WEBVTT - Murderers and mindhunters: Dr. Ann Burgess Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.280 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today's guests 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.239 had a profound effect on my career as a homicide detective. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.920 She would not know that, but I'm sure there are 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.560 a lot of other homicide detectives worldwide who feel exactly. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:00:59.080 The same way I do. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.800 Her contributions to law enforcement, training and criminal investigations have 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.720 had a broad and lasting impact, not only in her 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:07.920 own country. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.320 But also across the world. 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.440 She played a crucial role in the advancement of criminal 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:17.319 profile techniques, helping law enforcement agencies identify and apprehend suspects 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.760 based on behavioral patterns and psychological theories. We're talking real 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.600 mind Hunter stuff here. What we're talking about is getting 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.280 into the mind of killers, including notorious serial killers, by 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.320 understanding what motivates them, how they think, which allows law 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.280 enforcement officers to track these killers down and, in the 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.920 case of serial killers, save further victims. Today, we're going 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.360 to be talking to someone who I consider an absolute 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.959 legend in law enforcement, and I don't hand out those 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.440 accolades lightly. Her groundbreaking work has seen her portrayed as 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:52.160 a main character and the hugely successful Netflix series mind Hunter. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.200 Our guest today is doctor Anne Burgess, who started her 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.880 career as a psychiatric nurse, obtained her PhD in nursing, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.720 and is a professor. She helped develop the methodology that 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.160 FBI agents used to interview, study, and profile serial killers. 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.840 I'm not kidding when I say it's an absolute privilege 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.639 to be able to sit down and speak with doctor Burgers. 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.640 Would you prefer doctor Burgers or doctor Anne Burgers. What 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:19.480 are you comfortable with? 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.040 Well, whatever you normally do I'm fine with anything. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.000 Well, Hello, Anne, I'm Gary. 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.920 Okay, Hi Gary, delighted to be invaded and happy to 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:29.720 be here. Gary. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.720 Well, I'm going to embarrass you up front. I can't 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.960 say how I'm excited to sit down and speak with you. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:40.280 Having been a homicide detective for over twenty years, I'm 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.000 familiar with your work and what emanated from the FBI, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.040 and I've got to say I'm a big fan because 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.560 the thing that excited me most was trying to get 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.080 into the mind of killers, and you're at the forefront 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.120 of understanding what goes on in that field. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.720 We're trying to that's what we've been doing, and we're 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.880 still trying to get inside the mind see if we 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.040 can learn more about these serial killers. 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.239 Yeah, right from upfront to understand each killer. And we're 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.680 going to delve deeply into what you've learned. But I 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.800 suppose it's a science or it's an area of study 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.079 that the more you learn, the more you realize you 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.799 don't know. Every time you think you've noiled it, I'm 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.720 sure you see something else. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.280 Absolutely, that's the way it is, and that's why we 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.440 just keep going because there are just new avenues to pursue. 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.680 Tell us a little bit for our listeners, tell us 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:36.800 a little bit about your career so they get an 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.400 understanding the work that you've done. And when I say 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.440 your career, we're not talking past tense. I know you've 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.840 just come from lecturing a group of students before you 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.880 sat down here, so you're still very, very active. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:53.160 Yeah. I basically started out my career as a nurse. 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.840 As a psychiatric nurse, you specialize in nursing in various fields, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.320 and so I picked psychiatric nursing and so for many 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.560 years that's what I did. I would do psychotherapy. I 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.360 was a what's called a clinician, but I also was 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.880 an academic, and I've been at Boston College was where 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.680 I first started into some research, and that was on 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:20.080 rape victims. So I really that was because of a 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.960 colleague of mind, Linda Holmstrom, who said that this was 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.200 going to be an important area for women. And this 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.240 is back in the seventies, and that was true, that 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:35.040 the Women's movement actually was the Second Movement was just starting, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.680 and she had been to some of what are called 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.479 consciousness raising groups where women would gather and talk about 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.279 things they had never talked about before. And of course 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.760 much of it had to do with rape, had to 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.159 do with incest, that kind of thing, and so she 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.440 was instrumental in saying we need to do a study. 