biggins: years, and we still own it today. More recently, we've 56 00:02:51,210 --> 00:02:55,230 Julian Biggins: bought the largest marina portfolio in the country called Dalbora 57 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,120 Julian Biggins: Marinas, and we can talk about that a bit later 58 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,190 Julian Biggins: if you'd like, and we've also recently bought a hotel 59 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:02,070 Julian Biggins: accommodation asset in Melbourne, and we also like that strategy. 60 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:05,220 Julian Biggins: One of the differences for us is more around the 61 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:07,620 Julian Biggins: operating nature of the asset. We both own the land 62 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:11,518 Julian Biggins: and we operate the asset, and that's an important component 63 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,130 Julian Biggins: for us in terms of extracting returns but also managing 64 00:03:14,130 --> 00:03:15,540 Julian Biggins: downside risk for investors. 65 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,730 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so let's talk about pubs. It's illiquid is something 66 00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:22,740 Sean Aylmer: that you highlighted at the beginning, and the thing about 67 00:03:22,740 --> 00:03:26,580 Sean Aylmer: what you do is if you're investing with MA Financial, 68 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:28,469 Sean Aylmer: at times it is actually hard to get your money 69 00:03:28,469 --> 00:03:30,419 Sean Aylmer: out, and that's the nature of the beast in a 70 00:03:30,419 --> 00:03:32,880 Sean Aylmer: sense. I think that's what you're saying. What's the pub 71 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,589 Sean Aylmer: market like at the moment? 72 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:39,090 Julian Biggins: Yeah. Just to clarify the liquidity point, so the funds 73 00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:41,550 Julian Biggins: do provide liquidity, it's more talking about the underlying asset 74 00:03:41,550 --> 00:03:43,200 Julian Biggins: that it's not traded on an open market. 75 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:44,040 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. 76 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,599 Julian Biggins: So it's not on the listed market. It's not like 77 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:47,610 Julian Biggins: a listed bond or a corporate boot. But the pub 78 00:03:47,610 --> 00:03:49,889 Julian Biggins: market, when you think about the dislocation that's come through 79 00:03:49,889 --> 00:03:53,159 Julian Biggins: the commercial real estate market since interest rates started increasing, 80 00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:57,060 Julian Biggins: many assets, the bid are spread between what someone wants 81 00:03:57,060 --> 00:03:58,500 Julian Biggins: to sell that asset for and what someone wants to 82 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:00,900 Julian Biggins: buy that asset for is too wide and they're just 83 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:04,290 Julian Biggins: not trading. Interestingly, in the pubs, there's a lot of 84 00:04:04,290 --> 00:04:05,759 Julian Biggins: publicans that have made a lot of money out of 85 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:08,069 Julian Biggins: pubs, and the way that they invest their cash flow 86 00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:10,110 Julian Biggins: that comes off those pubs is they buy more pubs. 87 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,250 Julian Biggins: We've actually had the benefit of we've sold around $ 200, $225 88 00:04:14,250 --> 00:04:18,630 Julian Biggins: million of pubs in the last 12, 18 months, and they've really 89 00:04:18,630 --> 00:04:21,570 Julian Biggins: been very close to the valuation and actually been a 90 00:04:21,570 --> 00:04:23,460 Julian Biggins: slight premium to the valuation that we held them in 91 00:04:23,460 --> 00:04:26,308 Julian Biggins: our books at as we came through post- COVID and 92 00:04:26,309 --> 00:04:29,849 Julian Biggins: interest rates rising. The pub market's a bit of anomaly 93 00:04:29,850 --> 00:04:34,410 Julian Biggins: in the commercial real estate sector. They're actually still quite 94 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:36,928 Julian Biggins: liquid assets if you talk about 20 to 50 million 95 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:41,940 Julian Biggins: pubs. That's worked out very well for us. One of 96 00:04:41,940 --> 00:04:44,790 Julian Biggins: the things here around I guess alternative real estate and 97 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:49,229 Julian Biggins: some of the benefits you get, because not everyone's looking at that space 98 00:04:49,230 --> 00:04:51,990 