1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,700 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:05,700 --> 00:00:09,719 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Australia's relationship with China has been tense for some 3 00:00:09,719 --> 00:00:13,079 Sean Aylmer: time. It's our major trading partner, and while demand for 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,769 Sean Aylmer: our iron ore continues to soar, China has slapped crippling 5 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:19,320 Sean Aylmer: tariffs on a range of other Australian exports from barley 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,829 Sean Aylmer: to wine. Then there's the political tension; that came after 7 00:00:22,829 --> 00:00:25,020 Sean Aylmer: Australia took a stand on issues including the origins of 8 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:29,099 Sean Aylmer: COVID-19, disputes over the South China Sea, human rights abuses 9 00:00:29,099 --> 00:00:32,670 Sean Aylmer: and foreign interference. The Chinese embassy here in Australia even 10 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:35,129 Sean Aylmer: went so far as to provide a list of grievances 11 00:00:35,279 --> 00:00:38,070 Sean Aylmer: to the media. All of this made China a very 12 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:40,740 Sean Aylmer: unsafe place for an Australian journalist to be living and 13 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:44,429 Sean Aylmer: working. Michael Smith was the China correspondent for the Australian Financial 14 00:00:44,429 --> 00:00:47,340 Sean Aylmer: Review. He was one of the last two Australian foreign 15 00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:50,399 Sean Aylmer: correspondents in China before a late night knock on the 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,399 Sean Aylmer: door led to his removal from the country. It's an 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,980 Sean Aylmer: incredible story and one that Michael has now turned into 18 00:00:55,980 --> 00:00:59,310 Sean Aylmer: a book, The Last Correspondent. Mike, welcome to Fear and Greed. 19 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:00,660 Michael Smith: Thanks very much, Sean. 20 00:01:01,050 --> 00:01:03,269 Sean Aylmer: Tell me about that night. I've read the book, so 21 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:05,460 Sean Aylmer: I know, but tell. Listen, what an incredible story. 22 00:01:05,910 --> 00:01:08,789 Michael Smith: Oh, look, it was a pretty terrifying moment, I have 23 00:01:08,789 --> 00:01:11,789 Michael Smith: to admit. I'd been told by the Australian government to 24 00:01:11,789 --> 00:01:14,789 Michael Smith: get out of China. We'd actually packed our bags, booked 25 00:01:14,790 --> 00:01:17,490 Michael Smith: a flight, and the next day went off to bed 26 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:19,950 Michael Smith: and I was fast asleep and there's sort of this banging 27 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:23,099 Michael Smith: at the door. I lived in this very old laneway house 28 00:01:23,099 --> 00:01:26,219 Michael Smith: in Shanghai, this big old wooden rickety house. And so 29 00:01:26,219 --> 00:01:29,128 Michael Smith: the noise is reverberating up to the bedroom, staggered down 30 00:01:29,129 --> 00:01:31,740 Michael Smith: in my boxer shorts and flung open the door. And there's 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,509 Michael Smith: sort of six uniformed police standing on my doorstep and 32 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,510 Michael Smith: they had a camera and a spotlight and they're flashing 33 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:40,110 Michael Smith: their badges. 34 00:01:40,110 --> 00:01:41,550 Sean Aylmer: So what time of the night was this? 35 00:01:41,849 --> 00:01:46,319 Michael Smith: It was 12: 30am, so half an hour after midnight. And 36 00:01:46,559 --> 00:01:48,750 Michael Smith: I think they did that on purpose to sort of 37 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:51,660 Michael Smith: try and intimidate and scare you. And look, frankly it 38 00:01:51,750 --> 00:01:55,980 Michael Smith: did work. They sort of came into my lounge room, 39 00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:58,080 Michael Smith: sat me down on the couch and sort of surrounded 40 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,629 Michael Smith: me. And they read me out a three- page document, 41 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:04,109 Michael Smith: which said I was a person of interest in a national security 42 00:02:04,109 --> 00:02:06,960 Michael Smith: investigation and that there was an exit ban on me, 43 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,650 Michael Smith: which meant I couldn't leave China. So this has never 44 00:02:10,650 --> 00:02:14,250 Michael Smith: happened to a foreign journalist before. It was absolutely terrifying. 45 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:17,219 Sean Aylmer: So in that moment where they're reading that three page 46 00:02:17,219 --> 00:02:21,000 Sean Aylmer: document to you, which... are you fluent in Chinese at all? 47 00:02:21,089 --> 00:02:23,219 Michael Smith: No, I can speak a little bit, but no, definitely. 