1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Most people understand, actually, the depression is caused by depressing

2
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:10,600
Speaker 1: things happening. Okay, we know that, but psychiatry and the

3
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,200
Speaker 1: drug companies try to tell us no, no, no, depression

4
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:20,040
Speaker 1: is caused by something inside you called depressive disorder. Think

5
00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:35,159
Speaker 1: about it exactly, saying depression is caused by depression everyone.

6
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,400
Speaker 2: Before we get into this week's podcast, we've got a

7
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,479
Speaker 2: pretty cool announcement to make you are not able to

8
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,839
Speaker 2: connect with us. We have a pretty cool little widget

9
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 2: that's on the website. Just go to Poleteiler dot biz

10
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 2: Forward s Life podcast and near the top of the

11
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,600
Speaker 2: pigs you'll see a little icon that says seeing the

12
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 2: message to the Poulteeler podcast and so what we can

13
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 2: do with that you just click on that and then

14
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 2: you send us an audio message and we will get

15
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,800
Speaker 2: the audio message. Now, the first thing I want to

16
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,320
Speaker 2: do with using it is actually do and ask.

17
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,120
Speaker 3: Me anything episode.

18
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,280
Speaker 2: So all you gotta do if you got a question

19
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,920
Speaker 2: that we want me to cover is just go to

20
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,720
Speaker 2: Paul Taylor dot b is Z Forward Slash podcast and

21
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 2: on start the recording, and then send us a message

22
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 2: about what you would like me to talk about, and

23
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 2: they ask me anything and leave your name. We will

24
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,120
Speaker 2: call it out on the show. I'll get that all

25
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,319
Speaker 2: put together. And the other thing you can do is

26
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,199
Speaker 2: just leave us a message about what you like about

27
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,479
Speaker 2: the podcast, what you don't like about the podcast day

28
00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 2: I talk too much, all of that sort of stuff,

29
00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,119
Speaker 2: and just give us some feedback and we will use

30
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 2: that to continuously improve. So looking forward to hearing from you.

31
00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 4: Now I home the podcast, Professor John Reid, Welcome to

32
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 4: the podcast.

33
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for having me. Hi's old Blighty at the minute, Well,

34
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: like the rest of the world, pretty damn depressed, quite honestly. Yes,

35
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 1: then what happened in America last week, I think the

36
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,840
Speaker 1: world is standing I stand alone with it. So, since

37
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 1: you ask, it's incredibly, incredibly depressing and frightening.

38
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look the depressing bit.

39
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 4: You have kind of made a career out of studying

40
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:26,040
Speaker 4: in this area and publishing. You're at ridiculously prolific researcher

41
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 4: in this area. I think you've you've published well over

42
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,080
Speaker 4: two hundred publications in the top two percent of cited

43
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 4: scientists according to Stanford University and the chure of the

44
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 4: International Institute for Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal. So it is an

45
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,639
Speaker 4: honor for having you on this podcast because I think

46
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,079
Speaker 4: I want to really bring your your research to the

47
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,119
Speaker 4: attention of the general public, because I think what the

48
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 4: public think about depression and antidepressant medication often doesn't stack

49
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 4: up with the research are with what industry tells us.

50
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 4: So just give our listeners a bit of a sense

51
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,799
Speaker 4: of your career, how you got interested in this area,

52
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 4: when it was and just some of some of the

53
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,480
Speaker 4: highlights so far.

54
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,360
Speaker 1: Well, I think, if we're honest, a lot of people

55
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 1: who get into mental health, whether it's researchers or clinicians,

56
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 1: there are personal reasons. So a good day, my Adolessons

57
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 1: was trying to figure out why the rest of the

58
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 1: world was crazy, and a bad day was trying to

59
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 1: figure out why I was crazy. So that's why I

60
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 1: went into psychology. I thought an undergraduate degree in psychology

61
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: would give me some answer to that, but it didn't.

62
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, just personal interests growing up in

63
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 1: an averagely dysfunctional British family, and then later when I

64
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 1: got a job as a psychiatric nursing aid my very

65
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 1: first job in New York, I was always struck by

66
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 1: how if I could establish a relationship with people, and

67
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 1: that's the difficult bit. They would mostly not always, but

68
00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: mostly tell me awful things that had gone on in

69
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: their lives, which was their understanding of why they had

70
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: gone crazy.

71
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 3: Or suicidal or whatever.

72
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: So I was struck by that. But I was also

73
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: struck by how disinterested, uninterested most of the mental health

74
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,599
Speaker 1: staff were in their stories, and how when people tried

75
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: to talk about, say abuse that experienced or trauma, it

76
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 1: was either ignored or even worse, sort of dismissed as

77
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 1: a delusion symptom of their illness. Early on, I found

78
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 1: that quite fascinating and distressing, and so when many many

79
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: years later I came back into academia, that was that

80
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,039
Speaker 1: was the area that I mostly wanted to focus on

81
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 1: terms of research.

82
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,520
Speaker 4: That's interesting because my wife is currently doing a master's

83
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,920
Speaker 4: degree in counseling and the unit that she's on at

84
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,720
Speaker 4: the minute is about adverse childhood experiences how they actually

85
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,240
Speaker 4: fundamentally restructure or reshaped the brillan you know, impact on

86
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 4: certain areas of prefront or corse X, the amig dealer,

87
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 4: the hepocampus. And and since you just talk to our

88
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:09,040
Speaker 4: listeners about these adverse childhood experiences and what are they

89
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 4: doing to people's brains and how did they then contribute

90
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 4: to mental health problems like depression and psychosis in later life.

91
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think you need to know too much

92
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,800
Speaker 1: about what's going on in the brain, although that is

93
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 1: that is interesting, of course, but we can't understand quite

94
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 1: easily what's going on for kids as they grow up

95
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 1: if they've been through really bad experiences without worrying about

96
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 1: what specifically to the brain is doing what Because what happens,

97
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: of course is if enough bad things have happened to you,

98
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: that affects your ability to establish relationships in the future.

99
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,479
Speaker 1: So your attachment patterns are can be problematic, not for everybody,

100
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 1: we don't know.

101
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:49,280
Speaker 3: Over Jackti Price, we'll.

102
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 1: Come back to that. So attachment patterns can be difficult

103
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,240
Speaker 1: to trust, to trust people, so you keep people at

104
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 1: a distance, or sometimes you do the opposite, so you

105
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 1: get very clingy to people, which kind of puts people off.

106
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,560
Speaker 1: So it can cause difficulty in relationships. Are worse than that,

107
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: it can cause paranoia, of course, So if you've been

108
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,480
Speaker 1: done in enough times, it's really necessary and quite functional

109
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: to scan for the next time something bad has happened.

110
00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,760
Speaker 1: And you don't need you know, a lot of science

111
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: to understand that, nor do you need to know which

112
00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,720
Speaker 1: bit of the brain is operating. I'm black. People are

113
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 1: looking into that, and so it's all quite in a way,

114
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: quite common common sense that if you've been done in

115
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,039
Speaker 1: by other human beings, and your relationships with human beings

116
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 1: in the future are going to be are going to

117
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 1: be problematic, and you're also going to be Some people

118
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 1: end up sort of normalizing abuse, so they kind of

119
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,800
Speaker 1: in their adult relationships they kind of expect or what

120
00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 1: the very or even just tolerate really poor behavior from

121
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: other people because that's all they've never own. So in

122
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 1: all those different ways, it basically messes up our relationships

123
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,640
Speaker 1: in the future, and including our relationship with ourselves and

124
00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,960
Speaker 1: whether we're lovable person because a lot of people, if

125
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,120
Speaker 1: you're abused early enough, of course, in what the little

126
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,000
Speaker 1: kids do when something bad happens or even something good

127
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 1: at that age, we hold ourselves responsible. Anything good happens,

128
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,239
Speaker 1: I did it, Anything bad happens my fault. So people

129
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 1: grow up blaming themselves for what happened and get into

130
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,120
Speaker 1: this pattern of any time something bad hamps so it

131
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 1: must be me. I'm just a terrible person, so in

132
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: all those different ways, and that shows up in across

133
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,200
Speaker 1: the diagnostic spectrum depression, anxiety, eating disorders so called personality

134
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: sort of certainly my own area of psychosis, schizophrenia so

135
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 1: called across all those diagnostic categorist. Child abuses are massively

136
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 1: power and neglect is a massive power powerful predictor.

137
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 4: And does the ege at wish this occurs, this abuse

138
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 4: or neglect the edge at which it starts. Does that

139
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 4: have a big influence on whether or not are the

140
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 4: severity liadter in life? Or is it is it very individually?

141
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 1: Well, it is individualized, but we know and there are

142
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 1: several variables that predict whether or not child abuse and

143
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 1: neglect ends up the person ends up in bad shape

144
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,320
Speaker 1: later on, because not everybody does. And those predictors are

145
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 1: the one you just named early age of abuse and

146
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 1: there and the rest are quite obvious. So it's multiple

147
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: abuses versus one, because then you generalize that the whole

148
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 1: world is untrustable.

