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Speaker 1: I focus a lot on tales of joy, both of

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Speaker 1: people and their efforts in nature, but just how cool

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Speaker 1: nature is, how funny nature is. There are so many

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Speaker 1: amazing stories of wildlife just doing the kookiest things. So

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Speaker 1: there is so much more to our world story than loss.

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Speaker 2: Did I welcome to better than Yesterday? Useful tools and

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Speaker 2: useful conversations to help make your day to day better

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Speaker 2: than yesterday? Every episode since twenty thirteen, Mine, johnsh Ginsberg,

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you here. Have a question for you when

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Speaker 2: you think about nature? What do you think? How do

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Speaker 2: you feel? Do you think of nature as separate to yourself,

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Speaker 2: to us as humans? Is nature a problem we need

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Speaker 2: to solve? Is it a slowly unfolding tragedy? Do you

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Speaker 2: feel loss or guilt or heaviness? What do you think

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Speaker 2: about how beautiful it is to hear the song of

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Speaker 2: a magpie? How credible it is. There are so many

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Speaker 2: plants that nourish us in food, medicine, give us air

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Speaker 2: to breathe. Do you think of the people devoting their

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Speaker 2: lives to saving species and ecosystems? Do you feel joy,

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Speaker 2: a wonder or hope? I know in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 2: thinking about nature can be hard, it can also be delightful.

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Speaker 2: With my guest today, we're going to think and talk

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Speaker 2: about nature in all kinds of ways. My guest today

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Speaker 2: is Natalie Kiriaku, who is an environmentalist, social justice advocate

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Speaker 2: and social entrepreneur. She is the founder and the CEO

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Speaker 2: of My Green World. She was awarded the Medal of

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Speaker 2: the Order of Australia for her services to wildlife and

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Speaker 2: environmental conversation conservation well, they can't currently have one without

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Speaker 2: the other. In twenty eighteen. She's on a numerous board.

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Speaker 2: She's a bunch of plenty of organizations. She was named

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Speaker 2: as one of Australia's Top innovators by The Australian Newspaper

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Speaker 2: and has just written a book, Nature's Last Dance Tales

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Speaker 2: of Wonder in an Age of Extinction. Grim title, But

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Speaker 2: don't worry, it's funny because in many ways the book

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Speaker 2: is not what you think it is. I mean, for

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Speaker 2: a start, it mentions the sexually transmitted diseases of fish

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Speaker 2: way more than you may expect. Yeah, I know right,

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Speaker 2: you'll hear about that, as well as some of the

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Speaker 2: other incredible tales of nature that are featured in the book,

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Speaker 2: as well as so many other insights that nature can

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Speaker 2: offer us to help us solve the very problems that

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Speaker 2: we humans have created. We'll get to Natalie right after this.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to listening to the ads. Thanks for helping me

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Speaker 2: pay the bills. His Natalie Kiriaku, thank you for coming

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Speaker 2: in today.

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Speaker 1: Nat, thank you for having me. I'm good.

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Speaker 2: When did you first start to kind of have an

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Speaker 2: idea and get an interest in your part in the

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Speaker 2: world and the other organisms that exist so you can exist?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've always been I've always loved just

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Speaker 1: being outdoors and in nature, and grew up we used

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Speaker 1: to go camping. I used to go camping with my

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Speaker 1: mum and dad and sister every second weekend. So we

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Speaker 1: spent I spent a lot of times outdoors and a

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Speaker 1: lot of camping. Yeah. Even when we weren't going camping,

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Speaker 1: we my dad would picture a tent in the backyard

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Speaker 1: and hit camp with my sister and I and we

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Speaker 1: would pretend we were in a like a forest and yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I was outdoors and playing with frogs and always

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Speaker 1: loved nature. Yeah yeah, wow.

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Speaker 2: So when you're camping in I group from Queensland, so

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Speaker 2: bring your flannels it'll be cold, like you can actually

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Speaker 2: have to wear cold stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, it was cold, but really really fun.

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Speaker 1: And so I've just I've just always cared. I've just

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Speaker 1: always I've loved being outdoors. But also I just saw

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Speaker 1: species and animals and the environment as something that brings

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Speaker 1: us joy, but that they just have a right to

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Speaker 1: exist on their own. I don't want harm to come

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Speaker 1: to them. And also I know how dependent we all

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Speaker 1: are on each other, so and I just felt it

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Speaker 1: was an issue that people didn't really understand. And as

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Speaker 1: I got older, especially my late teenage years, the way

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Speaker 1: that we spoke about nature, I just thought it was

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Speaker 1: so odd to me that we talk about it as

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Speaker 1: something separate, or that if you talk about the environment,

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Speaker 1: you're a tree hugger. And I would just think, this

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Speaker 1: is the thing that allows you to breathe and to

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Speaker 1: eat and provides your medicine, and is you know, nothing

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Speaker 1: exists without nature. We do not exist without nature. So

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Speaker 1: I just thought it was a really odd way to

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Speaker 1: look at nature as something as oh, it's for you know,

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Speaker 1: the tree huggers that are divorced from reality. So I

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Speaker 1: just saw nature as being the source of everything, of joy,

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Speaker 1: and inspiration, and I wanted to find ways to, I guess,

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Speaker 1: help other people realize that.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a big leap at some point

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Speaker 2: where knowledge was able to be shared and pool were

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Speaker 2: able to understand that they could manipulate or at least

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Speaker 2: influence physics or at least even you know, the way

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Speaker 2: that cows got domesticated or dogs. Mykviudal was once a wolf,

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Speaker 2: all right, where people understood that, oh, we can we

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Speaker 2: can work within the parameters of this, and because we're

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Speaker 2: in control of it, we're better than it, and we're

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Speaker 2: separate from it, and we can do what we like

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Speaker 2: with it. We're only able to live because of our

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Speaker 2: control over this thing. And I guess we've always thought

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Speaker 2: that no matter what happens, we'll be able to control

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Speaker 2: our way out of it. But we're really starting, like

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Speaker 2: we started to really butt up against this and we

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Speaker 2: started to understand our impact on this. It was pretty

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Speaker 2: early in the Industrial Revolution, wasn't that we started realizing,

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Speaker 2: Hang on a second, here, this isn't good. This isn't good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not just everyone can't see because of a fog in London,

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Speaker 2: but we're changing animals.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean they had the great I

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Speaker 1: think it was the Great smog in London and where

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Speaker 1: I mean funeral service providers would basically just at capacity.

