Speaker 1: Hi, good a team. It's Dr Jody and Craig Athny Harper,
Speaker 1: It's the You Project, it's us, it's you, and I'm
Speaker 1: a bloody idiot. I tell you why I'm a bloody idiot.
Speaker 1: Put my hand up. I'm throwing myself under the bus
Speaker 1: because Dr Jody and I just did a fabulous five
Speaker 1: minutes or so of broadcasting without actually recording it because
Speaker 1: Fatty harps Jumbo over here, who's in charge of the buttons,
Speaker 1: didn't push the go button. Dr Jody, I apologize, welcome
Speaker 1: back again.
Speaker 2: Oh do you know what, Craig, it's so comforting for
Speaker 2: all of us to know how many podcast episodes have
Speaker 2: you recorded and that you have made a small mistake,
Speaker 2: and thankfully we realized very soon and very early on.
Speaker 2: So I am great, and I know what you're gonna
Speaker 2: ask me, and I didn't the first time round, so
Speaker 2: I'm better prepared.
Speaker 1: Well, can I tell you one way worse than you
Speaker 1: and me? Which was about four minutes of wasted time?
Speaker 1: But then was it? Maybe it was beautiful, But I
Speaker 1: interviewed the hesitant of the Hawthorne Footy Club whole interview.
Speaker 1: I mean, also, it's not like he's got a lot
Speaker 1: of free time, Andy Gowers. It's not like, oh, he's
Speaker 1: got heaps of free time because he works full time
Speaker 1: in another capacity. Also is the president of Hawthorne Footy Club.
Speaker 1: Me fifty minutes, I was about fifty minutes until fifty
Speaker 1: five minute podcast and I realized, and I'm like, so
Speaker 1: do I make mistakes? Well, that's the worst one I've
Speaker 1: made in the history of the U Project. Not that
Speaker 1: you're not a big deal, but at least wasted. At
Speaker 1: least I wasted four minutes of your life, not fifty.
Speaker 1: All right. So for those of you who haven't met
Speaker 1: doctor Jodi among well, you give our newbies, you give
Speaker 1: them a snapshot of who you are, rather than me,
Speaker 1: do it?
Speaker 2: Oh, Craig Okay, well hello, and it's lovely to be yeah,
Speaker 2: spending some time I'm with you if you haven't met
Speaker 2: me before. I was just saying to Craig, I was
Speaker 2: so anxious the first time I was a guest, and
Speaker 2: I've lost count. So I've been a guest on and
Speaker 2: off over the last few years. So I am I
Speaker 2: guess my life's work is around helping people to understand anxiety,
Speaker 2: to know that it is something that we can do
Speaker 2: many things to dial down, settle down, settle ourselves, understand it,
Speaker 2: cope with it more than cope with it, support other people,
Speaker 2: and that I do that as a professional speaker in
Speaker 2: workplaces and schools. I have a weekly podcast, Well Hello Anxiety,
Speaker 2: and I have written two books, two anxiety books, one
Speaker 2: for parents and one for anxious mums. So I live
Speaker 2: with it. It's very much a part of my life.
Speaker 2: And I'm medicated for my anxiety. So I feel like
Speaker 2: I have a really good handle on what it's like
Speaker 2: to live with it, and also all of the kind
Speaker 2: of the professional side of what we can do about
Speaker 2: it to live a really good life, even if it's
Speaker 2: part of it. Yeah. So that's me in a.
Speaker 1: Nutshell perfect And I've done something which I never do.
Speaker 1: I've prepared for a chat. And I'll tell you why
Speaker 1: I prepared because I feel like with doctor Jodi, we
Speaker 1: just well, I just well, No, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: we get good feedback, so it must not be terrible.
Speaker 1: But I think I could probably use your knowledge and
Speaker 1: your skills and your experience and your understanding of anxiety
Speaker 1: and all of the intersecting issues and variables in a
Speaker 1: more productive way. Than I have. So today we're going
Speaker 1: to be grown up. So I'm going to actually ask
Speaker 1: you grown up questions that might be of value that
Speaker 1: people can go, oh cool, well that's really good to know.
Speaker 1: That makes me less stressed, or that's good to know
Speaker 1: I might try that, or I didn't know that. That's
Speaker 1: a revelation. So and every time I talk to you,
Speaker 1: you know, and I've been around people with mental health
Speaker 1: issues and people who have struggled, and I've had my
Speaker 1: own little moments in time, but every time I talk
Speaker 1: to you, every time I learn it at least one
Speaker 1: new thing. So so I'm very grateful to you. All Right,
Speaker 1: now you know what question one is, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask it again for the because of course of
Speaker 1: our false start everyone. So question one is, what is
Speaker 1: something about anxiety that most people either get wrong or
Speaker 1: don't understand?
Speaker 2: Well let me think, no, I know the answer is one.
Speaker 2: So the thing about it, So first and foremost, I
Speaker 2: just want to say that like anxiety, living with it,
Speaker 2: it can be so painful and so debilitating, and like
Speaker 2: I've been there, and what I didn't understand at the beginning,
Speaker 2: and what I really love to help people sort of
Speaker 2: be clear about with anxiety is it it's you know,
Speaker 2: essentially in the brain there's a threat that has been
Speaker 2: detected around us. For some reason, when we feel anxious,
Speaker 2: we don't feel safe. It could be because we're doing
Speaker 2: something really important like a job into or we could
Speaker 2: be doing something that other people find easy, like even
Speaker 2: just picking up the phone and making a phone call.
Speaker 2: So anxiety can show up for different people in different ways.