149
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that.

150
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,880
Speaker 1: And the third wipe this fourth and the third one

151
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: is whether it happens inside the family or outside the family, surprise, surprise,

152
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 1: And the fourth one is was anybody told at the time,

153
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 1: and was the abuse or neglect interrupted did somebody do

154
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 1: something about it? Because there's quite a difference between a

155
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 1: singular event, however awful it is, and say, happening outside

156
00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: the family. The family becomes aware of it, there's an

157
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,599
Speaker 1: intervention legally or whatever, and the child is believed, supported

158
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: and so forth. That's one end of the spectrum. At

159
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum, it's early inside the

160
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 1: family the child tried to tell somebody and then slapped

161
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 1: about perhaps for telling how dare you say such a

162
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: thing about Uncle Jimmy And they're punished for that. That

163
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,840
Speaker 1: combination can lead to severe psychosism. So yeah, there's a

164
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: range of variables there that predict whether someone ends up

165
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,840
Speaker 1: in bad shape or or not. And I could add

166
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 1: just on that issue of that last fourth variable there,

167
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 1: whether or not somebody is told and whether a person's belief.

168
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,600
Speaker 1: The average amount of time it takes somebody abused sexual abuse,

169
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 1: now I'm just specifically talking about sexual abuse. The old

170
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: amount of time takes them to tell another human being

171
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,040
Speaker 1: is fifteen to twenty years. What that's including people who

172
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,079
Speaker 1: tell at the time or are just oiled the abuses discovered,

173
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 1: So that's when we get into how our mental health

174
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,320
Speaker 1: services are dealing with it. It becomes quite an important

175
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 1: variable because very often sometimes I'm trying to tell a

176
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 1: mental health professional and they're the first person that has

177
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,719
Speaker 1: been told, so even fifteen twenty years later. So it

178
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 1: becomes very important how we respond in our mental health

179
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: services when somebody tries to tell us about abuse and

180
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,320
Speaker 1: neglect and so how do you let's dive into that.

181
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 4: How do the mental health services generally approach these problems?

182
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 3: Wow?

183
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 1: Sadly, with some exceptions, of course, not very well. We

184
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 1: have published two or three reviews of the research literature

185
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,160
Speaker 1: on how often people are asked about abuse and then

186
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 1: what the responses are when somebody does disclose. So the

187
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 1: first answer the first question. The last time we published

188
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 1: a review, I think we found about only about twenty

189
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: studies altogether ever done on that, and the range of people,

190
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 1: the range the percentage of people in different mental health

191
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: services who had ever been asked about abuse and neglect

192
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 1: in childhood ranged from twenty two percent to nought percent.

193
00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,720
Speaker 1: So we're not even asking most of the time. And

194
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 1: these are these studies all over the world, some in America,

195
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 1: some in Britain, some in Australia. So your average mental

196
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 1: health service still hasn't got to the point where it

197
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: thinks it's important to ask. Now, obviously there's exceptions to that,

198
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:24,640
Speaker 1: and that is getting better slowly over time, but that

199
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: level of not asking I in one of our last

200
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: papers we described that as collusion, collusion with abuse, because

201
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,679
Speaker 1: this is not the butcher's or the green grocers, or

202
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: a supermarket or the dentist. These are the services where

203
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 1: people go when they are distressed and experience in despair

204
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 1: and so forth, and for those services not to address

205
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,840
Speaker 1: this issue that is that is collusion.

206
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 4: That really begs the question, why the hell is it

207
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 4: not a standard protocol to ask straight up, like straight

208
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 4: off the back, Like so you go to the doctor,

209
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 4: they will ask about family history. That's you know, the

210
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,079
Speaker 4: first one of the first things that they do when

211
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,680
Speaker 4: they're investigating any physical illness is asking about family history

212
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 4: and all them. So, why on earth is this not forefront,

213
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 4: particularly when there's very strong evidence from multiple lines of research,

214
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,720
Speaker 4: right including your stuff including Brien changes. Why is it

215
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 4: not first line?

216
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,720
Speaker 1: The simple answers, because our mental health services are dominated

217
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 1: by our model and the medical model, which is largely unsubstantiated.

218
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 1: And the model basically says, if we become distressed or

219
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 1: suicidal or desperate or confused, there's something wrong with our

220
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 1: brains and our genes, and it's not really very much

221
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 1: to do with the with the environment. And that's you know,

222
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: you've got the chemical imbalance nonsense, which is completely refuted,

223
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,560
Speaker 1: it's just nonsense. You've got genetic theories about all of

224
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,920
Speaker 1: these different so called illnesses, there's very little evidence for that.

225
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,000
Speaker 1: And you've got a dominance of one profession, psychiatry, and

226
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: those folk are wor't very well intentioned, but they are

227
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,440
Speaker 1: medically trained. They are trained to think like real doctors.

228
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,040
Speaker 1: They look for symptoms, they count symptoms, they come up

229
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 1: with a label, and they pick a drug. That's largely

230
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,440
Speaker 1: what they do. They're not trained in the psychosocial causes

231
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: of distress. They're certainly not trained in how to relate

232
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 1: to people who are in a lot of distress and

233
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 1: how to enable them to tell their story. And then

234
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 1: the power the second part of the explanation. The answer

235
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,840
Speaker 1: to your question is that that model is rigorously and

236
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 1: effectively backed by the pharmaceutical industry.

237
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 4: I'm sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, the number of a number

238
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 4: of different forces.

239
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,600
Speaker 1: Yet and the professional psychiatry all over the world, but

240
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 1: particularly in the United States, has completely sold its soul

241
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: to the drug company. It's about twenty twenty five years ago.

242
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: So this is why. Because of this dominance of this ideology,

243
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,120
Speaker 1: and I think it is an ideology because there's very

244
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,960
Speaker 1: little evidence to support it. We repeatedly have people who

245
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,520
Speaker 1: have been done in in a hundred different ways. Can

246
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 1: be war, trauma, can be losses. There's losses losing their job,

247
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: a partner, or whatever, who need human support and human

248
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 1: understanding and a human solution to their difficulties. Who are

249
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: told there's something wrong with their brains, something wrong with

250
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,280
Speaker 1: their genes, they need medication, or even worse, they need

251
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 1: to lecture, shot and a. It doesn't work, and be

252
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: it's just not based in reality. So that's the simple

253
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 1: answer to a question.

254
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 4: So let's let's talk about diagnosis. I do want to

255
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 4: come back to the effectiveness of interventions that particularly antidepressants

256
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 4: and anti psychotics, but let's just talk because you've mentioned psychiatry.

257
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 4: For me, it's it's really interesting. I'm currently doing a

258
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 4: PhD in psychology or a bit of a background in

259
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,040
Speaker 4: neuroscience and physiology.

260
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 3: But what I find really.

261
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,880
Speaker 4: Interesting is looking at the DSM and there.

262
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,480
Speaker 3: Are now over a hundred.

263
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 4: Different conditions that people can be labeled, all these different labels,

264
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 4: none of which have a biological signature. Like when we

265
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,760
Speaker 4: look at physical diseases. Every physical disease has a biological

266
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,840
Speaker 4: signature that you can kneel down. And to my understanding,

267
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 4: not a single one of the psychiatric definitions or psycho

268
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 4: psychiatric conditions has a strong evidence based biological signature. So

269
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 4: I mean, how useful are these diagnoses and is there

270
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,680
Speaker 4: a strong keys for having over a hundred different ways

271
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 4: that people are not functioning?

272
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: Okay, how useful are the diagnoses? Well, some people find

273
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: them useful because when when you are in a lot

274
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: of distress and you're struggling to figure out what's going on,

275
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 1: it can be reassuring with someone in authority in a

276
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,120
Speaker 1: white coat perhaps to tell you that what's going on

277
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: is X disorder or WHY disorder. That can be reassuring

278
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 1: because it means the doctor knows what it is. The

279
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 1: last thing you want to hear when you go to

280
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,200
Speaker 1: a doctor and you tell them your symptoms the last

281
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 1: thing you want to hear is oh, my god, I

282
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 1: don't know what that is.

283
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it kind of validates how people feel.

284
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 3: Right.

285
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,560
Speaker 1: Yes, well it's an illusionary validation. We'll come back to that,

286
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 1: but it does make right. It also makes you feel

287
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 1: that you're not alone because other people have got this

288
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 1: X wide disorder, and it creates the belief that the

289
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 1: doctor probably knows what to do. So diagnosis can be

290
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,560
Speaker 1: quite reassuring in the short term. However, it is illusory

291
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 1: because these are not First of all, they're not scientific categories.

292
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: And as much as they don't have very much reliability

293
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 1: or validity, and reliability is the capacity for different experts

294
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 1: to a degree who's got what. So you can go

295
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,120
Speaker 1: to see ten different psychiatrists, you might get between seven

296
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: and eight different diagnoses, for instance, so consistency there. And

297
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 1: then the validity part is does the diagnosis predict the future?

