1 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Charzad Jalali, Welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: Thank you. 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 3: That's fine. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: I hope, I hope my pronunciation was somewhere in the 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: ballpark of correct. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: And so you are a clinical psychologist, but you're trained 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: in linguistics. 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 4: So where did the. 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: Transition come and do you find your background in linguistics 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: useful in your clinical practice? 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 2: Yes. I almost finished a PhD in linguistics, and at 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: the time, I think I went through what I suppose 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: cause a midlife crisis. I was in my late twenties 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: and I felt like I didn't belong and things weren't 16 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: going to way I had envisioned them too. So I 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: started to do therapy and throughout that process it was 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: so eye opening for me and life changing that I 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: took a sabat a call and I moved to Italy 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: for three months to learn Italian. And throughout this process, 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 2: I think I was just doing a lot of soul 22 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: searching and the goal was always to come back and 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: finish my PhD in linguistics, and just you know, I 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: had a trajectory set up for me that I was 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: going to follow. But somehow, throughout that process, I decided 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: to move back to the US because I grew up 27 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: here and go back to school and study psychology. And 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: it was very scary because you know, by the end 29 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: of your twenties you're supposed to kind of start your life, 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: building your life, not go back to school again. But 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: I took a risk, and there hasn't been one day 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: that I regret that, I have to admit it. 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 5: That is a pretty bold move from being part way 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 5: through or a big chunk way through a PhD and 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 5: about to get your pH d and then going back. 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: Did you go back to undergrad or did you mind knows? 37 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: I had to just take some undergrad classes that I 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: hadn't taken because psychology wasn't my major, but the athority 39 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: of my courses obviously were approved. But I got another 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: master in marriage and family therapy, and then I got 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: my doctorate in clinical psych So there was many years 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: of schooling after that. 43 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: Say, my goodness, you'd have spent a fur bit of 44 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: time at university. 45 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 4: You probably beaten me actually in the amount of time 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 4: you spent at Uni. 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Now you are very interested in actually, before we do that, 48 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: what are you seeing there in the landscape in terms 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: of clients? 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 4: Is there are you. 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: Noticing any particular trends or changes in trends there or 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: is it being very similar since she started practicing as 53 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist. 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: You know, I have to say what I am seeing 55 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: that I guess captures my attention. Is people tend to 56 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: become more and more disregulated, more and more quickly. And 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: if I had to guess why, because the nervous system 58 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: usually responds to safety, or lack of for that matter. 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: So my assumption is a lot of people are experiencing, 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: whether it's a perception or reality, lack of safety. Now 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: this could be emotional, it could be societal, it could 62 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: be financial. But people tend to be reactive when they 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: feel less safe, and it seems like the environment these 64 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: days is taking us towards that domain more and more. 65 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and interesting you talk about the nervous system, which 66 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: I think is hugely important in psychology. I mean, I'm 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: a psychophysiologist and I'm not a clinical. 68 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: Psychologist, but I have a PhD. 69 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 3: But also. 70 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: Master's to be in exercise science and nutrition, and for me, 71 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: the nervous system, the interaction between physiology and psychology is 72 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: has been I think historically underappreciated when it comes to 73 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: mental health. 74 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: Conditions. 75 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with you. More and more research is 76 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: demonstrating that a lot of what happens and the psyche 77 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: is actually rooted in the body, and therefore I have 78 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: a very holistic approach in treating patients because not only 79 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: I think the body kind of essentially houses a lot 80 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: of what we go through from a psychological perspective, but 81 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 2: on top of that, it's much easier to get to 82 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: the psyche from the body because we can't really access 83 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: our psyche very clearly. But if you learn how to 84 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: work with our body, we can definitely impact our psyche. 85 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: I would say it's a shortcut for those of us 86 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: who aren't very depth oriented when it comes to our psyche. 87 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: So I absolutely believe that this is where the future 88 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: of psychology is for sure. 89 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very interesting. My wife's a counselor. 90 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: And she's really got into the to that realm of 91 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: looking at how the body influences it. 92 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 4: Have you read, is it, Basil vander Klop The body 93 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 4: keeps score. 94 00:05:58,680 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: Yes. 95 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: I presume with your background because you do somatic work 96 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: as well, right, so I presume that you're all over 97 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: this like. 98 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 4: A spider monkey, as. 99 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: I say, I would say that's right. 100 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: What about polyvehicle theory are you? Are you a fan 101 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: of that? 102 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 5: You know what I. 103 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: Feel like, there's a lot of truth too. Obviously I 104 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: am not a physiologist, so my area of knowledge around 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: it is what I have read in papers and how 106 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: the vagus term impacts our nervous system. So from what 107 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: I read, I find a lot of correlation and truth. 