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Speaker 1: Approache production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanda. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam shann What makes a good detective? Each successful investigator

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Speaker 2: I've met has their own attributes, but common to all

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Speaker 2: is a quality of doggedness born of empathy for the

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Speaker 2: victims and their families.

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Speaker 1: Good human traits, I reckon.

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Speaker 2: You'd probably say there's also an independence of thought and action,

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Speaker 2: an ability to see evidentiary pathways and opportunities that others don't.

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Speaker 2: That independence can cause dramas for detectives with their colleagues,

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Speaker 2: but the good ones accept that's part of the job.

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Speaker 3: Janette Dawson's family says the sentencing of her husband Chris

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Speaker 3: Dawson marks the end of a very long, painful and

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Speaker 3: challenging journey.

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Speaker 2: My guest today, retired New South Wales detective Sergeant Damian Lunn,

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Speaker 2: had those qualities.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he's still got them. In a third tenty

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Speaker 1: five year career in the cops.

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Speaker 2: He's worked on all kinds of cold cases, the high

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Speaker 2: profile ones, mostly from the Lynette Dawson murder.

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Speaker 3: Chris Dawson will remain behind bars as a convicted wife

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Speaker 3: killer after a failed appeal.

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Speaker 1: The disappearance of Sheyl Grimmer.

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Speaker 3: The disappearance of three year old Cheryld Grimmer remains one

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Speaker 3: of Australia's longest running missing person cases.

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Speaker 2: And continues to work as a consultant to private investigations

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Speaker 2: by media, including the murder of twenty three year old

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Speaker 2: Rachel Childs on the New South Wales South Coast in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one.

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Speaker 3: Rachel Childs was brutally murdered on the New South Wales

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Speaker 3: South Coast in two thousand and one. Despite a major

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Speaker 3: homicide investigation, her killer has never been brought to justice.

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Speaker 2: He's also found time to enter the blood sport of

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Speaker 2: local government, currently serving as the Deputy Mayor of Ballina Shire.

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Speaker 2: He's supposed to be retired from a life of public service,

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Speaker 2: but I don't think he's ready to do that, and

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Speaker 2: maybe he just does. Know how I'm grateful the day

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Speaker 2: men's found the time to talk to me today, Can I.

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Speaker 1: Mate, Adam? How are you buddy? Very well? Am I

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Speaker 1: right that you simply can't retire?

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Speaker 4: Well, it goes like this, you know, after thirty five

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Speaker 4: years of serving the community and caring about the people

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Speaker 4: in my community and my work colleagues, that I suddenly

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Speaker 4: won Friday afternoon, I retire and the next day I've

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Speaker 4: stopped caring.

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Speaker 1: So it's not to go at all with me.

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Speaker 4: It's probably in my DNA to keep doing some sort

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Speaker 4: of community service and that's where I am today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but also getting involved in these cold case investigations

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Speaker 2: where you're working really as a detective again in these

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Speaker 2: podcasts and things that you get involved in. And I

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Speaker 2: heard you say once in another podcast that you didn't

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Speaker 2: quite know how to prepare for that day after stopping

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Speaker 2: working as a detective.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fair thing?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And I remember waking up on the Saturday morning after

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Speaker 4: a sort of a long day of farewelling, and I

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Speaker 4: woke up and I checked my phone. I've got a

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Speaker 4: mister a phone call overnight, because I normally used to

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Speaker 4: receive a phone call being a detective in charge of

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Speaker 4: me eight other investigators out there in the bush. And

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Speaker 4: I had to kick myself and go, what are you doing,

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Speaker 4: you idiot? You know she retired yesterday. No one wants

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Speaker 4: to know that you are today. So yeah, it was

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Speaker 4: a difficult process and I never really thought that would

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Speaker 4: ever occur to me, but it did.

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Speaker 1: It just happened, and to.

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Speaker 2: Me I think you always use this line about, you know,

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Speaker 2: good detectives are good humans, and I think that you've

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Speaker 2: always had that quality that you do care for the victims,

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Speaker 2: you care for the families, you care for closure, And

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Speaker 2: I wonder in your own psychological makeup how difficult it

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Speaker 2: is to walk away from these cases. And I think

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Speaker 2: that's something that all detectives have to get used to.

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Speaker 1: They can't solve everything.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's right, and the reality is that you can't

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Speaker 4: solve every one of them. But you know, the ones

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Speaker 4: that I did solve, I was just pleased with the

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Speaker 4: fact that I kept in contact with the families and

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Speaker 4: the victims of the victims. So I always say secondary

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Speaker 4: victims of the family members. And you know, it's about

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Speaker 4: really just having some common sense and trying then to

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Speaker 4: do your best, you know, and there's once you can't solve.

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Speaker 4: And I used to wear a lot of my cases

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Speaker 4: on my sleeve because if I lost the court matter,

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Speaker 4: it was like the worst day of my life. It

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Speaker 4: didn't mean it was a simple stealing in a store,

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Speaker 4: you know. I think I was pretty good convicting a

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Speaker 4: lot of people, and it is disappointing and you go

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Speaker 4: home and you're upset, and your mates and you fellow

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Speaker 4: detectives or police officers you worked on the matter with.

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Speaker 4: You know, you'll go for a beer afterwards and you

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Speaker 4: go through what they call a post book them where

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Speaker 4: you try and work out where things went wrong, but

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Speaker 4: also the good ones when we did get a conviction,

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Speaker 4: and we used to talk about what things were right

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Speaker 4: and good.

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Speaker 2: I first met you around the Ryl Grimmer case. She

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Speaker 2: disappeared in January twelve, nineteen seventy from fairy Meadow Beach.

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Speaker 2: You worked with Frank Sandertali on that case from twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 2: You got the case to the court and it looked

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Speaker 2: to be an overwhelming case, only to be derailed by

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Speaker 2: a retrospective piece of legislation. And I interviewed you with

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Speaker 2: Frank Sanbertali, and I've never heard a detective sob the

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Speaker 2: way Frank did. And it really came home to me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's a good Italian boy, very expressive. But

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Speaker 2: I think you feel the same way about your cases.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder do you have anybody in your life

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Speaker 2: who says, Demo, that's enough, step away.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't.

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Speaker 4: I just got people used to say to me, keep

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Speaker 4: going because with the Len Dawson homicide that was over

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Speaker 4: for twenty four years in total before he got to court.

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Speaker 4: It was never going to give up on that one,

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Speaker 4: and even little Eryl, you know, I just felt we

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Speaker 4: had a really good brief. There's no doubt in my

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Speaker 4: mind that the person that we charged, and his pseudonym

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Speaker 4: is Mercury, was the person responsible.

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Speaker 2: Yes, ofcause he came forward a year after the disappearance

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Speaker 2: of Cheryl and confessed in minute detail, very very good confession.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately there apparently wasn't an adult on the scene

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Speaker 2: at the time in this boy's home where he confessed.

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Speaker 2: And so when you came to lay the charge in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, you were stuck with this retrospective legislation. But

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Speaker 2: of course every murder troll, every case is prosecuted under

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Speaker 2: the law of the day, So you were rolling the

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Speaker 2: dice to some extent where you're not well.

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Speaker 4: I did some research and it wasn't required back in

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy one, when he came forward some sixteen months

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Speaker 4: after Little Cheryl hadn't vanished and suspected of being murdered,

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Speaker 4: that there wasn't a requirement for a juvenile to have

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Speaker 4: an adult present if he has been questioned by police

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Speaker 4: officers or a person in authority. So I was comfortable

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Speaker 4: with that, and also the fact that I had sent

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Speaker 4: the brief of evidence to our legal services department at

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Speaker 4: Police Headquarters of Paramatta to make sure that I got

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Speaker 4: everything right and to make sure that I had enough

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Speaker 4: evidence there to swear out of first instant warrant for

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Speaker 4: his arrest in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: And they came back and said, yes you do, but

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Speaker 1: you had.

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Speaker 2: This retrospective legislation that you had to contend with. And

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Speaker 2: as I say, every case has tried on the law

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Speaker 2: of the day, so was a part of you still doubtful?

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Speaker 2: Still there was an element of risk to this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: No, because this was only brought up in a matter

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Speaker 4: before the Supreme Court before Justice Hume that the defense

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Speaker 4: for the accused brought this up about the unfairness that

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Speaker 4: he wasn't back in the day compared to today's standards, where

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Speaker 4: an adult person or a person in an authority must

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Speaker 4: be present with the juvenile being questioned. And it wasn't

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Speaker 4: a consideration in my fact when I arrested him, because

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Speaker 4: the statute said back in that day that era that

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Speaker 4: an adult wasn't required, so I really had no and

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Speaker 4: he thought of that until it was raised by the

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Speaker 4: Crown Prosecutor, and then we realized that without that evidence

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Speaker 4: of the record of interview taken by Detective Sergeant Joe

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Speaker 4: Parrington early May nineteen seventy one, that we won't be

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Speaker 4: able to get over the line with this because all

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Speaker 4: our reinvestigation centered on that record of interview that he'd

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Speaker 4: undertaken freely and voluntarily and told investigators exactly what.