Speaker 2: But I think the thing I want most people to
Speaker 2: understand that is often misunderstood is that it's not something
Speaker 2: that we can eliminate from our lives. It's something that
Speaker 2: is there to keep us safe. But just our brain
Speaker 2: constantly going into that survival mode of I detect a threat,
Speaker 2: your life is in danger means that often our anxiety
Speaker 2: is really overreacting and overprotective to what's happening for us.
Speaker 2: We can't get rid of it because it is there
Speaker 2: to keep us safe. It's our brain sort of alarm system.
Speaker 2: But what we can do is we can live an
Speaker 2: amazing life by getting a good understanding what's happening, having
Speaker 2: a willingness to turn around and have a little look
Speaker 2: at your anxiety and get to know it a bit
Speaker 2: better and understand it and sort of end the struggle.
Speaker 2: One of the things I love to say is imagine
Speaker 2: you're in a tug of war with your anxiety. You'd
Speaker 2: kind of like letting go of the rope. Anxiety is
Speaker 2: still there, you're just dropping the struggles. So I guess,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that I think is
Speaker 2: misunderstood is that you know, we can wait for it
Speaker 2: to go to do the things we want to do.
Speaker 2: And another thing, too, is that some people think that
Speaker 2: just time will help heal it. But time actually doesn't
Speaker 2: heal anxiety unless you're doing certain things to move it
Speaker 2: to the background, and often it gets worse if it's
Speaker 2: left unaddressed.
Speaker 1: I feel like with everything you know, everything from anxiety
Speaker 1: to nut allergies to how we respond to weight training,
Speaker 1: to you know, our physiological response to being in a
Speaker 1: small room, or I feel like it's different for different people. Two,
Speaker 1: It's like anxiety manifests differently and at different levels, and
Speaker 1: is triggered by different things in different people. Obviously, So
Speaker 1: my question is like, for example, while you say we'll
Speaker 1: always probably deal with anxiety on a level, but isn't
Speaker 1: it possible that the thing that used to give me anxiety,
Speaker 1: say public speaking doesn't anymore.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you can. Absolutely, Yeah, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking while you were talking there
Speaker 2: was something I wanted to add. Absolutely, there's no question
Speaker 2: that we can manage it. We can settle it, and
Speaker 2: we can we can learn to live with it in
Speaker 2: a way that it doesn't stand in the way of
Speaker 2: us doing those things. But the only way forward is through.
Speaker 2: And what I overlooked saying before, is it anxiety show
Speaker 2: up around the things that we care about. So, like
Speaker 2: you and me, we stand in front of groups of
Speaker 2: hundreds or over a thousand people in a room with
Speaker 2: a microphone. And I don't know about you, but I
Speaker 2: mean I don't get so anxious I can't do what
Speaker 2: I want to do, but I still feel anxious because
Speaker 2: I care about it. You know, anytime you're doing something
Speaker 2: that's important, it's a very natural thing to feel. So
Speaker 2: we can settle it down. And I often say we
Speaker 2: dial it down because we don't want it to overwhelm us,
Speaker 2: because when it overwhelms us, we can't actually think and
Speaker 2: use the part of our brain we often need to
Speaker 2: to perform well in the situations we are anxious about yes, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, true. You know what's interesting as you were saying that,
Speaker 1: as you're talking about you and doctor Jody gets on
Speaker 1: stage and talks to groups and companies and organizations like me,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm you and I probably similar in that
Speaker 1: if I've got I've got a bunch of gigs coming up,
Speaker 1: and some of them are really big, and my overwhelming
Speaker 1: emotion is excitement. Right. However, as we're recording this, it's
Speaker 1: eleven seventeen and at two o'clock today, so in less
Speaker 1: than three hours, I've got a zoom meeting with my
Speaker 1: senior academic supervisors where I've got to talk and give
Speaker 1: them a bit of a debrief on where I'm at
Speaker 1: with the progress of my what they call project right,
Speaker 1: which is your PhD. Right, that me talking to them
Speaker 1: two or three depends on who shows up. Where I've
Speaker 1: got a talk for twenty thirty minutes to tell them
Speaker 1: where I'm at, what I'm doing. Da Da da da da.
Speaker 1: That gives me not overwhelming but low level anxiety where
Speaker 1: I'm worried. Now, that's me talking to two or three
Speaker 1: people on Zoom versus Hey, Harps, you're in the Grand
Speaker 1: Ballroom at the Hiatt or whatever, and I'm like, what
Speaker 1: zero zero fear just fun just can't wait, just fucking
Speaker 1: let me out there. So it is funny, like the
Speaker 1: same the same activity in a different setting or context
Speaker 1: or for a different reason. So yeah, it is interesting.
Speaker 1: Like when I've done my you know what they call milestones,
Speaker 1: academic milestones where you stand in front of board, you
Speaker 1: and I have spoken about. I didn't know I could
Speaker 1: be so scared. It's so funny. Look, because I think
Speaker 1: I don't get scared of much, and in my general life,
Speaker 1: I don't. I get scared about mom and dad dying
Speaker 1: a bit. I don't overthink it. But I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not excited about that when I think about things
Speaker 1: that I'm fearful of. But then when I started doing
Speaker 1: these things where I'm definitely absolutely the dumbest person in
Speaker 1: the room in this conversation, and then you think, oh,
Speaker 1: they're all smarter than me, they're all better than me,
Speaker 1: they're all more academic than me, they've all got more
Speaker 1: miles on the clock than me. Ah, for sure, I'll
Speaker 1: be found out, you know. So yeah, that's an maybe
Speaker 1: that's a variable in there.
Speaker 2: Oh it's and it speaks to the fact that you
Speaker 2: care very very deeply. Of course you do. This is huge,
Speaker 2: like what you're undertaking doing completing a PhD. Is it.