108 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: But I think that's an area that's still not as 109 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: well researched as you know, the potential, So hopefully we'll 110 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: have more information as we go forward. 111 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 112 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now you also have a. 113 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: Background in union psychology, so called young and who was 114 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: obviously a very sharp He was big into dreams, wasn't 115 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: he he was? 116 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: Yes, So Yung was a student of Freud, and the 117 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: difference between their philosophy is mainly that Freud looked at 118 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: everything as our individual unconscious, and Jung took that a 119 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: step further and said, yes, we do have an individual unconscious, 120 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: but we all also have a collective unconscious, and so 121 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: everything that everyone before us has endured and gone through 122 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: and worked through actually impacts our psychology. So as far 123 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: as Freud was concerned, a lot of things were mainly sexual, 124 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: So He has stages of sexual development in humans and 125 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: how they impact us, or interruption in each stage impacts us. 126 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: Jun had more of a spiritual approach. He seemed to 127 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: believe that humans are in the distresses that they're in 128 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: due to their disc connection with spirituality. For the most part, 129 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: I like to think that they both made a lot 130 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: of good points, and in many ways, Yung's association with 131 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: psychology resonates more with me. He seems to have a 132 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: philosophical approach that I find very helpful in making treatment 133 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: plants and working with clients. So there's a lot of 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 2: working with the unconscious, and as you know, the language 135 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: of the unconsciousness our fantasies and our dreams, and that's 136 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: where his dream interpretation comes in, because what the psyche 137 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 2: is not able to deal with when you're awake comes 138 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: to the forefront when we're dreaming, and it's very symbolic, 139 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: and each of us, as you know, has such kind 140 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: of I would say, intricate personalized dreams, which reflec legs 141 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: are unconscious. So digging into that with the clients provides 142 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: them with the roadmap to their own unconscious and helps 143 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: them understand their psyche much better. 144 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: So is that a big part of your working with 145 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: clients in the therapeutic relationship? 146 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 4: Do you explore their dreams? 147 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: And is that always the case or is that just 148 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: if somebody is more open to it? 149 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: I like to say in my approach, is always the case? 150 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: Does the client always display the desire or the ability 151 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: to connect with it? Not always. I think people have 152 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: to get to a point where they're thinking about situations 153 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 2: a little bit more in dept and having more of 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: a I would say therapeutic association with wanting to deal 155 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: with whatever it is that's bringing them to therapy. Usually 156 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: when people come in under in crisis, all they want 157 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: to do is find the solution to their crisis, and 158 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: that's what usually brings people in. But people who sort 159 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: of pass that and get to the next level of 160 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: actually working under psyche usually have more of a willingness 161 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: for it. 162 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha. 163 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: So when when you've fixed the immediate problem, the big 164 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: flashing problem, then it's more that exploration of consciousness and 165 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: these sorts of. 166 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 4: Things that you use the dreams for. Is that yes? 167 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: So initially when I went to school, I was trained 168 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 2: in the cognitive model. As you know, that's what insurances 169 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 2: and doors at the moment, and we are a society 170 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: of wanting really quick fixes for you situations that rise up. 171 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: So I actually went and took a seminar with David 172 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: Burns his up in Palo Alto, and he's very big 173 00:10:54,160 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: after back in the cognitive approach, and I felt like 174 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: I had the Bible and I was good to go. 175 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: And I started to see patients and I've got a 176 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: lot of good results. I mean, a patient would come 177 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: and tell me I'm afraid of getting into an elevator, 178 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: and then I would do my magic and then they 179 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: would go and they would feel okay, and you know, 180 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: everything was good until the same patient would call me 181 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: a year later and say, you know what, doctor Jeli, 182 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: I'm still good with the elevator thing, but now I 183 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: can't get into a cap to save my life. And 184 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: I wonder where this is coming from. And then I 185 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: would sit down with the patient again trying to get 186 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: to the root of this. And that's when I realized, 187 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: as wonderful and amazing as cognitive approaches are, and I 188 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: still use a lot of them in my work, they 189 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 2: fall short because we're not really getting to the root 190 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: of where is this fear coming from and why was 191 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: it formed? To begin with? What is what is it 192 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: doing for the client? How is it serving a client? 