1 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:06,300 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,510 --> 00:00:10,469 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Given the extraordinary strength of the employment market now, 3 00:00:10,469 --> 00:00:12,960 Sean Aylmer: you'd think plenty of workers will be taking the opportunity 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,439 Sean Aylmer: to change jobs and secure a better deal, but that's 5 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:19,440 Sean Aylmer: not happening, according to new data from economic research house, 6 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:23,310 Sean Aylmer: e61 Institute, and there are plenty of reasons from IR 7 00:00:23,310 --> 00:00:26,910 Sean Aylmer: hurdles and low wages growth to noncompete clauses and high 8 00:00:26,910 --> 00:00:30,960 Sean Aylmer: house prices. Michael Brennan is the CEO of the e61 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,039 Sean Aylmer: Institute, and former chair of the Australian Productivity Commission. Michael, welcome to 10 00:00:35,039 --> 00:00:35,730 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:38,490 Michael Brennan: Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,610 Sean Aylmer: This is an incredibly strong labor market and has been 13 00:00:41,610 --> 00:00:43,200 Sean Aylmer: for a couple of years, and in actual fact for 14 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,779 Sean Aylmer: the last decade it's been getting stronger in terms of 15 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:48,149 Sean Aylmer: the unemployment rate, notwithstanding what's happened in the last few 16 00:00:48,150 --> 00:00:54,270 Sean Aylmer: quarters. Are people taking advantage of that and changing jobs? 17 00:00:54,869 --> 00:00:57,120 Michael Brennan: What's interesting, you're absolutely right on a lot of the 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,770 Michael Brennan: vital signs about the labor market, various high participation rates, 19 00:01:01,770 --> 00:01:05,670 Michael Brennan: strong hours worked, low unemployment rate. It all looks pretty 20 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:07,738 Michael Brennan: strong. One of the mysteries, of course, has been low 21 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:10,319 Michael Brennan: wage growth. But one of the things that we've noticed 22 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,719 Michael Brennan: is that there's been a long- term slowdown in the 23 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:16,110 Michael Brennan: rate at which people switch jobs, so the movement of 24 00:01:16,110 --> 00:01:18,540 Michael Brennan: people from one job to another, the rate at which 25 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:22,889 Michael Brennan: that's occurring has slowed. Notwithstanding that, one of the key 26 00:01:22,889 --> 00:01:26,009 Michael Brennan: findings of this piece of research is that job switching, 27 00:01:26,009 --> 00:01:28,499 Michael Brennan: particularly for young people is one of the key ways 28 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:33,179 Michael Brennan: that they achieve pay increases. It's one of the mechanisms 29 00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:36,240 Michael Brennan: by which pay does rise such that those who switch 30 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,619 Michael Brennan: jobs on average on our research tend to have pay 31 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:44,219 Michael Brennan: outcomes nine percentage points better than those who didn't switch 32 00:01:44,219 --> 00:01:47,759 Michael Brennan: jobs. And so it's important that that mechanism be allowed to 33 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,230 Michael Brennan: operate to its full effect. 34 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:52,500 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Couple of things there, which I'll come to the 35 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,350 Sean Aylmer: young people, but I'm more interested about me right now, 36 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:58,320 Sean Aylmer: Michael, the older people. The idea though that people aren't 37 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,589 Sean Aylmer: shifting jobs as much as they were. Why is that? 38 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,980 Michael Brennan: Well, it's not altogether clear. It's been a reasonably long- 39 00:02:04,980 --> 00:02:10,200 Michael Brennan: term trend since the early 1990s. Obviously during COVID there 40 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,740 Michael Brennan: was a particular period where job switching slowed, but that 41 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:16,470 Michael Brennan: was partly a policy intervention in the form of JobKeeper, 42 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:21,508 Michael Brennan: which was deliberately aimed at maintaining the link between existing 43 00:02:21,508 --> 00:02:27,210 Michael Brennan: employers and their existing employees. Since JobKeeper was removed, we have 44 00:02:27,210 --> 00:02:29,940 Michael Brennan: seen a little bit of an uptick in that rate 45 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:32,700 Michael Brennan: of job switching, but it's still not enough to reverse 46 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:35,339 Michael