Speaker 2: It's not for the faint hearted. It's very very stressful
Speaker 2: and a huge, huge part of the meetings that you're
Speaker 2: having is that the outcome of this goal that you've
Speaker 2: set for yourself, you know, is at every step where
Speaker 2: you have these milestones, you have these meetings. It's there's
Speaker 2: that uncertainty about the outcome versus the first time you're
Speaker 2: on stage. I mean, I don't know like I think
Speaker 2: when I first started, Like it's like anything, we're more anxious.
Speaker 2: But the more experience we get and the more predictable
Speaker 2: and experience becomes, the less anxious we're going to feel
Speaker 2: about it. And public speaking is unpredictable because like you
Speaker 2: and me, we don't don't have notes in our hands.
Speaker 2: We're just you know, talking, But we have the confidence
Speaker 2: in ourselves and we have the experience under our belt
Speaker 2: that I've done this before, I can do it again.
Speaker 2: And we're anxious because well I'm anxious because number one,
Speaker 2: I have an anxiety disorder. But too it's a mix
Speaker 2: of anxiety and excitement. But the circumstances that you're under
Speaker 2: for this meeting today. It's perfectly natural that you feel
Speaker 2: that way. And I you know, once you've once you've
Speaker 2: submitted and you've passed, and if you have a meeting,
Speaker 2: I imagine your anxiety will be a lot less because
Speaker 2: the outcome is known and the novelty, the questions, the
Speaker 2: uncertainty can can really be very threatening to our brain
Speaker 2: because the brain's like, well, I don't know what's happening here.
Speaker 2: Let's just put you on high alert because this feels dangerous.
Speaker 1: Lot. All right, I'm very bad at asking questions. I've
Speaker 1: got twenty questions. I've asked one, right, we definitely won't
Speaker 1: get through twenty. Our question two is how do we
Speaker 1: tell the difference between normal, garden variety worry and a
Speaker 1: clinical anxiety disorder? Like, what's the Yeah, how do we
Speaker 1: how do we know the difference?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the worry being a symptom of anxiety and
Speaker 2: a very prevalent symptom of anxiety. Lots of worries are
Speaker 2: a part of the picture, as well as lots of
Speaker 2: bodily symptoms. So really, what what we want to look
Speaker 2: at is fundamentally and there are there are checklists, and
Speaker 2: there are diagnostic tools, of course, but fundamentally, is it
Speaker 2: getting in the way of daily life? You know, is
Speaker 2: it frequent? Is it extreme? And is it stopping you
Speaker 2: the person from being able to do the things that
Speaker 2: you want to do. Is it stopping you from saying
Speaker 2: yes to catching up with some old friends that are
Speaker 2: you know, a reunion dinner for for your high school buddies,
Speaker 2: or is it stopping you from putting your hand up
Speaker 2: for that opportunity at work that's a step out of
Speaker 2: your comfort zone, It's a step up a level, and
Speaker 2: you're not sure of whether or not you'd be successful.
Speaker 2: You know, is it stopping you from being able to
Speaker 2: be present with your children because your mind is us
Speaker 2: We're focusing on things that may never happen, and we
Speaker 2: know from the research they're unlikely to happen. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: I think normal everyday anxiety will come and go with
Speaker 2: a stressful situation. And you know, my daughter recently had
Speaker 2: a job interview for a fast food restaurant and she
Speaker 2: had a job interview sit down with a manager and
Speaker 2: she had to answer questions about how does the previous
Speaker 2: experience you've had as a gymnastics coach and a babysitter.
Speaker 2: How what have you learned and how does that translate
Speaker 2: to you know, you potentially being a good candidate here,
Speaker 2: and that will create anxiety when you know you've got
Speaker 2: the interview, you'll probably be during it. But when it's over,
Speaker 2: it settles down. That's normal, all.
Speaker 1: Right, we're plowing on, Doc, and you're doing bloody great.
Speaker 1: Question three, like us like grown ups, asking and answering.
Speaker 1: Can you give us a snapshot of what's actually happening
Speaker 1: in someone's brain and body in the middle of a
Speaker 1: moment of anxiety or like an episode from want of
Speaker 1: a better Like what's happening in their brain, what's happening
Speaker 1: in their body? Just so people might be able to
Speaker 1: identify or relate.
Speaker 2: Oh I love these questions, Craig So, yes, absolutely. So. Basically,
Speaker 2: if we think about so we think about five senses.
Speaker 2: We think about our five senses, but we actually have
Speaker 2: other senses, and one of them is called neuroception, and
Speaker 2: that is the sense that is essentially scanning our environment
Speaker 2: all the time. So essentially we're looking out for cues
Speaker 2: of danger and safety wherever we go, wherever we are,
Speaker 2: and that could be from people, It could be from
Speaker 2: the environment. It just could be from unexpected sounds, noises, smells.
Speaker 2: So there's a part of our brain that is taking
Speaker 2: in that information and determining very very quickly whether we're
Speaker 2: safe or we're not. If we are in an environment
Speaker 2: that is detected determined to be unsafe for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: then it activates the stress response in the body. Because
Speaker 2: the brain doesn't know the difference between literally sitting down
Speaker 2: and opening up an email from your boss that says, hey,
Speaker 2: I needed to talk to you after lunch. That feels
Speaker 2: threatening because well, what do they want to talk to
Speaker 2: me about? What have I done wrong? All of the
Speaker 2: what if questions come. That is very activating because it
Speaker 2: feels threatening because we don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: The activation is same as if you were going down
Speaker 2: the street to get your coffee and you're on your
Speaker 2: phone and you're nearly step in front of a cart.