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Speaker 1: You had cows just dying in the paddic because the

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Speaker 1: smog and the pollution was so bad. And that was

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Speaker 1: when they said, okay, we might need to clean air

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Speaker 1: act here. And there is there is something here to

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Speaker 1: do with the link between industrialization and the environment and

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Speaker 1: that being linked to humanity. So yeah, we did make

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Speaker 1: the link quite early. We're still arguing over it today though.

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Speaker 2: Because we've set ourselves up where the incredible utility and

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Speaker 2: benefit for humanity in as far as food production and

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Speaker 2: healthcare and medicine and infant mortality and economic growth, and

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Speaker 2: you know, desperate people do desperate things. So if you're

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Speaker 2: economically doing okay, you've probably unlikely to go and start

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Speaker 2: a walk because it war was expensive. So the better

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Speaker 2: people got economic people started to become much more peaceful.

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Speaker 2: And so it's all been kind of tied together in

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Speaker 2: this thing that people are just afraid to unravel, afraid

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Speaker 2: to touch it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But what I find funny is when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the economy and politics, these are systems that are

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Speaker 1: meant to serve humanity, to ensure that humanity is healthy

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Speaker 1: and well and can eat and feed their families and

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Speaker 1: be happy. But those systems don't We're seeing that they

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Speaker 1: don't work for the majority of people. The economy is

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Speaker 1: not serving the majority of people. It's not factoring in

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Speaker 1: well being or happiness or joy or family or community

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Speaker 1: or nature or any of those things. And so, but

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Speaker 1: the way we talk about it is that this is irreversible,

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Speaker 1: this is just the way things are. And I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: we made these things. These are human constructs. We made

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Speaker 1: them up, and often they were made up to serve,

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Speaker 1: you know, a certain interest or a certain interest group.

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Speaker 1: And so I mean, maybe I'm naive, But the way

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Speaker 1: I think, if we made these things up, we can

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Speaker 1: remake them to better serve humanity and nature and to

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Speaker 1: prioritize things like well being and health and nature. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think these things are changeable. They are not. They're

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Speaker 1: not like laws of physics.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but the laws of physics part is the thing

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Speaker 2: that is waiting for everybody. Yes, thermodynamics doesn't give a

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Speaker 2: shit where your stock portfolio is. Yes, exactly, at some

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Speaker 2: point that beaks so properly that you bought with all

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Speaker 2: those fossil fuel stocks is going to go. Yeah, diving

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Speaker 2: into this book, I mean, even just researching to getting

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Speaker 2: to chat with you, I was kind of into I

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Speaker 2: was reflecting a little bit about it about upon a

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Speaker 2: few things. One, Yeah, it's a gigantic situation that we face,

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Speaker 2: gigantic problem we face. And two that there was a

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Speaker 2: time where I was so paralyzed by a climate anxiety

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Speaker 2: that I couldn't have even considered having this conversation. That

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Speaker 2: I would be absolutely unable to even look at the

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Speaker 2: cover of your book because I would have and I

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Speaker 2: would have been gone for a week. You I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: been able to talk to anybody. It would have been

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Speaker 2: fucked right. But through a lot of hard work, I

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Speaker 2: was able to get to a point now where I

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Speaker 2: can do it. And you know, I've got strategies around it.

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Speaker 2: Diving into this knowing what you already knew, but then

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Speaker 2: doing the research for this book. How did you keep

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Speaker 2: yourself upright? How did you keep yourself upright making this book?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry you went through that. I've

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Speaker 1: saw I felt.

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Speaker 2: I kind of feel everyone kind of has to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough. I focus a lot on tales of joy.

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Speaker 1: There is so much more to our world story than loss.

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Speaker 1: There are the most I mean, I think i live

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Speaker 1: in a bit of a bubble, but I'm surrounded by

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Speaker 1: some of the most remarkable people who are just going

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Speaker 1: to extraordinary lengths to protect nature. And there are so

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Speaker 1: many success stories that we don't hear about. I mean

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Speaker 1: humpback whales, the fact that we live in Sydney and

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Speaker 1: we can watch hump back whales who were bordering on

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Speaker 1: extinction in the eighties and are now rebounding. We have

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Speaker 1: the Californian condor. There's so many species that have been

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Speaker 1: brought back from the brink of extinction. There are so

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Speaker 1: many people, incredible people, twelve year old forest defenders who've

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Speaker 1: interviewed that are teaching adults about forests. I've met women

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Speaker 1: that have dangled themselves upside down inside a drain to

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Speaker 1: rescue lower keets. People that are just incredible, and so

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of inspiration and joy from them,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of hope from just being around them.

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Speaker 1: But also I think it's this balance. Yes, we need

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Speaker 1: to be aware of the severity of the situation, but

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Speaker 1: it is not over yet it is so not over.

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Speaker 1: There is still so much we can do, and nature

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Speaker 1: is incredibly resilient. We have seen nature being knocked around

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Speaker 1: a huge amount, but if we do give it time

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Speaker 1: and space to heal, it will it does regenerate. So

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Speaker 1: I just make sure that throughout this book it was

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Speaker 1: a combination of tales of joy and tragedy and humor.

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Speaker 1: So I have a sort of like a dark humor

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Speaker 1: throughout a lot of it, because that was how I

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Speaker 1: was able to talk about the ridiculousness of this sort

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Speaker 1: of these mass extinction events. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I was highlighting a lot of these incredible stories both

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Speaker 1: of people and their efforts in nature. But just how

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Speaker 1: cool nature is, how funny nature is. There are so

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Speaker 1: many amazing stories of wildlife just doing the kookiest things.