298
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 1: Does it give you a prognosis? Does it predicting you

299
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,720
Speaker 1: know the outcome? No, it doesn't. So you get a diagnosis.

300
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,359
Speaker 1: Ten people getting a diagnosis of depression, and you go

301
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,639
Speaker 1: back three months later, there will be ten different outcomes

302
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 1: or trajectories. Send a psychostism schizophrenia or whatever. Does it

303
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,879
Speaker 1: predict what's going to help, well, treatment is going to help. No,

304
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It does predict what you're going to get,

305
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 1: but it doesn't predict what's going to help. So, and

306
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 1: there's some problems Apart from the lack of science, there's

307
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,840
Speaker 1: problems with the message that it gives because it creates

308
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 1: the illusion that there is along with this reassuring thing

309
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 1: that you know, yes, the doctor knows what it is,

310
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 1: creates an illusion that there's something wrong with you inside you.

311
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,719
Speaker 1: You have something wrong with your brain, or your genes

312
00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,200
Speaker 1: or something, or your hormones, or the problem is entirely

313
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 1: located in you. It's a fairly sort of If it's

314
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 1: something wrong with your brain, that suggests it's a fairly permanent,

315
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: ongoing problem. It's not the flu or something. It's something

316
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 1: different and malfunctioning about your brain. Which is a very

317
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: powerful message to tell somebody, although again some people can

318
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,359
Speaker 1: find that reassured and think, oh, well, that explains all

319
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 1: the things I've ever Yeah, now I get it. But

320
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 1: the problem is, there isn't anything wrong with a person's brain.

321
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 1: There is no chemical imbalance behind depression or anything else.

322
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: So that's that's an illusion as well.

323
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:32,120
Speaker 3: And this is.

324
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 1: Especially true of its children, but there's also true of us.

325
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:35,120
Speaker 4: It does.

326
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: It means you don't you haven't got a look in

327
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 1: the environment. So when was particularly worrying when children get

328
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: a psychiatric diagnosis, because then the first thing you should

329
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 1: look for when a child is distressed is what's going

330
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,199
Speaker 1: on at home, what's going on in the school, What

331
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,879
Speaker 1: help does that family need with little Johnny or little

332
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: Jane or what else. But now instead you've got the

333
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 1: foot there's something wrong with little Johnny, which is why

334
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: he can't sisk still at school, or why he's getting

335
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 1: very angry and shouting at the teachers or whatever. So

336
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: it's individualizes, it pathologizes. It creates the impression that's something

337
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 1: permanently wrong with you, and then we worry why somebody

338
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: doesn't get better five years later, so that they're unscientific,

339
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:20,439
Speaker 1: unhelpful overall, and they don't actually explain anything. I just

340
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 1: an example. Most people understand, actually the depression is caused

341
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: by depressing things happening. Okay, we know that, but psychiatry

342
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 1: and the drug companies try to tell us no, no, no,

343
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: depression is caused by something inside you called depressive disorder

344
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 1: and symptoms of this thing inside you. Depressive is depression.

345
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,679
Speaker 1: That's what's causing your depression. So you have and it

346
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: sounds sensible until you think about it. It's actually saying

347
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: depression is caused by depression. It's like it's backward circular logic.

348
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 1: And it quite attractive at one level for those reasons

349
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, it's kind of oh, now

350
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: I know why I'm so depressed. I'm one of those

351
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: people with that thing. Yeah, but people who are depressed

352
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten aren't going to get better

353
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 1: unless we help them deal with the things that are

354
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 1: depressing them. So it's a very powerful model. One of

355
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 1: it's attracted is it simplicity, because you haven't haven't got

356
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: to think anymore. Yeah, I'm going to try and figure

357
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: out what's going on in someone's life. And if you're

358
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: not very good at connecting to people's feelings when they're distressed,

359
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,360
Speaker 1: it's quite attractive to professionals who want to keep people

360
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 1: at a distance, get the emotions away, because it is

361
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 1: quite hard sitting with someone who's upset. Oh well, I

362
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: don't have to talk to them about what's going on

363
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 1: in their lives. I don't have to sit and wait

364
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: five ten minutes while they've finished crying. I just give

365
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: them a label and a pill and off they got.

366
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 4: Two points on nine. I think that's a really good point.

367
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 4: And there's a couple of things I want to come

368
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 4: back to that you said there. But I know somebody

369
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 4: who had mental health issues and went to see a psychiatrist,

370
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 4: and they said the psychiatrist sat on the other side

371
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 4: of the room and no rapport building, no relationship building,

372
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 4: just suddenly the other side of the room with a

373
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 4: clipboard and fired off a bunch of questions.

374
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 3: And then when you have this disorder and you need to.

375
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 4: Take this medication, right, And what we know in lots

376
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 4: of things in medicine, the warmth of the relationship between

377
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 4: the medical professional and the individual has a huge influence

378
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 4: on the outcome, right, And that's that human connection piece.

379
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 4: But what I wanted to come but oh sorry, The

380
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 4: other thing around as well is that I guess what

381
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 4: you're saying is it makes it easier to deal with

382
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 4: for the clinician. So rather than having to dive into

383
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 4: this complex web of someone's past and then help them

384
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 4: to try to make sense of the world.

385
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,199
Speaker 3: I just write a script and off they go.

386
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: Yes, so intellectually and emotionally, it's just far easier for

387
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: mental health professionals don't really want to get engaged with

388
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: people's emotions.

389
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a Harvard professor, Harvard psychiatrist. She's writ the

390
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 4: book called dopamin Nation. I forget her name, And she said,

391
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 4: did she realized that psychiatry was broken when she found

392
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 4: herself as soon as she started interacting with the patient

393
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 4: and the patient was talking in her head, she was going,

394
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 4: which box, am I going to put this person in

395
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 4: rather than actually listening to them, And that's when she

396
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 4: realized it was broken.

397
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to say something. I do want to

398
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: come back to you what you said about the human connection.

399
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: Then how we know that that's a major component. Just

400
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: just to reinforce what you said, Paul, because we have

401
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: conducted research big surveys of people on antidepressants and antipsychotics.

402
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: In those surveys, were asked them about the relationship they

403
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: had with the person who gave them the pill. Did

404
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 1: they feel understood? Did they And just rate the quality

405
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: of that relationship even if it was a ten minute

406
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: interaction and the quality, the perceived quality of the relationship

407
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: was a powerful predictor of whether the drugs work.

408
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, we know this from all the

409
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 4: placebo research that if there is a connection between medical

410
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: professional and the individual, the place effect goes through the roof.

411
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: Right, Absolutely true for a psychologists as well. It's not

412
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: just medical situation situations, and the Placibo effect or non

413
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: specific effects is huge.

414
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 4: I wanted to come back to you just mentioned some

415
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 4: statistics about the reliability and the validity and if you

416
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 4: could just go through this again through the lens of

417
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 4: would any other branch of science accept that level of

418
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 4: reliability and validity?

419
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: No, it does raise and charge.

420
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: Can you just put the for the listeners at home.

421
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: I think it's worthwhile double clipping because there's a lot

422
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 4: of lay people listening to this.

423
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 3: Just really dive into what that.

424
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 4: Reliability and validity actually means in the real world.

425
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: Okay, let me give you a very very specific example.

426
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: That field that I work in, nual psychosis. The major

427
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: diagnosis in that field, as everybody knows, is schizophrenia. So

428
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: the diagnostic and statistical manual says there are five types

429
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: of symptoms or schizophrenia. We don't really need things like hallucinations,

430
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: delusions and so forth. We don't need to go into

431
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: what they all are. And then it says you need

432
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: two of these five to get the diagnosis. All right, now,

433
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 1: most people can immediately figure out what's wrong with that.

434
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: It means that let's say say I've got hallucinations and

435
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: delusions and nothing else, and you, Paul, You've got let's say,

436
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: thought disorder and catatonia, two of the other symptoms, but

437
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: nothing else. So now you and I have nothing in common,

438
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: but we have the same diagnosis. Now, in science this

439
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 1: is called a disjunctive category, and in English it is

440
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: just utter bollocks. And the fact that our discipline claiming

441
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: to be science after one hundred years, this diagnosis has

442
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: been in the system for one hundred years. They have

443
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: redefined it and redefined it many many times, and the

444
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: best they can come up within the twenty first century

445
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: is a disjunctive category wherebio people can have the same

446
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: diagnosis with no symptoms in common. Is bizarre and it

447
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: speaks volumes about the scientific status of psychiatrists as a discipline.