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Speaker 1: He did on that day.

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Speaker 4: And there is no doubt in my mind that you

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Speaker 4: would have had to have been there. It was because

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Speaker 4: of what you had said to those investigators. So it

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Speaker 4: didn't come into play with me, and so it was

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Speaker 4: raised by the Crown and we had a discussion about this,

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Speaker 4: and we both agreed then that this is going to

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Speaker 4: be thrown out the record of interview because of the

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Speaker 4: retrospective law about now having no adult person with this

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Speaker 4: young person being questioned, well, we couldn't get over it, really,

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Speaker 4: and I agreed with the Crown Prosecutor that we couldn't

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Speaker 4: possibly go any further, and as a result of that,

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Speaker 4: that matter was then basically if you want to tossed

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Speaker 4: out of court.

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Speaker 1: It must have been a crushing blow to you personally.

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Speaker 4: Oh And the biggest worrying for me was how do.

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Speaker 1: I tell a family this?

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Speaker 4: How do I tell a family about retrospective law, a

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Speaker 4: judgment made by a Supreme Court justice and they just

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Speaker 4: don't understand the legal technicalities of this judgment. And we

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Speaker 4: had to dumb it down to basically say, well, it's

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Speaker 4: the retrospective of law, and they couldn't understand it, and

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Speaker 4: it was hard to tell them. And I even felt

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Speaker 4: so sorry for them that afternoon, that Friday afternoon, when

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Speaker 4: they went through such a terrible time to know that

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Speaker 4: the person that they were confident I was going to

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Speaker 4: face trial was suddenly I was walking free out the

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Speaker 4: back doors of Darlau Court.

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Speaker 2: And the emotional stakes in that situation were so high

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Speaker 2: because Ricky Nash, Cheryl's brother, had carried the guilt and

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Speaker 2: he was the one that had failed Cheryl that day

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Speaker 2: at Very Meadow when he turned his back to go

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Speaker 2: back to his mother to say she wouldn't come out

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Speaker 2: of the shower blocks, and by the time they came back,

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Speaker 2: she'd been taken. And you were the one that revealed

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Speaker 2: to Ricky that there was this confession the family had

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Speaker 2: no idea about, and so the expectation must have been

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Speaker 2: so high. And I know how investigators in the past

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Speaker 2: have made the mistake of saying this is the slam dunk,

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Speaker 2: the laid down maas, we're going to get this bloke.

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Speaker 2: How difficult is it when you're dealing with a family

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Speaker 2: like that and someone like Ricky who has carried this

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Speaker 2: weight all those years.

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Speaker 4: Well, this matter had been investigated a number of occasions

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Speaker 4: under the Strikeforce vessel, and I just don't know why

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Speaker 4: the family weren't alerted to the fact that someone had

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Speaker 4: come forward back in late April nineteen seventy one to

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Speaker 4: say that they were responsible, but to tell them the

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Speaker 4: fact that we had this record of interview, and it

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Speaker 4: was chilling as to what the description of what this

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Speaker 4: person said he had done to Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: I really couldn't.

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Speaker 4: I had to give it to Ricky fairly straight, minus

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Speaker 4: the gory details, because I've also got a care for

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Speaker 4: the victim's family as well as to how they feel

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Speaker 4: and what they might do afterwards.

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Speaker 2: It's a difficult balancing act because as a detective you're

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Speaker 2: actually there for the crown, not the family. Of the victim.

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Speaker 2: You're actually there to prove the case for the crown.

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Speaker 2: How do you balance that with how much information you

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Speaker 2: tell the family to make sure you don't prejudice a

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Speaker 2: prosecution or create false hope.

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Speaker 4: Well that's a great question, mate, and I thank you

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Speaker 4: for asking that. It's a balanced decision, and it's tricky.

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Speaker 4: It stages to get the rapport from family and the trust.

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Speaker 4: You need to be transparent. In some regard, you can't

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Speaker 4: be one hundred percent transparent because if something was to

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Speaker 4: get out or said, etc. It may jeopardize the integrity

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Speaker 4: of the trial. So I was and Frank as well,

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Speaker 4: we were confident in this that we would give the

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Speaker 4: information if asked, but we wouldn't go into any further

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Speaker 4: detail about it, and we'd just say please just trust.

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Speaker 1: As we know what we're doing. All will be explained

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Speaker 1: in the end.

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Speaker 4: But if you asked me a hard question and I

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Speaker 4: won't be able to answer it, I'll tell you I

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Speaker 4: won't be able to answer it. And at the same time,

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Speaker 4: my lay is non aedges to the family but also

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Speaker 4: to the crown prosecuted, because he relies on my evidence

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Speaker 4: and my investigation. Or how Frank and my investigation to

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Speaker 4: get this matter proceeded through to trial.

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Speaker 2: And this certainly happened in the Lynette Dawson case as well,

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Speaker 2: where during the trial of Chris Dawson, you were put

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Speaker 2: under the spotlight where you were accused of not doing

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Speaker 2: certain things, certain interviews, or looking at certain piece of

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Speaker 2: information that might have been exculpatory of Chris Dawson. The

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Speaker 2: fact that there were witnesses that had allegedly seen Lynn

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Speaker 2: years after she was supposed to have disappeared, and you

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Speaker 2: were in the hot seat in that moment. So I

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Speaker 2: think those in the Supreme Court, it's a very unforgiving

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Speaker 2: atmosphere and you have to not be falling victim having

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Speaker 2: tunnel vision.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's right, you know, But also you know, there

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Speaker 4: seemed to be a lot of red herrings in the

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Speaker 4: doors and trial that I just thought that we needed

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Speaker 4: to get the information that I knew that was right,

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Speaker 4: and for someone to say I think I saw her

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Speaker 4: or whatever, I did chase those down, you know, to

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Speaker 4: some extent. There are others that throughout the investigation there

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Speaker 4: was it was stalled because I was running it basically

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Speaker 4: by myself for a large number of years. I had

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Speaker 4: no other assistance, and you know it's difficult. I knew

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Speaker 4: the people that needed to be spoken to. So when

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Speaker 4: the matter was formally requested by the unsold Hoomicit squad

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Speaker 4: to take the matter over, which I had been to

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Speaker 4: them on a number of occasions to ask them for

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Speaker 4: their assistance, and I was refused, I said to them, well,

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Speaker 4: there's a list of people that you need to speak with,

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Speaker 4: and I outlined that and eventually they were spoken to.

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Speaker 4: So I was confident that because they had a large

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Speaker 4: number of people working on it, you know, except one

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Speaker 4: copper like myself, So they had the team that could

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Speaker 4: do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And how frustrating is it you worked on it

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Speaker 2: for eighteen years, wasn't I believable? In Dawson case and

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Speaker 2: you've gone to the Director of Public Prosecutions a couple

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Speaker 2: of times. You know that Chris Dawson has done it,

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Speaker 2: but you can't get the DPP to mount a prosecution.

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Speaker 1: How frustrating was that?

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Speaker 4: I look a little bit more so frustrating out Well.

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Speaker 4: I had a meeting with the Director of Public Prosecutions,

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Speaker 4: the two icee and also the Police Minister's Chief of

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Speaker 4: Staff up in laden Quarry Towers in Sydney. And when

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Speaker 4: I was told by the DPP that you were insufficient

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Speaker 4: in evidence, and when I asked where I was insufficient,

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Speaker 4: they said to me, it's privileged information and we can't

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Speaker 4: tell you. And I couldn't believe that I was copying

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Speaker 4: that answer, because apparently the brief had been sent outside

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Speaker 4: of a chambers or DPP to a private entity to

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Speaker 4: look at it, and it came back and I need

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Speaker 4: to be told that, you know. When I asked where

295
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Speaker 4: I'm in sufficient, I was and told where I was.

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Speaker 4: And I found that just very, very difficult to believe.

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Speaker 4: But I think it was John Pickering, now I think

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Speaker 4: he's a district or judge, said he can keep going

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Speaker 4: at it, so I.

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Speaker 2: Did, well, I mean, how can that be an interest

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Speaker 2: of justice, because surely you should be told where you're

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Speaker 2: weak and you have to go.

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Speaker 1: Back and do more work.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, yes, you were really faced with back

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Speaker 2: then the absence of a body, and back in those

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Speaker 2: days that was a huge hurdle to get over, not

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Speaker 2: just in New South Wales but across the country.

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Speaker 1: Things are changing. Was that your major hurdle?

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Speaker 2: They never found Lynn, by the way, but was that

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Speaker 2: the major hurdle for you, you think, I think it

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Speaker 2: may have.