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Speaker 1: So that kept me going a lot finding trying to

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Speaker 1: find these fun, interesting stories that I felt could appeal

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Speaker 1: to anyone and everyone. And I also just it's important.

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Speaker 1: I cared, and I just I couldn't stop honestly writing

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Speaker 1: It was like it was one of the greatest joys

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Speaker 1: of my life. I loved it.

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Speaker 2: We live in an incredible country with so much wildlife

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Speaker 2: and people might think, why would you dangle upside down

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Speaker 2: in a storm trying to rescue a rambo LORICU loriate?

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Speaker 2: There's squillions of them, what's one more? But we just

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Speaker 2: don't know. And we still don't know. We don't know

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Speaker 2: which one is the keystone species. We don't know which one,

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Speaker 2: which extinction is going to be the one that sets

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Speaker 2: off the domino.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they all have a role. Oh, can I

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Speaker 1: tell you about the vultures.

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Speaker 2: I want to know about the vultures. Tell me about

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Speaker 2: the vultures.

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Speaker 1: So in India, their vulture population started plummeting and went

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Speaker 1: from basically, they lost ninety nine percent of their vulture

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Speaker 1: populations in a really rapid amount of time, and they

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Speaker 1: couldn't figure out why, and it was causing. Vultures are

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Speaker 1: basically nature's clean up crew, so you know, they feast

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Speaker 1: on the dead, the carcasses of animals, and they helped

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Speaker 1: mitigate any disease and so on. And so they ended

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Speaker 1: up figuring out that what had happened was the vets

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Speaker 1: were giving the cattle this particular type of medicine, and

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Speaker 1: when the vultures were eating the dead cows, it was

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Speaker 1: killing them from this medicine. So the Indian and Pakistani

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Speaker 1: governments quickly changed these laws and outlawed banned this particular drug.

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Speaker 1: So ve stopped using it immediately, and that was that

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Speaker 1: allowed the vulture populations to start to rebound, but an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary amount of damage was already done. So the loss

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Speaker 1: of vulture populations in India ended up resulting in the

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Speaker 1: deaths of half a million people and it costs something

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Speaker 1: like ten billion dollars to their economy.

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Speaker 2: How does a vulture dying kill a person.

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Speaker 1: Well, because they there was a build up of the dead.

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Speaker 1: Essentially the carcasses of the animals. Carcasses of animals would

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Speaker 1: spread and things like this spread diseases and so diseases

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Speaker 1: transmitted to humans it and also yeah, so it caused

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Speaker 1: as in India just because of the vulture. And then

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Speaker 1: you think, okay, one species, Well, what does the vulture

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Speaker 1: eat or what does the vulture rely on? It relies

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Speaker 1: on other species to exist, So then if that species,

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Speaker 1: so there's always it's a domino effect. One species that

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Speaker 1: might not seem important to us is actually incredibly important

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Speaker 1: in its own web. And so we never I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's same like chocolate industry that's dependent on one tiny

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Speaker 1: little insect called a midge that's a pollinator. All of

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Speaker 1: these and we don't think of these things, but we

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Speaker 1: already we have a perfect system in place. Nature was

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Speaker 1: a perfect system of balancing, a balancing system that allowed

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Speaker 1: humans to thrive, but that also meant that other species

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Speaker 1: have to thrive. You knock one domino and everything starts

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Speaker 1: to wobble.

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Speaker 2: It can be incredibly overwhelming once you start to consider

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Speaker 2: the pace of change and the steaks, once you really

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Speaker 2: start to think about what's at stake and what we

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Speaker 2: are f today. Yeah, let alone five, ten, twenty years

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Speaker 2: from now, it can absolutely flatter you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Yeah, when.

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Speaker 2: You get hit by something like that, I don't know, say, know,

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Speaker 2: you finish this interview, you open up your phone, and

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Speaker 2: you know, because you're you, your algorithm will feed you

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Speaker 2: something about you know, a chunk of ice the size

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Speaker 2: of the Southern Island of Fiji has slid off of

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Speaker 2: Greenland and nothing we can do about that. What do

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Speaker 2: you do with that information? What do you do in

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Speaker 2: that moment?

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Speaker 1: I mean it depends. Sometimes I just check out and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to engage with the news. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to engage at all, or I'll read some sort

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Speaker 1: of trashy book and try to find escapism. But then

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Speaker 1: other times I'll call my mentor, who's sort of become

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Speaker 1: like a best friend to me. She's just this person

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Speaker 1: that's worked in wildlife conservation for a long time, and

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Speaker 1: she's just a joy and help each other. Other times

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Speaker 1: I just go outside and see what we still have

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Speaker 1: we still have. I mean, we're so privileged to be

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Speaker 1: able to go outside and see the ocean, or walk

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Speaker 1: through a forest, see wildlife, to still breathe in relatively

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Speaker 1: clean air, all of those things we still have that,

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Speaker 1: so as long as we still have it, there's still

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Speaker 1: so much work to be done, and there's still so

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Speaker 1: much hope. And also talking to young people, I mean,

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Speaker 1: even when I go and talk at schools or how

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Speaker 1: to do workshops with kids, and the ideas that they

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Speaker 1: have to protect the future and solutions they have to

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Speaker 1: protect nature just remarkable. The way they think about things,

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Speaker 1: the curiosity they have, how they just see the world

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Speaker 1: so simply and clearly and accurately. That sort of thing

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Speaker 1: that lifts me up a lot.

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Speaker 2: How do you talk to young people kids about where

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Speaker 2: we are, what we face and what needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: With the kids I've worked with, I haven't really needed

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Speaker 1: to outline the problem as much as I would with adults.

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Speaker 1: Kids get it, Kids know that it's bad, They understand it.

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Speaker 1: It's adults that I actually have to make the case

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Speaker 1: too of why this is actually bad for them and

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Speaker 1: their children.