448
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: Because you asked me, would this be tolerated in any

449
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: other discipline? And the answer is clearly no. But yet

450
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: you have psychiatrists, good people, intelligent people, who generally think

451
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: there is this thing called schizophrenia that causes hallucinations and delusions,

452
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: rather than it just being a word that describes people

453
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: who have those experiences. And despite the fact that people

454
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: can have that diagnosis without having anything in common, they

455
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: believe it exists, and they believe that they can tell

456
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: who's got it and who hasn't, and they can't. The

457
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: level of agreement between them is very, very low. And

458
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: this wouldn't matter except that this debilitating diagnosis marks people,

459
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: often for life, and it really is time we stopped

460
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: using these diagnosis. It's really it's unscientific, and it's unethical

461
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: and its stigmatizing. The only thing it does is perpetuate

462
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: the myth that psychiatry is operating in the scientistic way

463
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: and that these are medical problems. They're not medical. Their

464
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: reactions there understandable reactions to adverse life events.

465
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I want to know.

466
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: I talk about what the research says about the interventions, right,

467
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 4: and I'm going to read out something for the listeners.

468
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 4: This is from a paper that you wrote with James

469
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: Williams in twenty eighteen, and what you did was you looked.

470
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: At a whole heap of people.

471
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 4: Who were taking It was fourteen hundred and thirty one

472
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: people who were on an antidepressant across thirty eight countries,

473
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 4: which I think is really important for listeners to understand.

474
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 4: So it's cross cultural, and you ask them about their experience,

475
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: which is different to what the drug companies tell the doctors. Right,

476
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 4: and we can get into this, but I'm just going

477
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 4: to read this out for people. So sixty one percent

478
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 4: of the responders reported at least ten of the twenty

479
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 4: adverse effects, most commonly feeling emotionally numb seventy one percent,

480
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 4: feeling foggy or detached, seventy percent, feeling not like myself

481
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: sixty six percent, sexual difficulties sixty six percent, drowsing the

482
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 4: sixty three percent, sixty percent had a reduction in positive feelings,

483
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 4: and a whopping fifty percent felt suicidal as a result

484
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 4: of the drugs. And then withdrawal effects were reported by

485
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 4: fifty nine percent and addiction by forty percent. And as

486
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier on the rear of adverse effects were

487
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 4: higher for those prescribed multiple antidepression and those who took antipsychotics,

488
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 4: younger age, and longer use of antidepressors were positive related

489
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 4: to total as verse effects.

490
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 3: But and something you mentioned earliers were as well.

491
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 4: Less than five percent were actually told about these things

492
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 4: by the clinician administering them. So when you did that research,

493
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 4: did that just blow you away? Or were you kind

494
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 4: of expecting that from stuff that you'd seen previously.

495
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 1: Some were expected some surprise. So things that were a

496
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: surprise was the extent of the suicidality and the extent

497
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: of withdrawal. We knew about most of the other effects,

498
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: maybe not that quite as high as we found, but

499
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: we weren't too surprise. But to find that fifty about

500
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: fifty percent of people taking a drug that is supposed

501
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: to lift your mood is making you more suicidal, it's

502
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: difficult to know what the right words are. I mean,

503
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: obviously bizarre comes to mind, but it's staggering. Now I

504
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: have to qualify it a bit because the increased suicidality

505
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: for most people last only for the first few weeks

506
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: of treatment and then dies down a bit. So if

507
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: you can, if you get through those first few weeks,

508
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: then the suicidality from the drugs goes away. However, that's

509
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: still quite alarming, especially if you're not told Some people

510
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: are told that, but a few, but most people are

511
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: not told that. So here you are depressed enough that

512
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: you're willing to take a pill, some pills to try

513
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: and fix that, and just at the point where you're hoping,

514
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: maybe I found a solution, maybe I'm going to feel better,

515
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: you start feeling more suicidal. That's kind of that's scary,

516
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: I think, And I think it's safe to say any

517
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: other drug in medicine that had opposite effect of what

518
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: it is intended to do would never have made it

519
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: to the market in the first place, and certainly would

520
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: be withdrawn as soon as soon as though that reality

521
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: became known what they have done. They have put some

522
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: warnings on antidepressants, so it does state that you read.

523
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: You know, people trouble to read the little pat leaf

524
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: in the packet. I don't know how many people actually

525
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: read that stuff, and I have to admit I probably

526
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: don't when I've given medication, But that's my fault. You

527
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: should read it. It does say for young people only.

528
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: In fact, the evidence is that it's pretty much the

529
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: same for older people as well. But yeah, it is,

530
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: but there seems to be a separate set of standards

531
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: ethically and scientifically for psychiatry compared to the rest of

532
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: medicine that would not be allowed in any other form

533
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: of medicine. And then we can come on to withdraw

534
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: in a minute.

535
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because I was going to say that that

536
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 4: would just not be allowed in anywhere else. It's not

537
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 4: just your group that when I read that research people,

538
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 4: then you know, you diving into pub made similar articles

539
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 4: and find other research groups have found similar things. So

540
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 4: this is not an anomaly. This is across the board,

541
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: and it's very different to what the lay person and

542
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 4: doctors believe, as in, these drugs are seaf and they're effective, right,

543
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: but withdrawal is a completely It's another thing, isn't it,

544
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 4: Because people are on those drugs and you know, one

545
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 4: in seven I think it is in the UK one

546
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: in seven or one in ether I think it's one

547
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 4: in eight in the UK, one.

548
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: In seven in Australia, one in eight in New Zealand.

549
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: Similar in the United States. People are on these medications,

550
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 4: are on antidepressants or antipsychotic medications.

551
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: Iron now one in six in all of those three countries.

552
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 1: And now on antidepressants, and if your female, it's one

553
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: in four, one and five.

554
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 4: I read about the females. I was going to say,

555
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 4: I thought that was just the United States, but it's.

556
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: One in four.

557
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 4: And then if people do try to get off them,

558
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: there are really significant impacts from a withdrawal perspective. So

559
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 4: I'm just going to ask you about in a second.

560
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 4: But the average I think time that people are taking

561
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: these drugs is more than two years. That's the dad

562
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: I saw in Australia.

563
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: You probably got your finger on the pults better than that.

564
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: So talk us like this sorts to become a circular

565
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 4: issue because I take the drugs because I'm feeling depressed.

566
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: If I get over the bump, you.

567
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: Know what what I I know a number of people

568
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 4: who are on there and they just say it makes

569
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 4: the really bad not so bad, right, So but it

570
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 4: grays everything night, right, And then when people do want

571
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 4: to get off them, they have really significant withdrawal effects

572
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 4: and they straight away go of fuck, this is the

573
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: depression coming back in through force. So I have to

574
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: stay on this stuff.

575
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: Let's do the numbers first, so it's about half of people,

576
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: so it's not everybody. It's about half of people when

577
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: they try and come off antidepressants will experience withdrawal effects,

578
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: which is a lot higher than the drug companies were

579
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: told anybody or anybody's ever told. And of those people,

580
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: about half will describe the withdrawal effects as severe. So

581
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: to get into specters, like one in four people will

582
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 1: experience severe withdrawal effects when they try to come off.

583
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: That's that's high one in force.

584
00:32:58,760 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: But it's not.

585
00:32:59,160 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's not.

586
00:32:59,840 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 3: Ever.

587
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: This has been denied for decades by the drug companies,

588
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: and that misinformation has been passed via doctors onto patients.

589
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: The standard view has been that there might be they

590
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: like to call it discontinuation symptoms, which is a drug

591
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: company term designed specifically to sort of minimize it and

592
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: make it sound like it isn't proper withdrawal. And the

593
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: message has been for decades, it's rare, it's mild, and

594
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: it lasts about two weeks. And that that was the

595
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: drug company line that was sort of developed in nineteen

596
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: nineties and regurgitated by the professional psychiatry and I have

597
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: to say many gps as well until Roy very recently.

598
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: The good news is that in Britain at least, we

599
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: are really making some heterodes into that. We've had a

600
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: lot of We've had a government investigation into it. Public

601
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: Health England has published a full report on these sorts

602
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: of things and it's making recommendations that the NAHS and

603
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Ingdom must have withdraw support services for people trying to

604
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: get off antidepressants, and we're in the process of trying

605
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: to get those services off the ground. Are a bit

606
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: ahead of the rest of the world on this, so changes,

607
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: it's possible and it's coming. It's fought truth and nail

608
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: by has been fought by the warw College of Psychiatry here,

609
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: although they eventually got on board and our nice guidelines,

610
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: which National Institute of Clinical Excellence change their guidelines. So

611
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: we have a long nded way and say we are

612
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: making some progress on but I think still around the

613
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: rest of the world, I'm sure in America and particularly

614
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: it's the complete ignorance amongst the GPS who I mean,

615
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: the research is out there now, there's a lot of

616
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: studies showing that these figures that we're talking about, and

617
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: several reviews of the literature. It's out there and while

618
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 1: we're on it now, just for some practical advice people

619
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: who when they do try to come up anti depressants,

620
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: it needs to be done slowly, obviously, yeah, yeah, and

621
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: then most people will know that. But what the people

622
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: don't know is that towards the very end of coming

623
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: off you need to slow down even more. Just when

624
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: you think you can throw the last ones away, that's

625
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: when you need to cut it in half, cut it

626
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: in quart and really really do the last couple of

627
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: months or whatever, very very slowly. Indeed, and at every

628
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: stage of coming off, you come down a little bit

629
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 1: and see how it goes. If you get some withdrawal effects,

630
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: wait for them to subside them, come down a little

631
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: bit more. It's a very gradual, careful first people can

632
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: do it, of course, but as you absolutely pointed out, well,

633
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: the biggest problem is if you try to talk to

634
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: your doctor who has only drug company misinformation to go on,

635
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: and the doctor will say, ah, this is your this

636
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: is your illness coming back. Just at the point where

637
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: you need to support an informed medical professional to help

638
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: you come off very slowly, the exact opposite happens, and

639
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: so the medication is reinstated and people get trapped. And

640
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: that's why the average amount of time that people are

641
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: on this drudge is going up and up and up.