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Speaker 4: Been for the DPP, yes, but for me it wasn't

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Speaker 4: because you know, we had successful prosecutions with Bruce Burrell,

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Speaker 4: who was charged onto counts of murder and the bodies

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Speaker 4: have never been found, and I was confident that presidents

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Speaker 4: had been set in the Supreme Court, and I was

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Speaker 4: confident that I didn't need a body to prove that

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Speaker 4: Linn was murdered. We did all the fact checks of life,

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Speaker 4: a proof of life checks and found that she wasn't.

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Speaker 4: Basically some common sense tea that she's not alive. But

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Speaker 4: it may have been a sticking point for the DVP.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but they've never told me.

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Speaker 2: Is it difficult to I mean, you must have thought

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Speaker 2: Chris Dawson was guilty from the beginning, and I think

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Speaker 2: you've said that on numerous occasions.

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Speaker 1: How do you not lose your objectivity?

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Speaker 2: What checks and balances did you employ as an investigator

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Speaker 2: not to lose your way in those moments because of

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Speaker 2: a personal conviction of someone's guilt.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was aware that.

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Speaker 4: When I was investigating the early days of Len's disappearance

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Speaker 4: back in the late nineties, that there was some witnesses

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Speaker 4: coming forward about some inappropriate sexual behavior by Chris Dawson

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Speaker 4: and his twin brother and a number of other teachers

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Speaker 4: at Cromer High School. So I went to my superior,

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Speaker 4: Paul him and he's a lovely, dedicated former detective inspector

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Speaker 4: with an old school cop and I said, look, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to get sidetracked on these sexual assaults. Apparently

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Speaker 4: it's occurred, and he said, your main aim is to

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Speaker 4: find out what happened to Lend. He said, put that

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Speaker 4: in a report and that'll be dealt with later on.

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Speaker 4: And eventually, after all those years, that matter was dealt

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Speaker 4: within the court where Chrys Dawson was again found guilty

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Speaker 4: of carnal knowledge.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't want to know, look, go.

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Speaker 4: Out and lock him up for that, and go, well,

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Speaker 4: I can't get you on murder, I'll get you on

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Speaker 4: a sexual offense, and you know, because that would be

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Speaker 4: malicious prosecution in my book, So I had to keep

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Speaker 4: the focus on and I said, I wanted to know

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Speaker 4: what happened to Lyn Dawson and if I could try

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Speaker 4: and find her. But obviously that was always going to

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Speaker 4: be difficult because I believe from the first moment she

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Speaker 4: was murdered by her husband.

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Speaker 1: So I just kept kept going Chromer High School.

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Speaker 2: In fact, all those Northern Beaches, those schools, it was

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Speaker 2: a shock over had but Peter Wayne Scott was also

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Speaker 2: he was abusing boys. I mean, do you think we've

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Speaker 2: really seen the extent of the criminal wrongdoing by teachers

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Speaker 2: in that era at that school?

361
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Speaker 1: Oh? No, largely no, I would say.

362
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Speaker 4: But the difficulty part now would be having those former

363
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Speaker 4: students come forward and they will give it an opportunity

364
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Speaker 4: through that the Teacher's Pet podcast, I believe, and through

365
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Speaker 4: the media about what was going on to come forward,

366
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Speaker 4: and there was a strike force set up after Dawson

367
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Speaker 4: was convicted about those matters. And as I said, I'm

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Speaker 4: not privy to who came forward or what was said,

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Speaker 4: but I think some of them now they're middle aged

370
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Speaker 4: and they don't want to be identified because they've got

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Speaker 4: a young family, but telling the authorities what had happened,

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Speaker 4: but I don't want to go to court, and that's

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Speaker 4: what I think.

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Speaker 1: May have happened.

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Speaker 2: And I guess also the blazing publicity that went around

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Speaker 2: the world with the Teacher's Pet podcast possibly could have

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Speaker 2: scared off a few possible witnesses victims who might have

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Speaker 2: come forward but don't want to be in the glare

379
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Speaker 2: of publicity because taken them into the Supreme Court talking

380
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Speaker 2: about these really sensitive, embarrassing, damaging matters is no easy task.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And I agree with you, And you know

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Speaker 1: you can't drag them to court.

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Speaker 4: If they're happy to tell you what their stories were,

384
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Speaker 4: what they experienced, you may then be able to find

385
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Speaker 4: someone else if you might say, look, I'm happy to

386
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Speaker 4: give evidence, and I'm happy to go to court if required.

387
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Speaker 4: You can't make all of them go to court. I

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Speaker 4: understand that it is a sensitive area, and I'm certainly

389
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Speaker 4: not the one to demand someone go to court and

390
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Speaker 4: give evidence. If they're happy to tell me a story

391
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Speaker 4: and they don't want to enforce in each charges or

392
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Speaker 4: lay a complaint of any ledgs wrongdoing, I'm happy to

393
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Speaker 4: listen to them because that gives me, you know, also

394
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Speaker 4: a great perspective of who the person is. You know,

395
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Speaker 4: who I was investigating, and I'll go to when he

396
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Speaker 4: lenks to find out what that type of person, who

397
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Speaker 4: that person was, and what was his background, etc. So

398
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Speaker 4: some of it was handy, but eventually I think they

399
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Speaker 4: are in a large scale strike force on the sexual offenses,

400
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,001
Speaker 4: and it only resulted, I think, in Chris Dawson being

401
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,001
Speaker 4: charged with one offense.

402
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,041
Speaker 2: Well that's right, because I think without making allegations against

403
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 2: his twin brother Paul, his name did come up in

404
00:20:19,961 --> 00:20:24,561
Speaker 2: dispatches with fairly questionable, if not illegal behavior. Was that

405
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,441
Speaker 2: a missed opportunity to also charge Paul with some sort

406
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Speaker 2: of offenses out of this.

407
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Speaker 4: I would not have because I had a directive my

408
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 4: commander to find out what happened to Lin Dawson. I

409
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Speaker 4: think later on this may have been the subject with

410
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Speaker 4: the State Crime Command with their strikeforce that I think

411
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Speaker 4: was Strike pall Southward that they ran that.

412
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Speaker 1: But yet again I don't know.

413
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Speaker 4: What was said between the police and the alleged victims

414
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Speaker 4: of alleged offending by Paul Dawson. I don't certainly know,

415
00:20:51,761 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 4: but it was there a missed opportunity possibly, I don't know,

416
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 4: and I can't speak on behalf of that strike force.

417
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 2: It does seem like unfinished business, but I guess the

418
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Speaker 2: first order of unfinished business is where is Lynn Dawson's body.

419
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,561
Speaker 2: There was a lot of work put into the so

420
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Speaker 2: called soft soil right next to the house near the

421
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Speaker 2: pool and things like that.

422
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Speaker 1: What was your theory about what Dawson did with his wife.

423
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Speaker 4: Well, I've been to that properly on a number of occasions,

424
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Speaker 4: and I've excavated that property around the pool, and I

425
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Speaker 4: was fairly confident that she wasn't anywhere else in that

426
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Speaker 4: property then, because we were driving star pickets into the

427
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Speaker 4: ground and we couldn't get more than a couple of

428
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,441
Speaker 4: inches because of the rocky soil underneath. And so when

429
00:21:36,481 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 4: they went back there I think it was two eighteen

430
00:21:38,441 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 4: two nineteen, where they did a fairly large excavation, I

431
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,241
Speaker 4: wasn't hopeful of anything being found, to be honest with you,

432
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Speaker 4: because I was confident that it was a difficult place

433
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Speaker 4: to bury her body. And you know, at the same time,

434
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,001
Speaker 4: if the body is there, well the game's over. She

435
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 4: just didn't run away, so it'd be silly.

436
00:21:57,201 --> 00:21:58,001
Speaker 1: For her to be there.

437
00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 4: But there was a period I think of about twelve

438
00:22:00,481 --> 00:22:03,241
Speaker 4: hours at the Chris Dawson had an opportunity to dispose

439
00:22:03,321 --> 00:22:07,001
Speaker 4: of his wife's body where and no matter how or

440
00:22:07,041 --> 00:22:12,001
Speaker 4: where she is, I simply just don't know any theories. Well,

441
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:14,801
Speaker 4: I believe he was en route to Southwest Strokes that night,

442
00:22:14,921 --> 00:22:18,001
Speaker 4: the Saturday night after the Friday, the eighth of January,

443
00:22:18,041 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 4: when Lynn allegedly arrived home from a psychologist in relation

444
00:22:24,001 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 4: to some marriage guidance counseling with Chris. We know later

445
00:22:27,481 --> 00:22:29,961
Speaker 4: that night she did speak to her mother late that night,

446
00:22:30,001 --> 00:22:32,681
Speaker 4: around about nine and nine thirty ish, and from then

447
00:22:33,241 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 4: he goes to work the following morning, a Saturday morning,

448
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,481
Speaker 4: to the Northbridge Bars where he was a part time

449
00:22:39,521 --> 00:22:44,041
Speaker 4: life saver, and Lynn hadn't turned up. Allegedly she got

450
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,561
Speaker 4: on a bus to go to shopping somewhere in the

451
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 4: city and would have joined her husband and her mother

452
00:22:50,481 --> 00:22:52,961
Speaker 4: and the two kids at the pool for lunch, and

453
00:22:53,041 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 4: she never turned up. So I believe that somewhere between

454
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,321
Speaker 4: that afternoon and the following morning, she's been discarded somewhere,

455
00:23:01,321 --> 00:23:02,321
Speaker 4: and I just simply just.