Brennan: what has been that long- term trend. Now, some of 47 00:02:35,340 --> 00:02:38,820 Michael Brennan: it could be age related. The average age of the 48 00:02:38,820 --> 00:02:41,400 Michael Brennan: workforce is a little older now than it has been 49 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,280 Michael Brennan: in the past, and older workers tend not to switch 50 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,940 Michael Brennan: jobs quite as rapidly and as readily as younger workers, 51 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,190 Michael Brennan: but it could be the policies playing a role. I 52 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:54,149 Michael Brennan: mean, we have looked at issues like the prevalence of 53 00:02:54,450 --> 00:02:58,859 Michael Brennan: these noncompete agreements, the noncompete clauses in employment contracts, which 54 00:02:59,309 --> 00:03:02,490 Michael Brennan: hadn't had a lot of attention in policy circles, but 55 00:03:02,550 --> 00:03:04,650 Michael Brennan: does look as though it's more prevalent than you might 56 00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:07,440 Michael Brennan: think. There are a range of other things like occupational licensing, 57 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,460 Michael Brennan: potentially housing, barriers to moving house, like stamp duty. So 58 00:03:11,460 --> 00:03:13,109 Michael Brennan: it could be a range of these things that are 59 00:03:13,110 --> 00:03:16,859 Michael Brennan: just inhibiting the mobility, just putting up barriers to the 60 00:03:16,859 --> 00:03:18,508 Michael Brennan: ability of people to change jobs. 61 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:23,190 Sean Aylmer: Kind of intuitively, I would've thought it went the other 62 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:27,599 Sean Aylmer: way. COVID is a specific period, it's an outlier, but 63 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:32,099 Sean Aylmer: technology you would think would better enable people to change 64 00:03:32,099 --> 00:03:34,109 Sean Aylmer: jobs, wouldn't it? Or am I getting the wrong end 65 00:03:34,109 --> 00:03:34,980 Sean Aylmer: of the stick there maybe? 66 00:03:35,820 --> 00:03:38,520 Michael Brennan: No, I think there is a lot to that and, 67 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,000 Michael Brennan: of course, as is so often the case, it's the 68 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,849 Michael Brennan: modern conceit to think that the pace of change has 69 00:03:44,849 --> 00:03:48,179 Michael Brennan: never been so rapid, and we have the cliched view 70 00:03:48,179 --> 00:03:50,520 Michael Brennan: that young people starting in the workforce today will have 71 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:55,230 Michael Brennan: however many jobs, however many careers. The brute reality is 72 00:03:55,230 --> 00:03:58,650 Michael Brennan: people are actually changing jobs less than a generation ago. 73 00:03:58,650 --> 00:04:02,910 Michael Brennan: So, once again, the data, as it so often does, 74 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:06,690 Michael Brennan: kind of pricks the conventional wisdom a little bit. You're 75 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:09,419 Michael Brennan: right. I mean, technology could be an enabler. It could 76 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:12,210 Michael Brennan: also operate in the other way to the extent that 77 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:16,200 Michael Brennan: people develop an expertise in using capital, using technology that 78 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,930 Michael Brennan: is specific to the firm, maybe that makes it more 79 00:04:18,930 --> 00:04:20,490 Michael Brennan: attractive for them to stay put. 80 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,779 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so we do have some people shifting and was 81 00:04:24,779 --> 00:04:28,320 Sean Aylmer: it 9% you said the increase if people do shift? 82 00:04:28,830 --> 00:04:33,240 Michael Brennan: Yeah, nine percentage points. It's about $ 7, 500 on average. 83 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:36,479 Michael Brennan: We're talking in percentage points because what we're really looking 84 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,119 Michael Brennan: at is the experience of those people who switch jobs 85 00:04:39,630 --> 00:04:42,960 Michael Brennan: against the counterfactual of those who don't switch jobs, and 86 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,900 Michael Brennan: it's basically a nine percentage point difference between those two. 87 00:04:46,379 --> 00:04:50,070 Michael Brennan: That's the differential, the uplift if you like, that the 88 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:52,560 Michael Brennan: job switches receive on average. 89 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:57,059 Sean Aylmer: Is that not high enough to get enough job switches 90 00:04:57,059 --> 00:04:59,309 Sean Aylmer: going? Is that kind of the bottom line here, the 91 00:04:59,309 --> 00:05:01,079 Sean Aylmer: incentive isn't great enough? 