48 00:02:23,219 --> 00:02:25,470 Michael Smith: But they have a translator. So there was an official 49 00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:29,400 Michael Smith: translator, a young woman standing there sort of relaying the 50 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,460 Michael Smith: whole thing in a very official tone. 51 00:02:33,330 --> 00:02:37,110 Sean Aylmer: So when you're sitting there in your pajamas, basically, what 52 00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:39,121 Sean Aylmer: did you think was going to happen to you? 53 00:02:39,121 --> 00:02:41,038 Michael Smith: The thing was, I didn't know what was going to happen. 54 00:02:41,038 --> 00:02:44,280 Michael Smith: I didn't quite understand what was going on. And as 55 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,029 Michael Smith: they read this statement out to me, the darkest thoughts 56 00:02:48,030 --> 00:02:50,520 Michael Smith: were flashing through my mind. I thought, this is it. 57 00:02:50,790 --> 00:02:53,160 Michael Smith: They're going to take me away after this. And an 58 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,910 Michael Smith: Australian Chinese journalist named Cheng Lei had been detained just 59 00:02:56,910 --> 00:03:00,209 Michael Smith: a few weeks earlier. So you knew it wasn't outside 60 00:03:00,209 --> 00:03:04,770 Michael Smith: the realm of possibility. So yeah, very scary moment sitting 61 00:03:04,770 --> 00:03:07,410 Michael Smith: there thinking, this is it. I'm going to be disappeared. 62 00:03:07,770 --> 00:03:08,760 Sean Aylmer: So what happened next? 63 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:12,929 Michael Smith: So they finished their spiel, read out this statement and 64 00:03:12,929 --> 00:03:15,239 Michael Smith: got me to sign it, and then they suddenly got 65 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,780 Michael Smith: up and walked out of the house. So at that moment, 66 00:03:19,049 --> 00:03:23,490 Michael Smith: I sort of relaxed slightly. My partner speaks Mandarin, and 67 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:26,760 Michael Smith: we both actually went outside and ran after them and 68 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:29,849 Michael Smith: started asking them, " Look, what's going on? We want a 69 00:03:29,849 --> 00:03:30,600 Michael Smith: copy of the statement." 70 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,939 Sean Aylmer: Hold on, hold on, hold on. So you ran after this, so these guys had knocked 71 00:03:32,940 --> 00:03:35,489 Sean Aylmer: on your door at 12: 30, come in, read the riot 72 00:03:35,490 --> 00:03:38,880 Sean Aylmer: act, you're thinking, " Goodbye, Michael Smith," and then you chase them? 73 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:41,130 Michael Smith: Kind of. Yeah, we sort of followed them out and 74 00:03:41,130 --> 00:03:44,130 Michael Smith: very politely asked for a copy of the statement, 'cause 75 00:03:44,130 --> 00:03:48,540 Michael Smith: I didn't quite understand what had gone on. My partner's 76 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:51,630 Michael Smith: a bit more bolshy than I am and speaks Mandarin. 77 00:03:51,630 --> 00:03:54,150 Michael Smith: So started asking a few questions. They wouldn't tell us 78 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:57,390 Michael Smith: anything, they just shooed us off. So went back inside, 79 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,200 Michael Smith: I rang Bill Birtles, the ABC correspondent in Beijing who 80 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,349 Michael Smith: was in a similar situation to me, only to discover 81 00:04:04,349 --> 00:04:07,199 Michael Smith: he'd had the exact same visit at the same time 82 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,929 Michael Smith: up in Beijing where he was. So we knew it 83 00:04:09,929 --> 00:04:14,280 Michael Smith: was a coordinated, very political campaign, to target the only 84 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,510 Michael Smith: two journalists working for Australian media outlets left in the country. 85 00:04:19,020 --> 00:04:22,110 Sean Aylmer: And of course, a bunch of journalists, particularly from America, 86 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:25,830 Sean Aylmer: had been kicked out before you guys. So what happened 87 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:26,640 Sean Aylmer: after that? 88 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:29,639 Michael Smith: Yeah, so quite a lot of American journalists had sort 89 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:32,970 Michael Smith: of been expelled from China, had their visas revoked. But 90 00:04:33,330 --> 00:04:36,630 Michael Smith: I wasn't overly worried until I got that visit because 91 00:04:36,930 --> 00:04:38,760 Michael Smith: I thought the worst thing that could happen to me 92 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,750 Michael Smith: was that I would be deported from China. But obviously 93 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:47,099 Michael Smith: I was wrong. So the next morning things really accelerated. 