456
00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:03,201
Speaker 1: Don't know it.

457
00:23:03,241 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 4: And I know that Chris Dawson went up to Southwest Frocks,

458
00:23:06,201 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 4: so my guess is anywhere between Bayview and Southwest Frocks.

459
00:23:11,321 --> 00:23:14,241
Speaker 2: I remember having a conversation with your former colleague Roger

460
00:23:14,281 --> 00:23:18,281
Speaker 2: calib Rogerson about Christopher Dale Flannery, and he said Flannery's

461
00:23:18,281 --> 00:23:20,481
Speaker 2: big mistake was that he was a barrier of bodies.

462
00:23:20,921 --> 00:23:21,881
Speaker 1: That was a big mistake.

463
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: Why would you bury your body where it can be

464
00:23:24,481 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: found when you've got the Pacific Ocean stretching out to

465
00:23:28,001 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: the horizon beyond. And of course that that's what mc

466
00:23:31,281 --> 00:23:33,721
Speaker 2: namara and Rogerson did with Jamie Gower, the drug dealer

467
00:23:33,721 --> 00:23:36,241
Speaker 2: that they killed. I mean, I think the same thing

468
00:23:36,281 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 2: of Dawson. That he had access to a boat, he

469
00:23:39,201 --> 00:23:41,721
Speaker 2: could have gone out at a cover of darkness or

470
00:23:41,801 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 2: without much suspicion being raised at that time and simply.

471
00:23:44,761 --> 00:23:48,121
Speaker 1: Disposed of her body. What do you think of that theory? Oh?

472
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,521
Speaker 4: Look, absolutely certainly she wasn't there at Bayview. So where

473
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,481
Speaker 4: is she? That's the big question. And you know we're

474
00:23:53,481 --> 00:23:56,001
Speaker 4: looking at a good twelve hour period, so you know,

475
00:23:56,241 --> 00:23:58,041
Speaker 4: there's a lot you can do in twelve hours. There's

476
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,201
Speaker 4: a lot long way you can drive within twelve hours

477
00:24:00,201 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: to dispose of a body somewhere remotely, orbit, in sea

478
00:24:03,681 --> 00:24:07,921
Speaker 4: or land. That's always going to be the question mark

479
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 4: where she is. And hopefully now with the new the legislation,

480
00:24:12,761 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 4: Lynn's Law called nobody no parole. If he's up for

481
00:24:15,961 --> 00:24:18,561
Speaker 4: parole at some stage and he's still alive and he

482
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,481
Speaker 4: wishes to re enter the community after saving his minimum

483
00:24:22,481 --> 00:24:24,961
Speaker 4: parole sentence, that he might be able to tell of

484
00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:27,481
Speaker 4: the authorities where she is so he can get out

485
00:24:27,961 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 4: before he dies in prison because all his avenues of

486
00:24:32,481 --> 00:24:35,161
Speaker 4: appeal are exhausted. He's there for the duration.

487
00:24:36,041 --> 00:24:38,281
Speaker 2: And I've seen this again and again where people in

488
00:24:38,281 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: that position still don't reveal the location of the body.

489
00:24:42,801 --> 00:24:44,761
Speaker 2: What do you think it is in the human psyche

490
00:24:44,961 --> 00:24:47,721
Speaker 2: of these killers that makes them do this?

491
00:24:48,681 --> 00:24:48,881
Speaker 1: Well?

492
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 4: I always believe that they've said they haven't done it

493
00:24:50,961 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 4: from day one to their loved ones, to their families,

494
00:24:53,681 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 4: and the families believe them. And then to suddenly turn

495
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 4: around at the last minute to say, well, yes I

496
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 4: did and I am responsible would be absolutely devastating for

497
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 4: defender's family and his loved ones and his partner maybe

498
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,041
Speaker 4: or partners or her partner, and they just they wouldn't

499
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 4: say it. I think they will take their secrets to

500
00:25:14,241 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 4: the grave.

501
00:25:15,521 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: Do you think it's all in the approach to the killer,

502
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,761
Speaker 2: that there is a way was skillfully de viewing understanding

503
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: human psychology, that there can be a breakthrough still that

504
00:25:24,801 --> 00:25:29,081
Speaker 2: a detective today could make that approach to Dawson, who

505
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: could then reveal.

506
00:25:31,441 --> 00:25:34,481
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, you know. I say to myself, never ever

507
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,801
Speaker 4: say no. Some of these killers, you know, after being

508
00:25:37,921 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 4: incarcerated for a period of time, they change, they find

509
00:25:42,001 --> 00:25:43,601
Speaker 4: God some of them do you know, And they think

510
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,241
Speaker 4: it's a good thing to tell the authorities. But if

511
00:25:46,241 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 4: you don't ask, you'll never know. So it's a good point.

512
00:25:49,521 --> 00:25:51,561
Speaker 4: I think they even went to see Neddie Smith at

513
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,281
Speaker 4: some state and also the Blangelo killer as well, prior

514
00:25:56,321 --> 00:25:59,721
Speaker 4: to him dying in hospital. And I think it will

515
00:25:59,761 --> 00:26:01,761
Speaker 4: take a skilled detective to go in there and gain

516
00:26:01,801 --> 00:26:04,521
Speaker 4: the rapport of that person and then over a number

517
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,801
Speaker 4: of visits and ask, you know, you don't go in

518
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: and demand, you get their rapport and then try and

519
00:26:10,801 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 4: find out through some skillful interviewing where that anybodies may be.

520
00:26:16,201 --> 00:26:18,161
Speaker 2: Yeah, that case, I was thinking I was actually Mary

521
00:26:18,201 --> 00:26:20,001
Speaker 2: Louise while I from one ninety three was killed by

522
00:26:20,041 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: Robert John Adams who posed as a policeman and abducted

523
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: her from a nightclub in North Sydney, had murdered her

524
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: and disposed of her body, and he wasn't convicted for

525
00:26:29,201 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: decades afterwards, and he never reveal where the body was

526
00:26:32,321 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: and I actually went to see him in Saysnock jail

527
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,961
Speaker 2: and I said to him, this is before the nobody

528
00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: no Parole law came out.

529
00:26:38,761 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: Lynn's Law, and I said, well, you're not that old.

530
00:26:42,281 --> 00:26:45,321
Speaker 2: You will get out of jail here, and you'll get

531
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: out sooner if you reveal where her body is. And

532
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,961
Speaker 2: he said, listen, I'm not going to tell you I

533
00:26:50,001 --> 00:26:51,961
Speaker 2: did or I didn't do it, but think of it

534
00:26:51,961 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: this way, that I met a woman after this happened.

535
00:26:55,481 --> 00:26:56,801
Speaker 1: I've had several kids with her.

536
00:26:57,321 --> 00:27:00,521
Speaker 2: They've grown up in the knowledge of my innocence, and

537
00:27:01,201 --> 00:27:04,761
Speaker 2: I've spent all their inheritance on trying to prove we've

538
00:27:04,801 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: lost You think I'm going to turn around now and

539
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,561
Speaker 2: say I did it, And I think that's to your point.

540
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I agree with you there, Adam, about those

541
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: comments he made about that murderer, and that's what I

542
00:27:16,281 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 4: say as well. I think they have denied it for

543
00:27:18,721 --> 00:27:21,761
Speaker 4: so long that they actually start believing their own lie

544
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,441
Speaker 4: and they cannot and will not admit to what they've done.

545
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,321
Speaker 1: Which brings us back to Mercury.

546
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,281
Speaker 2: Jeremy Buckingham, the new South Wales politician, has recently named

547
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,441
Speaker 2: him in the Parliament I'm not one hundred percent sure

548
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,041
Speaker 2: that's going to do much good.

549
00:27:38,521 --> 00:27:42,001
Speaker 1: It certainly puts pressure on him. You've met Mercury, you

550
00:27:42,041 --> 00:27:42,761
Speaker 1: interviewed him.

551
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: Do you think he's ever likely to reinstate his confession

552
00:27:47,001 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 2: that he did, in fact abduct and kill Sheryl Grimmer.

