1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February eleventh, twenty twenty six. Israeli President Isaac 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Herzog meets in Canberra today with Anthony Albanesi. That's after 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: Herzog accused the Labour government of not understanding Israel's right 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: to self defense and Albanesi got emotional while defending his 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: decision to invite Herzog, who's from the opposition Labor Party 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: in Israel, to Australia. In the background, the washup to 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: violent protests. That's all live right now at the Australian 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: dot Com dot Yu. China is accused of crushing Hong 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: Kong's independence after a harsh sentence was handed down to 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: publisher and democracy activist Jimmy Lai. Beijing blames lie for 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: years of increasingly violent dissent against the Chinese Communist Party. 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: Today we talked to The Australian's National Chief correspondent Headley Thomas, 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: a veteran newsman who's reported in and on Hong Kong 15 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: for years, about the road to this result. It sounds 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: almost unbearably stark. A seventy eight year old media publisher 17 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty years in prison for national security offenses, 18 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: the most severe punishment yet under the city's National Security law. 19 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: Security offense is accused of publishing seditious material and colluding 20 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: with foreign forces police. 21 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 2: Officers to read my Boes News twenty years in prison, 22 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 2: ending the high profile case, Jimmy Laie and six former 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: executives of his now closed newspaper Apple Daily with this 24 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 2: week jailed by a panel of judges in Hong Kong 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: in what's being widely interpreted as a politically motivated prosecution, 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: a death sentence for this old man, and a sign 27 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: of Beijing's crackdown on free speech on the island. There 28 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: has been international outcry after a Hong Kong court sentenced 29 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: the pro democracy media mogul and China critic Jimmy Lai 30 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: to twenty years in prison. 31 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: The steamy, rugged volcanic island of Hong Kong, now one 32 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: of the most exciting and glamorous cities on Earth, has 33 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: been fought over for centuries. Originally part of China, it 34 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: became a British colony in the eighteen forties, was occupied 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: by Japan in World War II, and spent most of 36 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: the twentieth century as the last remnant of the British Empire. 37 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, Britain handed Hong Kong back to China. 38 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: London and Beijing signed a deal that was supposed to 39 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: guarantee that Hong Kong, by then a thriving center of capitalism, 40 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: would for the next fifty years be allowed a measure 41 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: of independence from the Chinese mainland and its Communist Party government. 42 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: They called it one country, two systems. But ever since 43 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: ninety seven there's been building tension between the central government 44 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: and Hong Kong, demonstrations and growing signs that China's grip 45 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: was tightening. Throughout the twenty tens, the tension ratcheted up 46 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: until in twenty nineteen it exploded into violent protest. 47 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: A dangerous, almost daily struggle that sometimes ends like fishy Way, 48 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Why are if? 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: The Australian's National Chief correspondent, Hedley Thomas is best known 50 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: these days as one of the world's most revered investigative podcasters, 51 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: But early in his journalism career, Headley took the same 52 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: path as a lot of Australian journals, off for a 53 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: big adventure in the bright lights and vibrant media scene 54 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: of Hong Kong. Headley, What was Hong Kong's newspaper world 55 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: like in the nineties, Oh. 56 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: It was absolutely fantastically, It was exciting, It was fast paced. 57 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: Journalists were relatively well paid. The South john Morning Post 58 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: where I worked with my then girlfriend who became my wife, 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: Ruth Matthews, and it was the most profitable English language 60 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: newspaper in the world, and we had so much to cover. 61 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: The lead up to the handover of Hong Kong from 62 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: the British to China was of course uppermost in the 63 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 3: minds of many of the journalists there and all of 64 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 3: the expats and local Chinese. But there was so much 65 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: other news breaking, incredible murders, dank and casino heiss in Macau. 66 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: We had corruption on an industrial scale in some parts 67 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: of the government. These stories and so many more like them, 68 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 3: made Hong Kong such a wonderful place to be a reporter, 69 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 3: to work in journalism, to meet fascinating people and enjoy 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: one of the greatest cities in the world. 71 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: Did it feel when the handover was happening that was 72 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 1: the end of an era in Hong Kong? 73 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 3: Yes, it did, But there was also a great amount 74 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: of hopefulness that Hong Kong, with a high degree of autonomy, 75 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 3: would be able to continue to prosper, that free speech 76 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 3: and freedom of the press and the rule of law 77 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: would continue and to continue for some decades. Now. There 78 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 3: were always going to be constraints. China was in charge. 79 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 3: That meant that the Chinese Communist Party was going to 80 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: keep a very close eye on how events unfolded in 81 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: Hong Kong. For a number of years, Hong Kong continued 82 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: to outperform to prosper, and the media was functioning, I 83 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: would say, almost as vigorously as it had pre handover. 84 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: There were undoubtedly some punches pulled, some acts of self 85 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: censorship by some of the journalists for those journalists who, 86 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: unlike the expats who could leave Hong Kong with our 87 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: foreign passports, local journalists were really stuck in Hong Kong, 88 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 3: so they knew that for them there could be repercussions 89 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: if they went too far. But Hong Kong's media was 90 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: for years really robust. There was intense questioning of the 91 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: Hong Kong government for years after the handover, and that 92 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: was a really good sign. 93 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 4: The Australian's Headley Thomas is in Hong Kong and he 94 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: joins me now. 95 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, you went back to Hong Kong on 96 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: assignment with your wife, journalist Ruth Matthewson, to report on 97 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: protests that had turned shockingly violent. 