Speaker 2: The brain doesn't know the difference between a real threat
Speaker 2: to safety and one that's imagined or perceived. So the
Speaker 2: threat system is activated and through a series of changes
Speaker 2: that affect adrenaline, belief and activation of the sympathetic nervous system.
Speaker 2: So that's the branch of our nervous system that really
Speaker 2: helps us respond in times of stress. We get a
Speaker 2: whole lot of physical changes so that the changes in
Speaker 2: essence are to power up our bodies so that we
Speaker 2: can fight or flee. And those changes people will know
Speaker 2: very well. Racing heart sometimes pins and needles in the
Speaker 2: arms and legs, will have changes to our breathing, will
Speaker 2: have blood shunted from our dart to our arms and legs.
Speaker 2: We can run, we can fight, we can defend ourselves,
Speaker 2: we can keep ourselves safe, we can have changes to
Speaker 2: our vision. And you know, essentially all of these different
Speaker 2: physiological changes are there because our brain thinks we are
Speaker 2: in you know, danger of life threatening danger, and we
Speaker 2: need to be able to move quickly. So the thing
Speaker 2: about anxiety is that so that's when the stress response
Speaker 2: is activated. We feel all of this anxiety will activate
Speaker 2: that response. Just lying in bed at night and thinking,
Speaker 2: like our daughter recently got a concussion, harps. You knew
Speaker 2: about that, and there's a concussion. But like I'm lying
Speaker 2: in bed at night and I put my head on
Speaker 2: the pillow that are ready to go to sleep, and
Speaker 2: if my mind drifts to do you hope she's going
Speaker 2: to be okay. I wonder, really what the outcome of
Speaker 2: this kick to the head at football is going to be.
Speaker 2: Just thinking about that will activate that whole response, even
Speaker 2: though I'm safe, tucked in electric blanket on, snuggled down
Speaker 2: and warm. That's what gets activated. And so that's really
Speaker 2: what's happening in the brain and the body. And we
Speaker 2: often have a lot of worry because the brain is
Speaker 2: trying to understand the problem and worrying about what the
Speaker 2: outcome will be and trying to find some certainty around
Speaker 2: the situation that triggered the anxiety in the first place.
Speaker 1: So here's me, Craiger, find some of that. If I
Speaker 1: get it wrong, stop me. But I feel like we're
Speaker 1: talking about a physiological response. So elevated blood pressure, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol,
Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system, all of these things happening, blood going
Speaker 1: to your limbs, all that, all these physical changes physiology,
Speaker 1: which might be completely turned on or activated for one
Speaker 1: of a better term, by a non physical thing, which
Speaker 1: is an idea. The idea is, oh my god, something
Speaker 1: bad's going to happen. Now, let's just say in this
Speaker 1: story that I'm talking about nothing bad is going to happen,
Speaker 1: not in the foreseeable future. It's just a thought. So
Speaker 1: our body doesn't respond to what's real. It responds to
Speaker 1: the perception or the idea. Now, if I'm being like
Speaker 1: this sounds self defeating and self loathing. But in many ways,
Speaker 1: I am stressing. I am creating anxiety for me when
Speaker 1: anxiety or all this elevation of physiology is not at
Speaker 1: all required by the reality of the situation. So I
Speaker 1: make me stressed. I make me anxious via my stories. Now, one,
Speaker 1: if that's true, can we then, like mitigate that somewhat
Speaker 1: by changing our stories or what we pay attention to.
Speaker 2: Absolutely we can, And there are skills and practices that
Speaker 2: we can learn. And this gets back to what we
Speaker 2: were talking about at the beginning, that you can There's
Speaker 2: so much that we can do. It is a treatable
Speaker 2: mental illness, if you like. I don't usually like to
Speaker 2: call it that psychological challenge. It's treatable. We can't change.
Speaker 2: We can dial down the sensitivity of the alarm in
Speaker 2: our brain if you like, through certain practices like meditation.
Speaker 2: But the way we think can absolutely change the way
Speaker 2: that our body will respond to things that might previously
Speaker 2: have been very, very triggering and caused a full blown
Speaker 2: physiological response. Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, Yeah, I'm always curiosity, curiosity, I'm always curious around,
Speaker 1: you know, thinking about thinking, metacognition, and even with my
Speaker 1: own you know, I have a thought, you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: you have just fucking weird thought.
Speaker 2: Oh my idea.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm so glad no one lives in my
Speaker 1: head because that is a weird thought, right, But then
Speaker 1: to lean into that and go, you were one. That's
Speaker 1: weird too. I'm glad I can recognize its weirdness. But three,
Speaker 1: where does that come from? Like? What is that about?
Speaker 1: What is that? You know, when you start to get
Speaker 1: curious about how you think and you start to question
Speaker 1: your stories rather than automatically believe them, like that's a
Speaker 1: powerful kind of pause button to go yeah, yeah, I yeah,
Speaker 1: I am a piece of shit and then like, well,
Speaker 1: hang on, no, that's a story. The story is I'm
Speaker 1: a piece of shit. I'm unlovable, I'm not this, I'm
Speaker 1: not that enough, I'm too much of that. All right,
Speaker 1: let's just hit the pause button. Is it possible that
Speaker 1: that stuff's not true? Or some of it's not true,
Speaker 1: Is it possible? You know, then you start to reframe,
Speaker 1: you know, go on.