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Speaker 2: So what do you say to them?

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Speaker 1: Well, so it would depend on the person. So if

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Speaker 1: it was an adult, I would talk about that has

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Speaker 1: a house of let's talk about rising insurance costs, what

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Speaker 1: this act when we've got the insurance industry, major players

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Speaker 1: in the insurance industry saying we cannot continue to ensure

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Speaker 1: homes anymore because of the risks of nature destruction and

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Speaker 1: climate change. Or if it's a farmer, we can talk

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Speaker 1: about just an individual. Your chocolate is at risk, your

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Speaker 1: wine is at risk, your coffee is at risk. So

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Speaker 1: I try to depending on the audience, I would try

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Speaker 1: to find different stories or anecdotes that are relevant to

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Speaker 1: them that might make them care. Because with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, you say climate change and they just they

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Speaker 1: check out. They're not interested. They know it's bad, but

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Speaker 1: they're not interested. But that's why I think finding this

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Speaker 1: language of let's talk about specific story is not just

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Speaker 1: climate change. Let's talk about with kids. I'll talk about

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Speaker 1: whale pooh because whale pooh is essentially a climate change solution.

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Speaker 1: So we can talk about climate change not just as

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Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions, but let's talk about this whole system

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Speaker 1: where of wildlife and how different animals, different species are

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Speaker 1: all dependent on each other. And so I think it's

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Speaker 1: about finding the right stories that's going to resonate with

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Speaker 1: that particular person. And I don't think that in the

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Speaker 1: environmental movement we've been very good at that. At times

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Speaker 1: we've probably just said the same climate change is bad,

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Speaker 1: but not being able to find these stories that's going

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Speaker 1: to resonate with somebody like my ninety year old grandma

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Speaker 1: or a farmer or a teacher.

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Speaker 2: So tied to something that you like coffee, like my

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Speaker 2: coffee is a threat. Wait what h if I start

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Speaker 2: making changes that make more coffees? Okay, I'm saving whales,

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Speaker 2: I'm saving crill, but I care about the coffee. But

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Speaker 2: everything I do to change that will affect all of it.

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Speaker 2: So you really only have to care about one thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, absolutely, it's all connected. You can find a

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Speaker 1: connection anywhere. To me, it's not controversial, it's not political.

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Speaker 1: It's just we want to be able to swim in

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Speaker 1: our oceans, We want to be able to have clean air.

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Speaker 1: We are proud as Australians, be a proud of our

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Speaker 1: species like koalas that and even our snakes and reptiles

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Speaker 1: and people. People come to Australia because we have these wonders.

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Speaker 1: These are things that we are proud of that make

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Speaker 1: us Australia. Don't we want to keep them? Or do

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Speaker 1: we really want to be the nation that sent its

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Speaker 1: most iconic species, the koala, to extinction. So there is

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Speaker 1: a national pride in these things as well and a

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Speaker 1: community pride. It's whether do you like going forward driving?

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Speaker 1: Do you want national parks? Do you want to go hiking?

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Speaker 1: These are things that I think we all appreciate and

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Speaker 1: we are all dependent on.

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Speaker 2: To go outside, whatever sub you live in, to go

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Speaker 2: outside and I don't know, go for a walk for

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Speaker 2: ten minutes and notice how many different birds you saw?

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Speaker 2: Yeah right, just just look straight away. Oh, hang on

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Speaker 2: a second, I don't just see birds. There's that, there's that,

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Speaker 2: there's that, And then the next day like why is

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Speaker 2: it different? What is that doing differently today? And what's

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Speaker 2: that one doing differently today? And they do different things

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Speaker 2: at different times a day, like it or not. We

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Speaker 2: might live inside a house that's got you know, duck

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Speaker 2: the air conditioning and great internet, but we're not separate

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Speaker 2: from that. We're not separate from those things. Watching. There

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Speaker 2: was an open day at my son's school and there

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Speaker 2: were some kids from the older grades doing a dance

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the quadrangle thing there, and there's

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Speaker 2: this glorious, kind of really mature eucalypse growing along one

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Speaker 2: side of the school boundary, but they are so tall

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Speaker 2: they reach above the buildings. And the magpies magpies are

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Speaker 2: doing their dance and I'm like, ah, that's the baby,

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Speaker 2: that's the magpie baby making dance because I know it's

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Speaker 2: going to happen in six weeks from now. Walking my

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Speaker 2: son past those trees, it's swoopy time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a passage.

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Speaker 2: That is amazing, Like just yeah, I don't like getting

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Speaker 2: sweet by magpie. Nobody does, but it's pretty freaking amazing

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Speaker 2: that there is this creature, this tiny creature that is

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Speaker 2: smaller than one of my shoes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that I'm terrified and still sphere in the masses

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Speaker 1: in all of this, the.

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Speaker 2: Enemy of every cyclist, that is nature. And if for

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Speaker 2: some reason the magpies as swoopy as they are so

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Speaker 2: swoopy in my area, we have signs, there's council signs

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Speaker 2: in the park going don't hang out here and think

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be fine, because it isn't. So it's pretty swoopy.

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Speaker 2: There's big bag. Like if the magpies went away like

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Speaker 2: bad time, Yeah, that's a bad time.

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Speaker 1: We would miss them.

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Speaker 2: I would miss that sound of that warbling thing that

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Speaker 2: they were in the morning, because it's very happened to

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Speaker 2: the sound that make in the afternoon. Matures all around you.

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Speaker 2: And if you just take a second to be as

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Speaker 2: amazed by that as a video you just saw on

401
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Speaker 2: your phone of some doing do doing something dumb on

402
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Speaker 2: a jet ski, like, that's amazing. That's millions and millions

403
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Speaker 2: of you. That's a dinosaur. That's the last thing after

404
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,479
Speaker 2: that big comment hit. That's the last thing that remained

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Speaker 2: that is the direct descendant of the dinosaur getting ready

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Speaker 2: to attack you. Sick. Yeah, being at awe of it. Yeah,

407
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Speaker 2: try to find your pathway to be in awe of nature.