98 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 4: Andrew, last night, the married quarters of the police, where 99 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 4: they lived with their wives and children, was attacked by 100 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 4: a petrol bomb wielding group of protesters. They've done this 101 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: before in the married quarters, so effectively attempting to murder police. 102 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: Today there are those protests blew up over an extradition law. 103 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Prosecutors wanted to return a man accused of murdering his 104 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: girlfriend to mainland China for trial. 105 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 4: The protesters are actually violently assaulting people who challenge them. 106 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 4: If you are not with them, then you are an 107 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 4: enemy and they will retaliate. 108 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: As you have seen at the time, Headley, you're reporting, 109 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: as it so often does, went against the grain of 110 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: a lot of other journalism about those protests at the time. 111 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: What did you see at those twenty nineteen protests. 112 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: There were acts of incredible violence and anarchi There were 113 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 3: hardline criminals who were leading those protest movements, and there 114 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: was a degree of nihilism which we hadn't seen in 115 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 3: Hong Kong protests before. One man splashed with lighter fluid 116 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 3: and set alight. Others violently bashed police, attacked with box cutters. 117 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: Some of the protesters were determined to try to seize 118 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: police weapons. One was shot while trying to grab one 119 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: officer's gun. There were so many acts like this and 120 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: the climate dangerous, and I think for too long Hong 121 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: Kong police tolerated what was unfolding. They stayed back, and 122 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: instead of trying to take charge, to take control and 123 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: deter the protesters, they just stood by. It was a 124 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: very weird time. The eyes of the world were on 125 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: Hong Kong, of course, because the international media journalists from 126 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 3: all around the world had to send it and they 127 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: were reporting on what, for many journalists probably looked like 128 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: some kind of rerun of the Tieneman Square protests and 129 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 3: subsequent massacre there So, the protesters were portrayed very misleadingly 130 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: as these peaceful young students and the like who just 131 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 3: wanted to see democracy in Hong Kong. From what we 132 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: could see, nothing could be further from the truth. Many 133 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 3: of the young protesters, no doubt had that in mind, 134 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: but there were these hardliners who appeared hell bet on, 135 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 3: wanting to constructure and violence. 136 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: Beijing's been tightening the screws ever since. In twenty twenty, 137 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: a law was introduced after those protests which criminalized a 138 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: lot of forms of dissent which had previously been allowed 139 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: or tolerated. Jimmy Lai, who was found guilty of colluding 140 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: with foreign forces that relates to conversations he was accused 141 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: of having with American figures, including the former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, 142 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: the former Vice President Mike Pence, and a national security advisor, 143 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: John Bolton. He was also convicted of sedition offenses related 144 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: to things that had been published in his newspaper, Apple Daily. 145 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: To what extent do you think the violence of those 146 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: twenty nine protests kind of precipitated that tougher or accelerated 147 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: crackdown by Beijing. 148 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: The Chinese have an expression, killed the chicken to scare 149 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 3: the monkeys. In Cantaday's It's sut Guy Gang how Jimmy Lai, 150 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: the internationally round publisher, Hong Kong billionaire and success story 151 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 3: he is the chicken in this Chinese expression, and prosecuting 152 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: him it meant that the Chinese would be able to 153 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: set a very powerful public example to the people of 154 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 3: Hong Kong that acts of what the Chinese government would 155 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: regard as sedition and subversion would not be tolerated. Jimmy 156 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 3: Lai and his Apple Daily had undoubtedly gone further than 157 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 3: any other Chinese media in the way that the Chinese 158 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: Communist Party and its leaders were depicted. He was an outlier. 159 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: His newspaper was the most popular in Hong Kong by 160 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 3: a very big margin, and Apple Daily was the most aggressive, 161 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: and with his high level political meetings in the United States. 162 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: With many of the stories that were published by Apple Daily, 163 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 3: he was perceived by Beijing as a Hong Konger actively 164 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: colluding with China's enemies for the overthrow of the national government. 165 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 3: Beijing believed that Apple Daily and Jimmy Lai and their 166 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 3: journalism were undermining his rule and were fueling and encouraging 167 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: these protests of twenty nineteen and trying to achieve insurrection. 168 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: The leadership in Beijing believed that he was being supported 169 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 3: by foreign forces, probably Taiwan and part of the United States. 170 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: The CIA was suspected too. Now I haven't seen any 171 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: evidence of that. Doesn't mean that it wasn't occurring. We 172 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: don't know whether the Chinese ever uncovered any evidence of it, 173 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: but that was certainly a belief that was rife at 174 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 3: the highest levels. 