Speaker 2: It doesn't actually matter if it's true or not, because
Speaker 2: some of the stuff we are going to think is
Speaker 2: going to be true, and some of the stuff we're
Speaker 2: going to think is going to be false. What matters
Speaker 2: is what we are thinking about helpful And it's a
Speaker 2: very very different way of looking at it. But it's
Speaker 2: hard to sort of cut through the noise, you know,
Speaker 2: because our minds will race away and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: our mind's drifted. It's like when we're reading a book
Speaker 2: and we realize I have not read the last two pages.
Speaker 2: We recognize, okay, I've drifted. My attention is on something else.
Speaker 2: Have I put the bins out? That was the latest thing?
Speaker 2: You know, Like obviously my mind just went to, oh,
Speaker 2: the bins, you know, Cozy and company in bed and
Speaker 2: we've got a couple of hundred meter walk to put
Speaker 2: the bins out. Anyway, so we end up moving away
Speaker 2: from the present moment and we can get caught up
Speaker 2: in that. So we need to develop the skills to
Speaker 2: be more present of mind and when we can notice
Speaker 2: what we're thinking, Like you say, think about what we're thinking.
Speaker 2: One of the things I think I've shared before here,
Speaker 2: but really so worthwhile to share again. There's a very
Speaker 2: powerful strategy from the behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy.
Speaker 2: And this was a game changer for me because we
Speaker 2: do get very caught up in is it true or not?
Speaker 2: And then when we believe something's true, like you've got
Speaker 2: a mole on your arm and you think it's skin
Speaker 2: cancer that you know, the belief around that drives that
Speaker 2: sick feeling in that anxiety response. So what you can
Speaker 2: do is say, all right, you know, I'll use the
Speaker 2: freckle as the example. I'm having the thought that this
Speaker 2: this skin spot is cancerous. So I I've already stopped.
Speaker 2: I'm not spiraling anymore that oh my gosh, this is
Speaker 2: skin cancer and I'm going to die next week. Okay,
Speaker 2: I notice I'm having this thought about it. And then
Speaker 2: the next thing, the next step is it helpful? Well, actually,
Speaker 2: you know what that is something helpful to worry about.
Speaker 2: We should worry about because it could be a problem.
Speaker 2: How about we do something next. But I'm you know,
Speaker 2: I'm stupid, i can't do it. I'm not good enough.
Speaker 2: You know, they're so painful. They're so painful, those thoughts.
Speaker 2: But when we say that I'm having that, I'm noticing,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I'm not good enough? Is that helpful? Well, no,
Speaker 2: it's actually not. So what can I do next that
Speaker 2: would be helpful instead?
Speaker 1: Yeah? That makes sense? Good question? All right? Three down seveneen.
Speaker 2: Good answer, Good question, Chads.
Speaker 1: Question four. In your view, are we over pathologizing uncomfortable
Speaker 1: emotions or are we under treating genuine mental health issues
Speaker 1: or maybe option C, which is neither of the girls,
Speaker 1: all of the above, or a bit of both.
Speaker 2: Yes, we overpathologize difficult emotions. It is only human to
Speaker 2: feel a whole range of emotions, and I think we
Speaker 2: get sort of lulled into this trap of thinking that
Speaker 2: it's normal to be happy all the time, that that's
Speaker 2: really what life is about, which it's not. And it's
Speaker 2: actually not normal to be happy all the time. Nobody is,
Speaker 2: and the feelings, all feelings are really normal and human.
Speaker 2: And I read it quote the other day that joy
Speaker 2: is the matetriarch that can only arrive when all of
Speaker 2: her children have been welcomed, and it was a really
Speaker 2: profound quote. I think I put it in my newsletter
Speaker 2: last week. I'm probably butchering it a little bit, but
Speaker 2: you get the gist. I would dearly love, I would
Speaker 2: dearly love for everybody to know that whatever comes up
Speaker 2: for us, whatever we're feeling, even you know, we don't
Speaker 2: like it, we don't want to feel it, and so
Speaker 2: we try to struggle with it. We try to pretend
Speaker 2: it's not happening, distract ourselves, maybe numb ourselves with you know,
Speaker 2: chocolate or food, or drinking or drugs or what you
Speaker 2: name your vice. When overwhelmingly, when difficult emotions come up,
Speaker 2: when we can recognize that this is the experience we're having,
Speaker 2: and we can say to ourselves, I'm feeling so disappointed
Speaker 2: or I'm feeling terribly upset about this, so I'm so distressed,
Speaker 2: or I'm so overwhelmed right now, simply that idea of
Speaker 2: naming it, we know from the science, reduces the distress
Speaker 2: in itself. But when we can just sit and go, right, well,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to feel a bit like this for
Speaker 2: a while, I'm going to feel a bit crap for
Speaker 2: a while, I'm going to feel a bit sad for
Speaker 2: a while, and just go okay, well, that's just how
Speaker 2: I'm feeling at the moment, and then you know, we've
Speaker 2: acknowledged it. We've welcomed it, not because we want it
Speaker 2: to come back every day, but we're sort of not
Speaker 2: shoving the door, you know, closed. Then we process it
Speaker 2: because we have to move through what we feel. We
Speaker 2: try as we might. We can't go around under over
Speaker 2: or they do catch up with us as we know.
Speaker 2: So in terms of sort of the over pathologizing, like
Speaker 2: it is natural to feel devastated when you lose a
Speaker 2: loved one. It is natural to be sad for weeks,
Speaker 2: maybe months, even if you know you lose a pet.
Speaker 2: It's natural to feel terribly disappointed if you don't get
Speaker 2: the job that you've applied for. They're all natural. In
Speaker 2: terms of the other part of the question, which was
Speaker 2: related to are enough people? So, was it are enough
Speaker 2: people getting the help they need for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll challenge like is it over perthologized? Like are
Speaker 1: we just going everyone who's having a bad day, Oh,
Speaker 1: you've got this, you've got that. It's like I feel
Speaker 1: like people are given labels. You just go somewhere and
Speaker 1: it's like you've got this, you need that, you need
Speaker 1: this medication and I'm I'm not trying at all being insensitive.