553
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 4: I don't believe we'll ever hear a peep out of

554
00:27:53,961 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: him again. He was in custody for nearly two years

555
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,121
Speaker 4: pro prior to going to the Supreme Court. Now, when

556
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 4: I arrested him back in two thousand and seventeen, I

557
00:28:03,241 --> 00:28:07,281
Speaker 4: had him in custody at Frankston Station whilst we finished

558
00:28:07,281 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 4: our interviews and while preparing some paperwork to go to

559
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 4: court for the extradition later that afternoon. So we had

560
00:28:12,961 --> 00:28:15,921
Speaker 4: a number of hours in the cell area. And now

561
00:28:16,041 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: this is the person I've just mind you. I've just

562
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,201
Speaker 4: told them when I'm flowing down there at the meeting

563
00:28:20,281 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 4: that you're under a rest for murder and I intend

564
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,201
Speaker 4: to charge you with murder today and I intend to

565
00:28:25,521 --> 00:28:27,801
Speaker 4: drag you back to New South Wales tomorrow morning to

566
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: face the court. And yet he goes into custody and

567
00:28:31,041 --> 00:28:33,961
Speaker 4: he said, coolest coul come any of the custodial staff

568
00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: have ever witnessed if someone was innocent, I would expect

569
00:28:38,481 --> 00:28:40,561
Speaker 4: them to be crawling up the wall and trying to

570
00:28:40,561 --> 00:28:43,961
Speaker 4: dig their way out and yeeling obscenity saying they're innocent.

571
00:28:44,361 --> 00:28:45,441
Speaker 1: None of this ever happened.

572
00:28:45,881 --> 00:28:49,001
Speaker 4: And I don't believe even after two years in custody,

573
00:28:49,521 --> 00:28:52,561
Speaker 4: he's never come after me for a wrongful arrest or

574
00:28:52,841 --> 00:28:56,681
Speaker 4: wrongfull incarceration, passed the magistrate and went to court, then

575
00:28:56,721 --> 00:28:58,681
Speaker 4: it was deemed enough evidence to go to a trial.

576
00:28:59,121 --> 00:29:03,401
Speaker 4: So he's never never said boo, And I don't know why.

577
00:29:03,641 --> 00:29:06,801
Speaker 4: And I don't believe all to make a noise because

578
00:29:07,241 --> 00:29:09,521
Speaker 4: if he makes a noise, then there'll be a meter

579
00:29:09,641 --> 00:29:13,361
Speaker 4: on top of him all my straightaway.

580
00:29:13,921 --> 00:29:18,201
Speaker 2: Because you've read that. We've all read the confessional, I guess,

581
00:29:18,201 --> 00:29:22,521
Speaker 2: and it's highly detailed. You corroborated key elements of it.

582
00:29:23,201 --> 00:29:25,001
Speaker 2: I don't think you've got any doubt that he was

583
00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:29,081
Speaker 2: the killer. And yet it seems like the cases at

584
00:29:29,121 --> 00:29:32,601
Speaker 2: a standstill, to the point where you interviewed another witness

585
00:29:33,041 --> 00:29:34,921
Speaker 2: who was a young boy at the time back in

586
00:29:35,001 --> 00:29:40,241
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, who believed he saw Mercury walking away from

587
00:29:40,321 --> 00:29:41,401
Speaker 2: the beach with.

588
00:29:41,801 --> 00:29:43,761
Speaker 1: Eryl in his arms.

589
00:29:44,481 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: He came forward and wanted to give evidence, and it

590
00:29:47,281 --> 00:29:51,121
Speaker 2: seems like New South Wales police are not interested in

591
00:29:51,161 --> 00:29:51,841
Speaker 2: his evidence.

592
00:29:52,961 --> 00:29:54,201
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was aware of that.

593
00:29:54,441 --> 00:29:58,361
Speaker 4: Information came from another podcast and I was given this

594
00:29:58,401 --> 00:30:02,601
Speaker 4: person's details. I rang him and I struck a rapport

595
00:30:02,641 --> 00:30:04,921
Speaker 4: with him, so much so that I said, look, would

596
00:30:04,921 --> 00:30:07,001
Speaker 4: you be willing? I said, I'm retired now. I said,

597
00:30:07,201 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: I can't come and see, but I'm retired. I do

598
00:30:09,361 --> 00:30:12,241
Speaker 4: know the officers in charge up at the Unsold Thomicide

599
00:30:12,241 --> 00:30:15,161
Speaker 4: Squad and some very good officers there, and so would

600
00:30:15,161 --> 00:30:18,681
Speaker 4: you be comfortable with if I provided your details to them?

601
00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:22,881
Speaker 4: And he said, yes, you would. So I contacted Detective

602
00:30:22,921 --> 00:30:25,601
Speaker 4: Chief Inspector Dave laidel Or from the Unsold Homicide Squad.

603
00:30:25,641 --> 00:30:29,401
Speaker 4: I know Dave from over many decades from working not

604
00:30:29,441 --> 00:30:32,641
Speaker 4: with him, but on cases etc. These particulars were taken

605
00:30:32,921 --> 00:30:36,281
Speaker 4: and I've only to find out recently that apparently not

606
00:30:36,281 --> 00:30:39,001
Speaker 4: even a statement's been taken from him. So I'm a

607
00:30:39,041 --> 00:30:41,201
Speaker 4: sort of a bit loss as to why that hasn't happened.

608
00:30:42,721 --> 00:30:45,161
Speaker 2: Well, I made some inquiries about it and was told

609
00:30:45,161 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: by a senior homicide detective that they were concerned that

610
00:30:48,321 --> 00:30:51,921
Speaker 2: with the absence of contemporaneous notes or anything to corroborate

611
00:30:52,401 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: his observations, he would get torn up in the box

612
00:30:56,201 --> 00:30:57,281
Speaker 2: in cross examination.

613
00:30:57,601 --> 00:30:58,961
Speaker 1: Put yourself back in the job.

614
00:30:59,601 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: Would you be confident to put a witness up in

615
00:31:02,521 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: such a critical case like this where there are was

616
00:31:05,241 --> 00:31:09,841
Speaker 2: it contemporaneous notes or some way of independently corroborating his testimony.

617
00:31:10,761 --> 00:31:12,521
Speaker 1: Well, that's really matter for the court.

618
00:31:12,561 --> 00:31:14,401
Speaker 4: That's a matter for the prosecutor and the defense to

619
00:31:14,441 --> 00:31:17,801
Speaker 4: make those decisions. And I don't believe pleage should be

620
00:31:17,841 --> 00:31:21,121
Speaker 4: start getting involved being a judged during executioner as to

621
00:31:21,201 --> 00:31:23,841
Speaker 4: what's going to happen in a trial. I just believe

622
00:31:23,841 --> 00:31:26,001
Speaker 4: if you're honest and telling the truth before a jury,

623
00:31:26,081 --> 00:31:28,081
Speaker 4: the jury will see it and they will hear it.

624
00:31:28,601 --> 00:31:30,921
Speaker 4: And I don't go into the fact that he might

625
00:31:30,921 --> 00:31:33,121
Speaker 4: get tailed up in the court as a witness. Well,

626
00:31:33,561 --> 00:31:36,121
Speaker 4: we don't know that, and don't make those presumptions. It

627
00:31:36,161 --> 00:31:39,121
Speaker 4: may happen, it may not happen. And yet a jury

628
00:31:39,201 --> 00:31:41,121
Speaker 4: might be able to see that look in the absence

629
00:31:41,121 --> 00:31:43,921
Speaker 4: of any notes, etc. Or what it might have been

630
00:31:43,921 --> 00:31:46,641
Speaker 4: associated what you saw or what you heard on the day.

631
00:31:47,241 --> 00:31:50,881
Speaker 4: Let it fully qualified jury and who are briefed according

632
00:31:51,001 --> 00:31:53,601
Speaker 4: by the Crown to understand that this is the person

633
00:31:53,681 --> 00:31:56,401
Speaker 4: that's going to come forward after many, many decades and

634
00:31:57,001 --> 00:32:00,161
Speaker 4: no there are no associated notes or etc.

635
00:32:00,641 --> 00:32:01,721
Speaker 1: But listen to his evidence.

636
00:32:01,841 --> 00:32:04,681
Speaker 4: And I don't want to go in to start saying, well,

637
00:32:04,761 --> 00:32:06,961
Speaker 4: watch should go into a trial and what should be

638
00:32:07,001 --> 00:32:10,161
Speaker 4: included and what should be excluded. That's not my decision.

639
00:32:10,201 --> 00:32:14,081
Speaker 4: I'm a seeker of truth, a secer of fact for

640
00:32:14,161 --> 00:32:17,361
Speaker 4: the prosecution and the courts, the seeker of the truth.

641
00:32:17,681 --> 00:32:20,721
Speaker 4: So I don't want my jobs to be anywhere mixed

642
00:32:20,801 --> 00:32:23,841
Speaker 4: up with the judicial process as to what a good

643
00:32:23,881 --> 00:32:25,121
Speaker 4: investigator should be doing.

644
00:32:25,761 --> 00:32:28,961
Speaker 2: So you're saying, leave the prosecuting to the prosecutor, and

645
00:32:29,241 --> 00:32:31,881
Speaker 2: don't second guess what's going to happen, don't.

