Speaker 1: I need guys to kind of have this mindset where
Speaker 1: it's like you're the leader, You're a sort of you're dominant,
Speaker 1: you're the dictator of the relationship. What you say goes.
Speaker 2: Luis Thearux has spent years making television out of the
Speaker 2: people polite society prefers not to think about do you
Speaker 2: consider yourself a misogynist?
Speaker 1: No, because massogy would be the hatred of women. I
Speaker 1: would argue I love women and actually understand them. So
Speaker 1: since I understand them, I know what's best for them.
Speaker 2: You think you know better than they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so many ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It is new documentary on the menisphere. It turns that
Speaker 2: gaze on a world of male grievance, online swagger and
Speaker 2: old misogyny dressed up in the language of self help.
Speaker 1: And that's how women want it. They want a guy
Speaker 1: that can lead them and dominate them.
Speaker 2: In Australia, research is and educators say that boys, women
Speaker 2: and girls are bearing the consequences of actions and attitudes
Speaker 2: turning up far beyond the screen in classrooms, in harassment
Speaker 2: and intimidation, and in the growing sense among girls that
Speaker 2: school is becoming less and less safe. I'm Daniel James
Speaker 2: and you're listening to seven AM today Misogyny researcher at
Speaker 2: Monash University, doctor Stephanie Westcott, and while Louis Thereroux's documentary
Speaker 2: miss is the real story and what happens when we
Speaker 2: treat misogyny as fascinating instead of dangerous. It's Monday, March thirty,
Speaker 2: doctor Westcott, thank you so much for joining us. Louis
Speaker 2: Thereux's Manus Feed doco is getting a lot of attention
Speaker 2: right now. But you think it's mister Mark. Why?
Speaker 3: I think it's mister Mark for several reasons. The first
Speaker 3: is that traditionally Louis Thereaux has sought to explore communities
Speaker 3: that are pretty hidden from mainstream view and mainstream understanding,
Speaker 3: provided access where perhaps there has not been any before.
Speaker 3: And we know that the manisphere is no longer a
Speaker 3: fringe phenomenon. It's pretty mainstream. We've seen it on Married
Speaker 3: at First Sight recently.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what I want in my wife.
Speaker 1: Someone that's submissive, someone that's not going to say would you.
Speaker 2: Be a house husband? Once again? That gives off. It's
Speaker 2: sort of it's masculating towards me. I'm not maide, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3: But the other issue that I had when watching it
Speaker 3: is that, you know, I understand Luis Throu's style, and
Speaker 3: it works really well a lot of the time. But
Speaker 3: what it did in this instance, I think was actually
Speaker 3: just replicate the same position that lots of people are
Speaker 3: taking when they hear Manisphere type ideas or suggestions, which
Speaker 3: is just to sort of step back and observe and
Speaker 3: not necessarily step in to clarify or you know, rebuke.
Speaker 3: And these ideas have sort of just become so saturated
Speaker 3: in our culture that they they are getting mainstreamed. And
Speaker 3: so the danger I think in this piece is these
Speaker 3: ideas can seem sometimes pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific. For example,
Speaker 3: if we're talking about biology, men's biology, or masculinity and femininity,
Speaker 3: and I don't think we have broadly interrogated them enough
Speaker 3: for us to see how they unfold in ways that
Speaker 3: are harmful. So it very well may just sort of
Speaker 3: reinforce it their relatively neutral ideas.
Speaker 4: As a woman can be stunningly beautiful at twenty years
Speaker 4: old and get invited to ride in that car, or
Speaker 4: onto a boat, or be flying in Miami or whatever,
Speaker 4: because it's pure beauty. Nobody's going to invite him on
Speaker 4: a trip to Miami. They're not going to fly him out.
Speaker 4: He has to create value in the world. He has
Speaker 4: to be valuable to other men.
Speaker 2: What do you think of some of the men that
Speaker 2: were featured in the documentary and their ideas? Because while
Speaker 2: the menisphere is being talked about for some time, for
Speaker 2: those who haven't been exposed to it, it came as
Speaker 2: a shock. Did it shock you, Stephanie?