193 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: And that's when I decided to delve into this realm 194 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,239 Speaker 2: a little bit more, and I looked into different analytical 195 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: approaches and as I said, you really resonated with me. 196 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: So I started affiliating myself with the Union Institute in 197 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: Los Angeles and taking their courses and getting mentorship, and. 198 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: So give us the high level overview for the people 199 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: who are not students of psychology, just at a high level, 200 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: what how are those approaches different? The psychoanalytical therapies on 201 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: one side, and then the cognitive therapies, whether it's CBT 202 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: or acceptance commitment therapy or any of those. What are 203 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: the fundamental differences that that maybe a client would experience 204 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: as they come in. 205 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: Yes, CBT is a lot more fact based, homework based 206 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: spreadsheets and targeting, for example, a negative thought and reframing 207 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: it into a more positive thought. More skilled based in 208 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: the sense that you learn a technique, you apply it 209 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: to a particular situation and you get a different result. 210 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: Analytical psychology not so much. Analytical psychology is very much 211 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: depth oriented. It gets to the root of why that thought. 212 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: For example, that negative thought is there to begin with. 213 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: So it's not so much concerned with reframing the negative 214 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: thought into a positive one. Although I think that's something 215 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: that happens as a result of working on it, it's 216 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: not necessarily the therapeutic goal. The therapeutic goal is to 217 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: understand the human psyche and to figure out why the 218 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: unconscious is running the show the way it is, and 219 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: what do we have to do to put potentially have 220 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: a different outlook on the matter. So it's a little 221 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: bit more sophisticated, I want to say, and more complicated 222 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: than your average cognitive approaches. 223 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: And how big is childhood in the psychoanalytical realm? 224 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 4: I think I know the answer to that. But just 225 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: give us an. 226 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: Example of how childhood can influence things liater in life 227 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: that are completely subconscious reactions that someone may not have 228 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: a clue about. But then through that therapeutic process you 229 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: kind of unpack why it's there in the first place, 230 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: talk us through what that looks like. 231 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: So obviously, most analysts believe that whatever happens to us 232 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: in the first five years of our lives essentially dictates 233 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: how our unconscious or our personality gets formed. 234 00:14:59,240 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 4: Right. 235 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: Having said that, it does not mean that when you're 236 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: doing analytical work you're necessarily rooted in those childhood years 237 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: and working through them. What that means is you recognize 238 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: that certain complexes, as you calls them, for example, the 239 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: mother complex the father complex, which are ways that we 240 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: come to see the world, are rooted in those initial 241 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: years of your life, but they are dominating your life 242 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: as an adult. So what we want to do in 243 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: therapy is not to necessarily go back and do something 244 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: about that, because there's nothing you can do. You were 245 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: born into a particular family and you had a particular 246 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: life trajectory. But what you can do is develop a 247 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: different way to respond to that complex at the moment. 248 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: To give you an example, I once worked with a 249 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: woman who when her mother gave birth to her, she 250 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: passed away. This was back in the day that they 251 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: didn't have very good medical interventions and a lot of 252 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: women would die at childbirth. And my patient grew up 253 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: an orphan and as such, she had this orphan complex 254 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: that she carried with her thinking that the world doesn't 255 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: want me. I am not wanted, I'm not appreciated, I'm 256 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: not loved, and she worked in a law firm. At 257 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: this point when I was working with her, she was 258 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: probably sixty year old woman, and at one point we 259 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: worked through her complex. We did about two years of 260 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: work together, and one day she called me crying and I 261 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: thought she had an emergency, so I responded and she 262 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: couldn't stop crying, and I kept on asking her, are 263 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: you okay? And she said, therapy works. And I said 264 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: why what happened? It was near Christmas time and she said, well, 265 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: I came to work today and I noticed that everyone 266 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: was talking about this Christmas party that one of the 267 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: people at work is hosting. And I looked on my desk. 268 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 2: There was no invitation for me. And she had worked 269 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: in that offer for many, many years, and she's like, 270 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: I got upset. I packed up a box and I 271 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: decided to quit my job. I wrote a resignation letter 272 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: and I said, no one really wants me here. They 273 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 2: don't even include me in a simple celebration, and she's like. 274 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: I went to leave the letter at my boss's desk 275 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: and I stopped and I said, wait a second, this 276 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 2: is not me. This is my complex. And I was 277 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: able to step out of it. And not do that. 278 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: And sure enough, when she returned back to her desk, 279 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: one of the ladies walked up to her and said, oh, 280 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 2: your invitation was stuck to mine and gave it to her, 281 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: and she realized it was a misunderstanding, but she said, 282 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: if this was me three years ago, I would I 283 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: would have reacted to that situation because the complex was 284 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: dominating my life. The complex is still there, but now 285 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: I've learned how to respond to it instead of reacting 286 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: to it. Now it doesn't run the show. I am 287 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: in charge of the complex, right and that's what analytical 288 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: work does. 289 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: And presumably there's a whole host of different complex So 290 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: you talked about the mother complex, the father complex, you 291 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: talked about the orphan complex. So give us an example 292 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: of some other of the known complexes that affect people, 293 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: and basically they maybe explore how some of these things 294 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: could have served you well when you're younger, but are 295 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: no longer serving you well, nigh, and how the disentangle 296 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: those things. 