1
00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,280
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christinamiot.

2
00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 1: It's Monday, October fourteenth. Former Liberal staffer Bruce Lamman is

3
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: returning to court on Monday morning. He's seeking to appeal

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,360
Speaker 1: Justice Michael Lee's finding that, on the balance of probabilities

5
00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: he raped Britney Higgins inside Parliament House in twenty nineteen,

6
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,160
Speaker 1: and he's hoping to avoid paying a hefty surety demanded

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 1: by Network ten. Bruce Lahman has always vehemently denied any

8
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:40,400
Speaker 1: sexual contact occurred. The Coalition has the edge over Labor

9
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,839
Speaker 1: on a two party preferred basis. That's according to new

10
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,240
Speaker 1: data from Newspoll and it's the first time the Opposition

11
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,320
Speaker 1: has taken the lead since Anthony Albanezi won the twenty

12
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: twenty two federal election. You can read our experts analysis

13
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,040
Speaker 1: of those new numbers right now at the Australian dot

14
00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:03,800
Speaker 1: com dot au. John Winfield appeared to receive information about

15
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,199
Speaker 1: aspects of the initial police investigation into the nineteen ninety

16
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 1: three disappearance of his wife Bronwyn when he should have

17
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: been a person of interest. In today's episode, How a

18
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 1: murder Suspect Skirted Police suspicion for decades.

19
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,959
Speaker 2: I actually think Graham was the one that told me

20
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 2: about I know Graham spoke to her. I told Graham

21
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,680
Speaker 2: this only through what Graham told me.

22
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,559
Speaker 1: These are the words spoken by murder suspect John Winfield

23
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,200
Speaker 1: during an eighty four minute police interview given in nineteen

24
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 1: ninety eight, five years after his wife Bronwyn vanished from

25
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,960
Speaker 1: their Lennox head home. They're being read by a voice

26
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: actor for the Australian's investigative podcast into Bronwyn's unsolved disappearance

27
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 1: and suspected murder. New episodes by National Chief correspondent Headley

28
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 1: Thomas are available for subscribers right now at bronwinpodcast dot

29
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 1: com or on the Australians app. The Graham John Winfield

30
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 1: is referring to is Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin, whose flawed

31
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 1: initial investigation means Bronwin's loved ones are still searching for

32
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 1: answers thirty one years later. See In the weeks and

33
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 1: months after she disappeared on May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three,

34
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 1: Bronwin was treated as a missing person by police, not

35
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 1: as a potential homicide victim, and John appears to have

36
00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 1: received crucial information about her life, instead of being treated

37
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: as a person of interest. He's always denied any wrongdoing.

38
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 1: Here's Hedley Thomas.

39
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 3: If that's what has happened, it is unusual because you

40
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,960
Speaker 3: have a person of interest, someone who these days and

41
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,359
Speaker 3: no doubt back then as well, should have been a

42
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 3: number one person of interest, a number one respect if

43
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 3: you like, in the potential murder or foul play involving Bromwin.

44
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 3: And there he is receiving key information about Bromwin's bank account,

45
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 3: about the solicitors that Bromwin had been seeing, who they were,

46
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 3: about her movements, about her telephone calls. And that's the

47
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 3: kind of information that, if you're a suspect, could be

48
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 3: potentially very helpful in helping you aliby yourself and give

49
00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 3: a story that might be plausible.

50
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,079
Speaker 1: John Winfield appears to confirm in his nineteen ninety eight

51
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 1: interview with Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor that he received information

52
00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:44,800
Speaker 1: about Bronlin's personal finances, legal representation, and communications from Detective discn.

53
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 2: I never saw the account, but I actually think Graham

54
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,839
Speaker 2: was the one that told me about this. I think

55
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 2: it was still in her maiden name. Graham told me

56
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 2: that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony mattering,

57
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 2: and I think she'd spoken to her guy Byron Bay

58
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 2: called I can't remember his name now.

59
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 1: John Winfield's formal police interview is the only official record

60
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,800
Speaker 1: of his side of the story. It was the first

61
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: conducted by Glenn Taylor as part of his renewed investigation

62
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight.