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, so it didn't shock me at all.
Speaker 3: I've been researching this for three years, and I've seen
Speaker 3: and heard how it changes boy's behavior, and so I
Speaker 3: just found it pretty normal, really normal sort of manuspect content.
Speaker 3: There was I think one figure in the show who
Speaker 3: was an associate of Andrew and Tristan Tate, alleged rapists
Speaker 3: and human traffickers. And while seeing in particular that I
Speaker 3: was troubled by was when he sort of stood outside
Speaker 3: his office and gestured towards the buildings around him and said.
Speaker 4: Now, men build, build and maintain society. That's a fact,
Speaker 4: you know, and women do that too, I don't. I
Speaker 4: look around. Can you name anything that a woman is
Speaker 4: invent and built in our plain site.
Speaker 3: And Luis Thurroux sort of said, is that.
Speaker 4: True men built all these buildings, they engineered them, they
Speaker 4: designed them. Can we definitely know that it is a fact?
Speaker 3: And I understand the technique of course that Lui throu
Speaker 3: he's imagining his audience saying it's particulous.
Speaker 2: I mean, what a joke.
Speaker 3: But the problem is that we're hearing these messages all
Speaker 3: the time now, especially in schools in Australia, and they're
Speaker 3: not easily responded to and challenged when they do come up,
Speaker 3: because these figures are now being seen as truth tellers
Speaker 3: and as sources of reliable information. So I think that's
Speaker 3: what troubled me about that particular exchange. And also as
Speaker 3: an associate of dangerous men, I thought his inclusion in
Speaker 3: the documentary was also dangerous proximity to that world.
Speaker 2: If we zoom it had a bit, can you tell
Speaker 2: us a bit more about what the manisphere actually is
Speaker 2: and who are these men and why are young boys
Speaker 2: being sucked in by it?
Speaker 3: So the manisphere is kind of a term that's come
Speaker 3: from academia, and it is a classification system essentially that
Speaker 3: characterizes content YouTubers, podcasters and also a range of online
Speaker 3: groups who cohere around similar themes, and those themes tend
Speaker 3: to be anti feminist, anti women. They tend to be
Speaker 3: focused on male grievances.
Speaker 5: I coach boys how to be fucking boys, how to
Speaker 5: make money, how to be outside the system, how time
Speaker 5: I have a boss telling you what to do. I
Speaker 5: teach guys to be proper guys, not these little sawyer
Speaker 5: boys gimps that walk around in the modern day.
Speaker 3: And the reason that they find boys and young men
Speaker 3: to begin with is because the.
Speaker 2: Algorithms are designed that way.
Speaker 3: So we've had multiple studies now that have confirmed that
Speaker 3: you just have to create an account that ostensibly belongs
Speaker 3: to a boy, and within a really short period of time,
Speaker 3: say twenty minutes or so, they will see Mattisphere content.
Speaker 3: So it will find them regardless. It may come to
Speaker 3: them during a period of vulnerability. They may be experiencing
Speaker 3: feelings of loneliness or some mental health issues, and what
Speaker 3: the matisphere does when it finds them is provides them
Speaker 3: with a really concrete and certain and neat script for
Speaker 3: how to be successful. That is why we tend to
Speaker 3: hear some people say, well, you know, the manisphere actually
Speaker 3: is useful for boys and men. It can support them,
Speaker 3: but it always comes with a side of abuse of
Speaker 3: some sort, whether that is misogyny.
Speaker 1: You guys overinflate your own sense of self worth. You
Speaker 1: guys think you're better than you really are. But the
Speaker 1: reality is all of you guys bring the same thing
Speaker 1: to the table virtually because men don't ask for much,
Speaker 1: So if you don't want to go give it to them,
Speaker 1: you'll go and find it twenty one year all that well.
Speaker 3: Or it is also interlaced with all other forms of
Speaker 3: bigotry as well, And you would viewers of the documentary
Speaker 3: would have seen that anti Semitism is a really common
Speaker 3: sentiment among these creators too, and homophobia and transphobia.