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.279 And she had tried to find rape victims and was 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.680 having no l up. They're very they hide, they really do, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.919 they don't pronounce themselves. So that she I said, the 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.080 only place I think we can find them is at 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:14.239 a hospital, at an emergency room, and so I started 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:19.320 contacting hospitals and that's where we were able to get 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.400 into Boston City Hospital, which was a very good hospital, 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.880 large urban hospital. It's where police would take rape victims, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.960 and so that's where the study started. And over a 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.480 year we saw one hundred and forty six people between 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.000 the ages of three and seventy three, so we had 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.640 a wide span the majority, of course where you'd expect 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.440 late teens, early twenties, but then we had some that 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.520 were children, and of course some that were elderly. So 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.680 that is what started me not only an academ but 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:58.240 also as a research area. And from there, the FBI 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:03.920 concurrently was being told they had to start screening their 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:08.640 agents in rape investigation, and so they had nobody that 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.600 was had any expertise in it, and why should they 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.640 They were all investigators. So the another nurse who was 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.359 also a detective out in Los Angeles, had been keeping 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.640 up with her nursing skills. She worked at an emergency room, 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:29.279 and she said to Roy Hazelwood, who had said he 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.440 had this new assignment he was going to have to 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.040 teach rape investigation. He didn't know where he'd find anyone 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:39.360 or anything. And she caught him after class and said, 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:42.520 there's a new article out in the American Journal of 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:46.440 Nursing and it's by someone out on the East Coast. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.160 Why don't you contact her? And that's what he did, 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.400 and he invited me to come down to teach their agents, 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:59.839 their special agents about rape victims. So that's how my 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.800 research in the area of victims connected with the FBI, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.720 who were having to train repe investigators. And from there 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:15.040 is where the project on a criminal personality study started 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.440 with Bob Wrestler and John Douglas, and that's how I 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:24.240 got into the profiling. What they needed was somebody that 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.960 knew methodology. They were not trained as science listeners, as researchers, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.880 and so they needed to bring in somebody that could 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.960 set up a research study. So that's very basically how 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.400 I got from point A to point B. 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.559 Well, I'm sure when you started out nursing, you didn't 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.080 in visage that you'd be working for a large majority 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.760 of your career very in depth with the FBI. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:53.239 So I never never, I've got to say. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.440 In prepping for the podcast and understanding your background and 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.440 the type of things that you did, it made me 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.720 reflect on my early times in homicide. I was fortunate 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.920 enough to work with a partner of Paul Bradley as 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.360 a young detective who had spent twenty years as a 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:13.200 psychiatric nurse, and it was interesting just as we're both 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:17.520 setting out as learning the traders detectives. I always had 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.560 fascinating discussions with Paul about what are we dealing with 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.680 here and the type of expertise that he brought into 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:27.160 the field. So yeah, I do understand the benefits of it, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.320 and that shaped me in the way that I was 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.520 looking at crimes, having someone just a bounce some ideas off, 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.520 because I think and you would see it, with all 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.640 the law enforcement offices you dealt with, we have a 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.440 tendency there's some black and white thinking and to think 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.440 a little bit abstract doesn't come naturally to a lot 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:51.600 of police officers. I would suggest, I would agree, whinding 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.200 back on your studies with sexual assault victims rape victims 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.080 that one thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, But 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.560 I think that's when the thinking started to change that 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.400 rape wasn't about the sexual act, it was about the control. 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:03.960 Right. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.000 That was really one of our major papers that rape 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.480 certainly happened in a sexual context, that it had more 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.720 to do with dominance, power and anger. And that was 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.080 one of the articles we wrote and published, and I 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.040 think that really caught on. People began to understand a 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.520 little bit more that it wasn't just a sexual act. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.520 Yeah, and I think opening your mind up to what's 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.880 made evating the crime just with that, I won't say subtle, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.520 because it's a significant shift in thinking, does change the 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.040 way you follow an investigation. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:40.800 Victimology. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.880 That's one thing in homicide that I was fortunate enough 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.520 to work under some very good mentals, and I really 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.079 didn't get the importance initially that they were put in 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.080 on victimology. I'd just like to talk to you about 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.920 victimology because now, having been what I consider an experienced 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:03.120 homicide detective, understand the importance of it. So victimology and 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:08.000 the homicide investigation or yeah, of Cereal rapist, any serious crime. 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.240 What can the victim tell you about the perpetrator of 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:11.679 the crime? 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.360 Well, they tell an awful lot. And that's where I 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.880 think the payoff is because up until that point, everybody 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.040 just thought O rape was the same thing as sex. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.640 And until you listen to what the victim tells you 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:29.559 about what occurs between how they get targeted if you 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.240 will you want to use that word, or how they 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.640 get selected, and then what they do, what they say, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.079 how they behave all of that, they're not going to 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.240 tell you. The offender's not going to tell you. You have 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:42.520 to get it from the victim. And when you talk 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.800 with enough victims, you begin to see the patterns. And 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.200 that's what I think the payoff was is, so we 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:54.280 learned about the offender from the victim, So we try 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.640 to emphasize that, and I think that the profilers done 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.120 at Quantico really caught on to that and they use 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.720 that as the key piece of information to start with. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.520 You know, after they have a victim, why was that 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.520 victim target and why was he or she usually a she? 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:17.520 And what type of person victimized her, so you and 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.520 then where should we look for a possible suspect. And 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.080 they began to see that they could use these patterns 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:29.880 as a way to better classify who they were looking for, 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.839 and I think that's what sharpened their investigative techniques. It's 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:38.440 the victimology, the study of the victim, and that goes 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.400 for any type of crime. It doesn't have to be 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.240 just rape, but certainly was in our situation of because 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.440 nobody had talked about the victim early on, and so 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.400 our Lindham Our work was very very important. And then 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.960 the traumatic aftermath and the fear. I mean it was 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.120 really based on fear. They fear that they were going 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:03.200 to be killed, especially if the stranger not necessarily a 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.680 domestic rate, but certainly a stranger rate. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.240 During the course of my career I got to because 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.000 it was homicide and serial violent crime, and got to 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.120 work on quite a few serial rapists and the way 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:23.040 that they target their victims. And quite often it was 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.800 the type of victim that alludes to the fact that 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.240 we had a serial rapist, whether the female that was 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.400 in the ones that I investigated, they are always female victims, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.520 but they were when I say vulnerable. They were exposed 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.640 in that they were walking home late at night, that 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:46.040 type of stranger sexual assault. So they get that thinking 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.520 about why they targeting victims. Do you think it also 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.960 links the crimes together too, because I know in my 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.319 early days in policing, and I spent over the thirty 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.080 years in policing, we sort of operated in silos. We 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.120 didn't link a fan is to give us say, quite 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.640 often they'd be a ripe reported in this area, and 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.920 then they'd be a ripe report in another era, and 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.880 they'd be two groups of groups of detectives working in 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.000 isolation and not really comparing notes right right. 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.440 And actually what has even helped advance the science even more, 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.440 of course is DNA that they're finding that they always 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.120 they can change their MOO. That was confusing. I know 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.600 that Douglas put that a lot of emphasis on that 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.120 the signature, what was the signature of the offender that 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.640 he had that was psychologically based, But he could change 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.520 the m O. But he couldn't change the signature because 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.520 it was it was part of him. So those were 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.040 some of the things that we learned in the It 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.200 had to be a serial type offense. 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.120 Could you give us an example of the type of 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:51.719 thing break that down. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:57.240 Well, there would be I'm thinking of John Simonis. He 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.600 was one of the big ones cases that we had. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.280 They took years for them to find him and his 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.079 m all would he put as much effort into his 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.720 message of gaining access to a victim, and so that 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:17.120 could change, but he always would have them. He had 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.600 to immobilize them. He had to have people aware of 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.000 what he was doing. He was an exhibitionist. He wanted 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:29.880 the husband or the children to witness the rape. I 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.920 mean it was really so psychological if you you know, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.040 that's where one of the things is. They wanted to know, well, 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:37.760 what did I think of that? And I said, I 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.360 bet you go back in his childhood and find out 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:44.760 that he had witnessed something in the family. And sure enough, 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.600 there had been some whether it was ever confirmed, but 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.960 something between the father and the sister, and he had 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.240 witnessed that, and so he carried that out in his 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.240 own rapes. So there's a one where he didn't change 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:05.720 his Uh, he didn't change his signature, but he might 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.800 change you know, where he found a victim. He might 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.040 have found her inside a house, or he could find 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.080 him on the street. That that kind of thing. 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.360 Okay, and that that helps you link the crime, understand 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.240 the type of person you're looking for and what maivates 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:21.680 a person. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.840 Yeah, but I will say they used their good detective work. 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.480 You probably would appreciate that the profilers all were interested 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.040 in the car, the type of car that the and 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.920 of course the car was very important in detective work 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.760 in those days. And sure enough they had pinpointed the 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.440 type of car be very flashy, it'd be like a 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.880 sports car because that seemed to match the personality that 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.440 of the type of person that they were looking for. 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.120 And sure enough it was a red trans am that 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.280 caught their attention at two separate places. And so that's 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.600 how they they So even though we have. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:04.600 Look, I love the good detective stories and again it 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.600 makes me reflect on reflect on my career. The things 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.600 that you learn I couldn't understand with these experienced detectives 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.440 that I was working with initially, are just so focused 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.760 on the car, and I'd be thinking, all right, we've 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.520 gone over the car, and they'd be fixated with there 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.600 was a red car or whatever, and they'd be fixated 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.720 on it. But quite often that it leads to leads 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:30.040 to a successful result. And when you do unravel a 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.600 serial offender, little things that come to mind that you 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.200 look back at it with hindsight and if you had 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.400 better better thought process and the type of work that 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.000 you guys have been doing over there. One serial rapists 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.800 who were working on the victims were always attacked on 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.200 the Tuesday and Thursday night. And then when we finally 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:55.720 caught the offender, he was married, had kids, normal home life, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.440 but he was supposed to be going to evening college 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.880 during the Tuesday and days and that's when he's struck. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.520 So you see patterns like that. And I remember when 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.240 we had him targeted as a possible suspect and then 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:13.000 we realized that he's got a or not an alibi, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:14.760 but an excuse to be out of his home on 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.440 those two nights. That sort of firmed it up as 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.000 we're heading in the right direction. I also, and you 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.600 mentioned DNA, and I probably want to talk about that 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.679 later a little bit more detail, but I was listening 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.240 to one of the many interviews that you've done and 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.480 you said the benefit of DNA is not only yeah, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.760 it's advanced criminal investigation in huge ways, but it also 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.200 helps eliminate suspects, and I thought, that's someone that understands 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.320 that world because the DNA, it's so helpful because you 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.480 can spend so much time focusing on one person and 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.160 if you can compare it to the DNA, makes a difference, 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:52.600 doesn't it. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.160 I think it makes huge difference. And I think that's 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.919 really one of the best benefits of DNA is to 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.680 exclude people a course is very helpful for them. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.800 Yeah, too well to be excluded. 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.919 I learned or it shaped my career early in homicide. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.080 We were targeting the person you ticked the boxes of. 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.600 This is a good suspect that it was a sexual 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.919 assault and murder of an elderly lady. It was a 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.520 horrendous crime. Someone had broken into his house. We got 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:27.520 a suspect that ingratiated himself into the crime in that 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.760 he was a witness and said he was walking his 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.439 dog and his dog got off the lead and he 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.880 ran past the place, which gets us suspicious. He gave 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:38.720 a detailed description of someone he saw coming out of 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.879 the place, which he just couldn't He was describing the 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.359 earring this bloke had on from across the road. Details 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.760 like that the victim was a member of a church group. 