63
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,679
Speaker 2: I was a poll that so little had been going

64
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 2: back in ninety nine, Eustrilion.

65
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 3: It's not all just about conviction.

66
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 2: It's the family, the children knowing what did actually happen

67
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:29,960
Speaker 2: to Bromwin.

68
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,599
Speaker 3: Where is she?

69
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,000
Speaker 1: Taylor asked John Winfield more than four hundred questions during

70
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,479
Speaker 1: the interview, and Headley is examining the resulting transcript, seventy

71
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: six pages in total, in new episodes of the Bronwin Podcast.

72
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: Reflecting on the interview more than two decades after it happened, Taylor,

73
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: who since retired, told Headley john Winfield attended the interview

74
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,120
Speaker 1: willingly and never requested for a legal representative to be present.

75
00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 4: I think he.

76
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 2: Still wanted to project in the interview that he was

77
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,120
Speaker 2: concerned for her and that he had nothing to hide.

78
00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 3: He'd done nothing wrong. Beled he wanted to put himself

79
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,120
Speaker 3: across as wanting to assist the police. We tried not

80
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 3: to lead any staying on tan. It was the first

81
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,920
Speaker 3: interview of John Winfield by any police officers, so to

82
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 3: that extent it was pretty important. But it was also

83
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 3: the first interview that Glenn Taylor did of anyone in

84
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 3: his investigation, and as a result, it meant that Glen

85
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 3: Taylor was at a bit of a disadvantage along with

86
00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 3: Wayne Tembe, the senior constable, because they didn't have a

87
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,840
Speaker 3: lot of information from other members of the community, from

88
00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 3: other people in Bromwin's family, people who knew John, and

89
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 3: people who had contact with Bromwin in her last days

90
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 3: and hours. And because Glen Taylor didn't have a lot

91
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 3: of those details from people at the time he questioning

92
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 3: John Winfield, he really didn't have an opportunity to challenge

93
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,960
Speaker 3: some of the things that John Winfield told Glen Taylor,

94
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 3: And we can see now with the benefit of hindsight,

95
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 3: areas that Glen Taylor no doubt wishes he had questioned

96
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 3: more closely, but he just didn't know what the actual

97
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,039
Speaker 3: truth of it was at the time. We can also

98
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,160
Speaker 3: see that John Winfield left out some pretty important information,

99
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 3: particularly around Monday, seventeen May nineteen ninety three, and that

100
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,159
Speaker 3: was the day that he arrived in Sydney after driving

101
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 3: overnight with Bromlin's two daughters and their pet dog. And

102
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,280
Speaker 3: he has this period of a few hours where his

103
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 3: movements are really unexplained. But John Winfield didn't volunteer anything

104
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 3: about his visit to his ex wife's house in Sydney

105
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 3: when he was being questioned by Glen Taylor. I think

106
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,359
Speaker 3: that became a bit of a red flag for Taylor.

107
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 3: He thought, why did John omit that? What was his

108
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,680
Speaker 3: motive for not disclosing what he had done? And we

109
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 3: have talked about it, and he doesn't believe that it

110
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,320
Speaker 3: was forgetfulness. You don't forget going to see your ex

111
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 3: wife out of the blue, someone you haven't seen for

112
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,880
Speaker 3: some time, and ask her and her mother in law

113
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 3: to look after two children for several hours. He believes

114
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 3: that it was a very deliberate omission.

115
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 1: Coming up how this investigation took another unexpected turn. Season

116
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 1: two of Bronwin is available right now at Bronwin podcast

117
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 1: dot com. We're subscribers get to listen first, check us

118
00:07:43,480 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 1: out and we'll be back after this break. When Hedley

119
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,320
Speaker 1: Thomas set out to investigate the disappearance and suspected murder

120
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 1: of Bronwin Winfield, he thought the podcast series would comprise

121
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 1: six or maybe eight episodes, but these investigations require painstaking

122
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 1: research and reporting over months and even years, and more

123
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,840
Speaker 1: than one twist has seen the series return for a

124
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 1: second season. The first was the account of Judy Singh,

125
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 1: who said she saw John Winfield driving down Sandstone Crescent

126
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,080
Speaker 1: with what looked like a human body in the back

127
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,360
Speaker 1: of the family's Ford Falcon on the night Bronwyn vanished.