Speaker 1: I'm like, is it possible that I'm actually just a
Speaker 1: regular human having a shit day? And shit days are
Speaker 1: just normal part of the human experience. It's not an illness,
Speaker 1: it's human. Is there that? Or and the part B
Speaker 1: was or are we under treating genuine you know issues
Speaker 1: mental health issues?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are a lot of people who are
Speaker 2: struggling with their mental health who aren't connecting with help
Speaker 2: and support, and so I think I think it's probably
Speaker 2: you know, it's a d you know, a little bit
Speaker 2: of the above, which is it's so human, Like, I mean,
Speaker 2: terrible things happen to us because you know, to to
Speaker 2: live the lives that we have with meaning we're going
Speaker 2: to care about things, and things don't always go the
Speaker 2: way we want. You Inevitably the people we love will die.
Speaker 2: We will too, and so these things are bloody painful.
Speaker 2: But there is obviously that point at which you know,
Speaker 2: we can have our normal emotions that we move through
Speaker 2: day to day versus emotions whether that be anxiety or
Speaker 2: sadness or anger, that overwhelm us and are hanging around
Speaker 2: for a long time and getting in the way of
Speaker 2: our relationships, our work. There's that too. So yeah, that's
Speaker 2: a complicated answer. I suppose all right, good.
Speaker 1: You're going well, so far elephant stamp for you?
Speaker 2: Oh what the golds does?
Speaker 1: So this one is more personal, right, So could you
Speaker 1: tell us one thing other than medication? Like, I only
Speaker 1: want one and maybe there is not one at the
Speaker 1: top of the list, but I just want one that
Speaker 1: is at the top of the list or near the
Speaker 1: top of the list. A protocol, a practice, a habit
Speaker 1: that works best for you in alleviating the mayhem of anxiety.
Speaker 1: So other than taking im ds, what is one thing,
Speaker 1: one practice or ritual that you have that's really proven
Speaker 1: to be valuable.
Speaker 2: It's my breath and it is frequently during the day
Speaker 2: lengthening my exhale, and I sometimes try to remember to
Speaker 2: do the physiological side, which requires an extra inhalation. So
Speaker 2: it would be like.
Speaker 1: This, right, So just describe for people who are only
Speaker 1: listening because we didn't hear it described for people. Sorry,
Speaker 1: that's all right. Describe for people what you just did.
Speaker 2: Okay, So Number one, the thing that helps me the
Speaker 2: most is lengthening my exhale. So when I realize I'm stressed,
Speaker 2: I will just almost automatically go to that as a strategy,
Speaker 2: so slow my breathing length and my exhal out. I
Speaker 2: don't count it. I just slow down and lengthen it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I am doing a more deliberate breathing practice,
Speaker 2: I'll use a version of that where you breathing inhal
Speaker 2: through your notes fully.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And then.
Speaker 2: There's a tiny little bit extra that if you just
Speaker 2: do a little extra inhalation at the top, like a
Speaker 2: little sip, a little sniff at the top of that
Speaker 2: inhalation through oat. So that's true, and then length in
Speaker 2: your exal that's called the physiological site. And I find
Speaker 2: that to be profound in the way that it helps
Speaker 2: me settle my nervous system very very quickly when I'm anxious.
Speaker 1: Love it. I think that's yeah. I do a similar thing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of. I do a bit of box breathing, but
Speaker 1: it's in the same wheelhouse. I wrote a thing the
Speaker 1: other day. I want to ask you a question off
Speaker 1: the back of this thing. So I wrote this for
Speaker 1: social media. The heading or the the title is not
Speaker 1: special in brackets, and that's okay. Maybe someone told you
Speaker 1: that you're special and amazing and gifted and unique. But
Speaker 1: what if you're not. What if you're a regular human
Speaker 1: who has to work hard like me, one who fucks
Speaker 1: up and gets back up, one who tries harder and
Speaker 1: then tries harder, one who develops skill and confidence and
Speaker 1: competence and maybe even mastery through effort and courage and
Speaker 1: discipline and repetition. What if, despite not being the unicorn,
Speaker 1: you decide to explore your outer limits to optimize what
Speaker 1: you have to work with, to outperform your fear and
Speaker 1: self doubt and overthinking mind. And if you do, I'll
Speaker 1: be cheering you on. My question around that is, I'm
Speaker 1: not a parent, so I wouldn't even pretend to have
Speaker 1: any unique insight into parenting or working with kids in
Speaker 1: this kind of cognitive, psychological, sociological kind of space. But
Speaker 1: what's the the balance between, you know, every time your
Speaker 1: kid's got like the slightest thing, you run in there
Speaker 1: with the nerf gun and the safety net and the
Speaker 1: warm blanket and the cuddle and then and you're always
Speaker 1: protecting them and always, And I get it, I understand
Speaker 1: the compulsion to do that, But what's the cost of
Speaker 1: not letting kids fall over or have a hard day
Speaker 1: or come last, and you go, You're not special. You're
Speaker 1: loved by me, and you're special to me. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying I would say to a kid, you're not do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? I mean, this is just
Speaker 1: the reality of the world is that not everyone is
Speaker 1: fucking special. But we have this story like I am
Speaker 1: and I'm not throwing myself under the bus, but i
Speaker 1: know my skills and abilities and talents and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: so not fucking special. And people go, oh, and that
Speaker 1: makes people feel uncomfortable. Even when I say that, people
Speaker 1: feel like they've got to come in and say no,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm fucking not. I'm not looking for attention
Speaker 1: or approval of validation. I don't need and I appreciate
Speaker 1: the love and the kindness and the empty but I'm not.
