WEBVTT - What Louis Theroux’s Manosphere doco missed 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:01.960 I need guys to kind of have this mindset where 0:00:02.000 --> 0:00:04.800 it's like you're the leader, You're a sort of you're dominant, 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:07.080 you're the dictator of the relationship. What you say goes. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:09.880 Luis Thearux has spent years making television out of the 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.680 people polite society prefers not to think about do you 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:15.400 consider yourself a misogynist? 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.639 No, because massogy would be the hatred of women. I 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.520 would argue I love women and actually understand them. So 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.680 since I understand them, I know what's best for them. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:27.240 You think you know better than they do. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:28.720 Yeah, so many ways. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:29.000 Yeah. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.159 It is new documentary on the menisphere. It turns that 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.479 gaze on a world of male grievance, online swagger and 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.440 old misogyny dressed up in the language of self help. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.199 And that's how women want it. They want a guy 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.040 that can lead them and dominate them. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.560 In Australia, research is and educators say that boys, women 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.600 and girls are bearing the consequences of actions and attitudes 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.000 turning up far beyond the screen in classrooms, in harassment 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.480 and intimidation, and in the growing sense among girls that 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:05.600 school is becoming less and less safe. I'm Daniel James 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:10.280 and you're listening to seven AM today Misogyny researcher at 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.920 Monash University, doctor Stephanie Westcott, and while Louis Thereroux's documentary 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.520 miss is the real story and what happens when we 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:29.560 treat misogyny as fascinating instead of dangerous. It's Monday, March thirty, 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.080 doctor Westcott, thank you so much for joining us. Louis 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.120 Thereux's Manus Feed doco is getting a lot of attention 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.839 right now. But you think it's mister Mark. Why? 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.640 I think it's mister Mark for several reasons. The first 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:52.280 is that traditionally Louis Thereaux has sought to explore communities 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.200 that are pretty hidden from mainstream view and mainstream understanding, 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.960 provided access where perhaps there has not been any before. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:02.680 And we know that the manisphere is no longer a 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.480 fringe phenomenon. It's pretty mainstream. We've seen it on Married 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:07.920 at First Sight recently. 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.720 I know exactly what I want in my wife. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.639 Someone that's submissive, someone that's not going to say would you. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.760 Be a house husband? Once again? That gives off. It's 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.600 sort of it's masculating towards me. I'm not maide, you know, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:22.320 I'm not doing that. 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.600 But the other issue that I had when watching it 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.160 is that, you know, I understand Luis Throu's style, and 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.440 it works really well a lot of the time. But 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.720 what it did in this instance, I think was actually 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.079 just replicate the same position that lots of people are 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:46.680 taking when they hear Manisphere type ideas or suggestions, which 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.079 is just to sort of step back and observe and 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.760 not necessarily step in to clarify or you know, rebuke. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.799 And these ideas have sort of just become so saturated 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.520 in our culture that they they are getting mainstreamed. And 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.200 so the danger I think in this piece is these 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.760 ideas can seem sometimes pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific. For example, 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:14.480 if we're talking about biology, men's biology, or masculinity and femininity, 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.360 and I don't think we have broadly interrogated them enough 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.680 for us to see how they unfold in ways that 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.720 are harmful. So it very well may just sort of 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.079 reinforce it their relatively neutral ideas. 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.079 As a woman can be stunningly beautiful at twenty years 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.880 old and get invited to ride in that car, or 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.040 onto a boat, or be flying in Miami or whatever, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.160 because it's pure beauty. Nobody's going to invite him on 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.200 a trip to Miami. They're not going to fly him out. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.520 He has to create value in the world. He has 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:46.960 to be valuable to other men. 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.520 What do you think of some of the men that 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.800 were featured in the documentary and their ideas? Because while 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:54.920 the menisphere is being talked about for some time, for 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.080 those who haven't been exposed to it, it came as 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.120 a shock. Did it shock you, Stephanie? 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.120 Oh no, no, so it didn't shock me at all. 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.800 I've been researching this for three years, and I've seen 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:11.360 and heard how it changes boy's behavior, and so I 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.320 just found it pretty normal, really normal sort of manuspect content. 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.120 There was I think one figure in the show who 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.919 was an associate of Andrew and Tristan Tate, alleged rapists 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.719 and human traffickers. And while seeing in particular that I 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.800 was troubled by was when he sort of stood outside 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.400 his office and gestured towards the buildings around him and said. 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:38.120 Now, men build, build and maintain society. That's a fact, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.960 you know, and women do that too, I don't. I 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.200 look around. Can you name anything that a woman is 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.040 invent and built in our plain site. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.839 And Luis Thurroux sort of said, is that. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.120 True men built all these buildings, they engineered them, they 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.559 designed them. Can we definitely know that it is a fact? 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.480 And I understand the technique of course that Lui throu 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.200 he's imagining his audience saying it's particulous. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:09.040 I mean, what a joke. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.960 But the problem is that we're hearing these messages all 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.640 the time now, especially in schools in Australia, and they're 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.520 not easily responded to and challenged when they do come up, 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.640 because these figures are now being seen as truth tellers 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.480 and as sources of reliable information. So I think that's 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.720 what troubled me about that particular exchange. And also as 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:35.480 an associate of dangerous men, I thought his inclusion in 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.960 the documentary was also dangerous proximity to that world. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:41.640 If we zoom it had a bit, can you tell 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.400 us a bit more about what the manisphere actually is 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.080 and who are these men and why are young boys 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:48.560 being sucked in by it? 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.800 So the manisphere is kind of a term that's come 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:56.880 from academia, and it is a classification system essentially that 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:04.440 characterizes content YouTubers, podcasters and also a range of online 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.680 groups who cohere around similar themes, and those themes tend 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.520 to be anti feminist, anti women. They tend to be 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.919 focused on male grievances. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.920 I coach boys how to be fucking boys, how to 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.320 make money, how to be outside the system, how time 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:21.839 I have a boss telling you what to do. I 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.480 teach guys to be proper guys, not these little sawyer 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.640 boys gimps that walk around in the modern day. 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.400 And the reason that they find boys and young men 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:31.359 to begin with is because the. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:32.800 Algorithms are designed that way. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.680 So we've had multiple studies now that have confirmed that 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.520 you just have to create an account that ostensibly belongs 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.279 to a boy, and within a really short period of time, 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.000 say twenty minutes or so, they will see Mattisphere content. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.919 So it will find them regardless. It may come to 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.880 them during a period of vulnerability. They may be experiencing 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.919 feelings of loneliness or some mental health issues, and what 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.760 the matisphere does when it finds them is provides them 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:06.640 with a really concrete and certain and neat script for 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.040 how to be successful. That is why we tend to 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.679 hear some people say, well, you know, the manisphere actually 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.520 is useful for boys and men. It can support them, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.760 but it always comes with a side of abuse of 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.920 some sort, whether that is misogyny. 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.800 You guys overinflate your own sense of self worth. You 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:27.880 guys think you're better than you really are. But the 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:29.520 reality is all of you guys bring the same thing 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.040 to the table virtually because men don't ask for much, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:33.600 So if you don't want to go give it to them, 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.600 you'll go and find it twenty one year all that well. 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.000 Or it is also interlaced with all other forms of 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.440 bigotry as well, And you would viewers of the documentary 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.280 would have seen that anti Semitism is a really common 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.200 sentiment among these creators too, and homophobia and transphobia. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:52.440 My son come up gay, We seriously be gay nowadays 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:54.080 is considered quite normal. 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.000 Not my son? Why just not my son? In it 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.440 to say like you disowned him, that's a big statement. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.200 So there is always a cost to the way that 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.760 these figures, the way that these men sell the type 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.560 of success that they are promoting, and the cost is 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.480 usually to others, but also to the men themselves because 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:15.640 the type of masculinity or type of self food that 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.840 they promote is extremely in Darrow and extremely rigid, and 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.040 they can actually be financial exploitation that occurs as well. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:24.560 How much are they going to pay? It's like. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.000 A month and then you get a small segn up fee. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.760 That's part of the model, Yes, sir, coming up how 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:45.600 the manisphere is impacting women and girls, Stephie. One thing 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.280 that wasn't covered and doesn't get spoken about enough in 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.800 relation to the Manisphere is its impact on women and girls. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.360 What do we actually know about the impact of the 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:55.760 manisphere on women and girls? 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.840 Yeah, so we actually have some data to draw on here. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.480 About three years ago, we did a study on Andrew 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.760 Tate's impact in Australian schools and we spoke to women 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.560 working in Australian schools for that study and they told 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:13.320 us the most disturbing and troubling set of stories that 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.280 were despite them being in different locations around Australia and 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.000 different school sectors, they were remarkably the same. And the 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.520 story was that boys' attitudes of behavior towards girls and 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:24.480 women have changed. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.480 Female teachers being circled in playgrounds, even being asked to 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.400 perform domestic tasks. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.240 The idea of asking a teacher to make a sandwich 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.400 is a reflection, particularly to a female teacher that really 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:38.880 should should be at home in the kitchen. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.600 And there's not just concern for teachers. Young girls are 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.640 reporting feeling unsafe. 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.199 There was a two and twenty four survey of girls 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.960 in Australia by Yugov and Tomorrow Women, and in that survey, 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.840 one in four adolescent girls said that they were feeling 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.640 unsafe in school because of boys' behavior. So we know 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.800 the really popular trope of if you've got the naughty boy, 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:04.959 you put the good girl next to him to keep 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.439 him in line. And that dynamic is indicating that you're 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.280 willing to make a certain sacrifice so that a good 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.680 outcome can be achieved for one student and the possible 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.960 harms for the other student don't really factor into consideration. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.000 So this is an issue that I would love to 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.960 see more, more interest in and more conversation about, because 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.840 we know broadly in Australia that there is a huge 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.800 gender based violence issue and these are not separable issues, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:34.439 they're the same. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.520 We saw a shocking example of some of the behavior 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.760 girls and teachers have been talking about in Wa this month. 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.679 So now deleted video was shared to TikTok and shows 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:48.160 children at Baldivers Secondary College, causing chaos. They walk on 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.200 the desks. One student even puts his hands in the 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:54.000 teachers here despite her asking him to stop. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:55.920 What did you think when you saw that video? 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.040 So when I saw that video, I had a visual 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.240 response to it, and I think a lot of educators would. 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.920 But what I thought was disturbing about that video was 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:10.439 the hair touching her, hair touching her body, the smoke 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.080 in her face, and her she's asking them to stop 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:14.160 and they keep going. 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.000 That is a consent problem. 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.880 And we you know, we've had a lot of progress 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:26.000 on consent education nationwide in Australia. But this is another 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:31.160 example of where a woman's no is not actually a no, 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.280 it's an invitation to keep going. And because of the 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:39.000 talking points that the Manisphere will provide, it can be 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.760 really hard to counter. It's a very difficult dynamic to 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:44.880 enter into as a teacher and try to correct. 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.000 So the boys become very well versed in the language 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.240 or the manisphere and use that as a way to 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:52.440 combat change. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:57.040 Yeah, they bait teachers, so they will take Manisphere talking 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.640 points all concepts or ideas that they know are provocative 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.920 or controversial. The talking points that they might to raise 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.080 are things like I mean it used to be what 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.000 do you think about Andrew Tate? And then if a 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.200 teacher tried to shut that down, the response might be, 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.439 but I have free speech, I'm allowed to say these things. 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.920 Or I don't actually need an education. You you know 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.960 this is useless. I'm going to become an entrepreneur. Or 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.520 girls don't need an education. They can just make an 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.880 only fans account and make their money that way. So 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.160 this beliefs that aren't just among boys. We know that 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.160 girls are also taking on some of these ideas from 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.880 the state home girlfriend or tried wife sort of area 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:35.520 of the internet. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.080 And finally, Stephanie, how do we combat these kinds of 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.319 attitudes and protect our boys and girls from them? 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.839 So we can do a few things, and a lot 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.080 of it we already have in schools in Australia. The 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.920 first thing is we have a respectful Relationships curriculum to 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.600 mandated in Victorian government schools. It's also part of the 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.240 Australian curriculum. But as part of that we also need 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.240 to think about how we are going to equip students 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.840 young people with the skills they need to critically examine 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.880 the information they're consuming on the internet. So there's a 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.400 teaching approach or seat of teaching strategies known as critical 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:17.200 Digital literacies, and what those approaches do is teach young 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.880 people to ask a set of critical questions about what 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.000 they're seeing, who made it, what's their motive, is it real, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.679 who's benefiting from it? We also need, as well as 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.280 the education approaches, we need to take these things really 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.960 seriously when they do happen. We've got lots of data 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.559 from women in school saying that they're not taken seriously, 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.840 their harm isn't understood, or they are gas lit by 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.720 school leaders. They will still hear, boys will be boys 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.720 when they report problematic behavior. So we need to take 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.440 that seriously as a workforce safety issue. We need to 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.320 have mechanisms in place for reporting and responding, and we 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.720 need to be really clear that it's never acceptable. And 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.559 if we are company that's strong approach with an education approach, 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.079 I think we've got a better chance of supporting all 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.400 young people than we do at the moment. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.680 Doctor Wescott, thank you so much for your time. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.240 Thank you, thanks very much. 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.960 Also in the news, the alban Ezi government will today 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:32.080 introduced legislation allowing Export Finance Australia, the government's trade finance agency, 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.440 to underwrite extra imports of petrol, diesel, fertilizer and other 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.160 essential supplies affected by the war in the Middle East. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.680 Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi announced the new fuel security powers 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.560 on Saturday, saying the plan will let the government cover 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.000 some of the financial risk for private importers. The move 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.280 comes after weeks of higher fuel prices and shortages at 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:59.640 some service stations, especially in regional Australia and Yemen's Iran 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.880 back who SEE rebels have claimed responsibility for two missile 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.640 attacks on Israel as the war in the Middle East 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.760 marks its one month anniversary. The strikes for the first 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.160 time the Whosis have attacked Israel since the start of 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.160 the war, was the spokesperson for the rebel group, saying 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.080 they will continue to carry out military operations in the 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.320 coming days. The move could put further pressure on the 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.680 global economy if the group attacks civilian shipping in the 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:28.160 Red Sea. I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to seven Am. 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:29.400 We'll be back tomorrow.