1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: From the newsroom. 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 2: I used to come to. 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 3: Gooday there. I'm Andrew bucklow Well. Last year, two police 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 3: officers were murdered Desi Freeman, the man accused of pulling 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 3: the trigger, vanished six months later. There are still two 6 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 3: big unanswered questions, where is Desi and is he still alive. 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 3: In today's episode, Defmer, detective will reveal what he thinks 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 3: really happened to the alleged killer. On August twenty six, 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, ten police officers rocked up to a 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 3: property in Portpunker, a town about three hundred kilometers northeast 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: of Melbourne. They were there to execute a search warrant 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 3: in relation to a fifty six year old sovereign citizen 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 3: by the name of Desi Freeman, who allegedly ambushed the 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 3: officers when they tried to enter his house. 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 4: Two police officers have been shot dead and the third 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 4: has been injured. 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: At a rural property in northeast. 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: Victoria, Freeman fled into the bush, and despite the largest 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: manhunt in Australian history in a one million dollar reward, 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: he hasn't been seen since. Police have said there are 21 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 3: three possible scenarios. 22 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: The first scenario being that Freeman is dead in the 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: Mount Buffalo area, either via self harm or misadventure. The 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: second scenario that we're exploring is he's been able to 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: escape the era and he's being harbored by a personal people. 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: And the third scenario that we're exploring that he has 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: left the area and he's on the run. 28 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 3: On Monday this week, police announced the new targeted search 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 3: of the Mount Buffalo National Park. 30 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 5: This new five day search was sparked by new intelligence 31 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 5: that being a gunshot that was heard on the day 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 5: of the shooting that happened within the park. Police have 33 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 5: searched an area nearby before with. 34 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 3: No luck, but so far they yet to find any 35 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 3: trace of Desi Freeman, leaving families, police and the wider 36 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: community still waiting for answers. For more on this, I'm 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: joined by doctor Vincent Hurley, who was a police officer 38 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: for almost thirty years. He's now a lecturer at the 39 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: Department of Security Studies and Criminology at Macquarie University. Vince, 40 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 3: thanks for joining us in your opinion. How likely is 41 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: it that Desi Freeman is still alive? 42 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: I think it's highly unlikely for a number of reasons. 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: If he was still sufficient in the first place, and 44 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: that's pure speculation. Then his food and water would have 45 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: run out. He's been in when it was August, I 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: think late August. It was when it was snowing down there, 47 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: bitterly cold. Now's transition through to summer where it's extremely hot, 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: so he's had to battle climatic conditions of both extremes. Second, 49 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: he psychologically would be massively worn down and drained, because 50 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: initially he would have been full of adrenaline. He would 51 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: have been on the run, trying to invade the police. 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: And now if he's still alive, he would defined himself 53 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: in total isolation. But I think that psychologically, physically the 54 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: environment would have worn him down, and I think it's 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: highly unlikely that he's still alive. 56 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: What does history tell us about the likelihood of someone 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: surviving this long on the runner? As you just mentioned, 58 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 3: it can't be easy. 59 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: Now, look, it wouldn't be easy. The only other similar 60 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: ones we had Malcolm Naden in New South Wales back 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve. He was on the run for a 62 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: couple of years. 63 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 4: Well, he was once Australia's most wanted man, but today 64 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 4: psychopathic killer Malcolm Naden was put behind bars for life, 65 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 4: finally giving some relief to the loved ones of the 66 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 4: two women he's slaughtered. 67 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: But the difference between Malcolm Maiden and Does Freeman is 68 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: that Malcolm Madens had forty eight to seventy two hours 69 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: head start on the police before they knew who he was. Then, 70 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: if we take Friedman, the police were there at the 71 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: time that he allegedly murdered these individuals then fled into 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: the bush, so we didn't really have a head start. 73 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: Even if you look at Phillips I can't remember his 74 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Christian name. In New Zealand, living in a tent, he 75 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: invaded the police there for four years, but he had 76 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: his children to live for. Malcolm Maiden and Phillips in 77 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: New Zealand, those two other individuals had something to live for, 78 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: whereas he doesn't have something to live for, and the 79 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: will to live as a former hostage that goes down. 80 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: I can tell you the will to leave is a 81 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: really powerful driver for people to sustain them during harsh times. 82 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: But having said that, and without appearing to be contradictory, 83 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: I don't think his survivability would be great under these circumstances. 84 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: DESI does have a wife, and child. Though from what 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: I believe, would that give him some motivation to kind 86 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: of hang around. 87 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: That's a good question, Andrew. For the child, yes, possibly, 88 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: But for his wife, I believe he's estranged from his wife, 89 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 1: so that may not actually impact on him. 90 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 6: The wife of accused High Country cop killer Desi Freeman 91 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 6: has issued an extraordinary plea begging the wanted fugitive to 92 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 6: surrender to police. 