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Speaker 1: But also just imagine without without trees. I mean, these

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Speaker 1: are nature, they are shade cloths. Imagine just walking down

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Speaker 1: the street and not having a single tree, or not

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Speaker 1: being able to see whales or fish or go diving

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Speaker 1: or snorkeling or whatever you like to do there. If

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Speaker 1: the world was emptied of these things, imagine how terrible

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Speaker 1: it's sad that would like it just would be awful.

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Speaker 1: Aside from it, you know, we wouldn't be able to exist,

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Speaker 1: but if we did exist, it would just be a

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Speaker 1: huge loss. I couldn't even imagine a world like that.

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Speaker 2: In the book you wrote this line. And the harder

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Speaker 2: we work to avoid thinking about it, the bigger the

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Speaker 2: problems become. Can you tell me through that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think we have. It has been

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Speaker 1: decades when it comes to environmental issues. It's just been

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Speaker 1: decades of denial, inaction, obscuring information, misinformation, disinformation, and now

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Speaker 1: it has just been this issue has been persisting for

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Speaker 1: so long and we feel it now, we see it,

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Speaker 1: We see the impacts of climate change, and people are

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Speaker 1: checking out, they don't want to engage, and it is

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Speaker 1: causing a It's a big problem. We need everybody involved

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Speaker 1: It's not just individual life styleshifts, but we need a

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Speaker 1: cultural shift in the way that we think about the environment.

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Speaker 1: We need people active, and we need to if you

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Speaker 1: don't feel like engaging, it's about how do we find

433
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: ways that mean that we can engage with these issues

434
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: that don't completely unravel us. And if that means going

435
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: and finding sources of inspiration in nature, talking to your kids,

436
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: finding the stories of joy. But the more the longer

437
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: that we ignore it and stop being active, the worse

438
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: the problem gets, because it means that we are allowing

439
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: for the continuation of systems that are harming nature and

440
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: harming communities.

441
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: Just a moment away from Natalie to ask that if

442
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: this show is a value to you, please do consider

443
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: liking or subscribing, or following, or rating or reviewing or

444
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: telling a friend about this show, any and all of

445
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 2: the above. That is how we keep the lights on here.

446
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 2: This show is my full time job. It's how keep

447
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: the lights on the food and the fridge. If you

448
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: want to support me, it's put the work I do.

449
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 2: Please do that. You can buy the book that I

450
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: just wrote. You can buy both books actually, and also

451
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: come and see me in cam On tour. All the

452
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: links for that are in the show notes. We're back

453
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: with Natalie in just the moment. It's very difficult to

454
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: want to change anything about a life that I have

455
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: become used to when someone is telling me that a

456
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 2: part of what I'm doing is wrong and I'm a

457
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: bad person. But when I think about it, like, well,

458
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: hang on a second here, I can't choose to have

459
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: one hundred percent green power. I'd love to, but I

460
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: need to have a fridge, and I can't choose to

461
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: grow my own food because I don't have the land,

462
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: so I've got to buy food that comes from far away.

463
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: Your personal choices are not they are impactful. But because

464
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: I didn't put the right thing in my yellow bin

465
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I am the enemy of the people

466
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: putting the blame on the individual. Completely agree, is it's

467
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: the same shit, and it's unfortunate when you understand that

468
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: the people who started this stuff studied the way the

469
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: cigarette industry worked. Putting the blame on the individual on

470
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: the addict, Yeah, well mate, we just make the shit. Yes,

471
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: all right, it's up to them if they want to

472
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: buy it, you know, freedom.

473
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right, And that was its been it's sort

474
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: of this myth that's been perpetuated, but fossil fuel industry,

475
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: by tobacco industry, where even I mean, I think it

476
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: was you know, one of the major fossil fuel organizations

477
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: said basically tells people it's not our fault, it's your fault.

478
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: You're not recycling, right, this is why we have the problem.

479
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: And it's just it's a myth. And that's why my

480
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: when I talk to individuals, it would be like, that's

481
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: how can we activate individuals to create systemic change? And

482
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: does that mean through mobilizing them through political means, through

483
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: their voting, through engaging with ministers, by advocating for certain

484
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: bills that encourage transparency in politics. Or there's other communities,

485
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: so for example, a lot of indigenous communities are driving

486
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: the rights of nature movement where we're seeing you know,

487
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: whales being granted legally your personhood. So I like to

488
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: rather than yes, we should plant trees, yes we should recycle,

489
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: all fantastic, but we also need to be challenging the system,

490
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 1: these underlying systems because we are a product of this system.

491
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: I don't like the shaming and saying okay, it's because

492
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: this all this problem is because a thirteen year old

493
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: girl didn't recycle properly. It's just ridiculous.

494
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure in the amount of time we've spoken Tod

495
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: something's on extingct someway like as heartbreaking, heartbreaking to think of.

496
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: A friend of mine's been on the podcast Doctor Ayana

497
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Johnson. She wrote a book called All Week and

498
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,239
Speaker 2: Save and it was and it was definitely for me.

499
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 2: It was definitely an idea of like, if we talk

500
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: about everything we've lost, it's just only like only ever

501
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: talking about all the friends we know who've died. But

502
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: if we talk about all we can save, Yeah, it's

503
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: a different kind of conversation. If we think about all

504
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: we can save and what can I do right now

505
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: within my sphere of influence? Is that enough?

506
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: I think it's using your working to your strengths. If

507
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: you work at a cosmetics company and you're a buyer,

508
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: then you have control of it. You might have control

509
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: of your company's supply chain and the things that they're buying.

510
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: So can you pivot that company to working with businesses

511
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: that have a commitment to no deforestation or can you

512
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: work with more sustainable companies? If you're I don't know.