Julian Biggins: and the large institutions need to deploy so much capital 99 00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:56,339 Julian Biggins: into their strategies that you can often get premium returns 100 00:04:56,339 --> 00:04:59,880 Julian Biggins: out of looking slightly off the fairway. For example, back 101 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:04,289 Julian Biggins: in 2017 when we bought Red Cape Hotel Group, we 102 00:05:04,289 --> 00:05:07,860 Julian Biggins: bought essentially what is core real estate in terms of 103 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:11,279 Julian Biggins: the location, the quality of the underlying land, the nature 104 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,580 Julian Biggins: of the cash flow is very robust, and we're buying 105 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:20,190 Julian Biggins: on a 9.6% yield, which is probably 300, 400 points premium to what 106 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,349 Julian Biggins: people were paying for office buildings or shopping centers at 107 00:05:22,350 --> 00:05:26,400 Julian Biggins: the time. You're able to extract these better returns from 108 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:29,190 Julian Biggins: looking slightly off the fairway where the institutions aren't playing. 109 00:05:29,940 --> 00:05:31,469 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Julian, and we'll be back in a 110 00:05:31,470 --> 00:05:42,479 Sean Aylmer: minute. I'm speaking to Julian Biggins, joint CEO at Global 111 00:05:42,540 --> 00:05:48,600 Sean Aylmer: Alternative Asset Manager, MA Financial Group. What makes $ 20 to $50 million 112 00:05:49,140 --> 00:05:52,049 Sean Aylmer: pubs? I think what you're saying there is they're almost 113 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:55,410 Sean Aylmer: not big enough for some of these institutional investors. Where's 114 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:00,389 Sean Aylmer: the value in a pub? Is it poker machines still? 115 00:06:00,389 --> 00:06:05,670 Julian Biggins: No, they're more diversified than that. Call it entertainment between 116 00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:09,330 Julian Biggins: F and B, gaming, et cetera, and there's also the 117 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:11,460 Julian Biggins: real estate that sits under it. Lots of pubs have 118 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:14,969 Julian Biggins: very high quality real estate that have land value that 119 00:06:14,969 --> 00:06:18,450 Julian Biggins: appreciates as the population densifies around that pub and there's 120 00:06:18,450 --> 00:06:20,460 Julian Biggins: alternative use for that at some point in the future. 121 00:06:22,410 --> 00:06:25,170 Julian Biggins: The simple thing here, like with our marina strategy in 122 00:06:25,170 --> 00:06:28,440 Julian Biggins: buying the Dalboro Marinas, it was a very complicated transaction 123 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,770 Julian Biggins: with the vendor. We bought the marinas for about $ 220 124 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:35,519 Julian Biggins: million. Again, it's a bit small for the institutions when 125 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,988 Julian Biggins: they're managing tens or $ 100 billion of assets. We bought, 126 00:06:39,988 --> 00:06:42,960 Julian Biggins: and I say it's waterfront Sydney real estate because it is. 127 00:06:42,961 --> 00:06:42,962 Sean Aylmer: It literally is. 128 00:06:42,962 --> 00:06:42,963 Julian Biggins: It is. We bought that on an 8.5% yield. 129 00:06:42,963 --> 00:06:51,928 Sean Aylmer: Right. Which is a lot higher than your average property purchase. 130 00:06:51,928 --> 00:06:52,169 Julian Biggins: Correct. 131 00:06:52,170 --> 00:06:54,330 Sean Aylmer: If you bought Point Piper Real Estate, you might get 132 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:58,650 Sean Aylmer: two. It's a phenomenal asset class that can't be replicated 133 00:06:58,650 --> 00:07:00,750 Sean Aylmer: either. You can't get a DA to build a new 134 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:04,678 Sean Aylmer: marina. We love the cashflow that comes off that. Where 135 00:07:04,678 --> 00:07:05,520 Sean Aylmer: are these marinas? 136 00:07:06,389 --> 00:07:09,539 Julian Biggins: About 60% of the marinas sit around the Sydney Harbor, 137 00:07:09,540 --> 00:07:12,209 Julian Biggins: so we've got Rush Cutters Bay, which many people would 138 00:07:12,209 --> 00:07:14,880 Julian Biggins: be familiar with if you're in Sydney, we've got a 139 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,770 Julian Biggins: spid over at Mossman, we've got one up at Okuna 140 00:07:16,770 --> 00:07:23,130 Julian Biggins: Bay in Pitwater. But there's 13 of them around the country. For investors 141 00:07:23,130 --> 00:07:25,259 Julian Biggins: in our fund, they generate about a seven and a 142 00:07:25,259 --> 00:07:29,579 Julian Biggins: quarter percent yield, and that yield's growing. It's also very tax efficient. 