297 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 2: You know what, That's a great question. People always ask 298 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: me about this in therapy, and I can tell you, 299 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: as we have an array of complexes, I don't think 300 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: there is a limit to them as much as humans 301 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: exist and they deal with such we have complexes around 302 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: those issues. For example, we have money complex, whether you're 303 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: overspending or underspending, or how much money dominates your life. 304 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 2: Let's say you feel like you have to work a 305 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 2: lot and be very successful, otherwise your life doesn't matter. 306 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: This is a form of success complex or money complex. 307 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: Anything that you're not in resolution around in your life 308 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: can potentially be a complex. It's a situation or a 309 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 2: notion that you've developed not a healthy relationship with. Now 310 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 2: it can go either way. 311 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: So let's flip over and talk about your work on 312 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: the somatic side of things. So you talk about a 313 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: body body centered approaches to trauma, and can you expand 314 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: on that a little bit and tell us how that 315 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: has become a part of your practice. 316 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: Yes. So, as you pointed out earlier, a lot of 317 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: the new research alludes to the fact that trauma actually 318 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: gets processed in the body, and if we don't have 319 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: a proper way of releasing it from the body, it 320 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: continues to get stored in the body and stays there. Therefore, 321 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: our physiology continues to be reactive to a particular event. 322 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: So many scholars have gone about this from different perspectives. 323 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure you're familiar with Peter Levine's work. He has 324 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: created this modality called somatic experiencing. If I want to 325 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: put in very simple terms, he pretty much brings your 326 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: attention to the way your body stores emotions. So, when 327 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: you're feeling anxious, how does your body house that anxiety? 328 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: How do you know you're anxious? Is it that your 329 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: heart is beating faster? Is it that your stomach feels 330 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: like there's butterflies? Is it that you tense your muscles? 331 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: Is it that you have pain somewhere in your body? 332 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: So by bringing attention to that dynamic, it makes it 333 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: easy to treat the anxiety. Because every particular emotions is 334 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: associated with a particular thought or a few different thoughts 335 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: and a few different physiological responses. We can manipulate the 336 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,239 Speaker 2: emotion itself necessarily, but we can manipulate our thoughts and 337 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: our physiology to a great extent if we learn how to. 338 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: So by doing that, what we essentially do is we 339 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: impact the emotion without necessarily addressing the emotion by creating 340 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: space in the body. There are other approaches that do 341 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: the same thing, brain spotting emdr They all have their 342 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: own garbage and their own dynamics around explaining this notion. 343 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: But essentially I would say they are all using physiological 344 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: responses to treat psychological distress. 345 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: So e M d R eye movement, desensitization, retreating, if. 346 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 4: I'm correct, which. 347 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: Uses Just explain for our listeners who may not be 348 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 1: familiar with these things. Explain what e M d R is, 349 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: just at a high level and maybe how it's supposed 350 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: to work. Because I read some research on that, I'm 351 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: just blown away. And then Brian Spotting. I've never heard 352 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: of Brian Spotting, So so just just give us just 353 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: a top level overview of what that is. 354 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 2: Yes, So in e M d R, what happens is 355 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: we use actually eye movement when we are working on 356 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: a piece of trauma. So it works on the idea 357 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 2: that trauma gets stuck in the brain's memory network in 358 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: its raw emotional form. When that happens, ordinary reminders can 359 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: trigger the same physiological distress as the original event, and 360 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 2: ember helps the brain reprocess these memories so they are 361 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: stored adaptively without the overwhelming charge. So the therapist ask 362 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: the client to bring a distressing image or memory to 363 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: mind and then they are at the same time engaging 364 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: in bilateral stimulation. Right, so your gaze moves from the 365 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 2: right to the left, rapid eye movement. You can use 366 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 2: your hand to guide this. You can just ask the 367 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: client to change their gaze. There are light bars and 368 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: stuff that some people use. You can even use altering 369 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: taps or tones between the left and the right. People 370 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 2: can do this with music that you hear from one 371 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 2: year and then the other. And then the assumption is 372 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: when you think of a piece of trauma and you 373 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: engage that bilateral stimulation in the brain, you have the 374 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: ability to reduce the overreaction of the magdala, increase prefrontal regulation, 375 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: and restore connectivity in the hypocampus, which helps with the 376 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: integration of the positive memory versus the original response the 377 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: patient was having. So we use it for things like 378 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: phobias and panic, complicated grief, chronic pain, performance, anxiety, or 379 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: any kind of I would say distressful emotional experience the 380 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 2: client has experienced in the past. 381 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: It's also has it been used for pts as well? 382 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: Yes, because I think, as you said rightly, I remember 383 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: doing some work with Evy and Gordon many years ago 384 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: from the Brian Resource Institute, and he was saying PTSD 385 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: is basically. 