128
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 4: And this night I was sitting out and I could

129
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 4: see directly into the car and he kind of looked

130
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,520
Speaker 4: up this night and I saw this what looked to

131
00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 4: be like a mummy in the back of the car,

132
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, if you was taking out belongings,

133
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 4: you wouldn't make it look like a body, do you

134
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 4: know what I mean?

135
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,440
Speaker 1: The new South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit moved swiftly

136
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: on that new lead, and now the existence of a

137
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: secret daughter has added another dimension to the story. Sonya

138
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: Lee was born in late nineteen seventy two, when John

139
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,320
Speaker 1: Winfield and her mother were both teenagers living in Sydney's

140
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 1: sutherland Shire. He's always denied his Sonia Lee's father, but

141
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 1: their physical resemblance is uncanny. She's now in her early

142
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,720
Speaker 1: fifties and doesn't want a relationship with her biological father

143
00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: Sonia Lee says she came forward to Headley Thomas in

144
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 1: hopes of helping solve the mystery of what happened to Bronwyn.

145
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 5: The first time I ever saw his face was on

146
00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 5: the front page of The Australian. He'll never be my father,

147
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 5: will never be mates. We'll never sit down and have

148
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 5: a kappa together. I'll never break bread with him, purely

149
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 5: because my grandmother would be disgusted in me if I did.

150
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,840
Speaker 3: You said before that you were very hopeful there would

151
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 3: be a good outcome. What do you believe is a

152
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,959
Speaker 3: good outcome for the girls?

153
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 5: Then, knowing what happened to Brounwin, the good, the bad,

154
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,520
Speaker 5: the ugly, whatever it may be, they deserve to know,

155
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 5: it's got to be the heaviest load for them to carry.

156
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: Here's Headley.

157
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,600
Speaker 3: The unexpected always seems to jump out of left field

158
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,480
Speaker 3: with these kinds of podcasts cold case investigations. When Sonnyili

159
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,920
Speaker 3: came forward and said that she wanted to talk. She

160
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 3: wanted to disclose this. Her point was that the person

161
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 3: she knows to be her father biologically is in her

162
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 3: eyes a liar, and that his first major lie was

163
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 3: his denial of paternity. She has known, she insists for

164
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,640
Speaker 3: some years that he's been her father, but she felt

165
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 3: that it was time for her to do some truth

166
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 3: telling in the hope that other people who perhaps know

167
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,520
Speaker 3: about lies told by others, or even the person of

168
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,959
Speaker 3: interest in this case, might come forward.

169
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: And just finally, Hadley, what's your goal for this new

170
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 1: season of Bromwin.

171
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 3: We want to establish as much factual detail as possible.

172
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 3: There are still witnesses who have information to offer pieces

173
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 3: of evidence that form part of the puzzle and all

174
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 3: of this is hopefully going to be properly reconsidered by

175
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 3: the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in New

176
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,959
Speaker 3: South Wales. This was a case remember that in two

177
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,439
Speaker 3: thousand and two should have been prosecuted according to the

178
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 3: then New South Wales Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovich, the

179
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,200
Speaker 3: same Deputy State Coroner at the time who recommended that

180
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 3: Chris Dawson prosecuted for the murder of his wife Lynn. Now,

181
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 3: Karl was absolutely right back in two thousand and three

182
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 3: when he made that recommendation. He made the same recommendation

183
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,680
Speaker 3: one year earlier in two thousand and two, after running

184
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,880
Speaker 3: the inquest into bromwin win Fields presumed death. It's surely

185
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 3: time for fresh eyes in the New South Wales office

186
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,719
Speaker 3: of the DPP to have a really good look at

187
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 3: the whole case.

188
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 1: Headley Thomas is The Australian's national Chief correspondent. It's been

189
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 1: one year since the Voice was resoundingly voted down in

190
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,200
Speaker 1: a referendum. Now the next generation of Indigenous leaders are

191
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,960
Speaker 1: sharing what they've learned. That story, plus all the nation's

192
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: best news, sport and politics, is live right now at

193
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,560
Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au