Speaker 4: My son come up gay, We seriously be gay nowadays
Speaker 4: is considered quite normal.
Speaker 2: Not my son? Why just not my son? In it
Speaker 2: to say like you disowned him, that's a big statement.
Speaker 3: So there is always a cost to the way that
Speaker 3: these figures, the way that these men sell the type
Speaker 3: of success that they are promoting, and the cost is
Speaker 3: usually to others, but also to the men themselves because
Speaker 3: the type of masculinity or type of self food that
Speaker 3: they promote is extremely in Darrow and extremely rigid, and
Speaker 3: they can actually be financial exploitation that occurs as well.
Speaker 2: How much are they going to pay? It's like.
Speaker 4: A month and then you get a small segn up fee.
Speaker 2: That's part of the model, Yes, sir, coming up how
Speaker 2: the manisphere is impacting women and girls, Stephie. One thing
Speaker 2: that wasn't covered and doesn't get spoken about enough in
Speaker 2: relation to the Manisphere is its impact on women and girls.
Speaker 2: What do we actually know about the impact of the
Speaker 2: manisphere on women and girls?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we actually have some data to draw on here.
Speaker 3: About three years ago, we did a study on Andrew
Speaker 3: Tate's impact in Australian schools and we spoke to women
Speaker 3: working in Australian schools for that study and they told
Speaker 3: us the most disturbing and troubling set of stories that
Speaker 3: were despite them being in different locations around Australia and
Speaker 3: different school sectors, they were remarkably the same. And the
Speaker 3: story was that boys' attitudes of behavior towards girls and
Speaker 3: women have changed.
Speaker 6: Female teachers being circled in playgrounds, even being asked to
Speaker 6: perform domestic tasks.
Speaker 3: The idea of asking a teacher to make a sandwich
Speaker 3: is a reflection, particularly to a female teacher that really
Speaker 3: should should be at home in the kitchen.
Speaker 6: And there's not just concern for teachers. Young girls are
Speaker 6: reporting feeling unsafe.
Speaker 3: There was a two and twenty four survey of girls
Speaker 3: in Australia by Yugov and Tomorrow Women, and in that survey,
Speaker 3: one in four adolescent girls said that they were feeling
Speaker 3: unsafe in school because of boys' behavior. So we know
Speaker 3: the really popular trope of if you've got the naughty boy,
Speaker 3: you put the good girl next to him to keep
Speaker 3: him in line. And that dynamic is indicating that you're
Speaker 3: willing to make a certain sacrifice so that a good
Speaker 3: outcome can be achieved for one student and the possible
Speaker 3: harms for the other student don't really factor into consideration.
Speaker 3: So this is an issue that I would love to
Speaker 3: see more, more interest in and more conversation about, because
Speaker 3: we know broadly in Australia that there is a huge
Speaker 3: gender based violence issue and these are not separable issues,
Speaker 3: they're the same.
Speaker 2: We saw a shocking example of some of the behavior
Speaker 2: girls and teachers have been talking about in Wa this month.
Speaker 7: So now deleted video was shared to TikTok and shows
Speaker 7: children at Baldivers Secondary College, causing chaos. They walk on
Speaker 7: the desks. One student even puts his hands in the
Speaker 7: teachers here despite her asking him to stop.
Speaker 2: What did you think when you saw that video?
Speaker 3: So when I saw that video, I had a visual
Speaker 3: response to it, and I think a lot of educators would.
Speaker 3: But what I thought was disturbing about that video was
Speaker 3: the hair touching her, hair touching her body, the smoke
Speaker 3: in her face, and her she's asking them to stop
Speaker 3: and they keep going.
Speaker 2: That is a consent problem.
Speaker 3: And we you know, we've had a lot of progress
Speaker 3: on consent education nationwide in Australia. But this is another
Speaker 3: example of where a woman's no is not actually a no,
Speaker 3: it's an invitation to keep going. And because of the
Speaker 3: talking points that the Manisphere will provide, it can be
Speaker 3: really hard to counter. It's a very difficult dynamic to
Speaker 3: enter into as a teacher and try to correct.