143 00:07:31,410 --> 00:07:34,110 Julian Biggins: Our strategy there is to take it from is 300 odd million 144 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:37,470 Julian Biggins: dollars today in value. If we can take that to 145 00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:41,610 Julian Biggins: a $500, $ 600 million portfolio, then it becomes very interesting for 146 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:45,659 Julian Biggins: an institution. The institutions will pay a premium for getting 147 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:49,440 Julian Biggins: scale. One of the common strategies for people that have 148 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,610 Julian Biggins: a smaller entry point is that you can build portfolios 149 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:55,590 Julian Biggins: of scale and then sell them to the institutions who 150 00:07:55,590 --> 00:07:58,919 Julian Biggins: will pay a premium just because it scaled. It's quite 151 00:07:58,920 --> 00:07:59,670 Julian Biggins: a useful strategy. 152 00:08:01,230 --> 00:08:04,830 Sean Aylmer: With marinas, the income, I mean mooring fees, but I'm 153 00:08:04,830 --> 00:08:06,840 Sean Aylmer: not being very... I know nothing about this sector at 154 00:08:06,869 --> 00:08:08,490 Sean Aylmer: all. So mooring fees, but what else? 155 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:11,790 Julian Biggins: Roughly about half your revenue comes from the berthing fees. 156 00:08:11,790 --> 00:08:14,220 Julian Biggins: So someone puts their boat into a pen, into a 157 00:08:14,220 --> 00:08:16,679 Julian Biggins: berth, and they have to pay a monthly fee. If they 158 00:08:16,679 --> 00:08:18,480 Julian Biggins: don't pay their fee, you lock their boat up, so 159 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:23,279 Julian Biggins: it's quite safe. Boats are obviously quite a valuable asset, so 160 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:26,250 Julian Biggins: the mooring fees aren't a large proportion of the person's 161 00:08:26,250 --> 00:08:30,780 Julian Biggins: wealth so they're quite insensitive to escalating berthing fees. Then 162 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:32,969 Julian Biggins: you've got the retail component that sits next to the 163 00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:35,910 Julian Biggins: marina. You've also got slipways that maintain boats. There's lots 164 00:08:35,910 --> 00:08:39,569 Julian Biggins: of stuff that comes off the boating community as well. 165 00:08:40,860 --> 00:08:45,780 Julian Biggins: Just to give you an example, the growth, the earnings growth in this asset 166 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:48,960 Julian Biggins: on the pens alone or on the berthing fees alone 167 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,020 Julian Biggins: has been about 10% year- on- year, which is very 168 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:54,990 Julian Biggins: high. The other reason we like operating real estate is 169 00:08:54,990 --> 00:08:58,169 Julian Biggins: you have these levers. You have this underlying exposure if 170 00:08:58,170 --> 00:09:01,530 Julian Biggins: you've got the expertise to manage it to generate real 171 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:04,140 Julian Biggins: growth. I think if you look at the environment we're 172 00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:06,600 Julian Biggins: in with interest rates rising, I think they're higher for 173 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,199 Julian Biggins: longer. That's a given. But you're buying these assets at 174 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,030 Julian Biggins: 5 or 10 years. You're not buying them for a three- 175 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:15,449 Julian Biggins: month trade. If you've got the operational expertise to increase 176 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:20,370 Julian Biggins: the earnings, you can't rely on just increasing valuations from 177 00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:23,550 Julian Biggins: lower interest rates anymore. That was the last three decades. 178 00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:28,500 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. So we've talked pubs, we've talked marinas, and 179 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,030 Sean Aylmer: the third category again, remind me. 180 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,659 Julian Biggins: The third category is accommodation hotels. Lots of people will be 181 00:09:33,660 --> 00:09:40,140 Julian Biggins: familiar with the accommodation space. Disruption's also important to us. Airbnb's been 182 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:44,489 Julian Biggins: around for a long time. Leisure, people's desire to enjoy 183 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:46,949 Julian Biggins: life, I guess post- COVID is an