642
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: It's over three years now the average amount of time

643
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: people are and that's average and summer on for ten

644
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: twenty years. I think that I mean and podcast this

645
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: are helping to get the information out there. I think

646
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: changing will have to come because, unlike an to psychotics

647
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: would have taken by a relatively small number of people,

648
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about millions and millions of people on presence. Yeah, buddy,

649
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: if you're not on anti presents yourselves, you know several

650
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: people who are absolutely so. This information will well, I think,

651
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: will permeate gradually and we will people will learn how

652
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: to come up very slurrious, and doctors will eventually get

653
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: evidence based information rather than drug company information, and then

654
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: we'll be able to help.

655
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: What really is banging around in my head very lively here,

656
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 4: John is given that the evidence is out there, you know,

657
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: written by people like you and others who we see

658
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 4: this over and over again, the evidence of the side

659
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 4: effects and the withdrawal symptoms being very different than what

660
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 4: the drug companies advertised, and teach the doctors neither. It's

661
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 4: out there and that people are doing something about it.

662
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 4: I mean, the words informed consent and duty of care

663
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 4: are just banging in my head. Here is that? Why

664
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: hasn't there been from whether it's the health minister or

665
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 4: somewhere very high or psychiatry to go. We need to

666
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 4: now re educate doctors urgently about the real effects of

667
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: these drugs and give people informed consent, where somebody would

668
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 4: sit down with the doctor who has depression and they go, Okay,

669
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 4: here's your options. You can go on a drug and

670
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 4: rattle off all of the side effects that we see

671
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 4: in the withdrawal symptoms, or we can do some alternative treatment,

672
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: which we'll talk about in a second, Like why has

673
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 4: that not happened with extreme urgency? Now that the data

674
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 4: is very clear?

675
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: Well, it's a bit simplistic, but one I record it

676
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: a partial explanation is that when people in those sort

677
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: of positions of authority politicians for instance, have questions about

678
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: medical issues like this, who do they consult with?

679
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 4: They go to the psychiatrists, right the Royal.

680
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: College of Psychiatry or the American Psychiatric Association asks them

681
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: to their view, and their view is dictated by the

682
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: drug companies. And they won't say that they Obviously they

683
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: think they're being independent and scientific, but they're not. And

684
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: the line they will give to the politician is you

685
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: must not do anything that will scare people into stopping

686
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: taking their medication. People will die and it will be

687
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 1: your responsibility if you have promoted this information, this misdate,

688
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: which they see is misinformation that will make people stop

689
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: taking their medication. And that the drug company is incredibly

690
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: powerful lobbyists in America they have and this is out

691
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: of date now it's probably more. They have one full

692
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: time lobbyist for every member of the House of Representatives.

693
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: That's just bonkers. And the professional psychiatry bodies are not

694
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: as powerful as drug companies, but they don't have to

695
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: be as powerful because the politicians come to them. What

696
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,720
Speaker 1: you we do about this? To be fair. In Britain

697
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: they have on antidepressants. They have finally kicking and screaming,

698
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: They have changed their guidelines here and they are now

699
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: saying that yes, antidepressant withdrawal is real and they are

700
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: supporting our efforts to try and get services. So credit

701
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: to them, my credits due. But for thirty years before that,

702
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: they just regurgitated the drug company misinformation. They've got there

703
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: now the American psychiatric source is another matter altogether. They

704
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: are so embedded with the drug companies over there. I'm

705
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: not hopeful.

706
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 4: There's really stunning parallels to big food, which is in

707
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 4: an area that I know a lot of and the

708
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 4: lobby groups that go and that is kind of expecting

709
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 4: that answer because of it's the sea and playbook of

710
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 4: big food, big tobacco, and me and you are both

711
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: scientists and probably as far away as from conspiracy theorists

712
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 4: as you could get, but when you look into this world,

713
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 4: it is a very very mulky world. I want you

714
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 4: to give people just a sense of how the formula

715
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 4: on pharmaceutical industry influence public opinion and research and clinical practice. Because,

716
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 4: for the example of the food, there's the International Life

717
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 4: Sciences Institute, which is funded by big food that then

718
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 4: sponsors research at universities that is deliberately designed to put

719
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: doubt in consumers' minds and cloud the judgment. Right, So

720
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 4: that's one tactic that big big food uses and a lobby.

721
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: So tell our listeners what sort of things that the

722
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 4: pharmaceutical industry does to influence public and practice research.

723
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: Well, as we've already alluded to, the big funders of research.

724
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: Most drug trials psychi actually drug drafts are funded by

725
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: drug companies.

726
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 4: With any sensible person, there's a red flag straight away,

727
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: you would think so.

728
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: But when sort of eighties to ninety percent of called

729
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: trials are drug companies studies, it becomes normalized and they

730
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: say it's not a problem, John, because we now declare

731
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: our conflicts of interest not a problem, which I think

732
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: is quite laughable. It's it's like saying somebody who committed

733
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: a theft saying, well, I have a biget to the theft,

734
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: so why are you still annoyed about? And it's right

735
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: that they should should declare their interests and sometimes a

736
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: list of interests. It's almost as low as the article itself.

737
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: But that's first first way they influence it. Another way,

738
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: in America they influenced things via direct consumer advertising. There's

739
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: only two countries in the world, and I think actually

740
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 1: in New Zealand that's been stopped.

741
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: It's New Zealand and America.

742
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 4: Isn't it that they can advertise drugs to people. Somebody

743
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: told me though I either tried to stop it or

744
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 4: had stopped it.

745
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: In New Zealand, it never had.

746
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: The winter in motion to stop it. In New Zealand,

747
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: I believe.

748
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: In any way they don't do it. I lived there

749
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: for twenty years. You do not see adver advertisements in

750
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: New Zealand television like you do in America. Whenever I

751
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: come over sitting in a hotel and switch to tally

752
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: on every third or fourth advertisement, people and people around

753
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the world don't realize this. Every third

754
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: or fourth of billing is a blood company advertisement.

755
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

756
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 4: I was in America to a couple of weeks ago,

757
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 4: and the amount of odds for drugs because saying go

758
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 4: and ask a doctor about this drug unbelievable.

759
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: Yes. The other way the influence is by funding supposedly

760
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: independent NGOs or charities. So in America, the biggest example

761
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: of this is ARMY, the National Association for Mental Illness

762
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: DNS itself as a pressure group for patients and relatives.

763
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: It's absolutely a front group for the drug companies they as.

764
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: The last time I looked about I think it was

765
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: fifteen different drug companies were funding ARMI, who unsurprisingly are

766
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: always pushing from more medication, more coercive legislation to lock

767
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: people away and get on the sort of injectable drugs

768
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: so that people can't stop taking them, so that they

769
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,439
Speaker 1: do that, and they do that all over the over

770
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 1: the world. We're lucky again in Britain we are largest

771
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: mental health charity called Mind does not take any money

772
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: from drug companies. But that's another way they do it.

773
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: They and that's not just with psychiatry. That's probably in

774
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: your field as well, I don't know, but son in

775
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: all sorts of areas. And the other area, and surprisingly

776
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: is the Internet. And we've published studies where we've looked

777
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: at say the top fifty to Google schizophrenia, and you

778
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: look at the top fifty websites or whatever, more than

779
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: half are drug company funded. And they don't. They don't

780
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: always declare that. Some declare it, some are upfront, some

781
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: are not. And surprise, surprise, when you analyze their websites

782
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: that are drug company funded versus those that are independently funded,

783
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: the drug company wants push a biological explanation and they

784
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 1: push medications, and they in my field of schizophrenia, they

785
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: are much more likely to describe this as that not

786
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: only as an illness, but a debilitating, lifelong, chronic, dangerous illness.

787
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: You ask how they influence these they are very good researchers.

788
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: They don't spend a penny without that doesn't influence things,

789
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: And that's not true. Sometimes they spend money to make themselves.

790
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 3: Look like they're doing good.