92 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:04,830 Michael Brennan: So that's not all together clear, because it's not clear how that 93 00:05:04,830 --> 00:05:08,099 Michael Brennan: number has changed over time. It's a little hard to 94 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,460 Michael Brennan: go back into the data and look at whether that 95 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,409 Michael Brennan: differential has shifted a lot. In principle, and it's a 96 00:05:16,410 --> 00:05:19,170 Michael Brennan: little higher for younger people, you would think that would 97 00:05:19,170 --> 00:05:22,709 Michael Brennan: be a pretty good inducement. Well, it's a significant uplift 98 00:05:22,709 --> 00:05:26,910 Michael Brennan: on the counterfactual of staying put. So it could be 99 00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:30,599 Michael Brennan: that that reflects some of these barriers, but it could 100 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,210 Michael Brennan: also be that perhaps the opportunities in terms of switching 101 00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:35,820 Michael Brennan: jobs aren't quite as attractive as they've been in the past. 102 00:05:36,389 --> 00:05:38,339 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Michael. We'll be back in a minute. 103 00:05:38,339 --> 00:05:47,820 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Michael Brennan, CEO of the e61 104 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:54,389 Sean Aylmer: Institute, and former chair of the Australian Productivity Commission. What about nonmonetary 105 00:05:54,450 --> 00:05:58,830 Sean Aylmer: rewards? So for years you hear that people, it's not 106 00:05:58,830 --> 00:06:00,930 Sean Aylmer: about the money, it's about lots of other things now. 107 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,110 Sean Aylmer: All my cohorts from my early days as an economist 108 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:06,779 Sean Aylmer: went into financial markets. It was about money. I'm telling 109 00:06:06,779 --> 00:06:09,960 Sean Aylmer: you it really was. I'm not so sure about that 110 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,690 Sean Aylmer: nowadays or whether it's flexible work practices, whether it's time 111 00:06:15,809 --> 00:06:19,350 Sean Aylmer: that millennials think differently. How much of that sort of 112 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:21,750 Sean Aylmer: stuff should play into what we're talking about here? 113 00:06:22,470 --> 00:06:24,990 Michael Brennan: Well, we certainly found some evidence that particularly for older 114 00:06:24,990 --> 00:06:28,319 Michael Brennan: workers, the differential actually works in the opposite way. So 115 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,319 Michael Brennan: those people who are switching jobs are actually earning less 116 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,868 Michael Brennan: than those who are staying in their existing job, and 117 00:06:33,870 --> 00:06:36,690 Michael Brennan: that clearly must reflect that they're changing jobs for reasons 118 00:06:36,690 --> 00:06:40,320 Michael Brennan: other than straight remuneration, and that could reflect preferences, it 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,990 Michael Brennan: could reflect lifestyle issues and that sort of thing. I 120 00:06:42,990 --> 00:06:47,190 Michael Brennan: think for other workers, the biggest question mark, I think 121 00:06:47,190 --> 00:06:51,089 Michael Brennan: will be the emergence of flexible work, remote work in 122 00:06:51,089 --> 00:06:53,488 Michael Brennan: particular, and that's something that we haven't yet really had 123 00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:56,310 Michael Brennan: a lot of time to observe, but we may well 124 00:06:56,310 --> 00:06:59,070 Michael Brennan: see two things there. I think a bit of sorting 125 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,389 Michael Brennan: of workers going to those firms where the policy on 126 00:07:03,389 --> 00:07:05,790 Michael Brennan: remote work particularly suits them and it could suit them 127 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:08,520 Michael Brennan: either way, the availability of remote work or maybe a 128 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,050 Michael Brennan: strong culture of presence in the workplace. But we might also, it 129 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,660 Michael Brennan: is possible to your hypothesis that some workers might see 130 00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:21,120 Michael Brennan: it as advantageous to stay put because it gives them 131 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,949 Michael Brennan: a stronger case to make for those degrees of flexibility, 132 00:07:25,950 --> 00:07:28,229 Michael Brennan: which an employer is more likely to grant to a 133 00:07:28,230 --> 00:07:32,040 Michael Brennan: worker that's incumbent, they're well known, they've got a track 134 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,880 Michael Brennan: record, they're trusted. So that might add to the attraction 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,940 Michael Brennan: of staying with an existing employer if you think you 136 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:41,429 Michael Brennan: can get the right sort of flexibility. So we'll see. 137 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:42,900 Michael Brennan: That'll be an interesting thing to test. 138 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:45,960 Sean Aylmer: Is there a good or bad in this, the fact 139 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,800 Sean Aylmer: that people don't shift as much? Obviously we started this 140 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,530 Sean Aylmer: off and you said wages growth has been relatively low, 141 00:07:52,770 --> 00:07:54,870 Sean Aylmer: so depending on how you judge that as a good 142 00:07:54,870 --> 00:07:57,180 Sean Aylmer: or a bad, but does it actually matter? 