94 00:04:47,339 --> 00:04:50,820 Michael Smith: Obviously, called the Australian Embassy that night and went into 95 00:04:50,820 --> 00:04:53,700 Michael Smith: the consulate in Shanghai early the next morning. So the 96 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:56,760 Michael Smith: Australian consulate's in this sort of high rise building, they 97 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,849 Michael Smith: just process visa applications there. And we had a fairly 98 00:05:00,150 --> 00:05:04,799 Michael Smith: high level meeting there with local diplomats and officials back 99 00:05:04,799 --> 00:05:08,549 Michael Smith: in Australia, and they made this very serious decision to 100 00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:11,580 Michael Smith: put us into consular protection. And this doesn't happen very 101 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:15,238 Michael Smith: often, particularly with journalists. So I was bundled into a 102 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,719 Michael Smith: van, taken back to my house, they grabbed my suitcase 103 00:05:18,719 --> 00:05:21,299 Michael Smith: and my partner, and then we drove to the Consul 104 00:05:21,299 --> 00:05:25,589 Michael Smith: General's house in Shanghai in the former French concession. So 105 00:05:25,589 --> 00:05:28,740 Michael Smith: a big house with a big secure gate around it. 106 00:05:29,010 --> 00:05:31,349 Michael Smith: And that's where I was to stay for the next 107 00:05:31,350 --> 00:05:34,020 Michael Smith: four days, sort of Julian Assange style. 108 00:05:34,230 --> 00:05:37,410 Sean Aylmer: Obviously, the Australian government took it extremely seriously if they're 109 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:38,910 Sean Aylmer: going to that sort of drastic action? 110 00:05:39,299 --> 00:05:41,579 Michael Smith: That's right. I mean, we were a bit shocked at 111 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:44,550 Michael Smith: this decision. I mean, this is a really serious decision 112 00:05:44,550 --> 00:05:48,120 Michael Smith: to make. I think it probably went to the Prime Minister's 113 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,409 Michael Smith: office. And I've spoken to people since and they said 114 00:05:52,410 --> 00:05:56,189 Michael Smith: this has rarely happened to Australian citizens in China before. 115 00:05:56,190 --> 00:06:00,390 Michael Smith: So I think the Australian government was very concerned about our safety, particularly 116 00:06:00,420 --> 00:06:03,300 Michael Smith: given there were Cheng Lei, this other journalist was detained, 117 00:06:03,540 --> 00:06:07,320 Michael Smith: and the two Canadians had been detained in China 18 118 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,960 Michael Smith: months earlier. And I mean, I remember asking at the 119 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,529 Michael Smith: time, "Are we going too far here? Are we going to 120 00:06:13,529 --> 00:06:17,129 Michael Smith: anger the local authorities?" And they said to me, " Well, the 121 00:06:17,129 --> 00:06:19,500 Michael Smith: downside risk is so great. Do you want to risk 122 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:24,210 Michael Smith: detention? And the old precedents of dealing with China are 123 00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:27,990 Michael Smith: now out the window." So I think that they perhaps 124 00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:30,510 Michael Smith: made this sort of wise decision to go down that path. 125 00:06:30,870 --> 00:06:32,340 Sean Aylmer: And how did you get out in the end? 126 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:35,068 Michael Smith: So we're in there for four days, and during this 127 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:37,890 Michael Smith: time there was some very high level negotiations going on 128 00:06:38,130 --> 00:06:42,029 Michael Smith: between the Australian government and China's Ministry of State Security, 129 00:06:42,029 --> 00:06:46,470 Michael Smith: which is its very powerful sort of security agency. And 130 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:49,589 Michael Smith: we were very nervous. We didn't know if we were 131 00:06:49,589 --> 00:06:51,839 Michael Smith: going to get out or not. And I guess, you've 132 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,150 Michael Smith: got to give the Australian government some credit, at least 133 00:06:54,150 --> 00:06:57,540 Michael Smith: there were enough diplomatic channels open at that time to 134 00:06:57,540 --> 00:07:01,560 Michael Smith: actually do this deal. So in the end, China agreed 135 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,270 Michael Smith: that we could leave the country, but we had to 136 00:07:03,420 --> 00:07:07,020 Michael Smith: submit to an interview with the Ministry of State Security 137 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:11,069 Michael Smith: in relation to this national security case that they thought 138 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,640 