386 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 4: The memory getting caught in a loop and not being 387 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 4: processed correctly. 388 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: And as you said, the a md R can help 389 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: change the process and then dample, damp and down the amigdala, 390 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: which is just it's fascinating stuff, isn't it. Hi, Moving 391 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: your eyes while thinking about something can actually change. 392 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 4: How that emotion runs in your brain. It's just bonkers fascinating. 393 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: Yes. 394 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: So what about Brian Spotting? Never heard of it? 395 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: Yes, find spotting I would say has probably not gained 396 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 2: as much traction, but I personally like it a lot. 397 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: In fact, as a patient and as a clinician, I 398 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: it's a powerful brain body based psychotherapy that helps clients 399 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 2: process trauma, emotional trauma that is obviously rooted in their psyche. 400 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: It was developed by David Grant, I believe. Don't quote 401 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: me on this, but I believe in two thousand and 402 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: three it actually grew out of EMDR And it's often 403 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: described as where you look affects how you feel. So 404 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: in brain spotting, we use a pointer and we bring 405 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 2: the client's attention to a particular traumatic event and we 406 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: move the pointer around the central premise of brain spotting 407 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 2: is that I position can access specific neural networks where 408 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: emotional or traumatic experiences are stored. When the I focuses 409 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: on a brain spot, a visual point linked to an 410 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: internal emotional or somatic activation, the brain naturally begins to 411 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: process and release you know what it's holding there. So, 412 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: in essence, brain spotting taps directly into the sub quarter 413 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 2: called brain, the limbic brain that's responsible for survival emotional memory, 414 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: and then it helps by keeping the client's gaze there 415 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: and holding that tension. Eventually really begins to happen, so 416 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: you see clients shaking or crying or remembering things that 417 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 2: you know they have disengaged with from that memory. It's 418 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: actually very powerful technique, and you can even do it 419 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: on yourself and all honesty. Sometimes when something is bothering 420 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 2: me and it's called self spotting, and I'm having difficulty 421 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: tapping into it fully, I just kind of ground myself 422 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: with a few deep breaths, and then I start to 423 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: think about it and noticed my physiology, and then I 424 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: turned my gaze around to see is it worse when 425 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: I look to my left? Is it worse when I, 426 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: you know, look to my right, and I picked the 427 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: spot that it's bothering me the most, and I just 428 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: sit there with it for a little bit, and then 429 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: obviously that's my trigger spot. I know I already have 430 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: a safe spot that I can go to as well, 431 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: So then I start to vacillate between my trigger spot 432 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: and my safe spot, and after a while, the emotion 433 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: goes down better around it. 434 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: Interesting, I had an experience, well, I witnessed an experience. 435 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: I've talked about this on a different podcast. Listeners may 436 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: have heard this or not, but there was I went 437 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: to a breath work session with a guy called Barney 438 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: who has been on the podcast, and we talked about this, 439 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: and my little guy was with me, and it was 440 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: it was an urge breath or about an hour and 441 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: a half, but the major chunk of it, we were 442 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: doing this sort of controlled hyperventilation, sort of holotropic. 443 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 4: Breeding for quite a while, these big, powerful. 444 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: Breaths, and my son was lying beside me. Now, Oscar 445 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: had he had developed Cushing's disease a number of years 446 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: ago and it was obviously a pretty horrible time for him. 447 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: And ever since Cushing's disease and anytime he talked about. 448 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 4: It, he would become very. 449 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: Emotional around it, which is very understandable because it was 450 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: it was a pretty traumatic time for him. But he 451 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: did this breath work and I don't know, it's maybe 452 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: thirty minutes in there were other people around the room 453 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: crying or making signs, and Oscar said to me afterwards, 454 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: he said he was lying there and he could hear 455 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: this person crying, and he said, what the hell's wrong 456 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: with this person? Why on earth are they crying? And 457 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, he started crying and he 458 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: had no idea why, and he just kept crying. But 459 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: he said he wouldn't didn't feel upset, but he was 460 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: just crying uncontrollably, and it went on for probably five 461 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: minutes and then it was just kind of a little 462 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: bit spaced out by it. And afterwards he said it 463 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: just completely changed, and all of a sudden, now he 464 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: can talk about his cushions disease without. 465 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 4: Any emotion in it. 466 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: Now. 467 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: I have seen other people in those breathwork classes, you know, 468 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: some of them their hands turning to clause when they're 469 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: doing the breath work. They have these big emotional releases. 470 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: There's like and it's it's people who have been through. 471 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 4: Hard or traumatic experiences. 