791
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: Yes, so they will occasionally fund something on the other

792
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 1: side of the buying. And I actually don't blame in

793
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: them pull their job. Their job is to increase profit

794
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: for their shareholders. Absolutely, and it's the same with same

795
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: with big food.

796
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: That's the job.

797
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: Yes, they shouldn't lie, but we all know that advertising

798
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: is live, we don't. You know, when you buy washing powder,

799
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: you really don't think that it washes whiter than white?

800
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: Do you?

801
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: But well, annoy that.

802
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 3: But what I.

803
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: Find so upsetting is that the professional psychiatry does not

804
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: have a professional ethical boundary between itself and a profit

805
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: making industry. They have just given up on that, and

806
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: that is shameful. It's shameful, a little deta knowing all

807
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 1: of this stuff that you know, how do you stop

808
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: this frustration? Because I can, I can sense the frustration.

809
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: How do you personally stop this frustration from driving you

810
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: completely bonkers? Great Qris Well, first of all, knowing that

811
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: there are thousand of thousands of people around the world,

812
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: engaged in the same struggle. So it's a bit of

813
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: a cliche, but this is the last, in some ways,

814
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: the hardest and last human rights struggle. This is a

815
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: human rights issue that's interesting, and it is very, very

816
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: hard because we're up against the sort of monolithic power

817
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: base that we've been describing. But you meet the best

818
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: people on the way. Like just just on Friday, we

819
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: had five hundred people on the online launcher of a

820
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: book called Drop the Disorders. Doesn't matter the detail, but

821
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: the five hundred people around the world, all focused in

822
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: the same direction, sharing the frustration, and in all different ways,

823
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: from service users to very high powered researchers and professors

824
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: or politicians, all in their different ways, trying to shift

825
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: the paradigm towards an evidence based, humane approach. And it's

826
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: very hard, and it is frustrating. And you know, if

827
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: I've got a disorder, it's banging my head against the

828
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: brick wall. Disorder and well.

829
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 4: Work which unlikely antidepressants. It's great when it stops.

830
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed, so yes, it is. It is frustrating. But

831
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: as I say, there's so many people involved in the struggle,

832
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: and we see we see gains. There are pockets. In

833
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: every country, there are pockets of excellence, and there are alternatives,

834
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: which I know I think you've been asking me about.

835
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: In a second, Yes, the need nurturing and highlighting. And

836
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: within the mental health system there are some really really

837
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: good people, including psychiatrist. So I know I've made blankets

838
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: about the profession of psychiatry. Within that, there are some

839
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: excellent psychiatrists who despite their psychiatric training, are doing some

840
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: very very good good work. And I'm not scared of

841
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: people's emotions and I'm not scared of the complexity of

842
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: people's lives. And then there's the rest of the mental

843
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: health workforce, because you have to remember that psychiatry makes

844
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: up about one percent of the mental health workforce. Somehow

845
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: they grasped much percent of the power. Sounds familiar.

846
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 4: Wow, I mean you just kind of describe the Catholic

847
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 4: Church for me.

848
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: Or most economists for that matter.

849
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, well exactly. I mean that's the thing, right,

850
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 4: is that money talks. It really does. So let's know

851
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 4: that we have open people's eyes to what the data

852
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 4: is actually saying. What are some alternatives to antidepressant and

853
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 4: anti psychotic medications?

854
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: And then you know, at the end.

855
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 4: We're going then point to people in directions for resources

856
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 4: if they are on these drugs and do want to

857
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 4: get off, but alternative interventions and treatments.

858
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, just before we do that, I need to

859
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: stress that for some people the diagnosis are helpful, and

860
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: for some people the medications are helpful. So and certainly

861
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: I should stress that do not stop taking your medication

862
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: on the basis of listening to one podcast.

863
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 4: Yes, and I think, particularly John, if they have serious

864
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 4: disease that you know, so not mild. If they have severe,

865
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 4: I think that's when the drugs tend to are seen

866
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 4: to be, from my reading of it, more helpful for

867
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 4: people who are really debility in it.

868
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: Well, let's just do with that quickly. Then alternatives to

869
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: A while ago, Irvin Cursews at Harvard Medical School got

870
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: hold of all of the drug trials for antidepressants that

871
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: have previously been buried. And by buried, I mean to

872
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: get a license. Get a drug license, you only need

873
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: to do two studies, submit to studies that share effectiveness

874
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: and safety. So the drug companies will do twenty twenty

875
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: five or however Manique takes until they get to that

876
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: US share efficacy, and this those two irving got whold.

877
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: Professor Kursh got hold of all the others analyze all

878
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: of those and he found that for about ninety five

879
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: percent of people on antidepressants, there is no difference between

880
00:48:58,880 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: antidepressants and placed.

881
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 4: Is that the Emperor's new drugs the paper that he wrote, Yeah,

882
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 4: I've got the paper. Yeah, that's stunning. I mean I

883
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 4: want that to sinking to people. For ninety five percent

884
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 4: of them, the antidepressors were no more effective than placebo,

885
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 4: which is not saying that placebo doesn't have an effect, right, Well.

886
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: One, that's important. Yes, that's absolutely important. So it's what

887
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: we were talking about before. People are getting feeling better

888
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: on anti press but not because of the pills, but

889
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 1: because somebody has listened to a little bit, listened at

890
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: least long enough to give them a pill. That's something

891
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: they've decided they've got a problem, and they've decided to

892
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: do something about it, and they are doing something about it.

893
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: And the pills sorttly make you feel different. So it's

894
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: really quite easy under those circumstances. Well I am, I'm

895
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: feeling better. Pacebo is Latin for I please.

896
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 3: Which is ah, there you go.

897
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: He yeah, really need to know, isn't it, And then

898
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: it was another five percent for whom there is a difference,

899
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: and that's the severe. There's mild, moderate, and severe. So

900
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: people but at the top end of the severe category

901
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: do get more some sort of effect that is not

902
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: a placebo effect, and Irving suggested that that's because they

903
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: are so depressed they cannot access the placebo effect right

904
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: so down that it doesn't matter that someone's listened to

905
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: them or they've done something so anyway, but I think

906
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: the important thing is that for ninety five percent of people,

907
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: there's nothing about these pills that are actually helping them.

908
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: So that's important. That's important to that. So when you

909
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: when you think about coming off them, and you worry

910
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 1: about am I going to get worse as a result

911
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: coming off, the answer almost invariably is no, You're not

912
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: going to be worse because of the absence of the pills.

913
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: You may feel worse because of the withdrawal.

914
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 3: Effects getting Yeah, once you get off though, then.

915
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: So you asked me about alternatives and I went off

916
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: for tangent.

917
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: No, No, that was but that's important.

918
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: I think this is where if I'm doing an undergraduate

919
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: lecture This is the part where I make the joke

920
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: about the definition of thought disorder is going off on

921
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: a tangent and not being able to come back. So

922
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: where were we, Paul? If I can't find my way

923
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: back there, that means I've got schizophrenia anyway, brad Ja.

924
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: So the corner. The third thing to say about the alternatives,

925
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: they are all all the variations are based on the

926
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: assumption of the core ingredient or an effective treatment, if

927
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: we must call it that for mental health problems, is

928
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: based on human relationships. So all of the things I'm

929
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: going to talk about now are centered around quality of

930
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: the relationship between the helper and the person being helped,

931
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: and an understanding that the problems have come from very

932
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 1: often faulty or dysfunctional relationships in the past. So it's all.

933
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: Some people call that trauma informed therapy because you focused

934
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: on the traumas in the past. Some people relational therapy

935
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's about human beings. And the basic idea

936
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: here is some of my ideas are a bit simplistic,

937
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that depression is caused by depressing things.

938
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: My idea about therapy, which is also one that everybody

939
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: knows already. If distress and despair and fear is based

940
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: on human beings having done not very nice things to

941
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 1: us in the past, the answer is human beings doing

942
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: nice things to us in the presence. It's not sophisticated,

943
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: is it, but the So there are some examples of

944
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: the alternatives. One that's catching on around the world is

945
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: called open dialogue. Have you heard of that one?

946
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 3: I haven't heard of that, Okay.

947
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: So this rage originated in Finland. It's based on the

948
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: idea and it's especially for psychosis. It's based on the

949
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 1: idea that when somebody has a psychotic episode or lose

950
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: his contact with reality or or whatever you want to

951
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: however you want to describe it, it's very important to

952
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible gather together as the key people

953
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: in that person's life, whether that's family, friends, teaches, doesn't

954
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: matter who it is, get a group of people together,

955
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: including the person themselves, and together talk about what has

956
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 1: gone wrong and what might be helpful. And the role

957
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: of the professional is not to tell the person what's

958
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: going wrong, but to help these key people in the

959
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: person's life develop a plan together about how to help

960
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: that person. Is not rocket science, except that those very

961
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: good science behind it. This works surprise surprise, which is

962
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: completely different from taking the person away from their family,

963
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: locking them.