93 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: But what overrides this is his political ideology of being 94 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: a sovereign citizen. So there is two different paths the 95 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: police would be considering. One is that he would not 96 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: want the police to take him alive. The other one 97 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: would be that as a sovereign suitizan, he would go 98 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: or try to prove to the police that he can 99 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: outwit them and stay out there as long as he 100 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 1: possibly can. Again, my gut feeling is that he's probably 101 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: dead somewhere, given the duration, given the massive search and 102 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: all the resources that have been thrown into down in Victoria. 103 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: I also think that the fact that New South Wales's 104 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: police have taken down a kadava dog to look for 105 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: a dead body is a pretty good indication that they 106 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: don't think he's alive. But I think they've even mentioned 107 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: that publicly, that they don't think he's alive. I'd also 108 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: tend to think that if he was being harbored by someone, 109 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: and I don't think that's the case, because be given 110 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: the nature of the crimes, pretty violent, and also the 111 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: fact that the police statuated the area, so no one's 112 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: going to run the risk of harboring someone who was 113 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: wanted for multiple offenses like murder. 114 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: For example, police believe there's a chance that Desi may 115 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: have taken his own life on the same day he 116 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: allegedly killed the two police officers. We'll investigate that theory 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: with Vince in just a moment. Welcome back. 118 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 6: Well. 119 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,239 Speaker 3: Earlier this week, please went public with a new theory 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: about Desi Freeman. 121 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 6: Officers are investigating if a single gun shot fired in 122 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 6: Bushland two hours after the murderous rampage was Freeman taking 123 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 6: his own life. 124 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: We do believe strongly that he is in this area deceased. 125 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 3: So, Vince, given what we know about Desi, do you 126 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 3: think it's likely that he would have shot those offices 127 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 3: and then taken his own life not long afterwards. 128 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, it sounds a bit of an odd anomaly. Yeah, 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: absolutely given his political life ideology. So there could be 130 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: two reasons for that. One could be, as you rightly say, 131 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: he's got to shot himself. The other one could be 132 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: that he actually discharged a shot intentionally to try and 133 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: engage the reaction of the police. So whilst the police 134 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: are looking for him, he knows the local area, the 135 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: police would be really mindful that he would be watching 136 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: the police the gunshot. On the surface, yes, it could 137 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: be that he's committed suicide, but on the other thing, 138 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: it could be you know, a red heiring to try 139 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: to engage how the police might try to locate him, 140 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: and if he's good at bushcraft, to work out a 141 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: plot or a strategy to work around that. 142 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: Two police officers were killed back in August. What does 143 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 3: an unresolved case like this due to the police involved, 144 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: especially you know when they had colleagues who were killed. 145 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, initially it would have been a shot and be 146 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: for members of the community, but the police culture is 147 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: really quite strong. There's a saying that trying to change 148 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: the police culture or penetrated is not trying to ben granite, 149 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: and that is true to a point. So the police 150 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: culture would actually sustain them. The families of the police 151 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: would have a really good understanding of the investigation process 152 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: and the police support around that family. So in many 153 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: ways it would it would be a shock to the police, 154 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: but in some ways it's also very reassuring to the 155 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: police because the families would know that the police are 156 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: doing everything within their capacity to try and bring him 157 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: out alive if they come across him, and that's what 158 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: they want. The police don't want revenge, The families don't 159 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: want revenge. The police want him to put him before 160 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: the courts to be held accountable for his actions, so 161 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: the families can say you're looking then saying why did 162 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: you do what you did? 163 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 3: So just to be clear that you think that the 164 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 3: families of the slain officers would prefer that Desi is 165 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 3: caught alive rather than he potentially took his own life 166 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 3: when he ran into the bush after attacking them. 167 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: Yep, that would prefer him alive absolutely. 168 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: If this search doesn't provide any answers, how do police 169 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: and those families move forward from here? 170 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: It will be an open book for a while. Going 171 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: back to the point I was making about them being 172 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: part of the police culture or the police family, they 173 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: will have a better. I'm not saying a easier, but 174 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: they will have a bit of a better understanding of 175 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: the limits of the police, and they will have a 176 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: more degree of tolerance than or understanding if they weren't 177 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: in the police. But I think that the longer it 178 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: goes out, just like any crime that goes unsolved, there 179 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: will be a degree of ancient listeners to try and 180 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: get it, get it resolved one way or the other. 181 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 3: Well, let's hope it does get resolved, just so that 182 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: those families get answers. Dr Vincent Hurley, thank you so 183 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: much for chattington News dot com dot au. 184 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: My pleasure. 185 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: Andrew, thanks so much, will of course keep you up 186 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: to date on the search for Desi Freeman at news 187 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 3: dot com at dot au in the meantime. Thank you 188 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 3: so much for listening to today's episode, and I'll chat 189 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 3: to you again next week. 190 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 5: Follow ull subscribe to from the newsroom wherever you get 191 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 5: your podcasts.