Michael Smith: we had some information we could share. And that case 139 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,090 Michael Smith: was, of course, the tension of this journalist Cheng Lei. 140 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:20,880 Michael Smith: But the whole thing was a bit farcical. I didn't 141 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,029 Michael Smith: know Cheng Lei, I'd met her once, I really had 142 00:07:24,179 --> 00:07:26,700 Michael Smith: sort of nothing to really offer them. But I think 143 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:29,759 Michael Smith: to save face, we had to go in and be 144 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,360 Michael Smith: part of their security investigation to sort of uphold its 145 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,670 Michael Smith: legitimacy before they'd let us leave the country. 146 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,920 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Michael. We'll be back in a moment. 147 00:07:42,599 --> 00:07:44,969 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Michael Smith, author of The 148 00:07:44,969 --> 00:07:47,580 Sean Aylmer: Last Correspondent. So in all the time you'd had in 149 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:49,350 Sean Aylmer: China before that, and it was about two and a 150 00:07:49,350 --> 00:07:50,311 Sean Aylmer: half years, is that right, Mike? 151 00:07:50,311 --> 00:07:53,100 Michael Smith: Yeah, yeah. A bit over two and a half. 152 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,020 Sean Aylmer: Had anything like that happened before? 153 00:07:55,380 --> 00:07:58,950 Michael Smith: Absolutely not. And I need to emphasize that I had 154 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:02,969 Michael Smith: a really terrific time in China. This fascinating country, great 155 00:08:02,969 --> 00:08:05,730 Michael Smith: place to work as a journalist 'cause the stories are 156 00:08:06,420 --> 00:08:09,930 Michael Smith: so interesting. And I think being a journalist to China, 157 00:08:10,050 --> 00:08:12,540 Michael Smith: there is sort of a low level form of harassment 158 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:15,570 Michael Smith: that goes on. You assume your phone's bugged, things like 159 00:08:15,570 --> 00:08:18,510 Michael Smith: that. But I always felt safe. I never felt unsafe. 160 00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:21,960 Michael Smith: And I always thought, as I said before, the worst 161 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,239 Michael Smith: thing that could happen to me is I'll be deported. 162 00:08:24,389 --> 00:08:26,940 Michael Smith: So I've traveled around the country, I've been followed at 163 00:08:26,940 --> 00:08:30,660 Michael Smith: times by undercover officials. I've been stuck in a police 164 00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:34,139 Michael Smith: station a few times and been questioned, 'cause we were 165 00:08:34,139 --> 00:08:37,349 Michael Smith: taking photos somewhere where we shouldn't have been. But nothing 166 00:08:37,349 --> 00:08:39,060 Michael Smith: like this had ever happened before. 167 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,299 Sean Aylmer: Is it a country that... I mean, we read so 168 00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:45,210 Sean Aylmer: much about China, which is sort of scary, Big Brother- 169 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,720 Sean Aylmer: esque. Is it like that in reality? Or is everyday 170 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,450 Sean Aylmer: life not that different to living in Melbourne or Sydney 171 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:51,930 Sean Aylmer: or Brisbane? 172 00:08:52,260 --> 00:08:53,880 Michael Smith: Yeah, I'm really glad you asked me that because I 173 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,389 Michael Smith: think a lot of the reporting we get in Australia 174 00:08:57,389 --> 00:09:01,320 Michael Smith: about China is very negative. So you sort of conjure 175 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,460 Michael Smith: up this image of this very sinister dark place. And 176 00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:08,790 Michael Smith: look, it really can be at times, but when you're 177 00:09:08,790 --> 00:09:11,699 Michael Smith: on the streets of Shanghai or Beijing, I mean they're 178 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:15,150 Michael Smith: massive commercial cities. There's a lot of money floating around, 179 00:09:15,150 --> 00:09:18,150 Michael Smith: everyone's going about their business and they're pretty much like 180 00:09:18,150 --> 00:09:20,520 Michael Smith: us. They're just trying to get their kids through school, 181 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,040 Michael Smith: trying to buy a house, trying to get a job. 182 00:09:23,370 --> 00:09:26,490 Michael Smith: And life in bustling Shanghai is actually quite a lot 183 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:28,469 Michael Smith: of fun. There's a lot going on and it's a 184 00:09:28,469 --> 