513
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: In media you have a loud voice and you speak

514
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: up about climate change. That's a powerful role to play

515
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: as well. If you're a teacher, can you work with

516
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: your school to ensure that there is Can you have

517
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: a school that sets up a forest school. There's forest

518
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: schools in Western Australia and basically kids can learn how

519
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: to build their own forest and they learn science in

520
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: the field, and so there's lots of things that you

521
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: can do. It's work. I think the most power comes

522
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: from working to your strengths, working within your industry. So

523
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: there is always something.

524
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: Say when we had the election in May, you ran

525
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: and you were elected, and you are now Prime Minister,

526
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: you're in charge of it all. What do you do?

527
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: I would commit to investing to at least two billion

528
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: dollars into nature and nature restoration because I would see

529
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: that as the we're talking. We don't have healthcare systems,

530
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: we don't have armies, we don't have anything without having

531
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: an environment to live on. So we have had economists

532
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: and environmentalists run the numbers and they've said how much

533
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: we need to just allow us to keep our natural

534
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: world and keep species and that figure sits at around

535
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: two billion a year. I would first and foremost commit

536
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: to that. I'd remove harmful subsidies we have. I mean,

537
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: some of our policies absurd. We spend billions of dollars

538
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: in subsidies for activities that just directly harm nature, that

539
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: extract from nature, that give very little back to this

540
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: only in economy. For example, subsidizing fossil fuels I would remove.

541
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: I would stop subsidizing corporations that have undue influence in

542
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: our government that don't deliver much in benefits to the

543
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: Australian public, and redirect those subsidies into activities that actually

544
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: support nature and communities. I would want to see more

545
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: community mobilization, where communities feel empowered to be active within

546
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: their local council and advocate for you know, whether it's

547
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: electric vehicle charging or better public transport or better national parks.

548
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: Would I would strengthen our environmental laws. I would ensure

549
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: that we have marine protected environments and environments that just

550
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: cannot be touched by mining or industrial activity. We need

551
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 1: these spaces not just for our species to regenerate, but

552
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: also for our joy and for our children's future. I mean,

553
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: there's there's quite a lot I would also, you know,

554
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: there's transparency laws we've got to get. There's a whole

555
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot, I've got a list.

556
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: There has been an argument, and we mentioned earlier that

557
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: you can't you can't protect nature and have economic prosperity

558
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: at the same time, which I don't believe is exactly true.

559
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you can't have an economy without nature.

560
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: That is, the economy is entirely dependent on nature. These

561
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: are even fossil fuels, so that they come from nature.

562
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: They are prehistoric creatures, that is what fossil fuels are.

563
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a strange way of framing it to think, oh, okay,

564
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: the economy is sort of predicated on this idea that

565
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: we can destroy nature. I think the economy in its

566
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: current form does not work. I don't think it works

567
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: for individuals, it doesn't work for the world, it doesn't

568
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: work for nature. If we start to experiment with how

569
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: we design economies, then I think there is a greater

570
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: opportunity to have better well being outcomes for humanity but

571
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: also for nature. So there's like, well, the New Zealand

572
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: started looking at well being economy countries like Bhutan, we're

573
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: looking instead of GDP having gross national happiness. So do

574
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: we find a new measure, a new way to measure

575
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: human health, happiness and livelihoods? Do we need I don't

576
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: think that GDP. I don't think that we can focus

577
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: on GDP alone. Our economy is fundamentally built on extraction,

578
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: constant extraction and consumption and production on this finite planet.

579
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: I think that needs to be rewired. So I think

580
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: the economy right like the economy in its current form

581
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: does not work and will not work. We can tweak

582
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: it or we can overhaul it. Either would be better

583
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: than the current I mean, I like what Costa Rica did?

584
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Costa Rica? Do you know the story of Costa Rica?

585
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: I want to know all about it.

586
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: It's so in nineteen get coffee from this sometimes. So

587
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine and Costa Rica, they just come

588
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: out of one of their bloodiest civil wars, and their leader,

589
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: who is known as John Pepem, he put a shovel

590
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: through the army headquarters in Costa Rica and said, from

591
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: this day on, I am abolishing our military and we

592
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: are now going to be a country of peace and nature.

593
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: And then he reinvested all of the money that was

594
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: going towards the military, towards education, peace processes, and the environment.

595
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: What happened over the subsequent decades was remarkable. In Costa Rica,

596
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: they had destroyed I think seventy percent of their rainforests,

597
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: They had quite low literacy rates, and they were a

598
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: country of quite a lot of violence. They ended up

599
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: becoming having the highest literacy rates in Costa Rica as

600
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: a result of these changes, literacy rates in Latin America. Well, yeah,

601
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: and they restored a huge amount of rainforest. So I

602
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: think they ended up restoring seventy percent of their rainforest

603
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: and the country is run on renewables now. They had

604
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: quite an extractive agricultural industry, and they shifted that by

605
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: giving payments for ecosystem services to farmers. So they incentivized

606
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: their farmers to protect their land and enhance biodiversity on

607
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: their land. And the country was completely transformed. It is

608
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: now known as a country of peace and nature, and

609
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: it meant not only transforming their education systems and political

610
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: systems and economic systems, but their cultural identity is now

611
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: tied with peace and nature. And Don Pepe, the leader

612
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: who put the travel through the building, he went on

613
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: to have two kids. One went on to become president.

614
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: And his daughter is named Christiana Figeris, and she's the powerhouse.

615
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: She's the architect of the UN the Paris Agreement, and

616
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: she also endorsed my book, which is amazing. Yeah, she's

617
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: the best. So it's this family of just environmental heroes

618
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: that have transformed the country. So I think there's, yeah,

619
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: really some really amazing stories of how the economy can be.

620
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: And maybe Christiana can answer this question better. But I'm

621
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 2: wondering can because I love the universal healthcare system we

622
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: have here and I think it's really important, but it

623
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 2: is somewhat dependent upon the tax base and the revenue

624
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: that we get for the way our economy is structured.

625
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 2: Is there a way to have appropriate healthcare for a

626
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 2: population when you do rework the economy like that.