Speaker 1: There are some things that I'm good at, and that's
Speaker 1: mainly through work and effort and repetition. There are some
Speaker 1: things I'm shit at and also that's okay, Like how
Speaker 1: do we juggle this thing where you know, like we
Speaker 1: want simultaneously want to care about people and love people,
Speaker 1: and or also we need people to be resilient and
Speaker 1: if they never have to do hard things, or feel
Speaker 1: hard things, or make hard decisions, or get uncomfortable or
Speaker 1: fall down or be embarrassed or look like an idiot,
Speaker 1: because all of those are the human experience. By the way,
Speaker 1: if we're trying to constantly protect them from a feeling
Speaker 1: anything bad or experiencing anything hard, how does that work?
Speaker 2: It doesn't work very well. And it's a there's a
Speaker 2: false kind of belief that that you you know, for
Speaker 2: some for some parents, And look, parenting is so difficult,
Speaker 2: and I'm no parenting expert, and people people respond as
Speaker 2: parents because of the way that they were raised, and
Speaker 2: you know, the different sort of stories and experiences and
Speaker 2: beliefs in their own lives. But what I can say
Speaker 2: is that you know that there's that old saying, isn't
Speaker 2: it bamboo only gains its strength in the wind. It's
Speaker 2: it's we we only we only learn what we can
Speaker 2: cope with by coupling with stuff. That's the only way
Speaker 2: we learn. We learn that if we you know, when
Speaker 2: you're little, if you get wet socks because you jumped
Speaker 2: in a muddy paddle that was too deep and the
Speaker 2: water went in your gum boot. Yes it's cold, Yes
Speaker 2: it's unexpected. Takes you by surprise, but you know what,
Speaker 2: you realize we can just whip that sock off, pull
Speaker 2: the water out, put the boot back on, get on
Speaker 2: with having some fun, like you know, right through to
Speaker 2: losing people in our lives, like I lost my gorgeous
Speaker 2: dear Annie jen and last October from a stroke, and
Speaker 2: it's so devastating, and you do feel at the time
Speaker 2: like you'll never get through it, and that it's so
Speaker 2: painful and distressing, but you learn through time and experience
Speaker 2: that you actually do, you do get through it, and
Speaker 2: so instinctively, as parents, our job is to keep our
Speaker 2: kids safe. Of course, don't let them run on the road,
Speaker 2: and don't let them fall from the monkey bars if
Speaker 2: it's too far a drop, you know, of course, but
Speaker 2: we do. There's not enough risk taking, and it's through
Speaker 2: risk taking and play that young people actually learn to
Speaker 2: push on the edges of those boundaries and to manage,
Speaker 2: you know, stretching themselves a little bit and experiencing a
Speaker 2: little bit of fear, but knowing you know where the
Speaker 2: boundaries are, and then stretching those a little bit more
Speaker 2: so you know, I also know that like as a
Speaker 2: parent myself, like you have to let your kids stuff
Speaker 2: up and fail, and you just have to because that's
Speaker 2: they'll learn through those experiences. And our job isn't to
Speaker 2: keep them safe from everything. It's to prepare them for,
Speaker 2: you know, spreading their wings getting out to the big
Speaker 2: wide world, which is not very precious.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and that's the thing, right, I need
Speaker 1: to be careful here. But so I've got and had
Speaker 1: friends over the years who and people that I know
Speaker 1: well and not so well. And it's not that their
Speaker 1: kids are bad kids, they're not at all, but they've
Speaker 1: just been so sheltered, so protected. Then they literally become
Speaker 1: an adult. Okay, now they can drive, now, they can vote, now,
Speaker 1: they can drink alcohol. Now they're going to go get
Speaker 1: a job or go to university, and they are like
Speaker 1: adults twelve year olds who oh yeah they can they
Speaker 1: can land the Space Shuttle with their phone, but they
Speaker 1: can't have a hard conversation. They can't go in for
Speaker 1: a job interview and look someone in the eye. They can't.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I think that, and I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but the challenges, yes, doing what you
Speaker 1: were talking about. Yeah, we've got to love them, protect
Speaker 1: them to a point but then also allow them to
Speaker 1: have experiences where they can build resilience and competence and
Speaker 1: capacity and understanding and situational awareness and social awareness and
Speaker 1: all of these things where you're like, right, you're an
Speaker 1: adult now. I mean, I've got friends who've got twenty
Speaker 1: five year old kids who are like big babies. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're well and truly grown ups, but oh my god,
Speaker 1: the relationship is so fucking dysfunctional, and it's you.
Speaker 2: Know, well meaning loving parents can often do their kids
Speaker 2: a huge disservice, and we've all done it. We've all
Speaker 2: stepped in when we kind of realize in hindsight, oh,
Speaker 2: I should have let that, you know, let that unbold
Speaker 2: you know, you know we don't. But it's our pain
Speaker 2: that we're trying. We have to learn to tolerate our
Speaker 2: pain and our distress around the failure, whether it's not
Speaker 2: getting the job, or or breaking up with the boyfriend
Speaker 2: or girlfriend, or not getting the atar you know that
Speaker 2: you need for the course that you want to get into.