143 00:07:57,870 --> 00:08:00,179 Michael Brennan: In one sense, there's no good or bad, and it's wrong 144 00:08:00,179 --> 00:08:03,630 Michael Brennan: to impose a value system on it. Loyalty is a 145 00:08:03,630 --> 00:08:06,450 Michael Brennan: great attribute of course, and for those people who stay 146 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:09,870 Michael Brennan: with an employer and rise through the ranks at an 147 00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:12,060 Michael Brennan: existing employer, of course, that can be a really good 148 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:13,350 Michael Brennan: thing to do, and it works for a lot of 149 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:16,860 Michael Brennan: people. It's not that the choice is wrong, it's more 150 00:08:16,860 --> 00:08:21,780 Michael Brennan: whether policy and the broad context is doing something that 151 00:08:21,780 --> 00:08:25,800 Michael Brennan: prevents people from achieving the things that they might otherwise 152 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:29,280 Michael Brennan: be able to achieve by moving job, and that's two 153 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,770 Michael Brennan: things I think. It's those areas where there might be 154 00:08:31,770 --> 00:08:35,250 Michael Brennan: a barrier. We talked about noncompete agreements. We talked about 155 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:39,210 Michael Brennan: occupational licensing. Even skill levels are a two- edged sword. 156 00:08:39,210 --> 00:08:42,780 Michael Brennan: I mean, you could see instances where building up your 157 00:08:42,780 --> 00:08:46,440 Michael Brennan: skills makes you more mobile, but if it's to the point 158 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,030 Michael Brennan: of credentialism where every narrow occupation has a really specific 159 00:08:51,030 --> 00:08:53,368 Michael Brennan: credential associated with it, then it takes a lot of 160 00:08:53,370 --> 00:08:56,400 Michael Brennan: time to re- skill. If I want to move or if 161 00:08:56,460 --> 00:08:58,529 Michael Brennan: I want to stop being an economist and go and 162 00:08:58,529 --> 00:09:01,110 Michael Brennan: become a high school teacher or something, it's not that 163 00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:02,790 Michael Brennan: attractive if I have to go into a four- year 164 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:05,850 Michael Brennan: teaching degree or even a two- year master's degree, that 165 00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:10,140 Michael Brennan: sort of thing. So it's often really about those barriers. 166 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,559 Michael Brennan: Then there's another side to it, which is, it's possible 167 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,500 Michael Brennan: that the barriers, we suspect the barriers are playing a 168 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:18,990 Michael Brennan: role, but even if they weren't, it might just be 169 00:09:19,050 --> 00:09:23,578 Michael Brennan: that in a less dynamic economy, maybe there aren't new 170 00:09:23,580 --> 00:09:27,660 Michael Brennan: emerging high- productivity firms that are basically offering those attractive 171 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,799 Michael Brennan: endpoints, those attractive destinations, particularly for young workers so that 172 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:34,260 Michael Brennan: they can climb that job ladder at a range of 173 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:36,238 Michael Brennan: different employers, and that too would be a bit of 174 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,260 Michael Brennan: a problem. So you're right, there's no right or wrong 175 00:09:40,290 --> 00:09:43,620 Michael Brennan: choice for any individual. It's more when we step back 176 00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:45,660 Michael Brennan: and look at the aggregate data and we start to 177 00:09:45,660 --> 00:09:48,809 Michael Brennan: worry about whether there are barriers or just less opportunity 178 00:09:48,809 --> 00:09:50,190 Michael Brennan: than there'd been in the past. 179 00:09:51,210 --> 00:09:53,190 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I can't not ask you then about the recent 180 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:58,530 Sean Aylmer: changes in industrial relations legislation, which the crossbenchers have supported. 181 00:09:58,530 --> 00:10:03,030 Sean Aylmer: We'll go through around the right to not involve yourself 182 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:08,730 Sean Aylmer: in work outside hours, around gig workers, around casuals and 183 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,690 Sean Aylmer: the road to becoming permanent. BCA have come out, some 184 00:10:12,690 --> 00:10:16,410 Sean Aylmer: of the big company CEOs have talked about flexibility and the 185 00:10:16,410 --> 00:10:19,530 Sean Aylmer: lack of flexibility that provides, they've pushed it onto productivity. 