WEBVTT - The bloody war over Sudan's gold 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:09.160 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. The 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:11.760 killing in the city of Elfasha, in Sudan's staff War 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:15.360 region is so brutal and widespread that bloodstains on the 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.520 ground can be seen from space. For a year and 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.200 a half, a militia group called the RSF has been 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.680 attacking the city, and last week it fell, resulting in 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.320 the mass slaughter of civilians. In the past two years, 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.520 twelve million people in Sudan have fled their homes and 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.000 more than one hundred and fifty thousand people have died, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.839 making this the world's largest humanitarian crisis. The violence is 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.000 sponsored and enabled by the United Arab Emirates, a key 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.040 Western ally, raising questions about the West in action and complicity. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:47.160 Today. 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.840 Sudanese political analyst and founder of the think tank Confluence 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.280 Advisory Hallud Hair on what is unfolded in al Fascia 0:00:54.760 --> 0:01:02.880 and what comes next for Sudan. It's Friday, November seventh, 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.440 so a lot a few days ago the world saw 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.160 these images of blood stained ground into four which is 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.560 evidence of violence so widespread that it is visible from space. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.320 Tell me what you thought when you saw those images. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.480 Well, it's very indicative of the sort of scale of 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.880 the violence that has been reported. A lot of the 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.399 violence that we're seeing is actually documented by the RSF 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.240 soldiers themselves in videos that have been posted on social media, 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:42.720 on TikTok, on Instagram and other apps as well. The 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.039 scale of the violence that we're seeing against the people 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.480 in fashion is reminiscent of other genocides. You have, you know, 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.720 the separating of men and boys from women and girls 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.320 that we saw during the Srebonita massacre. You see the 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.880 velocity of the killing that we saw in the Rwandan genocide. 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.480 You see the siege and starvation of people, you know, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.240 ahead of mass episodes of slaughter that was sow for example, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.800 in Raza. You know, to my mind, this is very 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.960 clear that we have the systematic targeting of ethnic communities 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.840 by the RSF that is very much consistent with the 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.520 types of a trustee violence we see during a genocide. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.560 Horrific details emerging out of Sudan as the two year 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.040 civil war reaches a dangerous new phase. AID agencies reporting 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.519 new evidence of genocide citing these On top. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.600 Of that, we have seen videos where they dehumanize the 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.080 people they're about to kill and they say you know, 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.320 it's rabbits a season and we need to you know, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.040 chase after them as they're chasing after them in the 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:46.399 middle of the desert and killing them. So we see 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.440 all the hallmarks here of a sort of genocidal violence 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:56.160 playing out. There was a recent report that said about 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.000 seven thousand people had been killed in the past sort 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.399 of eight days, and that's average of one thousand a days. 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.360 So there's a huge number of people that are losing 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.360 their lives. But we have, according to un estimates, two 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.120 hundred and sixty thousand people, half of whom one hundred 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.440 and thirty thousand were children who were in ul fashion 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.880 before Old Fashed fell, and the numbers of people who 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.000 have since made it out of Old Faship only number 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.560 about sixty thousand. So we still have about two hundred 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.920 thousand people that are unaccounted for, which means the atrocity 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.200 risks that have been in place since Lashed fell continued 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:26.760 to be there. 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.480 And talk to me a bit about how what's happening 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.000 in El Fashia right now fits in in the broader 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.440 context of war in Sudan over the past couple of years. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.000 So the RSF has been trying to get its hands 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:43.080 on Alfashed for the better part of eighteen months now, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.640 and Fashia itself has had been under siege per Abaus 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.200 five hundred and fifty days before it finally fell in 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:49.360 the hands of the RSF. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.680 In Sudan's north, what was once a sanctuary is now 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:58.520 under siege. The road to alf Fasher, Sudan's last major 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:04.520 city that hasn't fallen, a battleground targeted by the rebel 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.400 paramilitary Rapid Support Forces or RSF, who've been accused of 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:09.840 ethnic cleansing. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.720 The Submizan forces that was stationed there. They fled Al 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.159 Fashia two days before it fell, effectively leaving the people 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.920 of Alfasha to their fate. With the RSF. 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.919 RSF fighter's cheer in front of the army headquarters and 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.440 El Fasher in Darfur. It's a strategic victory for the 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.040 paramilitary group which has been fighting the Sudanese army since 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.280 twenty twenty three. The government forces have now lost their 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.279 last remaining stronghold in Sadan sta Full region. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.200 We've seen them make further moves towards other towns in 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.560 the southwesterly region. The RSF is keen to consolidate its 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.919 military control over the western territory of Saddan, because this 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.200 allows it to keep the supply lines of weapons and 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:57.360 fuel consistent that come in through Libya, Chad, Central African 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.599 Republic and parts of South Sudan. Much of the weaponry 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.280 that is coming through those supply lines is thought to 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.600 originate from the United Arab Emirates, which has been a 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.960 key supporter of the RSF since the start of this war. 