646
00:32:31,721 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 4: Second guess what may happen, and have those concerns that

647
00:32:34,761 --> 00:32:37,361
Speaker 4: you're not going to take a statement from this person

648
00:32:37,401 --> 00:32:40,681
Speaker 4: because he'll get torn up in the witness box and

649
00:32:40,841 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 4: it'll look bad for us. That's a judicial process that

650
00:32:44,321 --> 00:32:46,161
Speaker 4: should be not even entering in the minds of a

651
00:32:46,161 --> 00:32:47,041
Speaker 4: good investigator.

652
00:32:48,921 --> 00:32:52,081
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what your former colleagues in this above

653
00:32:52,161 --> 00:32:55,401
Speaker 2: police must shudder when they hear your name came in

654
00:32:55,801 --> 00:32:58,361
Speaker 2: and there's nothing more X than an ex detective. Do

655
00:32:58,441 --> 00:33:01,041
Speaker 2: you have much contact with them these days? You don't

656
00:33:01,041 --> 00:33:03,361
Speaker 2: spare them. You certainly give them a good bollocking when

657
00:33:03,401 --> 00:33:06,761
Speaker 2: they need it well and rightly so.

658
00:33:07,001 --> 00:33:09,641
Speaker 4: And you know I've copped criticism, tell you, but I

659
00:33:09,721 --> 00:33:12,641
Speaker 4: recently had lunch with some wonderful gentleman and I'm sure

660
00:33:12,681 --> 00:33:14,401
Speaker 4: that they won't mind me if I mentioned their names.

661
00:33:14,601 --> 00:33:18,281
Speaker 4: Dennis Spray, in charge of the Kerry Wheeland investigation, and

662
00:33:18,401 --> 00:33:21,481
Speaker 4: she was kidnapped from paramatter. Pans Rupp, a former ex

663
00:33:21,521 --> 00:33:27,161
Speaker 4: homicide and good old hard style cop. Those sort of guys,

664
00:33:27,161 --> 00:33:30,121
Speaker 4: Mark Sweeney, who was a very very experienced crime scene examiner,

665
00:33:31,281 --> 00:33:33,761
Speaker 4: and Brenton Lee, Chief Inspector Brenton Lee who's an old

666
00:33:33,801 --> 00:33:37,881
Speaker 4: knock about detective as well. And these guys are all retired,

667
00:33:37,921 --> 00:33:40,081
Speaker 4: and they're the sort of guys that when I was

668
00:33:40,081 --> 00:33:41,361
Speaker 4: in the coops, that I looked up to.

669
00:33:42,921 --> 00:33:43,201
Speaker 1: Yeah.

670
00:33:43,281 --> 00:33:45,001
Speaker 2: I've spoken to a couple of those gents. I won't

671
00:33:45,001 --> 00:33:48,561
Speaker 2: specify which one about a particular case. And here's words

672
00:33:48,561 --> 00:33:50,881
Speaker 2: to me about getting involved, actually not getting involved in

673
00:33:51,161 --> 00:33:53,721
Speaker 2: a podcast about this word to say, I don't want

674
00:33:53,761 --> 00:33:55,841
Speaker 2: to get ahead of the plow. I don't want to

675
00:33:55,841 --> 00:33:57,361
Speaker 2: get it ahead of the machinery of guy. I don't

676
00:33:57,401 --> 00:33:59,801
Speaker 2: want to possibly prejudice an investigation.

677
00:34:00,361 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: Do you ever worry that you don't know what you

678
00:34:03,241 --> 00:34:03,561
Speaker 1: don't know?

679
00:34:03,601 --> 00:34:05,921
Speaker 2: There could be things going on with witnesses and things

680
00:34:05,921 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: that you could be obstructing.

681
00:34:09,361 --> 00:34:11,001
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and what I do.

682
00:34:11,321 --> 00:34:13,721
Speaker 4: With any of the producers I work with, I make

683
00:34:13,761 --> 00:34:16,361
Speaker 4: sure that we're not going onto a subject which may

684
00:34:16,401 --> 00:34:21,121
Speaker 4: be an active investigation. And I caution to that a

685
00:34:21,121 --> 00:34:23,521
Speaker 4: lot of the times, and to say I think we

686
00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:25,641
Speaker 4: should go back and do something different, or you know,

687
00:34:26,041 --> 00:34:27,881
Speaker 4: this is what you should do at the moment, leave

688
00:34:27,881 --> 00:34:30,441
Speaker 4: this alone to see what happens, because and I know

689
00:34:30,521 --> 00:34:32,641
Speaker 4: things might be happening in the background, And I certainly

690
00:34:32,641 --> 00:34:36,521
Speaker 4: don't want to jeopardize or ruin the integrity of a

691
00:34:36,561 --> 00:34:41,041
Speaker 4: current investigation that may be fruitful and in evidence at

692
00:34:41,081 --> 00:34:43,961
Speaker 4: the latter stage, which I don't want to interrupt or

693
00:34:44,281 --> 00:34:48,041
Speaker 4: give it a Hopefully that information will go through, and

694
00:34:48,281 --> 00:34:52,121
Speaker 4: I don't want to interrupt it and spoil what's happening.

695
00:34:52,921 --> 00:34:55,441
Speaker 2: As we speak today. The general Grammer case is at

696
00:34:55,481 --> 00:34:58,521
Speaker 2: a standstill. If they don't interview this witness and take

697
00:34:58,561 --> 00:35:01,201
Speaker 2: his evidence and try to go forward again. What happens

698
00:35:01,241 --> 00:35:04,281
Speaker 2: with that case, I mean there is a limit, like

699
00:35:04,321 --> 00:35:07,121
Speaker 2: you never give up, but you do eventually run out

700
00:35:07,161 --> 00:35:09,721
Speaker 2: of things to do. What can happen with this case

701
00:35:09,721 --> 00:35:10,721
Speaker 2: to take it forward again?

702
00:35:11,281 --> 00:35:14,081
Speaker 4: Well yet again, Adam, if someone was there that particular

703
00:35:14,201 --> 00:35:18,121
Speaker 4: day and have been afraid to come forward after despite

704
00:35:18,321 --> 00:35:21,961
Speaker 4: number of media requests and public statements about this, if

705
00:35:21,961 --> 00:35:24,721
Speaker 4: they now feel the strong enough now to come forward.

706
00:35:25,001 --> 00:35:27,401
Speaker 4: And it's about partnerships as well. So someone may have

707
00:35:27,481 --> 00:35:29,481
Speaker 4: been in a relationship with someone at the time that

708
00:35:30,121 --> 00:35:33,401
Speaker 4: may be very suspicious of their behavior and they're afraid

709
00:35:33,441 --> 00:35:36,001
Speaker 4: to speak up because of their loyalty to that person.

710
00:35:36,641 --> 00:35:39,201
Speaker 4: Now it may be the case today that those loyalties

711
00:35:39,281 --> 00:35:43,041
Speaker 4: no longer exist and they are now free to come

712
00:35:43,121 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 4: forward without fear of being harassed, etc.

713
00:35:45,761 --> 00:35:46,281
Speaker 1: Or threatened.

714
00:35:46,961 --> 00:35:49,401
Speaker 4: The perpetrator may have passed away, so there's no further

715
00:35:49,441 --> 00:35:52,721
Speaker 4: fear of anything. But I just hope that someone in

716
00:35:52,761 --> 00:35:55,641
Speaker 4: their mind and surely someone would know something about this

717
00:35:56,201 --> 00:36:00,121
Speaker 4: to come forward. And what happens then it regnites the investigation,

718
00:36:00,441 --> 00:36:02,441
Speaker 4: It gets a second win, and you start going back

719
00:36:02,481 --> 00:36:04,921
Speaker 4: into it again. And I just believe I think a

720
00:36:05,081 --> 00:36:07,841
Speaker 4: lot of these matters instead of just selling them they

721
00:36:07,841 --> 00:36:08,921
Speaker 4: are certainly solvable.

722
00:36:11,281 --> 00:36:14,561
Speaker 2: How much do the individual detectives who are still working

723
00:36:14,561 --> 00:36:18,481
Speaker 2: on these cases, how much capacity and independence do they have?

724
00:36:18,521 --> 00:36:21,761
Speaker 2: Do they just follow orders? Or can they get a

725
00:36:21,801 --> 00:36:24,521
Speaker 2: new piece of information and run with it? And you know,

726
00:36:24,641 --> 00:36:27,041
Speaker 2: to hell with any criticism they might get from their bosses,

727
00:36:28,321 --> 00:36:29,321
Speaker 2: I'll look for a start.

728
00:36:29,361 --> 00:36:31,601
Speaker 4: I think you normally have a very good relationship with

729
00:36:31,641 --> 00:36:35,161
Speaker 4: your superior it's normally a detective inspector, and you brief

730
00:36:35,201 --> 00:36:37,161
Speaker 4: them on a weekly basis, you know, not only in

731
00:36:37,201 --> 00:36:40,641
Speaker 4: a written form but also verbally, and you'll suggest some

732
00:36:40,721 --> 00:36:42,641
Speaker 4: ideas to them. And you know, obviously it's on a

733
00:36:42,681 --> 00:36:45,041
Speaker 4: budget as well, so we just can't go around, will

734
00:36:45,081 --> 00:36:47,321
Speaker 4: you nearly spending the public coin on trips away, etc.