00:09:33,389 Michael Smith: really diverse and interesting country. So day- to- day life 185 00:09:33,389 --> 00:09:37,679 Michael Smith: is actually pretty normal. People on the whole, they've got 186 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,590 Michael Smith: challenges, but they're fairly happy. They're a lot wealthier than 187 00:09:40,590 --> 00:09:45,389 Michael Smith: they were sort of 10 or 20 years ago. But I 188 00:09:45,389 --> 00:09:49,650 Michael Smith: think dig beneath the surface, there is some anxiety, there's 189 00:09:49,650 --> 00:09:52,468 Michael Smith: a lot of restrictions on free speech. Certainly, if you're 190 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:56,100 Michael Smith: sort of a political kind of person, you have to 191 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,800 Michael Smith: really watch your step. And the place is becoming more 192 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:02,339 Michael Smith: authoritarian, particularly in the last couple of years under Xi Jinping. 193 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:05,880 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now you were there during the Trump era where 194 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,240 Sean Aylmer: Washington and Beijing were basically at odds the whole time 195 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,789 Sean Aylmer: and... Well, they started off okay, Xi Jinping and Donald 196 00:10:11,789 --> 00:10:13,290 Sean Aylmer: Trump seemed to get on very well for that first 197 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:15,240 Sean Aylmer: meeting, and that lasted about 24 hours and then off 198 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,699 Sean Aylmer: they went. What was it like being in China? What's 199 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:21,090 Sean Aylmer: the attitude towards the US at the moment? 200 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:24,179 Michael Smith: Yeah, the Trump era was really interesting. So I was 201 00:10:24,179 --> 00:10:27,718 Michael Smith: there when the US China trade war sort of really 202 00:10:27,929 --> 00:10:30,419 Michael Smith: kicked off. There was a lot of pressure on China. 203 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,030 Michael Smith: And Australia was sort of really out of the picture 204 00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:36,150 Michael Smith: then. We weren't drawn into that trade war at all, 205 00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:39,300 Michael Smith: although there were sort of different tensions playing out in relation 206 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:43,770 Michael Smith: to foreign interference concerns back in Australia. And I think you 207 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:46,228 Michael Smith: did see this. I mean, I think most Chinese people 208 00:10:46,410 --> 00:10:49,260 Michael Smith: saw Trump as like we do, as being a bit 209 00:10:49,260 --> 00:10:52,290 Michael Smith: of a lunatic. And I think the perception in China 210 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:55,170 Michael Smith: was that the US was pushing back on China purely 211 00:10:55,170 --> 00:10:57,509 Michael Smith: because it wasn't happy that it was a rising power 212 00:10:57,510 --> 00:11:01,769 Michael Smith: and becoming economically stronger. So that was quite interesting. And 213 00:11:01,770 --> 00:11:05,699 Michael Smith: then, things really shifted during the pandemic. I mean, the 214 00:11:05,699 --> 00:11:08,910 Michael Smith: US was a complete mess and all the propaganda and 215 00:11:08,910 --> 00:11:13,020 Michael Smith: the media footage in China, it was just all the 216 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:15,719 Michael Smith: crazy stuff Trump was doing and saying, and the race 217 00:11:15,719 --> 00:11:18,899 Michael Smith: riots and the COVID outbreaks. So people had sort of 218 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:20,760 Michael Smith: this really negative view of the US. 219 00:11:20,820 --> 00:11:22,710 Sean Aylmer: Well, they had a fair bit of material to play with. 220 00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:27,059 Michael Smith: And it plays into the Communist Party sort of argument 221 00:11:27,059 --> 00:11:30,059 Michael Smith: that, well, democracy is a bit broken and our system 222 00:11:30,059 --> 00:11:31,020 Michael Smith: perhaps works better. 223 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,389 Sean Aylmer: Also, I mean the great thing about being a foreign 224 00:11:33,389 --> 00:11:35,639 Sean Aylmer: correspondent is you're allowed to do all sorts of stuff 225 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:37,860 Sean Aylmer: that you probably can't do when you're sitting back in 226 00:11:37,860 --> 00:11:41,279 Sean Aylmer: the office in Melbourne or Sydney. You met Jack Ma, 227 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:44,130 Sean Aylmer: who I think is one of the most incredible individuals 228 00:11:44,130 --> 00:11:47,280 Sean Aylmer: ever. He's a founder of Alibaba, a man who, at 229 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,970 Sean Aylmer: one point, was probably the richest Chinese person though, has 230 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:53,250 Sean Aylmer: had an incredible fall from grace over the last six 231 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:55,710 Sean Aylmer: months or so. First, how'd you get the interview and 232 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:56,609 Sean Aylmer: what was he like? 233 00:11:56,849 --> 00:11:59,279 Michael Smith: Yeah, look, I mean I was very lucky to get that interview. 