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.520 So this they believe is quite a turning point for 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.640 them in terms of their fortunes, after having lost swathes 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.920 of territory over the past year before the rainy season, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.480 and now starting off this dry season or fighting season 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.799 with sort of a bang, if you will, and moving 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:31.640 ever eastwards, eventually they hope into the capital Khartoum again 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.360 and then eventually into the Red Sea. 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.159 So the RSEF is now in control of Elfacher and 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.440 it has been a bar with the Sudanese Armed Forces 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.200 since twenty twenty three. Those two militias were initially partners 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.120 in government. Can you take me back and tell me 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.640 what happened in twenty twenty three to begin this war. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.200 So if we want to look at the origins of 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.919 this conflict, we have to go two years before it 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.800 broke out in Jartu, which is the coup of twenty 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:03.440 twenty one. 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.240 Now, after thirty years in power, Sudanese President Omar al 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.640 Bashir has been overthrown by the military. It comes after 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.360 months of deadly protests over his repressive rule. On Thursday, 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:19.479 Defense Minister Alad Mohammad Ahmad ibn Uf announced that Bashir 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.960 had been arrested. A military council will now be formed 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.400 and it will rule for two years before elections take place. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.720 Within that period, the staff and the RSF position themselves 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.400 very well, particularly the RSSEF, to make sort of political 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.880 claims as to representing the people and allowing civilian democratic 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.880 rule to take shape, but realized that with the civilian government, 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.760 the prospect of military rule from which they benefit would 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.960 be diminished. That civilian rule would show value, that it 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.240 would bring Sadan back in from the cold and really 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.039 become part of the international community. Those successes very much 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.480 threatened the security state of which the Sudnzan forces and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.479 the RSF were each part. But once they conducted this 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.000 coup together in twenty twenty one, the cracks between them 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.360 really started to show. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.280 More explosions in Sudan's capital, Hartoum in the first minutes 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.000 of what was supposed to be a ceasefire but did 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.920 not take effect as Sudan's army and most powerful paramilitary 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:19.640 fight each other for the fourth day. 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.080 They did not agree, for example, on how they would 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.440 consolidate this coup. Then those questions were really never answered 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:30.040 because just ahead of an agreement that would have seen 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.720 a lot of these issues, if not resolved then at 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.760 least addressed, the Rapid Support Forces and the Sudesearm Forces went. 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:41.440 To war, two warring sides, each supported by multiple armed groups. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:46.040 The Sudanese armed Forces and the paramilitary Rapid Support Forces 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.280 used to work alongside each other, but have been locked 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.800 in a bloody civil war since April twenty twenty three. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.640 Now to this day, we don't have firm evidence of 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:59.400 who fired the first shot and therefore started off in Khartoum, 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.960 But what we do know is that because the war 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.920 started in Khartoum, then Sudan has such a centralized state structure. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.960 This has had a reverberating impact on state functionality in general. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.120 So we have seen very sharp state collapse across the country. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:20.320 Banks suddenly weren't able to function, telecommunications struggled. Services such 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.080 as health and education became impacted. Seventy percent of health 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.320 centers were suddenly out of commission. Ninety percent of school 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.560 children were suddenly out of school in the first few 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.959 years of the war. By and large, most of the 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:39.480 population Insteradan has no access to public infrastructure, public services, policing, etc. 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.840 Coming up, how Western weapons are being used in the 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:56.959 genocidal violence. And this is not simply a conflict between 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.920 two rebel groups. This is too fully armed and back militias. 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.079 The SAFF is supported by countries including Egypt and Russia 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:07.960 and Iran. But as you mentioned, the RSF has been 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.600 supported by the UAA. Can you tell me more about 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:11.559 what we're not about that? 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.720 So the UAE denies supporting the RSF, But there have 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.720 been very well grounded and well founded pieces of evidence 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.360 that point two are very sustained campaign by the UAE 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.000 to support the RSF. So we have had investigative reports 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.560 by the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times. The 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.000 UN's own panel of experts has said that its found 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.680 credible evidence of the UE supporting the RSF. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.920 The UAE's foreign Ministry tells for UA it is not 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.880 providing any support or supplies to the Rapid Support Forces 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.120 or to any of the warring parties in Saddan, but 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.040 to UN reports, says there is credible evidence to the 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.400 country and we. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:54.920 Know through open source intelligence analysts or ocent analysts that 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.800 there are several flights, especially over the past few months, 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.560 but certainly since the start of this war, that saw 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:04.760 plane falls of weapons land in nearby countries for use 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.720 of the RSF, where the UAE has created us sort 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.199 of alliances with countries all around Sudan. 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.520 The waterrn country is surrounded by major arms trafficking hubs. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.360 Apart from Chad, weapons and ammunition are smuggled in through 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.439 countries like Libya, the Central African Republic, South Sudan, and Uganda. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:27.640 But the RSEF also sits on land that has a 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.680 lot of gold deposits, and the UAE of course has 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.560 some of the world's largest gold markets, particularly in Dubai. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.160 Now the irony is that the UAE also had very 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:41.040 until very recently economic agreements and economic relationships with the 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.000 Sydney's Armed forces as well, particularly around gold where several 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.480 gold companies, especially one in the eastern part of the 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.280 country was co owned by the Sydney's Armed Forces and 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.280 then several Amoralti companies, and so what we see here is, 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.480 you know, sort of a scramble for Sudan, if you will. 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.120 That has a lot more to do with access to 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.360 resources and an influence over the Nile and the Red Sea. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.680 And because Sidan straddles so many geo strategic zones, whether 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.200 it's a Hell, the Horn of Africa or the Red Sea, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.080 it becomes a prize for countries like the UE that 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.720 have these imperial ambitions in the region. That sees it 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.520 sort of rise out of its middle power status to 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:23.240 really become a hegemen in the region. The UAE, for example, 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.760 outspends China and parts of the African continent, and it's 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:31.160 actually relied upon by the West to outspend China economically speaking, 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.480 and so that has given its a very particular position 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.040 which it has relied upon in order to minimize the 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.040 level of censure it gets from the West. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.079 Can we talk a little more about that, because the 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:46.760 US is of course a key ally to the UAA. 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.600 It's got diplomatic partnerships with many countries in Western Europe, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.320 So to what extent do you think that those global 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.480 ties have allowed these atrocities to continue to occur. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:02.040 Well, the atrocities are fed by local dynamics. We see 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.720 the Arab groups that make up the RSF really try 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:09.760 to settle scores historical scores around key grievance's local grievances 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.760 under the cover of this national level conflict that is ongoing. 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.920 But certainly the RSF would not have the capacity to 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.800 be able to carry out such acts of violence and 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.959 certainly will not be in such a sophisticated position, particularly 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.600 in regards to the weaponry that it has, were it 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.280 not for the support of the United Arab Emirates. But 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.199 every statement that we have seen from Washington, from Whitehall, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.559 from Brussels, from New York, the United Nations, even closer 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.800 to home of the African Union, whilst all of them 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.520 mentioned the violence committed by the RSF and mentioned the 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.360 RSF by name, they do not mention the support that 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.600 they get from the United Arab Emirates. And that's because 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.640 the UE has positioned itself very well visa v its allies, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.280 particularly in the West, where it's become indispensable on several 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:59.440 files on data and crypto, particularly following Donald Trump's recent 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.640 visit of the summer to the Gulf region also interests 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.680 around Israel and the security of Israel, in which the 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.280 United Arab Emirates has positioned itself as really the only 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.040 Arab ally in the region on that file. Then because 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.959 of that, Sudan doesn't really rank very highly in terms 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.040 of the foreign policy priorities that the West has with 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:22.559 the UE. 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.480 And so if the US and the Western world are 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.440 as it seems unwilling to put pressure on the UAE 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.920 to stop arming the RSF, how do you think this 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.760 conflict is going to play out from here? 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.280 Well, quite clearly, unless the West are going to call 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.720 out the UAE, but also have consequences for the actions 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.040 of the UAE, including are not limited to sanctions as 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.960 well as stopping arms transfers and sales from these countries 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.960 to the UAE, not much is going to change. We 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.960 have seen recent reporting that shows that British, American and 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.760 Canadian weapons or weapons parts finding their way into the 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.840 rsf's hands having first been bought by the UAE. And 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.360 this is very concerning for not just these countries that 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.080 now become implicated in the acts of the RSF, but 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.840 also becomes very concerning for the publics in these countries 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.920 that do not want their governments to be party to 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.960 the kind of genocidal violence that we're seeing taking place 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.240 in therefor by the RSF right now. But again because 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.640 of these shared interests with the UAE around data around Israel, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.360 it's very unlikely under the current conditions that we're going 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.960 to see the West call out the UAE for supporting 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.920 the violence of the RSF is committing. 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:40.040 Well. 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:41.600 Thank you so much for speaking with me. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:42.480 Thank you. 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.040 Also in the news, almost three million Australian Microsoft customers 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.720 who upgraded their plans plans to include the AI feature 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:05.280 copilot will be offered a refund. The company emailed the 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.840 refund offered to subscribers, admitting they had fallen short following 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.720 legal action against them by the a Triple C. The 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.920 consumer watchdog alleges Microsoft intentionally misled customers to believe they 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.680 had to pay more for AI, even though they actually 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.480 had the option to remain on their current plan. The 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.920 tech giant faces multimillion dollar penalties if the court rules 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:30.440 in the A Triple C's favor, and police are expected 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.280 to apply for a warrant to arrest Bruce Lammon after 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.120 he failed to appear in court on a charge of 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.480 vehicle theft. The former staffer is alleged to have stolen 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.160 a Toyota Prado last year, an allegation he denies. But 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.960 when Lamman's matter was called in court yesterday, neither heat 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.000 nor his lawyer were present. I'm Ruby Jones. This is 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:49.600 seven am. Thanks for listening.