735
00:36:48,121 --> 00:36:50,121
Speaker 4: But if I've got an avenue of a way that

736
00:36:50,361 --> 00:36:52,521
Speaker 4: I think the investigation should run, this is what I

737
00:36:53,121 --> 00:36:56,201
Speaker 4: would speak with my commander and then normally.

738
00:36:56,001 --> 00:36:57,721
Speaker 1: He would trust me to do what I'd want to do.

739
00:36:58,281 --> 00:37:00,361
Speaker 4: And that was a good thing about the DAWs In case,

740
00:37:00,401 --> 00:37:03,081
Speaker 4: because even though I had a couple of people say

741
00:37:03,081 --> 00:37:04,561
Speaker 4: to me you shouldn't be doing it, you know you've

742
00:37:04,601 --> 00:37:06,241
Speaker 4: moved on out from that area. Is not in our

743
00:37:06,281 --> 00:37:08,761
Speaker 4: patch anymore. Well, I said, well, it doesn't matter. I

744
00:37:08,881 --> 00:37:10,641
Speaker 4: joined the new so Well's plays force, not I didn't

745
00:37:10,721 --> 00:37:12,881
Speaker 4: join for the postcode. So that was sort of my

746
00:37:12,961 --> 00:37:16,001
Speaker 4: answer back that normally have a very good relationship and

747
00:37:16,521 --> 00:37:18,361
Speaker 4: atronic trust issue as well, and.

748
00:37:18,321 --> 00:37:20,241
Speaker 1: Your team as well. You listen to your team.

749
00:37:20,401 --> 00:37:23,121
Speaker 4: When you're running a team, you have a consensus as

750
00:37:23,121 --> 00:37:24,161
Speaker 4: to what's to be done.

751
00:37:25,161 --> 00:37:27,521
Speaker 2: In the case of Sheryl Grimmer, you got I think

752
00:37:27,521 --> 00:37:30,561
Speaker 2: it was thirty phone books worth of evidence and reviewed

753
00:37:30,561 --> 00:37:33,441
Speaker 2: it all and you found new material in there.

754
00:37:34,041 --> 00:37:37,921
Speaker 1: And I fear that without a continual.

755
00:37:37,401 --> 00:37:41,641
Speaker 2: Review process of these high profile cases, they will finally

756
00:37:41,681 --> 00:37:45,121
Speaker 2: get to a stage of being unsolvable. And I look

757
00:37:45,121 --> 00:37:47,961
Speaker 2: at some of the grains of that case. For instance,

758
00:37:48,641 --> 00:37:52,401
Speaker 2: that Mercury goes to mister Lecky who's running the boy's

759
00:37:52,481 --> 00:37:55,321
Speaker 2: home where he's staying, and says, I've got something to

760
00:37:55,361 --> 00:37:58,921
Speaker 2: tell you about this case. He's also with other boys

761
00:37:59,681 --> 00:38:02,641
Speaker 2: in that boy's home. I presume he's told other people.

762
00:38:03,601 --> 00:38:07,721
Speaker 2: Is there a case to go back to whatever records

763
00:38:07,761 --> 00:38:11,041
Speaker 2: might be available back in the day and say maybe

764
00:38:11,041 --> 00:38:15,161
Speaker 2: there was somebody in the room like mister Lecky when

765
00:38:15,721 --> 00:38:20,441
Speaker 2: this interview was done, or indeed other boys who that

766
00:38:20,561 --> 00:38:22,881
Speaker 2: Mercury may have told about the evidence back then.

767
00:38:23,841 --> 00:38:25,721
Speaker 1: Yes, well we did that back in the day.

768
00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:28,201
Speaker 4: We made a public appeal for any inmates or the

769
00:38:28,321 --> 00:38:31,481
Speaker 4: carry On Boys home up there at Gosford where Mercury

770
00:38:31,561 --> 00:38:33,121
Speaker 4: was incarcerated for a short time.

771
00:38:33,681 --> 00:38:35,561
Speaker 1: I tried to mister Lecky had passed away.

772
00:38:35,601 --> 00:38:37,001
Speaker 4: He would have been one hundred and ten I think

773
00:38:37,361 --> 00:38:40,481
Speaker 4: back in twenty sixteen, so he's obviously not around. But

774
00:38:40,561 --> 00:38:43,001
Speaker 4: I tried to find if he had any diaries around

775
00:38:43,481 --> 00:38:45,721
Speaker 4: to go through. And unfortunately, because of lapse of time,

776
00:38:45,801 --> 00:38:49,121
Speaker 4: those diaries don't exist any longer because a statute period

777
00:38:49,121 --> 00:38:51,921
Speaker 4: of gone and they could be destroyed. And also I

778
00:38:51,961 --> 00:38:54,281
Speaker 4: went to a detective Phil Finlay, who was a typist

779
00:38:54,361 --> 00:38:56,521
Speaker 4: on that record of interview with Mercury back in nineteen

780
00:38:56,521 --> 00:38:59,561
Speaker 4: seventy one, and I went through him closely. I said,

781
00:38:59,681 --> 00:39:01,241
Speaker 4: you know, was there anyone else in that room that

782
00:39:01,281 --> 00:39:03,081
Speaker 4: you can think? Obviously there was Danny, Joe and I.

783
00:39:03,241 --> 00:39:06,721
Speaker 4: So it was Joe Parrington and Phil Fiah. So we

784
00:39:06,801 --> 00:39:09,721
Speaker 4: did that groundwork and there was some success in relation

785
00:39:09,841 --> 00:39:13,121
Speaker 4: to the media release about the carry On inmates at

786
00:39:13,121 --> 00:39:15,881
Speaker 4: the time, and we did that for a particular reason.

787
00:39:15,921 --> 00:39:19,401
Speaker 4: We wanted to know some certain things about what media

788
00:39:19,521 --> 00:39:22,641
Speaker 4: articles were allowed into the center in that period that

789
00:39:22,761 --> 00:39:26,001
Speaker 4: Mercury was incarcerated, and that was it came in our

790
00:39:26,041 --> 00:39:28,121
Speaker 4: favor that there was basically nothing allowed in there.

791
00:39:29,161 --> 00:39:31,321
Speaker 1: So you've covered the avenues, then I wonder what else

792
00:39:31,321 --> 00:39:31,641
Speaker 1: has left.

793
00:39:31,681 --> 00:39:33,641
Speaker 2: I guess you don't know what you don't know, And

794
00:39:33,681 --> 00:39:35,561
Speaker 2: as you say, there could be someone out there still

795
00:39:35,801 --> 00:39:39,041
Speaker 2: who for whatever reason, has not revealed what they have

796
00:39:39,121 --> 00:39:39,561
Speaker 2: to offer.

797
00:39:40,481 --> 00:39:41,441
Speaker 1: Yeah, look that.

798
00:39:41,361 --> 00:39:43,361
Speaker 4: We're not talking about the carry on voice home was

799
00:39:43,401 --> 00:39:46,041
Speaker 4: about the fact that I wanted to know if any

800
00:39:46,161 --> 00:39:48,481
Speaker 4: newspapers were delivered there where the inmates could read, and

801
00:39:48,521 --> 00:39:50,881
Speaker 4: they had a story about Cheryl Grimmer, because if it,

802
00:39:51,001 --> 00:39:53,481
Speaker 4: in fact that Mercury made all it up because he'd

803
00:39:53,481 --> 00:39:57,281
Speaker 4: read it in a newspaper some sixteen months later, was

804
00:39:57,281 --> 00:40:00,081
Speaker 4: it still going around? So I did some also some

805
00:40:00,161 --> 00:40:02,361
Speaker 4: checks by the police mediaty in it to see what

806
00:40:02,441 --> 00:40:04,681
Speaker 4: was in the newspaper sixteen months later, and there's nothing

807
00:40:04,681 --> 00:40:08,241
Speaker 4: about Cherold Grim or whatsoever. So I know that from

808
00:40:08,281 --> 00:40:10,921
Speaker 4: these superintendents and some of the inmates that the boys

809
00:40:10,961 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 4: saime that they were not allowed to watch TV, only

810
00:40:14,041 --> 00:40:16,161
Speaker 4: one movie on a Sunday night if they were of

811
00:40:16,201 --> 00:40:19,081
Speaker 4: good behavior. So there was no TV in the dorms

812
00:40:19,161 --> 00:40:22,321
Speaker 4: or in the rooms with news. There's certainly nothing being

813
00:40:22,361 --> 00:40:25,281
Speaker 4: shown about Eryl Grimmer's disappearance from.

814
00:40:25,161 --> 00:40:27,361
Speaker 1: Ferry Meadow Beach the year before.