627
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: If your economy is centered around human health outcomes and

628
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: well being outcomes and outcomes for nature, then of course,

629
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: because that is what that's something that you'd be measuring.

630
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I'm not an economist, so I

631
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: don't know how it works, but I know there's been

632
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: a huge amount of work done by particularly coming out

633
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: of London, but all over the world there is work

634
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: to rethink the economy. I've worked with quite a lot

635
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: of organizations and help them to become more sustainable and

636
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: try to make the case for rethinking the way that

637
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: their business is operating from a very extractive model. I mean,

638
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I just did a talk. I hope it resonated.

639
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: But I did a talk the other day and it

640
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: was about how nature cures cancer. Have you heard of

641
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: the Madagascar periwinkle? But the Madagascar What Madagascar periwinkle? It's

642
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: this little flower. It's become pink or white both anyway,

643
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: It's known as the Madagascar periwinkle, but we now know

644
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: it as something else because it is the cornerstone treatment

645
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: for childhood cancer, for Hodgkin's lymphoma and leukemia. And so

646
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: in the sixties, either of those diseases were a death

647
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: sentence for children. Now, thanks to this, the Madagascar periwinkle,

648
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: the extracts from that have formed the backbone of chemotherapy

649
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: treatment and cancer survival rates in children are ninety percent

650
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: in developed countries. And it is because of a flower.

651
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: And so just when I think about the healthcare industries,

652
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: this is built on not the economy, It is built

653
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 1: on nature. Seventy percent of cancer medications come from nature.

654
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: It is you know, malaria treatment, have all of it.

655
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: It is from these really remarkable discoveries in nature. So

656
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: I mean there's the un said the next cure to

657
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: cancer could be going extinct right now. So we have

658
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: a real interest in protecting nature. I mean, indigenous communities

659
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: have known this for a long time, that you know,

660
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: we are fundamentally tied to nature. They see nature as

661
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: mother and understand the healing properties of a lot of

662
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: these medicines. But I don't think we often don't make

663
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: that link. So where I find success is talking to

664
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: people and helping make the link of finding that a

665
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: harm moment of oh okay, yeah, no, it's not just

666
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: this abstract trees climate change thing. It is something that

667
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: has allowed my child to recover from cancer, or it

668
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: is something that has put food on our table. So yeah,

669
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: I think of that as success, just a mindset shift

670
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: that goes on in tiny little ways, as a bit

671
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: of a ripple effect where you see people thinking about

672
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: the environment more, or being conscious of their choices or

673
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: voting differently. I like that sort of impact that I'm

674
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: still naive. I guess I think that we can make

675
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: a small difference through the ripple effect that we have.

676
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: Look, we have to we seem to it's wild. We're

677
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: really resistant to change. For the most adaptive species on

678
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: the planet, humans, we're pretty resistant to change. And that

679
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: doesn't make a lot of sense, all right. We really

680
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: have any if any animal can figure out how to

681
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: live and alter their environment to make sure everything's okay.

682
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: It's us. Yeah, but for some reason, if we don't

683
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: come up with your idea, we don't like to do it. Yeah,

684
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: it's really dumb. You do write about one of my

685
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: favorite adaptive species. It's a It's a species that I

686
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: think is it's one of my heroes. They've been carved

687
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: on the front doors of temples in Egypt thousands of

688
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: years ago, the bloody white ibis. It's an amazing animal.

689
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 2: It's such an incredibly adaptive creature and I love it.

690
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. I love them too.

691
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: They're so underappreciated, and we, I mean, we didn't take

692
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: to naming them very kindly.

693
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: We call them the sacred ibis for a long.

694
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: Time, and then they've somehow became the bin chicken.

695
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: Or a trash turkey or a tip turkey.

696
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: They are incredible. So I actually interviewed a scientist who

697
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: is talking about ibis. But there was a so we

698
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: sort of have a love hate relationship with them because

699
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: there was this protest that was set up on Facebook

700
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: where they set up an event called the International Glare

701
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: at Ibis Day and so thousands of people went to

702
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: their parks to glare at ibises. But then they were

703
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: also voted the second most popular bird in Australia. And

704
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: so a lot of their natural habitat has been destroyed,

705
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: which meant they migrated into urban centers and became these

706
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: city dwelling dumpster divers. But they show us just how

707
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 1: remarkably certain species can adapt and now they are thriving

708
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: in cities. And I know a lot of people look

709
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: at that with scorn, but it's actually an incredible story

710
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: of survival for a species. And now they've even adapted

711
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: to be able to eat cane toads, which is obviously

712
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: cane toads are an invasive species. They can eat cane toads.

713
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: They've adapted to be able to survive the poison of

714
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: cane toads, so they are now potentially helping us rid

715
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: Australia of invasive species. So they're just remarkable.

716
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: That is astonishing.

717
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, how cool are they.

718
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 2: That in my lifetime there has been enough evolution, generational

719
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: kind of adaptation that an ibis can develop a resistance

720
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: to catoe points.

721
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and help us get rid of them.

722
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: Brilliant because they used to live in wetlands and we

723
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: drain them and put canal developments or an airport. Yeah,

724
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 2: and then they went away. They are they're very clever animals. Yeah,

725
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: they found a way to get through.

726
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's not because there's stories. I mean, there's

727
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: even cases, you know, after Chernobyl worst nuclear disaster of species,

728
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, years later rebounding and adapting, essentially adapting to

729
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: nuclear disaster. So there are some species that are incredibly resilient,

730
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: but it's just not the case for all of them.

731
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: So I think, I mean, I sometimes get asked, well,

732
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, if species like the ibis can survive and thrive,

733
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: why does it matter, Like why do we have to

734
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: watch what we're doing? Can't we just let them adapt?

735
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: But not all species adapt the koalas they're considered a

736
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: sort of specialist species, so they can only really survive

737
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: in a.

738
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: You say, Lakuala is just a bit special.

739
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: They are. Yeah, Koalas are a bit special, and they're

740
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: a bit slow, and they're not they're not going to

741
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: They're not like the bin chicken. They can't survive off

742
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 1: trash and.