175 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: Coming up more of my conversation with Headley Thomas, Jimmy 176 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: Lai is a big name in Hong Kong. He was 177 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: born on the mainland, but fled to Hong Kong as 178 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: here just as the Communist Party took power, and rose 179 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: from a factory worker to a wealthy fashion entrepreneur. He 180 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: founded the label Giordano and became hugely successful. This is 181 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: lie In twenty twenty after his arrest, speaking to America's 182 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: ABC News, I. 183 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 5: Came here with one Dora, escaped from China when I 184 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 5: was twelve. The priest gave me every fit. My reward 185 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 5: is the feedback. It's my redemption. 186 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: You and I talk about journalism a lot. Headley, and 187 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: you really believe in free speech. You've won two gold 188 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: Walkley's four stories that have really taken it to government 189 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: or to prosecutors. What do you think about Jimmy Lai's 190 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: case just as a journalist. 191 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really tough unclear because the penalty that 192 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 3: has been inflicted upon Jimmy Lai is crushing. He's likely 193 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: to die behind bars. He was a very influential and popular, 194 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: much loved publisher who did great things through a lot 195 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 3: of the journalism that his publication has produced. But at 196 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: the same time, I can see how his visceral hatred 197 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 3: of China and of the Chinese Communist Party, and his 198 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 3: belief that Hong Kong could somehow function entirely separately from 199 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: China fed into journalism that indeed incited and encouraged very 200 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 3: violent protests. Would the twenty nineteen protests have been as 201 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: destructive and as violent if Jimmy Lai and Apple Daily 202 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 3: had not been encouraging and promoting the protests. That's a 203 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 3: question that the judges in his trial must have grappled with. 204 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: Now. 205 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 3: I don't know the answer for that, but I think 206 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 3: that it's a genuine question. I think it's one that 207 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: many journalists and certainly the overwhelming majority of media outlets 208 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 3: try not to deal with because we're used to free 209 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: speech and being able to publish very freely. But wouldn't 210 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: we be able to do that even in Australia if 211 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 3: in our publications we were inciting people to rise up 212 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 3: to potentially overthrow our own government in a violent way, 213 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: not through democracy, but through destruction and through public vandalism 214 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: and violence. 215 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: You spoke about journals who you knew back in the 216 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: late nineties who were already self censoring. How do you 217 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: think they will be feeling now that the one country, 218 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: two systems idea doesn't really seem to be working. 219 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 3: Hong Kong didn't have true democracy under British rule before 220 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. It enjoyed free speech, enjoyed free press 221 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 3: and the rule of law. But there is no doubt 222 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: that Hong Kong was onece vibrant and fearless. Free press 223 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 3: has gone. There's still press criticism of Hong Kong government 224 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: failures and policies, but the tone is markedly different now. 225 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: It's more muted. Journalists consciously and subconsciously self censoring, and 226 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: I think that the intensity of the questioning by journalists 227 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: of the Hong Kong government is a thing of the past. 228 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: The media has been emasculated. It is no longer fearless. 229 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: The National Security Law introduced in twenty twenty means people 230 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: are treading carefully. I think that outcome was always an inevitability, 231 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: how long it would take for that to occur after 232 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: the nineteen ninety seven handover, Well, we didn't know. As 233 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: it turned out, Hong Kong had a high degree of 234 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: autonomy and freedom for longer than some of the pessimists expected. 235 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: But then with the demonstrations came a crushing crackdown and 236 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: new laws with which Beijing signaled this is not going 237 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 3: to happen again. You are not going to trash this 238 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: incredible city, this financial center, and embarrass us on the 239 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: world stage with these extremes of public destruction and violence. 240 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: And so there's another really interesting question that arises from that. 241 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: Would there have been any need for a national security 242 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: law with all of the screw tightening that came with 243 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: that if it had not been for the incredibly destructive, 244 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 3: futile protests that damaged thousands of businesses, that destroyed Hong 245 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 3: Kong's economy for some time, ruined tourism mark, it contributed 246 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: to a multi year decline in property prices. Would any 247 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 3: of it have happened but for those protests, which achieved 248 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 3: absolutely nothing. It's a terrible shame, because Hong Kong may 249 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: have got another decade of relative freedoms as a result. 250 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: If it hadn't been for what happened in twenty nineteen, 251 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: and for true believers like Jimmy Laie, it's a personal tragedy. 252 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 3: Jimmy Laie could have left Hong Kong pretty much any 253 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 3: time until his arrest in twenty twenty. There were no 254 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 3: restrictions on his movements. He's a British citizen. He's a 255 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: very wealthy man. He owns properties around the world. He 256 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: could have gone. Perhaps he realized that there was a 257 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: high risk he would be arrested, charged and prosecuted, and 258 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 3: a risk he was prepared to take because he's so 259 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 3: believed in his cause. 260 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: Edley Thomas, thank you very much. Thank you. 261 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: Claire Hilly. 262 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: Thomas is The Australian's national Chief correspondent. You can find 263 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: his latest podcast, Sick to Death, which is an investigation 264 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: into a killer surgeon, right now at Sick todeathpodcast dot 265 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: com and wherever you're listening. Plus check out all our 266 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: reporting of the Rolling Hong Kong story anytime at The 267 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au.