815
00:40:27,761 --> 00:40:30,481
Speaker 4: So I was confident that when Mercury was telling us,

816
00:40:30,641 --> 00:40:33,401
Speaker 4: as told Parrington and Finlay the story back in nineteen

817
00:40:33,441 --> 00:40:35,481
Speaker 4: seventy one, that we had the right person.

818
00:40:36,521 --> 00:40:41,201
Speaker 2: Yes, So I also fear that you can't repair mistakes

819
00:40:41,281 --> 00:40:45,001
Speaker 2: of the past, because the detectives back in the day

820
00:40:45,121 --> 00:40:48,241
Speaker 2: dismissed the confession, didn't they They didn't take it seriously.

821
00:40:48,241 --> 00:40:50,521
Speaker 1: They thought he was an attention seeker. They could have.

822
00:40:50,521 --> 00:40:53,041
Speaker 2: Gone back to him another year or two later, maybe

823
00:40:53,201 --> 00:40:55,521
Speaker 2: done some more work on that confession, but they didn't.

824
00:40:55,761 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 2: Is it possible to fix those sort of mistakes decades later?

825
00:41:00,641 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 4: Difficult now? But I know that the type of film.

826
00:41:03,001 --> 00:41:06,121
Speaker 4: Finlay was a detective constable first class us. He said

827
00:41:06,201 --> 00:41:08,641
Speaker 4: it was had it been his decision, he would have

828
00:41:08,721 --> 00:41:12,041
Speaker 4: charged him, but it wasn't. Joe was a sergeant, and

829
00:41:12,081 --> 00:41:14,521
Speaker 4: back in the seventies, a sergeant was like God. So

830
00:41:14,601 --> 00:41:17,641
Speaker 4: he either said no, it's either my way or the highway.

831
00:41:17,681 --> 00:41:21,921
Speaker 4: So it wasn't that was missed. But surprisingly enough, also

832
00:41:21,961 --> 00:41:24,801
Speaker 4: when the running sheet attached to that confession, Parrington said

833
00:41:24,801 --> 00:41:28,201
Speaker 4: that Mercury remained a person of interest, but there was

834
00:41:28,201 --> 00:41:29,721
Speaker 4: nothing ever done after that day.

835
00:41:30,801 --> 00:41:32,241
Speaker 2: I wonder when you wake up in the middle of

836
00:41:32,241 --> 00:41:35,801
Speaker 2: the night sometimes and think to yourself, what if, and

837
00:41:36,361 --> 00:41:39,921
Speaker 2: the thought crosses your mind that he gets away with murder,

838
00:41:40,521 --> 00:41:44,761
Speaker 2: then he leaves the state, he leaves a low profile

839
00:41:44,841 --> 00:41:47,681
Speaker 2: guy that he may have been involved in other offenses

840
00:41:48,561 --> 00:41:49,681
Speaker 2: down here in Victoria.

841
00:41:51,081 --> 00:41:52,601
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always concerning for me.

842
00:41:53,321 --> 00:41:55,281
Speaker 4: And even though I was a cop for a long

843
00:41:55,321 --> 00:41:58,081
Speaker 4: time and I'm not I'm retired now, it's only been

844
00:41:58,121 --> 00:42:00,441
Speaker 4: four years, but I still think about this, you know,

845
00:42:00,521 --> 00:42:03,841
Speaker 4: nearly every second day about did we do the right thing?

846
00:42:03,881 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 4: You know, what did we miss etc. And I don't

847
00:42:06,001 --> 00:42:09,201
Speaker 4: think we missed anything. I was confident that the investigation

848
00:42:09,401 --> 00:42:12,281
Speaker 4: was pretty well thorough. Took us over to the United

849
00:42:12,361 --> 00:42:15,201
Speaker 4: Kingdom to seek some manses from some witnesses on the

850
00:42:15,241 --> 00:42:18,721
Speaker 4: beach that day, so you know, we just didn't discard

851
00:42:18,801 --> 00:42:21,041
Speaker 4: some evidents that we found. We actually went and sort

852
00:42:21,081 --> 00:42:23,161
Speaker 4: it out and we found it, went over there and

853
00:42:23,361 --> 00:42:26,481
Speaker 4: got the statements required and it's just one of those

854
00:42:26,521 --> 00:42:28,521
Speaker 4: things that him. You know, there are people in this

855
00:42:28,601 --> 00:42:32,481
Speaker 4: community that have unsolved homicides in this community, and those offenders,

856
00:42:34,401 --> 00:42:36,321
Speaker 4: you know, they walk amongst us unfortunately.

857
00:42:37,001 --> 00:42:38,881
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think once you've been a detective, you're

858
00:42:38,881 --> 00:42:39,561
Speaker 2: always a detective.

859
00:42:39,601 --> 00:42:41,521
Speaker 1: Friend of mine, dadd here Victoria homicide detective.

860
00:42:41,681 --> 00:42:44,281
Speaker 2: He went to work as an undertaker and he's with

861
00:42:44,401 --> 00:42:47,321
Speaker 2: the family of a deceased person and then chatting about things,

862
00:42:47,321 --> 00:42:49,921
Speaker 2: and he says, I can't help with us. Do you

863
00:42:49,961 --> 00:42:55,041
Speaker 2: think it was natural causes? The family was aghast. He

864
00:42:55,081 --> 00:42:58,001
Speaker 2: didn't last long as a detective. Jemmy, if you're giving

865
00:42:58,001 --> 00:43:00,161
Speaker 2: free advice, and he said, well, you said balls police

866
00:43:00,241 --> 00:43:01,561
Speaker 2: about that case today.

867
00:43:01,321 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: What would it be?

868
00:43:03,281 --> 00:43:07,241
Speaker 4: Just re examine that record of interview. You go through

869
00:43:07,241 --> 00:43:09,481
Speaker 4: it like a fine tooth came, like I did in Frank,

870
00:43:09,681 --> 00:43:13,001
Speaker 4: and you'll see the glaring similarities of what happened that

871
00:43:13,041 --> 00:43:16,521
Speaker 4: particular day, and it will only lead to one one

872
00:43:16,561 --> 00:43:18,841
Speaker 4: suggestion and one thought that you had to be there

873
00:43:18,881 --> 00:43:21,121
Speaker 4: at the beach on that day to see what had

874
00:43:21,121 --> 00:43:24,401
Speaker 4: happened and for to be told that after forty nine

875
00:43:24,481 --> 00:43:27,641
Speaker 4: years later, that person told me in Frank in the

876
00:43:27,641 --> 00:43:31,321
Speaker 4: record of interview, I conducted with him at Frankston to say,

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00:43:31,441 --> 00:43:33,401
Speaker 4: I've never been to that beach in my life.

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00:43:34,281 --> 00:43:35,641
Speaker 1: It's not a bulls hit.

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00:43:36,361 --> 00:43:38,361
Speaker 2: Good advice. Let's hope they take it. Damian, thanks for

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00:43:38,361 --> 00:43:40,801
Speaker 2: your time today and thanks for your service. Thank you,

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00:43:40,841 --> 00:43:47,881
Speaker 2: Adam lovely always to talk to you. Let's Damien Lon,

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00:43:47,921 --> 00:43:51,841
Speaker 2: retired detective New South Wales Police. The Sheryl rumorcase is one.

883
00:43:51,881 --> 00:43:53,961
Speaker 2: I think that he's not going to go away, but

884
00:43:54,041 --> 00:43:56,041
Speaker 2: you have to keep working on it and never give up.

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00:43:56,121 --> 00:43:58,441
Speaker 2: That's the motto and this There's always someone out there

886
00:43:58,441 --> 00:44:00,841
Speaker 2: who knows something and maybe you can help on this

887
00:44:00,961 --> 00:44:03,801
Speaker 2: case or others. You can always call Crimes Stopers one

888
00:44:03,801 --> 00:44:06,881
Speaker 2: of under Triple three Trip zero. If you don't trust

889
00:44:06,881 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: the cops, you can always send me an email Adam

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00:44:08,481 --> 00:44:10,881
Speaker 2: Shand writer at gmail dot com. But don't sit on

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00:44:10,921 --> 00:44:14,521
Speaker 2: good information, please say something. Thanks for listening. This has

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00:44:14,561 --> 00:44:15,681
Speaker 2: been Adam Shan for Real Crime.

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00:44:25,521 --> 00:44:28,321
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.

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00:44:28,961 --> 00:44:32,121
Speaker 5: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what Podshape really

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00:44:32,161 --> 00:44:35,081
Speaker 5: cares about. Right now, there's thousands of people listening to

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00:44:35,121 --> 00:44:38,721
Speaker 5: this show and our other True Crimes and they're completely engaged.

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00:44:38,961 --> 00:44:41,761
Speaker 5: More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week.

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00:44:42,401 --> 00:44:45,281
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00:44:45,561 --> 00:44:47,561
Speaker 5: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,

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00:44:47,921 --> 00:44:51,361
Speaker 5: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.