WEBVTT - Jon Winfield’s side of the story 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:07.280 From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christinamiot. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:14.600 It's Monday, October fourteenth. Former Liberal staffer Bruce Lamman is 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.840 returning to court on Monday morning. He's seeking to appeal 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.360 Justice Michael Lee's finding that, on the balance of probabilities 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.640 he raped Britney Higgins inside Parliament House in twenty nineteen, 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.160 and he's hoping to avoid paying a hefty surety demanded 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.760 by Network ten. Bruce Lahman has always vehemently denied any 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:40.400 sexual contact occurred. The Coalition has the edge over Labor 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.839 on a two party preferred basis. That's according to new 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.240 data from Newspoll and it's the first time the Opposition 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.320 has taken the lead since Anthony Albanezi won the twenty 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.400 twenty two federal election. You can read our experts analysis 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.040 of those new numbers right now at the Australian dot 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:03.800 com dot au. John Winfield appeared to receive information about 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.199 aspects of the initial police investigation into the nineteen ninety 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.560 three disappearance of his wife Bronwyn when he should have 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.360 been a person of interest. In today's episode, How a 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.679 murder Suspect Skirted Police suspicion for decades. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.959 I actually think Graham was the one that told me 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.280 about I know Graham spoke to her. I told Graham 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.680 this only through what Graham told me. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.559 These are the words spoken by murder suspect John Winfield 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.200 during an eighty four minute police interview given in nineteen 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:50.560 ninety eight, five years after his wife Bronwyn vanished from 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.960 their Lennox head home. They're being read by a voice 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:58.400 actor for the Australian's investigative podcast into Bronwyn's unsolved disappearance 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:03.480 and suspected murder. New episodes by National Chief correspondent Headley 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.400 Thomas are available for subscribers right now at bronwinpodcast dot 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.720 com or on the Australians app. The Graham John Winfield 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.880 is referring to is Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin, whose flawed 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.760 initial investigation means Bronwin's loved ones are still searching for 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.960 answers thirty one years later. See In the weeks and 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.640 months after she disappeared on May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.400 Bronwin was treated as a missing person by police, not 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:35.880 as a potential homicide victim, and John appears to have 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:40.120 received crucial information about her life, instead of being treated 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.880 as a person of interest. He's always denied any wrongdoing. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:45.960 Here's Hedley Thomas. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.400 If that's what has happened, it is unusual because you 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.960 have a person of interest, someone who these days and 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.359 no doubt back then as well, should have been a 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.480 number one person of interest, a number one respect if 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.520 you like, in the potential murder or foul play involving Bromwin. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:11.720 And there he is receiving key information about Bromwin's bank account, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.720 about the solicitors that Bromwin had been seeing, who they were, 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.480 about her movements, about her telephone calls. And that's the 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.600 kind of information that, if you're a suspect, could be 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.600 potentially very helpful in helping you aliby yourself and give 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:30.320 a story that might be plausible. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.079 John Winfield appears to confirm in his nineteen ninety eight 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:38.040 interview with Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor that he received information 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:44.800 about Bronlin's personal finances, legal representation, and communications from Detective discn. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.320 I never saw the account, but I actually think Graham 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.839 was the one that told me about this. I think 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.960 it was still in her maiden name. Graham told me 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.200 that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony mattering, 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.240 and I think she'd spoken to her guy Byron Bay 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.400 called I can't remember his name now. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.640 John Winfield's formal police interview is the only official record 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.800 of his side of the story. It was the first 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:16.000 conducted by Glenn Taylor as part of his renewed investigation 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:17.240 in nineteen ninety eight. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.679 I was a poll that so little had been going 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:22.280 back in ninety nine, Eustrilion. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:24.640 It's not all just about conviction. 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.040 It's the family, the children knowing what did actually happen 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:29.960 to Bromwin. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:30.599 Where is she? 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.000 Taylor asked John Winfield more than four hundred questions during 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:39.479 the interview, and Headley is examining the resulting transcript, seventy 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.320 six pages in total, in new episodes of the Bronwin Podcast. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:48.080 Reflecting on the interview more than two decades after it happened, Taylor, 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:52.160 who since retired, told Headley john Winfield attended the interview 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.120 willingly and never requested for a legal representative to be present. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:57.520 I think he. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.200 Still wanted to project in the interview that he was 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.120 concerned for her and that he had nothing to hide. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.960 He'd done nothing wrong. Beled he wanted to put himself 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:13.120 across as wanting to assist the police. We tried not 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.440 to lead any staying on tan. It was the first 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:22.920 interview of John Winfield by any police officers, so to 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.800 that extent it was pretty important. But it was also 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:30.080 the first interview that Glenn Taylor did of anyone in 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.120 his investigation, and as a result, it meant that Glen 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.640 Taylor was at a bit of a disadvantage along with 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.520 Wayne Tembe, the senior constable, because they didn't have a 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:45.840 lot of information from other members of the community, from 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.120 other people in Bromwin's family, people who knew John, and 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.640 people who had contact with Bromwin in her last days 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.120 and hours. And because Glen Taylor didn't have a lot 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.560 of those details from people at the time he questioning 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:04.760 John Winfield, he really didn't have an opportunity to challenge 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.960 some of the things that John Winfield told Glen Taylor, 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.640 And we can see now with the benefit of hindsight, 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.680 areas that Glen Taylor no doubt wishes he had questioned 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.279 more closely, but he just didn't know what the actual 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.039 truth of it was at the time. We can also 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:28.160 see that John Winfield left out some pretty important information, 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:33.320 particularly around Monday, seventeen May nineteen ninety three, and that 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.159 was the day that he arrived in Sydney after driving 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.880 overnight with Bromlin's two daughters and their pet dog. And 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.280 he has this period of a few hours where his 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:51.719 movements are really unexplained. But John Winfield didn't volunteer anything 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:56.160 about his visit to his ex wife's house in Sydney 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.360 when he was being questioned by Glen Taylor. I think 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.359 that became a bit of a red flag for Taylor. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.880 He thought, why did John omit that? What was his 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.680 motive for not disclosing what he had done? And we 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.360 have talked about it, and he doesn't believe that it 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.320 was forgetfulness. You don't forget going to see your ex 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.920 wife out of the blue, someone you haven't seen for 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.880 some time, and ask her and her mother in law 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.880 to look after two children for several hours. He believes 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.000 that it was a very deliberate omission. 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:36.400 Coming up how this investigation took another unexpected turn. Season 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.520 two of Bronwin is available right now at Bronwin podcast 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.440 dot com. We're subscribers get to listen first, check us 0:07:43.480 --> 0:08:10.760 out and we'll be back after this break. When Hedley 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.320 Thomas set out to investigate the disappearance and suspected murder 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.880 of Bronwin Winfield, he thought the podcast series would comprise 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:23.360 six or maybe eight episodes, but these investigations require painstaking 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:28.160 research and reporting over months and even years, and more 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.840 than one twist has seen the series return for a 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:35.640 second season. The first was the account of Judy Singh, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.320 who said she saw John Winfield driving down Sandstone Crescent 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.080 with what looked like a human body in the back 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.360 of the family's Ford Falcon on the night Bronwyn vanished. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.120 And this night I was sitting out and I could 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.800 see directly into the car and he kind of looked 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.520 up this night and I saw this what looked to 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.240 be like a mummy in the back of the car, 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.040 and I thought, well, if you was taking out belongings, 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.920 you wouldn't make it look like a body, do you 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:06.400 know what I mean? 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.440 The new South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit moved swiftly 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.880 on that new lead, and now the existence of a 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:18.480 secret daughter has added another dimension to the story. Sonya 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.840 Lee was born in late nineteen seventy two, when John 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.320 Winfield and her mother were both teenagers living in Sydney's 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:30.400 sutherland Shire. He's always denied his Sonia Lee's father, but 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.040 their physical resemblance is uncanny. She's now in her early 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.720 fifties and doesn't want a relationship with her biological father 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.280 Sonia Lee says she came forward to Headley Thomas in 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.480 hopes of helping solve the mystery of what happened to Bronwyn. 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.520 The first time I ever saw his face was on 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:53.040 the front page of The Australian. He'll never be my father, 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.920 will never be mates. We'll never sit down and have 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.400 a kappa together. I'll never break bread with him, purely 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.400 because my grandmother would be disgusted in me if I did. 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:10.840 You said before that you were very hopeful there would 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:15.000 be a good outcome. What do you believe is a 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.959 good outcome for the girls? 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.040 Then, knowing what happened to Brounwin, the good, the bad, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.520 the ugly, whatever it may be, they deserve to know, 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.720 it's got to be the heaviest load for them to carry. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:31.160 Here's Headley. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.600 The unexpected always seems to jump out of left field 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.480 with these kinds of podcasts cold case investigations. When Sonnyili 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.920 came forward and said that she wanted to talk. She 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:48.959 wanted to disclose this. Her point was that the person 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:54.400 she knows to be her father biologically is in her 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.760 eyes a liar, and that his first major lie was 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:03.920 his denial of paternity. She has known, she insists for 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.640 some years that he's been her father, but she felt 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.600 that it was time for her to do some truth 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.680 telling in the hope that other people who perhaps know 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.520 about lies told by others, or even the person of 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.959 interest in this case, might come forward. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:21.640 And just finally, Hadley, what's your goal for this new 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:22.520 season of Bromwin. 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.800 We want to establish as much factual detail as possible. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:32.600 There are still witnesses who have information to offer pieces 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.600 of evidence that form part of the puzzle and all 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.680 of this is hopefully going to be properly reconsidered by 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.520 the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in New 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.959 South Wales. This was a case remember that in two 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:50.439 thousand and two should have been prosecuted according to the 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.640 then New South Wales Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovich, the 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.200 same Deputy State Coroner at the time who recommended that 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.880 Chris Dawson prosecuted for the murder of his wife Lynn. Now, 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.360 Karl was absolutely right back in two thousand and three 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.280 when he made that recommendation. He made the same recommendation 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.680 one year earlier in two thousand and two, after running 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.880 the inquest into bromwin win Fields presumed death. It's surely 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.480 time for fresh eyes in the New South Wales office 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.719 of the DPP to have a really good look at 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:27.520 the whole case. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:45.840 Headley Thomas is The Australian's national Chief correspondent. It's been 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.920 one year since the Voice was resoundingly voted down in 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.200 a referendum. Now the next generation of Indigenous leaders are 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.960 sharing what they've learned. That story, plus all the nation's 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.800 best news, sport and politics, is live right now at 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.560 the Australian dot com dot au