Speaker 2: So the boys become very well versed in the language
Speaker 2: or the manisphere and use that as a way to
Speaker 2: combat change.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they bait teachers, so they will take Manisphere talking
Speaker 3: points all concepts or ideas that they know are provocative
Speaker 3: or controversial. The talking points that they might to raise
Speaker 3: are things like I mean it used to be what
Speaker 3: do you think about Andrew Tate? And then if a
Speaker 3: teacher tried to shut that down, the response might be,
Speaker 3: but I have free speech, I'm allowed to say these things.
Speaker 3: Or I don't actually need an education. You you know
Speaker 3: this is useless. I'm going to become an entrepreneur. Or
Speaker 3: girls don't need an education. They can just make an
Speaker 3: only fans account and make their money that way. So
Speaker 3: this beliefs that aren't just among boys. We know that
Speaker 3: girls are also taking on some of these ideas from
Speaker 3: the state home girlfriend or tried wife sort of area
Speaker 3: of the internet.
Speaker 2: And finally, Stephanie, how do we combat these kinds of
Speaker 2: attitudes and protect our boys and girls from them?
Speaker 3: So we can do a few things, and a lot
Speaker 3: of it we already have in schools in Australia. The
Speaker 3: first thing is we have a respectful Relationships curriculum to
Speaker 3: mandated in Victorian government schools. It's also part of the
Speaker 3: Australian curriculum. But as part of that we also need
Speaker 3: to think about how we are going to equip students
Speaker 3: young people with the skills they need to critically examine
Speaker 3: the information they're consuming on the internet. So there's a
Speaker 3: teaching approach or seat of teaching strategies known as critical
Speaker 3: Digital literacies, and what those approaches do is teach young
Speaker 3: people to ask a set of critical questions about what
Speaker 3: they're seeing, who made it, what's their motive, is it real,
Speaker 3: who's benefiting from it? We also need, as well as
Speaker 3: the education approaches, we need to take these things really
Speaker 3: seriously when they do happen. We've got lots of data
Speaker 3: from women in school saying that they're not taken seriously,
Speaker 3: their harm isn't understood, or they are gas lit by
Speaker 3: school leaders. They will still hear, boys will be boys
Speaker 3: when they report problematic behavior. So we need to take
Speaker 3: that seriously as a workforce safety issue. We need to
Speaker 3: have mechanisms in place for reporting and responding, and we
Speaker 3: need to be really clear that it's never acceptable. And
Speaker 3: if we are company that's strong approach with an education approach,
Speaker 3: I think we've got a better chance of supporting all
Speaker 3: young people than we do at the moment.
Speaker 2: Doctor Wescott, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks very much.
Speaker 2: Also in the news, the alban Ezi government will today
Speaker 2: introduced legislation allowing Export Finance Australia, the government's trade finance agency,
Speaker 2: to underwrite extra imports of petrol, diesel, fertilizer and other
Speaker 2: essential supplies affected by the war in the Middle East.
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi announced the new fuel security powers
Speaker 2: on Saturday, saying the plan will let the government cover
Speaker 2: some of the financial risk for private importers. The move
Speaker 2: comes after weeks of higher fuel prices and shortages at
Speaker 2: some service stations, especially in regional Australia and Yemen's Iran
Speaker 2: back who SEE rebels have claimed responsibility for two missile
Speaker 2: attacks on Israel as the war in the Middle East
Speaker 2: marks its one month anniversary. The strikes for the first
Speaker 2: time the Whosis have attacked Israel since the start of
Speaker 2: the war, was the spokesperson for the rebel group, saying
Speaker 2: they will continue to carry out military operations in the
Speaker 2: coming days. The move could put further pressure on the
Speaker 2: global economy if the group attacks civilian shipping in the
Speaker 2: Red Sea. I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to seven Am.
Speaker 2: We'll be back tomorrow.