964
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 4: Up and giving them a leg and altered shocks.

965
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: Oh, don't start me there. That's a whole nother hour.

966
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: But I was in New Zealand for twenty years and

967
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: the Mari people in New Zealand cannot understand why us

968
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,320
Speaker 1: white people, when somebody gets distressed, takes the person away

969
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: from their family, sits them privately in a room and

970
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: has a private one on one discussion which cannot be

971
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: shared with anybody else, which is our understanding confidentiality, isn't it?

972
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: So it makes sense to us, But they don't. Why

973
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 1: on earth would you do that with a pig? So

974
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: they have an open dialogue sort of approach. They will

975
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: literally get together the extended family, which in Marridom can

976
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,479
Speaker 1: sometimes with twenty thirty people, and talk together about what

977
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: these voices the person has heard, what it means, and

978
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: they'll come up with understandings like it's dead grandmothers speaking

979
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: to them or whatever. It will be things that I

980
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: understand or agree with, because I don't think dead grandmothers

981
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 1: can speak to you. But who cares. What I think

982
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: that's a cultural understanding, shared understanding, and what those two

983
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: things have in common is that it does not pathologize

984
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: the individual. It's not like there's something wrong with this

985
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: person that we need to be frightened of them or

986
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: push them away or lock them up or treat them

987
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: as different. It means this is a group problem with

988
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,720
Speaker 1: a group solution, and this completely different sort of approach.

989
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: Another example is the Hearing Voices Network, which now has

990
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: Hearing Voices groups I think are in their twenty three

991
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: twenty four countries, and these are people who hear voices

992
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: coming together to support one and again, similar sort of

993
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: basis is about relationships. It's not nobody has the power

994
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: to diagnose one another or medicate one another or impose

995
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 1: an understanding. Nobody's going to be saying it's all biology

996
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: or it's all trauma. Everybody you know might be twelve

997
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: people in a room. They might have twelve different explanations

998
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: of their voice hearing, and they will share coping mechanisms

999
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: that no mental health professional will ever tell you. For instance,

1000
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: they will share tricks like if you want to hear it,

1001
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: stop the voices, immediately, turn the radio on.

1002
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 3: Or read a book because your attention.

1003
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: That's right, yes, which is simple and obvious. But no

1004
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: mental health professionals still you that they might as ay

1005
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: some of the hearing voices. People are beginning to educate

1006
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: as professional so that's good, and that's going on all

1007
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: around around the world. There's less research on that. We

1008
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: can't do randomized control trials on that, but we have

1009
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: around a few, quite a few now surveys of people

1010
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: who attend those groups, and they talk very much about

1011
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 1: it's helpful because of the non judgmental atmosphere in the

1012
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: room and because it's it's people helping one another, and

1013
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: that that works not for everybody, and some people can't

1014
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: stand groups, you know, so nothing works for everybody. I'm

1015
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: just giving you some examples of the fact that there

1016
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: are alternatives. And another is the Power Threat Meaning Framework,

1017
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: which isn't really a treatment model as a way of thinking,

1018
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: it's an alternative in a way, or an addition to diagnosis,

1019
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: which is something that's British psychologists put together, which is

1020
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: out there on the internet for free. The power Threat

1021
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: Meaning Framework, which basically express it simply, it means, instead

1022
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: of asking what's wrong with somebody who asked what's happened

1023
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: to them? And then how do they Again, none of

1024
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: this stuff is complicated or rocket science, and I think

1025
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: it's the right time to mention that when you do

1026
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: surveys around the world asking people what causes mental health problems,

1027
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: in every country except America, God bless America, they seem

1028
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: to get everything wrong. But in twenty seven countries where

1029
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: this has been done, you ask people what's wrong, what

1030
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: causes mental outcome? They prioritize social things. They prioritize loneliness, loss, trauma, abuse,

1031
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: being a refugee, unemployment. We know, we know why we

1032
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: get upset, don't we Because upsetting things happen. And then

1033
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: we'll ask them what sort of treatment should be given,

1034
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: whether that's the depression or schizophrenia or anything. They prioritize

1035
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: social solutions, and primarily talking therapies are much more in

1036
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: demand around the world than medication or certainly an ect.

1037
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: So I guess I'm stressing that because that sometimes those

1038
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: of us calling for change positioned as sort of a

1039
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: radical or a bit extreme, but the public almost everywhere

1040
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: is already on that page, and now so is the

1041
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: United Nations and the World Health Organization, who who are

1042
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: putting out twenty twenty three. Just last year they put

1043
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: out a joint document calling to an end to the

1044
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: medical model.

1045
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you're just describing the biopsychle social model versus

1046
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 4: the medical model, right that tikes into a kind the

1047
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 4: people's backgrounds, their social connections or But but you're talking

1048
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 4: about it from an intervention perspective.

1049
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm talking more about the social than the bio. It's

1050
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: a bit complicated.

1051
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 4: The sorry, sorry, I should have said psycho social.

1052
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 3: Should have taken a biote right.

1053
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: Well, yes, except, of course the brain is important. But

1054
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 1: let's just quickly, very quickly deal with that. The brain

1055
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: is important, but not in the way that the drug

1056
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: companies and psychiatry tells. If the best way to illustrate

1057
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: this quickly, say I've lost two or three people in

1058
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: the last three months, are very dear to me. My

1059
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: thoughts will be different, my feelings will be different, and

1060
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: my brain will be operating differently at that point in time,

1061
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: so on, my metabolism and everything all be sort of

1062
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: closed down. Along terms of research, you're looking for the

1063
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: cause of my depression. They look at the scan my

1064
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 1: brain and see what's going on in my brain. And

1065
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: yes it is operating differently. Has that caused my or

1066
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: have the losses causes And that's the fundament mental mistake

1067
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: that biological psychiatry he keeps making. They keep finding these

1068
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: brain differences and simplistically, and I have to say, stupidly

1069
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: think that they're causal. They're not causal. They're the result

1070
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: of what's going on in pertance. And the quickest way

1071
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: to get that across with them is what use would

1072
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: a brain bee that didn't respond to what's going on

1073
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: in the environment.

1074
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 4: That's a very good point, John, is that we are

1075
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: brains are designed to respond to the environment. That there

1076
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 4: is remodeling of our brains depending because of that neuroplasticity,

1077
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 4: and that's what we do, is we respond to the environment.

1078
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 4: I'm going to throw a couple of other things just

1079
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 4: to get your opinion on them, and I think here

1080
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 4: more is around some of the drivers of mind depression.

1081
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 4: I'm not talking about the severe or even potentially the moderate.

1082
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 4: I'm talking about the large percentage of worried well who

1083
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 4: are out there and here on an antidepressant. So our

1084
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 4: recent publication this year and i'm Uberella review of ultraprocessed

1085
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 4: food find convincing class one evidence, which you very rarely

1086
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 4: see in nutrition, that increasing ultraprocessed foods in the diet

1087
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 4: increases the risk of anxiety by forty three percent and

1088
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 4: forty eight percent sorry, and common mental health disorders by

1089
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 4: fifty three percent.

1090
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 3: Right.

1091
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 4: And we know that in your country and my country,

1092
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 4: more than fifty percent of all calories concerned are ultra

1093
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 4: processed shit.

1094
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 3: Right.

1095
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 4: And if you're eating a shit diet, I say that people,

1096
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 4: you're playing Russian Roulette with your mental health, especially when

1097
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 4: you combine that with not exercising, because the human genome

1098
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,959
Speaker 4: is so dependent on physical exercise. I mean I could

1099
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 4: wax lyrical for at least an hour of the impact

1100
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 4: of mild kinds and particularly on the brain, on all

1101
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 4: of these different neurotransmitters and feel good chemicals that basically

1102
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 4: that if you're not exercising, eating well, and sleeping well,

1103
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 4: you're actually.

1104
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 3: Putting your brain in at.

1105
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 4: A massively increase vulnerability, I believe. And then you have

1106
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 4: these natural life events that cause us to be sad and.

1107
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 3: Then bomb people. And then the answer is there's.

1108
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 4: A pill for that, which is the easy way out

1109
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 4: because it's a shit a load easier to take a pill,

1110
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 4: then get off your ass and exercise and stop eating

1111
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 4: shit food and get off Netflix and social media at nights, right,

1112
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 4: And so I'd like your opinion on that. But then

1113
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 4: also I think as an adjunctive therapy for treatment is

1114
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 4: getting people in a wholesome diet and exercising and being

1115
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 4: good around their sleep hygiene, so as they that it

1116
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 4: works in with all of those really important social interventions

1117
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 4: that you're talking about.

1118
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 3: What's your thoughts on those things?

1119
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely agree with all of that. If not, they're they're

1120
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 1: they're not my area of expertise. But then as that

1121
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: surprises me, so it's crucially important. It's because some of

1122
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: that is beginning to happen over here as social It's

1123
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: called different things, but some people will go it's social prescribing.