472 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if you've ever experienced anything of that, 473 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: but is there anything that you know from your training 474 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: in the somatic realm that could be explaining what the 475 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: hell is going on? 476 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm actually very familiar with holotropic reading. I believe, 477 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, it was developed by Growth in 478 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: the seventies and it operates on understanding that this very 479 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: much resonates with my type of work, that the psyche 480 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: has an innate drive towards healing and integration, right, and 481 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: all these things that you're observing are fragmented parts of 482 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: our psyche because you have to think about it this way. 483 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: When we go through hardship, a part of kind of 484 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: like imagine, and if your body gets wounded, it can 485 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: get dismembered, like if you're in an accident, you can 486 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 2: lose a limb. Right. When the psyche goes through something traumatic, 487 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: something the equivalent it experience is something that's the equivalent 488 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: of getting dismembered for the body, right, and it turns 489 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: into all these fragmented parts. For example, when you receive 490 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: really bad news, when you're going through a very difficult disease, 491 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: when you lose someone you genuinely love, right, So then 492 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 2: it needs to go back to healing and integration. It 493 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: needs to bring all those fragmented parts to a whole. 494 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: So given the right conditions, for example, heightened breath, supportive environment, 495 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 2: and non judgmental facility, kind of any kind of facilitation, 496 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: you know, it could be a therapist, it could be 497 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: you doing the work. The unconscious can bring forth unresolved emotions, 498 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: memories and inner imagery for processing and release and kind 499 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: of like we talked about earlier, a lot of this 500 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: is stored in the body because imagine I am driving 501 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: and a car hits me. In that moment, the car 502 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: hits me, and I don't get to finish that response 503 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: because I was going to have a response. I was 504 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: going to run away. I was going to get away 505 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: from this, but I was caught in that moment and 506 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: I didn't get to finish that response. Right, So, when 507 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: these releases happen, the body goes back to that initial 508 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: memory and potentially releases that interrupted response that that sometimes 509 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: happens through shaking. Sometimes you see jerking of people's limbs 510 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: or let's say they're holding on to something very tight, 511 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 2: and these are very normal dynamics that you're observing people 512 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 2: that are going through these kinds of healing and releasing 513 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 2: the trauma from their body. 514 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 4: It's very interesting. 515 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: And you know, five or ten years ago, if you 516 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 1: were saying that sort of stuff to me, I would 517 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: have a little part of my brain would be going, 518 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: this is woo woo horseshit right. But having experience, not 519 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: personally because like I've had a pretty easy life without 520 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: any any trauma at all, but having been in numerous 521 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: breathwork sessions where I have seen lots of people who 522 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: have had, you know, traumatic experiences in their past and 523 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: seen and heard reactions during it, but then afterwards them 524 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: talking about it and feeling like there's a weightlifted, Like 525 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: there's just way too much of this going on for 526 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: it to be We. 527 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 4: Worry, and I think we. 528 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: Are starting to really understand some of those processes that 529 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: you talked about, whether it's from AMDR or somatic therapies, 530 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: are the body keeps the score. It really is kind 531 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: of undeniable when you witness it, isn't it. 532 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 2: The whole goal of this you have to keep in 533 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: mind is for us to experience safety again. So whatever physiological, emotional, 534 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 2: psychological cognitive dynamics that's associated or we have come to 535 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: associate with lack of safety we have to let go of. Now, 536 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: this usually happens through rituals. I'm not saying when people 537 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: go through these experiences it's life changing, but I think 538 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: it at least lets you get out whatever it is 539 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 2: that's dominating your psyche in that moment, and then the 540 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 2: psyche is multi layered, so and ways you can go 541 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 2: about that, maybe through changing your life to some extent, 542 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: changing your routines, changing the things you do, the pressures 543 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: you put on yourself. But it's a great. 544 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: Start, and so let's go back and talk about you 545 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: and your journey. So what have been the biggest things 546 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: that have influenced you. 547 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,959 Speaker 4: Both personally and then professionally in terms of influenced why 548 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 4: you do what you do? 549 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: You know what, I think the best way for me 550 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: to answer that is I've always have had a very 551 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 2: restless soul that potentially needed more taming than your average person. 552 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 2: I think I've always had a lot of questions and 553 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 2: a lot of big emotions, and my life has been 554 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: pretty much dedicated to finding those answers for myself. And 555 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: in the midst of all this, I went through something 556 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 2: very traumatic. I went back home to visit my parents 557 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: when I was doing my PhD in psychology, and we 558 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: got into a car accident when they were taking me 559 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 2: to the airport to come back to the States. So 560 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: a drunk driver on the other side of the street 561 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: fell asleep and he was to truck. The truck landed 562 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: on our car. My father passed away at the accident's side, 563 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: and I was injured very badly. I was thrown out 564 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 2: of the car and had severe injuries to my head 565 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 2: and my face, and went through lots of recovery and surgery, 566 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 2: and obviously it was a very traumatic event and it 567 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: impacted my family, my sisters very greatly, my mother, and 568 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 2: you know. As I was trying to make my way 569 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 2: out of this traumatic event, I went to a lot 570 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 2: of different therapists, a lot of different modalities of therapy, 571 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 2: and one thing I started to do was