important macro thread 184 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:50,759 Julian Biggins: for us, and buying these accommodation hotel assets, again, you 185 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:52,889 Julian Biggins: own the freehold land, so you have the benefit of 186 00:09:52,889 --> 00:09:55,020 Julian Biggins: the land, and if you can operate them and have 187 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:57,870 Julian Biggins: the expertise to operate them, you can manage the downside 188 00:09:57,870 --> 00:10:01,410 Julian Biggins: risks. We can generate an 8% return for investors, we're 189 00:10:01,410 --> 00:10:03,270 Julian Biggins: trying to generate over a 5 or a 7 year 190 00:10:03,270 --> 00:10:07,170 Julian Biggins: period of 14% total return, and you're really doing that 191 00:10:07,170 --> 00:10:10,559 Julian Biggins: through operating the assets and operating them well. One of 192 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,170 Julian Biggins: the things, I lived through the GFC, one of the 193 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:15,929 Julian Biggins: things that's very important to me is having that real 194 00:10:15,929 --> 00:10:18,780 Julian Biggins: depth of knowledge inside our business to operate the assets. 195 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:23,640 Julian Biggins: We've probably got call it 60, 70 people that operate our, 196 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:27,120 Julian Biggins: maybe more, actually maybe 70 or 80 people that operate our operating 197 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,789 Julian Biggins: real estate assets. That's the real heart and soul of 198 00:10:29,789 --> 00:10:31,230 Julian Biggins: generating returns for investors. 199 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,770 Sean Aylmer: And they're three to four star style accommodation? 200 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:36,838 Julian Biggins: The one that we bought down in Docklands is a 201 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,929 Julian Biggins: four, four and a half star asset. 90, 95% of 202 00:10:39,929 --> 00:10:42,300 Julian Biggins: its revenue comes from the rooms. So it's not a 203 00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:46,559 Julian Biggins: complicated asset. The really interesting thing about the hotel is 204 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,449 Julian Biggins: that we've bought it about 60% of replacement cost. So 205 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:53,429 Julian Biggins: this is an asset that's only four years old. It's 206 00:10:53,429 --> 00:10:57,478 Julian Biggins: essentially brand new, and you'd have to pay 40% more 207 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,250 Julian Biggins: to replace that asset today. 208 00:10:59,370 --> 00:10:59,850 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Right. 209 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,139 Julian Biggins: That gives us a fantastic I guess downside protection- 210 00:11:04,139 --> 00:11:04,140 Sean Aylmer: Collateral. 211 00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:08,490 Julian Biggins: ... in terms of returns, and it's brand new. It's 212 00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:11,520 Julian Biggins: not a 20 year old asset. We think there's really 213 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,509 Julian Biggins: unique opportunities to... This point in the cycle as we 214 00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:19,859 Julian Biggins: come through this interest rate disruption, it's actually a fantastic 215 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:22,019 Julian Biggins: time to invest into assets if you're getting them on 216 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:22,770 Julian Biggins: the right terms. 217 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,680 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. Julian, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 218 00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:27,120 Julian Biggins: Oh, great. Thank you, Sean. 219 00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:31,199 Sean Aylmer: That is Julian Biggins, joint CEO at Global Alternative Asset 220 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,530 Sean Aylmer: Manager, MA Financial Group. This is the Fear & Greed business 221 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:37,200 Sean Aylmer: interview. Remember, this is general information only, and you should 222 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,650 Sean Aylmer: always seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Join us 223 00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:42,900 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear & Greed, daily 224 00:11:42,900 --> 00:11:45,630 Sean Aylmer: business news for people who make their own decisions. I'm 225 00:11:45,630 --> 00:11:47,190 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.