1124
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 1: So so some of our GP practices now have social

1125
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: prescribing offices or whatever they're called, where somebody will be

1126
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 1: encouraged to think of different ways that they can. I

1127
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,959
Speaker 1: guess the theme is do something get involved in. Whether

1128
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: that's running exercise, it's swimming, or dramatic society or or

1129
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: chess club or whatever. It doesn't sort of matter. And

1130
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the motivation for that is

1131
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: around relationships.

1132
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 4: Again, do something with other people ideally.

1133
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: Yes, but it does address some of the issues you're raising,

1134
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: like exercise and they will die. Diet will certainly be

1135
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: in on the agenda when people use with the social prescriber,

1136
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: that's a very exacting development I think. And they're locating

1137
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: in GP's offices.

1138
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 4: Ah.

1139
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 1: Nice, but that's part of the problem because the GP,

1140
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: who has no time at all, has to try and

1141
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,959
Speaker 1: refer people to somewhere else and very often we don't

1142
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: bother going or whatever. They're actually right there in the

1143
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: in the GP practice Live will be addressing to those

1144
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: points that you raise, which it might as are incredibly important.

1145
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 4: John, I am aware of your time. You've been very

1146
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 4: generous with it. But there is a question I think

1147
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 4: we have to address. And so what is helpful and

1148
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 4: what is helpful for people who are trying to withdraw

1149
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 4: from anti psychotic medications, antidepressants, antipsychotics, and are there any

1150
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 4: resources that you can point them to as well?

1151
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so general guidelines around what's helpful on what's unhelpful.

1152
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: So what's helpful is ideally, and I know this is difficult,

1153
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: ideally get the support of the person who prescribed the

1154
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: drugs that's currently that's quite difficult to do in many circumstances,

1155
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: but at least try. You might you might just be surprised,

1156
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: especially if you take some research with you or whatever.

1157
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: But be prepared for that person to say no. Especially

1158
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 1: with ant psychotics, they'll say no, it's not safety to

1159
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: come off, you'll go crazy, blah blah. But try, because

1160
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: that is the ideal situation. Other than that, there's a

1161
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 1: lot of support out there on Facebook groups and online

1162
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't need to use online groups for things

1163
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 1: to provide things that professionals should be providing. But I

1164
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: think for the next five ten years, until we educate

1165
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: the professionals, these groups are going to be still very important.

1166
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: One for instance, is that there's an ORGI in a compass.

1167
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: I can email you. I don't know if you can

1168
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: put them up on that'd be great.

1169
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'll stick these links on for people for sure. Yeah.

1170
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: All right, So in a compasses one, because there's lots

1171
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: around the world. There's a lot of resources at an

1172
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: organization that I'm chair of that you mentioned before, the

1173
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: International Institute of Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal, and there's a new

1174
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: one also called psychotropic I think it's called a Psychotropic

1175
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 1: Prescribing Council, which has just started a similar organization. There's

1176
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: lots out there on the internet, and some of them

1177
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: are people supporting one another like in a compass, and

1178
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: this one called Surviving Antidepressants. There's lots, and then others

1179
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: are like these institutes and organizations are trying to provide

1180
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: resources and research from people. So that's another way to

1181
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: get Getting support from family and friends is key if

1182
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: you can. It can be very hard for partners or

1183
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: children or whoever. When you are going through withdrawal. There

1184
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: will be times when you will be a pain in

1185
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 1: the ass because you also to stress. You're very stressed,

1186
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: and so people need to sort of know what's going

1187
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: on and try and get support from from family and

1188
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: then and then what I was mentioning before is that

1189
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 1: the importance of not going too fast, and the problem

1190
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: is that's different for each individual. So by and large,

1191
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 1: rather than reducing, so the mistake in the past has

1192
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: been reduce ten grams or milligrants, ten milligrams or whatever

1193
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: per time. Don't do that reduced by a percentage. So

1194
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: if you're reduced by ten percent every time, then the

1195
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 1: actual amount you're reducing each time is getting smaller as

1196
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 1: time goes on. That it's called parabolic. It sounds a

1197
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: bit classical, but it's really important. It really can make

1198
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: the differ diference for some good research now thirty days.

1199
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: But we are fairly convinced that that is a safer

1200
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: way to go, so, especially at the end, very very

1201
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: very slowly, and it's to do with the way that

1202
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: the brain has adapted without going into technicalitism. So those

1203
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: are the key things. So the unhelpful get I guess

1204
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: is the opposite of all of those. Trying to do

1205
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: it completely by yourself with no support and going to

1206
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: quickly go to the nose can be done. And having

1207
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: said all of that, inexplicably some people are able to

1208
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: just go completely cold turkey. So I can, and people

1209
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: sometimes John I did, I don't. I didn't need all that.

1210
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: I just I just I'm strong willed and I just

1211
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: stopped and it was horrible, but I got through it

1212
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: well done. But not the recommended mechanism not recommended. And

1213
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:50,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you're not strong world if you cut.

1214
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: If you can't do that, I'm just acknowledging that everybody

1215
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: is different.

1216
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 4: What's your hope for the future in all of this,

1217
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 4: I think we do need a complete paradigm shift.

1218
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: We have to let go of this simplistic and actually

1219
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: pessimistic idea that when we are distressed and feel hopeless

1220
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 1: or confused or desperate, that means there's something wrong with

1221
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: our brains or our genes. It doesn't. It means that

1222
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: we are human beings. And when awful things happen in

1223
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 1: personal worlds or as the sort of things you're talking

1224
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: about terms of our nutrition, we will feel terrible and

1225
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: we need solutions that address that. And we have to

1226
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: free our mental health services from the influence of drug companies.

1227
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: And until we've done that, this paradigm change won't happen.

1228
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: And that isn't going to be easy because they're not

1229
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: going to go with their power. One of the most

1230
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: hopeful things for me recently is being involved in some

1231
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: legal cases around ECT, which I won't i'll go into

1232
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: because we're running out of time. But I said for

1233
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: a long time, change is more likely to come when

1234
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: we earn get people into court than when we publish

1235
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: research papers.

1236
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 4: You know, I was thinking earlier on John when the

1237
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 4: day that somebody starts to take doctors and characterists to

1238
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 4: court for not giving them proper informed consent, that's when

1239
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 4: we might see a bit of a change.

1240
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 3: Right, Sorry but I interrupted.

1241
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 4: Just so, just for for our list of ECT is

1242
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 4: an electoral convulsive shock therapy, right, that's correct.

1243
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: Yes, So several cases in America and two in Canada

1244
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: and one in the UK currently working their way through.

1245
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,759
Speaker 1: One last year is in a jury trial in Florida

1246
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,640
Speaker 1: where was the expert witness there? And we want a

1247
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: jury trial case wherever we found the manufactures of the

1248
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: ECT machine who happened to be two psychiatrists guilty of

1249
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: misinforming of not informing psychiatrists of the risks. And that

1250
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: was a major breakthrough. So that's the first one one,

1251
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 1: and once you won one with the tends to be

1252
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 1: a domino effect. I personally think ECT will be gone

1253
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,760
Speaker 1: within the next five to ton. Yes, the problem is

1254
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: then out there developing new things to replace it already.

1255
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's endless. We've got ketamine, we've got locinogenic works,

1256
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: we've got magnetic stimulation of the brain, so that the

1257
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 1: biological fix is will always be attractive. I think because

1258
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 1: there's money it's easy to make money out of them,

1259
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 1: especially in the American system based on insurance and so forth,

1260
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: and be as three of the reasons we discussed before,

1261
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: it's simplistic, and we don't have to address the messier

1262
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: sides of our lives, things that sometimes we just don't

1263
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: want to talk about. So but I am fortunate as

1264
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:26,480
Speaker 1: much as I get invited around the world increasingly online

1265
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: these days, obviously, and so I meet, I see the

1266
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: struggles going on in many, many different countries or focus

1267
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 1: in this direction of getting a paradigm shift towards an

1268
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 1: evidence based social relationship based its humane alternatives to this

1269
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: pessimistic and unscientific approach that we currently have. And I'm

1270
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 1: optimistic that we will get there, but I'm not stupid

1271
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 1: enough to think it's going to happen quickly.

1272
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 4: John, This is being friggin' awesome. I really do tip

1273
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 4: my hat to you, because you and many others are

1274
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,799
Speaker 4: like you, are are out there really moving the needle

1275
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 4: on something that is causing a lot of humans suffering.

1276
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 3: Around the world.

1277
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 4: So well done, Matte, and just keep up your great work,

1278
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 4: which I'm sure you absolutely will, because clearly you're a

1279
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 4: very passionate trail blazer in this place. So thank you

1280
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 4: for your time, and thank you for your years of

1281
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 4: really hard research and getting a message out there.

1282
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on, and thanks for the work

1283
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:26,720
Speaker 1: you do in your field as well as a real

1284
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 1: parallel effort.

1285
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:29,600
Speaker 3: I think absolutely