234 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,460 Michael Smith: He doesn't do a lot of interviews with the Western 235 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:06,059 Michael Smith: media, and frankly, when I requested the interview I was 236 00:12:06,059 --> 00:12:08,730 Michael Smith: a bit shocked when he said yes. And I think 237 00:12:08,730 --> 00:12:10,920 Michael Smith: it's partly... he does have this sort of great affection 238 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,400 Michael Smith: for Australia. When he was quite young as a teenager, 239 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,760 Michael Smith: he met this Australian family, the Morley family, back in 240 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,150 Michael Smith: his hometown in China, and they eventually brought him over 241 00:12:21,150 --> 00:12:23,520 Michael Smith: to Australia. I think he was in his early twenties, 242 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,500 Michael Smith: and he spent some time in Newcastle. And his experience 243 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,199 Michael Smith: in Australia had a really big impact on him. So 244 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,480 Michael Smith: he does speak quite fondly of Australia. 245 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,759 Sean Aylmer: Hold on, I've got to jump in here. His image of 246 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,080 Sean Aylmer: Australia is Newcastle in New South Wales in the 1980s. That's 247 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:40,980 Sean Aylmer: a pretty rough town. 248 00:12:41,580 --> 00:12:45,120 Michael Smith: That's right. I mean, I think he probably visited Sydney and went 249 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,039 Michael Smith: out on the harbor and stuff, but that was his... Remember this 250 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,369 Michael Smith: is when he was back before he built his sort 251 00:12:53,369 --> 00:12:54,509 Michael Smith: of e- commerce empire. 252 00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:57,720 Sean Aylmer: So what happened to him? I mean, we sort of 253 00:12:57,809 --> 00:13:01,140 Sean Aylmer: read about the fact that the Ant float was pulled 254 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:03,689 Sean Aylmer: and it just sounds like the Chinese authorities just didn't 255 00:13:03,690 --> 00:13:05,550 Sean Aylmer: like the power he had. Is that what it boils down to? 256 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:08,699 Michael Smith: Yeah. No, I think it says a lot about where 257 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:13,078 Michael Smith: China's heading. So when I interviewed Ma in 2018, he 258 00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:16,380 Michael Smith: was the poster child for entrepreneurism in China. He was 259 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:20,010 Michael Smith: a household name. He was really a celebrated figure. And 260 00:13:20,010 --> 00:13:24,358 Michael Smith: then, within a couple of years later, he's completely on 261 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,078 Michael Smith: the nose. They pulled the float of his financial services 262 00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:32,760 Michael Smith: spinoff rather dramatically, then he disappeared for three months late 263 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,559 Michael Smith: last year, and now it looks like he's going to 264 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,740 Michael Smith: be forced to sell his stake in Alibaba. And he 265 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:41,639 Michael Smith: really fell foul of the authorities. He was quite outspoken. 266 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:44,159 Michael Smith: He was quite critical in a speech last November about 267 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:48,360 Michael Smith: how the banking system's regulated in China. And people say, 268 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,940 Michael Smith: well, that was just one step too far. He sort 269 00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:54,510 Michael Smith: of annoyed Xi Jinping and now he's completely on the 270 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:57,480 Michael Smith: nose. But it's also a reflection of we've seen a 271 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,149 Michael Smith: lot more state control over the private sector in the 272 00:14:00,150 --> 00:14:02,458 Michael Smith: last year or two, and I think it's just getting 273 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,430 Michael Smith: much harder for these entrepreneurs in China now. 274 00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:12,420 Sean Aylmer: We'll be back with more in a moment. I'm talking 275 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:15,599 Sean Aylmer: to Mike Smith, China correspondent for the Australian Financial Review, and 276 00:14:15,599 --> 00:14:19,830 Sean Aylmer: author of The Last Correspondent. We write and speak and 277 00:14:19,830 --> 00:14:23,730 Sean Aylmer: talk a lot about China. Does Australia hit the radar 278 00:14:23,879 --> 00:14:24,870 Sean Aylmer: when you're in China? 