743
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 2: They're they're in a pre chicken was doing high school

744
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: exams in grade sex. Koala is a year thirteen to

745
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 2: go to school. Yeah, I'll bring my kids.

746
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to keep.

747
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 2: Them, but probably not the cleverest dude.

748
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Just some species are generalist species, which means they

749
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: can survive in a whole different you know range, that

750
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: can sort of adapt their diet, and they're you know,

751
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: ecological niches, and the other species, like the koala, not

752
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: so much. They they're only happy when they're you know,

753
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: in a eucalypustry, in a particular habitat. You move them

754
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: into a city center and they just won't cope.

755
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: So what you're saying is for us to survive, humans

756
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: need to be just more like ibis adaptive.

757
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, we need to keep other We just we

758
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: need to keep other things alive. We just need to

759
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: stop killing things. It's really simple, and then the other

760
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: things stay alive. We stay alive.

761
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: Okay, let me, let's not be an ibis. I'm sure

762
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: the ibis is happy to be alive, but not thrilled

763
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: about drinking bing juice. Yeah, we have an opportunity to

764
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: adapt to the environment that we're in and not have

765
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: to drink bingjuice. Yes, because we I mean, if you've

766
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 2: seen the latest Blade run a film like, we can

767
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: get by on you know, maybe two plants. Is it fun?

768
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: No, I don't think we can. I don't think we

769
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: can get by on two plants.

770
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: It's not many. As a vegan celiac, I can tell

771
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: you with excellent Yeah, yeah, I can tell you can

772
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: get by on an okay amount of plants.

773
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: What if you want like some sort of medicinal.

774
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: Should have thought about that before we extinguished the Madagascin Firwinkle,

775
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: I should have thought about that. Sorry, fucking flower. I

776
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: don't care about flowers. Yeah, any medicine for my child.

777
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: He's very sick. I'm glad that you're out there talking

778
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 2: about it, thank you, because it's a lot.

779
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: I mean, that's there's lots of funny story like Barnaby

780
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: Joyce he tried to give herpes to fish, So I

781
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: can talk about that in my book, Like there's so

782
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: many funny stories with nature.

783
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: You know what that is amazing because it's not even

784
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: the most outrageous Barnaby Joyce story.

785
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: I know, yeah made headlines.

786
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah it's not. I don't think it's even the top ten.

787
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: No, barely made headlines. Like he's not even remembered for it.

788
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 2: I can't let you go without talk to me. Barnaby

789
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 2: Joyce came up with giving her piece to fish.

790
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, why so he announced that he wanted to give

791
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: herpi to fish. We don't know if he wanted to

792
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: directly transmit.

793
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 2: I doubt I can't even finish that. We can't know.

794
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: We can't know for sure, Nord.

795
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: We assume so carp.

796
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: It was carp freshwater fish invasive and freaking havoc and

797
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: their ecosystems impacting farmers and so on, and so Barnaby

798
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: Joyce learned that apparently carp can't survive herpes.

799
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: And so whoever whichever scientists found that out up there

800
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: with the first person who tried.

801
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: Milk, I know, how did they even come up with

802
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: we're going to explore whether what herpes does to carp.

803
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: So anyway, he got up in parliament and he said

804
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: that he wanted to give herpes to cup and he

805
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: backed it with money, put fifteen million dollars behind it.

806
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: So what happens is when you give herpes to carp,

807
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: the carp have orgies. And so his thinking was that

808
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: if he gives herpes to one carp, they have a

809
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: massive orgy, everyone gets herpies and then they all die.

810
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: But he couldn't even get that right. And so I

811
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 1: asked the question of the book. If Barnaby Joyce can't

812
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: give herpes to a fish, what hope do we have

813
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: for mobilizing political action for nature. Because still carp do

814
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: not have herpes, and their populations have grown since his announcement.

815
00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: But some genius lobbyist secured fifteen dollars funding for this.

816
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: We need to meet them and find out what their

817
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: secret is.

818
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: Those people are very good at what they do, and

819
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure if you're doing that job, you probably will

820
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: do most things for money. Yeah, just get enough money

821
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: behind the lobbyists and say go for it, dude, Rather

822
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: than herpies and fish, you get in there, get right

823
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: in there. As far as you know nature, business and

824
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: energy and fossil fuels off your pop Yeah, it's really

825
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: if you're going to invest money, pay the lobbyist.

826
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: But actually scientists thought that they liked the idea Barnaby Joyce,

827
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: that they really supported it, So it could have been

828
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: if that came to fruition, or if that was successful,

829
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: that would have been Barnaby Joyce's single most important and

830
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: effective decision as a politician.

831
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: If you need me, I'll be trying to find funding

832
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 2: to pay a person who is essentially a mercenary with morals,

833
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: a lobbyist, to go and do some shit that's good

834
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: for all of us, because I reckon that's probably the

835
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 2: most effective you said my time, second only to speaking

836
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 2: with you today.

837
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for.

838
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: That, was Natalie Kuriaku. You're not going to look at

839
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: carp the same ever again, especially the ones that are

840
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 2: in the pond out in the front of the restaurant.

841
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: You'd be like, ah, those are lips for kissing Ah.

842
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: Nature's Last Dance Tales of Wonder in an Age of Extinction.

843
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: You can buy that book wherever you buy books, including

844
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: where you buy my latest books called So What Now What?

845
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: Also Back After the Break is back out for sale.

846
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: They've reprinted a bunch of copies of my first book.

847
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: Both those things and tickets to any live gigs where

848
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 2: you can come along and see the show and buy

849
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: a book. All those things are in the show notes. Again,

850
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: if this episode was useful for you, please like it,

851
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 2: subscribe to it, follow it, rate it, review it, tell

852
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 2: the mate that'd be unreal. Thanks for listening to the show.

853
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: Thanks to add a bunch of for making the episode today.

854
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 2: See you on Monday.