I started 572 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 2: to write about my emotions. It's something I usually do 573 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: when I'm struggling with something. And one of my sisters 574 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 2: at one point read parts of it and said, you 575 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 2: need to turn this into a book because it can 576 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: really help some people. So I took the amalgamation of 577 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: my personal experience, and I connected that with the trauma 578 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 2: I've seen in my patients, the relation on many trauma 579 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: over the past decade, because I think that's one of 580 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 2: the main things I deal with when I do therapy 581 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 2: with clients. And I created a story around a woman 582 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 2: named Charlotte who's going through life thinking she's very successful 583 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 2: and she's living life and not understanding that her past 584 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 2: traumas are dominating her life actually, and then I wrote 585 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 2: the book The Fire That Makes Us regarding Charlotte's story, 586 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 2: and at the end of each chapter, I stop and 587 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 2: I talk about the psychology of that dynamic and talk 588 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: about how to navigate this if we're in it because 589 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: our psychological wounds we can never completely heal from a 590 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 2: very you know, cautious about how phrase that, because sometimes 591 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 2: people feel like if they've gone through something, they can 592 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: just you know, heal from it in a way as 593 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 2: if it has never happened. But that's not the case. 594 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: You're not supposed to come out of it that way. 595 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: Every negative story has also a positive side. You don't 596 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 2: just lose something when you go through something traumatic, you 597 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 2: gain a lot as well. So you don't want to 598 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 2: fully come out of that. You want to bring out 599 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 2: the gold that you have acquired as a result of 600 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 2: going through that. They're your war wounds, right, So I'm 601 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 2: hoping it works as a guideline for people who are 602 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,439 Speaker 2: struggling with something, feel like they're stuck in something, there's 603 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 2: something they can't let go of. And I think that's 604 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,320 Speaker 2: where my life journey has brought me to answer your 605 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 2: question in a very long way. 606 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,320 Speaker 1: Like, sorry to hear about that, sorry to hear about 607 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: the passing of your dad, But. 608 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 4: Was the writing of the book? Was that important for 609 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 4: you to. 610 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: Move on and. 611 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 4: Get on with your life. I'm very careful to say 612 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,959 Speaker 4: to not say to me. Yeah, you know, I. 613 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 2: Think my healing journey had started way before that. I 614 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 2: think I was fully functional by the time I started 615 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: to actually write the book. I had done a lot 616 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 2: of writing prior to that that I think had served 617 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 2: that purpose. But the book actually just got published this September, 618 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,800 Speaker 2: so I literally started writing it about two three years ago. 619 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 2: It wasn't publishing for about a year, so three years ago. 620 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 2: I think it's brought a lot of resolution to what 621 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 2: I went through. So it's kind of when I look 622 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 2: at the final result. It makes me feel like my 623 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 2: pain wasn't interested in vain. It gave birth to something 624 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 2: that can potentially help other people. So in that sense, 625 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 2: I think it has yes. 626 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: And I like that you talked about finding the goal. 627 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned something about that. I mean, the historic philosophers 628 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: talked a lot and this really resonates with me about 629 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: the marks of a chisel and all the hardship that you've. 630 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 4: Been through life. 631 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,919 Speaker 1: These are marks of a chisel, but you should were 632 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: those marks of a chisel with pride, because often people 633 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: just want to forget about it and move on and 634 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: heal and move past it. But there are lessons to 635 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: be learned, and there are things to be gleaned from 636 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: these difficult circumstances, aren't there. 637 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely, if we learn how to approach them, and if 638 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 2: we're not afraid of them, and if we integrate them 639 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 2: into our story, they make us very powerful. 640 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,479 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, So how do you so, particularly given 641 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: that you're working with people with trauma, how do. 642 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 4: You not let that affect you? 643 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: Because there's you know, there's well known phenomenon in psychology 644 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: called transference, where I if you're talking to somebody about 645 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: their problems, particularly traumatic stuff. 646 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 4: It's really hard not to take that on yourself. 647 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: So and that's why I lot of psychologists and psychiatrists 648 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: get burned out. 649 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 3: So how do you deal with that? 650 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 4: How do you navigate that? 651 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 2: When I teach them, when I train interns, they always 652 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 2: ask me this because they get to a point that 653 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 2: it can really impact you. And I always tell them this. 654 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 2: I say, if there comes a time that what you 655 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 2: do doesn't impact you, it means you're not being helpful 656 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: to anyone because you're taking your humanity out of it. 657 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 2: Somebody's pain or somebody's pleasure should impact you, because you're 658 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,399 Speaker 2: a human being. But the way you approach it, if 659 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,800 Speaker 2: you take on their pain as if it's your pain, 660 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,720 Speaker 2: and if you embody that, then you can no longer 661 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 2: help them. But if you see it as a gift 662 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 2: that they are kind of giving you access into the 663 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 2: most personal part of their being, they're inviting you somewhere 664 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 2: that they don't even deem to go themselves, very easily, 665 