279 00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:29,460 Michael Smith: Not really. I mean, most Chinese people I meet had 280 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:31,530 Michael Smith: a lot of affection for Australia. A lot of them 281 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:35,009 Michael Smith: either have children studying here or they know someone studying 282 00:14:35,010 --> 00:14:37,290 Michael Smith: here. So a lot of them have actually been here 283 00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:39,030 Michael Smith: and they go, " Oh wow, you guys have got great 284 00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:42,690 Michael Smith: beaches and great food." And towards the end of my 285 00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:45,570 Michael Smith: time there, people were a bit more critical of Australia. 286 00:14:45,570 --> 00:14:49,800 Michael Smith: But I think we overstate our importance here. I mean, I think on 287 00:14:50,190 --> 00:14:54,150 Michael Smith: the world stage, we are seen as being reasonably insignificant 288 00:14:54,179 --> 00:14:57,090 Michael Smith: in Beijing's mind. So I think they get quite annoyed 289 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,320 Michael Smith: when we're quite outspoken and we're lecturing them on human 290 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,410 Michael Smith: rights and how to run their country. So I think they sort 291 00:15:04,410 --> 00:15:06,780 Michael Smith: of maybe perceive us as being a bit of an 292 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:07,950 Michael Smith: annoyance at the moment. 293 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:10,619 Sean Aylmer: But I mean, of course China is in dispute with 294 00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:15,089 Sean Aylmer: not just Australia, but lots of countries, US, EU, certainly 295 00:15:15,089 --> 00:15:15,990 Sean Aylmer: others in the region. 296 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,560 Michael Smith: That's right. And look, even you talk to sort of 297 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,680 Michael Smith: experienced China watchers and everyone's a bit confused about what 298 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,710 Michael Smith: Xi Jinping's up to. I mean, he's sort of picking 299 00:15:25,710 --> 00:15:29,789 Michael Smith: fights with everyone, the US, Canada, India, Europe and us, 300 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,900 Michael Smith: so you name it. So they've emerged from this pandemic. 301 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:36,750 Michael Smith: They're very confident, very emboldened, and I think we're going 302 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:39,930 Michael Smith: to see more pushback. And unfortunately, poor old Australia's got 303 00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:42,570 Michael Smith: a bit caught in the crossfire. We're a pretty easy 304 00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:45,929 Michael Smith: target. We're so economically reliant on China, and they really 305 00:15:45,929 --> 00:15:47,970 Michael Smith: have decided to pick on us. 306 00:15:48,210 --> 00:15:49,859 Sean Aylmer: Except they still like our iron ore. 307 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,510 Michael Smith: They do. Seems to be one safe commodity for now anyway. 308 00:15:55,140 --> 00:15:56,790 Sean Aylmer: Mike, thanks for talking to Fear and Greed. 309 00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:58,470 Michael Smith: Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. 310 00:15:58,830 --> 00:16:01,590 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Smith, China correspondent for the Australian Financial 311 00:16:01,590 --> 00:16:05,460 Sean Aylmer: Review and the author of The Last Correspondent. Go and read 312 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:07,709 Sean Aylmer: it. Mike is a great writer and it is a 313 00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:10,440 Sean Aylmer: cracking read. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. 314 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,959 Sean Aylmer: Join me every weekday morning for the full Fear and 315 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,020 Sean Aylmer: Greed podcast with all your business news. I'm Sean Aylmer. 316 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:16,950 Sean Aylmer: Have a good day.