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.879 He went to the same church. He also also knocked 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.520 on a door of another elderly lady a couple of 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.000 weeks after the murder and asked for a cup of 0:18:57.560 --> 0:18:59.840 a glass of water because he was hot. We couldn't 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.359 work get how this person got access into the place. 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.919 We look at his criminal history and he's got past 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:10.720 offenses in another state for sexually assaulting a elderly lady. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.080 You can understand. To take this point of view, We've 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.120 got this bloke, had him under surveillance, picked him up, 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.320 got his DNA. First DNA case I worked on. First 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.280 time we used DNA and the laboratory comes back because 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.960 seaman was left at the scene. No, that's not your man, 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.399 and we were gobsmacked. We demanded the game go down 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.240 to the laboratory to have it. Can you explain this 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:39.480 DNA stuff to us? And we're staring at this screen 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.440 not fully understanding it. But it taught me a lot 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.080 that you can be headed off in the wrong direction 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.359 on investigations because because of the circumstances. 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:50.120 Would you agree with. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.320 That, I absolutely would agree with that, And I can 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.800 think of many times when they are looking for a 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.399 suspect and exactly as you say, and they get the 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.000 DNA back and it excludes the person. So but it's 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.159 helpful if you can get the DNA early enough so 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.439 that you don't get so invested in the case because 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.639 you are left of how can this be? It must 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:10.280 be this guy. 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.280 Well, it taught me a lesson from you know, you've 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:15.520 got to keep an open mind. 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:21.640 Yeah. Absolutely, criminal profiling. 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.199 There's a lot of everyone's got a view on what 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.880 criminal profiling is. And you see some shows, fictional shows 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.840 or whatever, and it's almost like you can describe the 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.480 person to the tea and you virtually everything other than 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.439 the name you provide. Can you explain to all of 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.840 us what criminal profiling is all about. When someone says, 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.520 I'm a criminal profiler, or have you got a criminal profile? 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.200 Could you explain what it actually is? Because I think 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.680 you're one person that's earned the right to explain what 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:52.080 it is. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.720 And I think it depends on what one's background is, 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.320 because we work. When I talk about criminal profiling, and 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.040 we're talking about out what has done through investigators, not 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.840 through psychologists. And I think psychologists who like to be 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.320 they are going to profile through their understanding of personality 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.320 and psychiatric lingo and things like that. So I see 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.680 that as very different than the investigators whose work is 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.639 finding suspects, and I think that gives them a heads 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.640 up to be able to understand that you're looking for 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:32.120 someone that has committed you're looking for suspect that has 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.480 committed an ex crime, rape or a murder or something, 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.119 and you have to bring all of the skills. You 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:44.080 have special skills. Investigators have special skills that other disciplines 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:48.360 do not have, and vice versa. So I may try 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.560 to make it very clear that we're talking about behavior. 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:57.439 It started out with In fact, even the FBI Academy 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:02.040 called their department the Behavioral Science Department unit. They later 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.040 have changed it to call it now it's more criminal 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:09.440 investigative or support services or things. So over time they 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:13.480 have changed and advanced. I would like to say that 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.600 they had advanced using the work that they had learned from. 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:23.920 So what our work was in profiling was to get 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.800 a large amount of data that could be analyzed to 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:34.440 either support or not support what we had been learning. 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.080 And we learned some things that weren't right, you know, 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:41.199 we weren't doing it right, that the patterns were different, 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.439 and so that's where research comes into it and the 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:48.080 methodology that we use. That's what they needed me for 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:52.960 was the methodology. And because they were researchers, you know, 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:55.480 they didn't have any courses in that, so that I 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.720 think with what made a big difference in their type 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.280 of fling. So answer your question, you need to know 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:07.520 what type of profiling the person does and that's going 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.680 to match to his back or her background. Well, but 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.040 that's why I think you have so many different definitions 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:13.720