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 2: it turns into an exploration, an invitation to explore, to hold, 666 00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 2: to provide some light in this darkness that the patient 667 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,919 Speaker 2: themselves can explore. So I think if you know your 668 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 2: own boundaries, that your job is not to solve this 669 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 2: pain or to take it away. Your job is to 670 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:19,320 Speaker 2: expand your client so that the pain is no longer 671 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 2: at them in their entirety, but just a part of 672 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 2: who they are, and now they can hold it better, 673 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: then you can focus on your job. 674 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's really cool. 675 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: I like that because what you often will see is 676 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: that some psychologian and doctors get completely burned out and 677 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: others can become completely desensitized, you know, So I think 678 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: I think your methodology helps to navigate that path and. 679 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 4: Make sure you don't fall either way. 680 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: So what are you What are you excited about in 681 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: the future in terms of psychology and how that can 682 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: help people. 683 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 2: You know, I feel like more and more people are 684 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 2: opening up to actually working on themselves. I'm not saying 685 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 2: psychology is the only tool, but I think if we 686 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 2: focus on expansion, if we focus on otherness, acceptance, coming 687 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 2: to terms with the fact that we live in a world, 688 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 2: that people have different opinions than we do, and there 689 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 2: could be a way that we could live with each 690 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: other in harmony instead of trying to essentially prove that 691 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 2: our world view is the best and we're right and 692 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 2: nobody else is. I think that makes me excited about 693 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,919 Speaker 2: a future where humans can potentially connect with each other 694 00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,959 Speaker 2: versus where we seem to be at the moment, which 695 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 2: is a lot of this kind act. And I think 696 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 2: more and more people are opening up to expanding their 697 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 2: sense of self, whether through any kind of practices, obviously therapy. 698 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 2: I think we all need to do a lot of 699 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 2: work on our nervous systems and the way that they've 700 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 2: been conditioned or reactiveness, and my own personal work, I 701 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 2: am very excited about the course of design Regulate to 702 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: Rise that essentially it's a nervous system reset framework. It's 703 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,720 Speaker 2: an eight module course that uses everything we talked about, 704 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 2: from bilateral stimulation to somatic work to cognitive work to 705 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 2: help you reset your nervous system in very digestive, all 706 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 2: small bites that you can use in your everyday life. 707 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 2: There are many, many, many modalities out there that that 708 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 2: can potentially resonate with different people. So I just want 709 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 2: to encourage everyone to go look for whatever it is 710 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 2: that works for them, because there is something in this 711 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 2: world that works for you. And once you find that 712 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 2: you're no longer the victim, you are exercising your agency 713 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 2: and you're changing your world, and when you change the world, 714 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 2: you'll change everybody else's. 715 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 1: And I think psychology can be and has been, very 716 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: helpful for people, particularly if they've had trauma. But to 717 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,720 Speaker 1: your point, I think you know if you haven't had 718 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: significant issues there. I think the storage used to say 719 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: philosophy is the doctor's office for the mind. 720 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 4: And I find that that particularly philosophy and particularly stoicism, 721 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 4: is very very good at at. 722 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: Helping you navigate the inevitable bumps in the road and 723 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: the odd shit sandwich from the universe. 724 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 4: Right. 725 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: But to your part about your course the nervous system, 726 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean I am seeing more and more that people 727 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: are they have disregulated autonomic nervous systems. We are in 728 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: we have an environment that is just a driver of 729 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: sympathetic activation, and as you rightly said, and as we 730 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: discussed earlier on, that has a massive impact on your psychology, 731 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: but then also influences your sleep, which influences. 732 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 4: Your movement unit. And it's all connected, isn't it. 733 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: Like I hear this idea that psychology is separate to physiology, 734 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: because it's not like this just remains up here and 735 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: the physiology is done there. 736 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,320 Speaker 4: We are these connected beings. 737 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: So tell us where can people find out more both 738 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,760 Speaker 1: about your book, the Fact that makes Us and also 739 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: the course the Nervous System Reset that you are just 740 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: about the finish. 741 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 2: Yes, the course will be launched Dunker Joby, but they 742 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 2: can find all the information on my website at Jalaly 743 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 2: dot com. They are also a podcasts that they can 744 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 2: listen to regarding the book and the fire that makes 745 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 2: us at this point is everywhere. They can order on Amazon, 746 00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 2: Barnes and Nobles or major bookstores. 747 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: And. 748 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 2: I put up a lot of I want to say, 749 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 2: educational clips on YouTube, on Instagram, TikTok on their Aligned Remedy, 750 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 2: which is the name of one of my practices here 751 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 2: in Orange County. They can definitely find the information there 752 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,280 Speaker 2: and hopefully they find it helpful awesome. 753 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,880 Speaker 1: So we will put all of those links into the 754 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 1: show notes so that people can go and access them. 755 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: And I just want to thank you for your time 756 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: and for your for your work and then long may continue. 757 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. It was wonderful being here. 758 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 3: Pleasure