Speaker 2: But coming back to the you being special, I think
Speaker 2: one of the things I think about is that you
Speaker 2: do a lot of very special things. You've worked very
Speaker 2: very hard and developed skills and with a perseverance, unlike
Speaker 2: most people I know to be in a position where
Speaker 2: you're doing a lot of wonderful things that that people
Speaker 2: really admire about you. And it's hard, I think sometimes
Speaker 2: when you don't see what's sort of turning behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: behind the curtain of all the work that comes to it,
Speaker 2: it's hard sometimes to kind of hold the two things
Speaker 2: at the same time. That you speak in front of
Speaker 2: big groups you loved and adored through your podcast and
Speaker 2: through your community and your workshops, and you've written your
Speaker 2: books and you sought after in so many ways. You're
Speaker 2: finishing a PhD in your sixties. Those things are special
Speaker 2: things to have achieved. But yeah, it's hard sometimes I
Speaker 2: think to think, well, there's got to be something really
Speaker 2: special about this person who's done all this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, thank you, I appreciate all that. I This
Speaker 1: is not my recommendation everyone, This is not what I
Speaker 1: think you all should be. But for me, I've kind
Speaker 1: of different rules for me. I think I should be
Speaker 1: hard on me, but not in a self loathing way, right,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, like my PhD is largely around
Speaker 1: self awareness, situational awareness, social awareness, self other awareness, as
Speaker 1: it's called in some research, but anyway, it's like, I like,
Speaker 1: there's no bigger critic in the world of me than me. Now,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean I think I'm shit. I don't think
Speaker 1: I'm shit. I also don't think I'm a gift to
Speaker 1: the world. I don't think that at all, Right, But
Speaker 1: I think it's this juxtaposition of being able to love
Speaker 1: yourself in a healthy, not egotistical, but a healthy, emotionally
Speaker 1: healthy way, right, but also go, yeah, I fuck that
Speaker 1: thing up and I'm the problem, so I need to
Speaker 1: undo it or fix it. And it's not mum and
Speaker 1: Dad's fault, and it's not my genetics, and it's not
Speaker 1: the boss, and it's not the government, and it's not
Speaker 1: the weather, and it's not the situation. It's me. It's
Speaker 1: very hard. We've had this conversation many times on this show,
Speaker 1: like people want feedback until you give them feedback, Like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I love feedback. No, you don't. You love praise,
Speaker 1: you love support, you love all of those things. And
Speaker 1: I don't blame you. Me too. When someone tells me,
Speaker 1: I mace like you kind of just did, it's lovely.
Speaker 1: It's great for my ego. However, there's a lot more
Speaker 1: to me than the good stuff. You know, there's all
Speaker 1: the fuck ups. There's all the things I've had to
Speaker 1: do and undo and repair, and you know, there's my
Speaker 1: ego and my shitty self worth and all of my
Speaker 1: body image issues over the years, and all of the
Speaker 1: behaviors that I hid from people because I was embarrassed,
Speaker 1: because I wanted them to see me in a certain light,
Speaker 1: so I'd eat a certain way publicly, and I'd need
Speaker 1: a different way privately, And you know, all of this
Speaker 1: very human, not very special, not very desirable stuff. You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: so you're pretty fucked up.
Speaker 2: Well I was.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm probably still a bit fucked up. But
Speaker 1: I'm a work in progress, and so I think that
Speaker 1: to be able to go. Look, I'm better than I was.
Speaker 1: I've still got work to go and I'm really trying.
Speaker 1: And but you know, there are things that I still
Speaker 1: don't do well, and some things I do do well
Speaker 1: without getting trapped in the emotion of it all like
Speaker 1: oh poor me, And it's like, well, of course people
Speaker 1: don't give a shit about you sometimes, like have you
Speaker 1: been out into the world. You know, some people want
Speaker 1: you to fail, right, of course, Now I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that's good. It's terrible. But it's just part of the
Speaker 1: human experience, you know. Do I get people send me
Speaker 1: fucking horrible messages? Of course, it's an inevitability. If you
Speaker 1: write enough stuff and say enough things and have a
Speaker 1: big enough audience. Of course, some people are gonna hate me. Okay,
Speaker 1: So if you don't want any of that, Craig, then
Speaker 1: get off social media. Don't say anything, don't have a podcast,
Speaker 1: don't have a voice, step away from the public, go
Speaker 1: live in the bush, our complant some veggie. Shut the
Speaker 1: fuck up, get a golden retriever. Actually, this is sounding
Speaker 1: very as it's coming out of my mouth. I'm like,
Speaker 1: am I not doing that? Hey, Jody, we've got to
Speaker 1: wind up. You're great. Tell people how to get your books,
Speaker 1: listen to your show, give them the whole Jody spiel again,
Speaker 1: if you would, please and thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh Craig, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for having me,
Speaker 2: and I really enjoyed this conversation. Oh yes, please just
Speaker 2: google me d dr So it's Dr Jody with an
Speaker 2: I j O. D. I. Richardson dot com is my website.
Speaker 2: You'll find me on Instagram, and LinkedIn and Craig, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to say what it is, but next time
Speaker 2: we talk, I will be able to announce that I've
Speaker 2: got something very special that I am going to be
Speaker 2: releasing into the world, So I'll tell you off air.
Speaker 2: But yeah, next time we talk, a jump to a
Speaker 2: newsletter please if you'd like to be the first to know.
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's on the bottom of my landing page
Speaker 2: on my website. Yeah. I'm really excited to Chouse in
Speaker 2: the making. Huge amount of work, poured my heart and
Speaker 2: soul into it.
Speaker 1: So yes, well, grats a preliminary congrats. That is exciting.
Speaker 1: Jody's podcast is called will Hello Anxiety, so give that
Speaker 1: a listen. I will say goodbye in a mini but
Speaker 1: for now, thanks
Speaker 2: Doc, Thanks Craig, thank you,