186 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,050 Sean Aylmer: Do you agree? Do you think that some of these 187 00:10:22,050 --> 00:10:24,330 Sean Aylmer: sorts of changes, and I don't really want to get 188 00:10:24,330 --> 00:10:29,519 Sean Aylmer: political here, Michael, but are these sorts of constraints around 189 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,200 Sean Aylmer: how workforces are managed, does it have the potential to 190 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,580 Sean Aylmer: hurt flexibility and productivity? 191 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,760 Michael Brennan: Yeah. Look, I'm glad you don't want to get political 192 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,300 Michael Brennan: because I certainly don't want to get political, but I 193 00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:45,779 Michael Brennan: think the broad point is this. Flexibility in labor markets 194 00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:49,890 Michael Brennan: is in general a good thing. It's important to protect 195 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:53,070 Michael Brennan: minimum conditions, and Australia has a pretty robust system for 196 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:56,728 Michael Brennan: doing that. So the award minimum now, the National Employment 197 00:10:56,730 --> 00:11:01,049 Michael Brennan: Standards that have statutory rules around the minimum set of 198 00:11:01,049 --> 00:11:03,929 Michael Brennan: conditions that you just can't go below, Australia has a 199 00:11:03,929 --> 00:11:06,690 Michael Brennan: high minimum wage. I think that's worked actually pretty well 200 00:11:06,690 --> 00:11:10,080 Michael Brennan: for Australia. So a robust set of minima is important, 201 00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:13,290 Michael Brennan: and then the principle should be above that. I think it 202 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:16,559 Michael Brennan: really should be as flexible as possible. The ideal is 203 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,790 Michael Brennan: that at the workplace level, bosses and workers are on 204 00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:23,760 Michael Brennan: the same side, they're working cooperatively to find the arrangements 205 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,890 Michael Brennan: that suit them best and that there's a lot of 206 00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:29,760 Michael Brennan: mutual advantage here. So I think there is a risk 207 00:11:29,820 --> 00:11:37,409 Michael Brennan: in industrial relations, labor law regulations that diminish that flexibility 208 00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:40,559 Michael Brennan: to an extent. The broad direction of change had been 209 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:45,120 Michael Brennan: to move modestly in the direction of greater flexibility. That 210 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,689 Michael Brennan: has shifted, and we are seeing a little bit of 211 00:11:49,260 --> 00:11:53,670 Michael Brennan: return to a degree of increased regulation. Now, it's important 212 00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:56,309 Michael Brennan: to keep it in perspective. Australia has pretty flexible labor 213 00:11:56,309 --> 00:11:59,219 Michael Brennan: markets by global standards. If you compare this to much 214 00:11:59,219 --> 00:12:03,088 Michael Brennan: of the OECD, certainly Europe. But will it have an effect 215 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:06,000 Michael Brennan: on productivity? That's a really hard thing to quantify. Just 216 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,330 Michael Brennan: the broad point I'd make about productivity is you just 217 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:12,780 Michael Brennan: need a whole lot of policy settings set in the 218 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:16,770 Michael Brennan: right sort of direction, and the risk with diminishing workplace 219 00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:19,470 Michael Brennan: flexibility, which is a pretty broad lever because it affects 220 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:22,800 Michael Brennan: a large number of workers across the economy, the risk 221 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,718 Michael Brennan: is that that can hold productivity growth back. 222 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,530 Sean Aylmer: Michael, that was an excellent nonpolitical answer. Well done. Thank 223 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:29,491 Sean Aylmer: you for talking to Fear and Greed. 224 00:12:29,491 --> 00:12:30,810 Michael Brennan: Thank you, Sean. 225 00:12:31,259 --> 00:12:35,069 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Brennan, CEO of the e61 Institute. That's e61, 226 00:12:35,369 --> 00:12:40,050 Sean Aylmer: e61 Institute and former chair of the Australian Productivity Commission. This is 227 00:12:40,050 --> 00:12:42,330 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning 228 00:12:42,330 --> 00:12:44,608 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best 229 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:47,489 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Have a great day.