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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today's guests

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Speaker 1: had a profound effect on my career as a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: She would not know that, but I'm sure there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of other homicide detectives worldwide who feel exactly.

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Speaker 2: The same way I do.

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Speaker 1: Her contributions to law enforcement, training and criminal investigations have

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Speaker 1: had a broad and lasting impact, not only in her

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Speaker 1: own country.

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Speaker 2: But also across the world.

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Speaker 1: She played a crucial role in the advancement of criminal

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Speaker 1: profile techniques, helping law enforcement agencies identify and apprehend suspects

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Speaker 1: based on behavioral patterns and psychological theories. We're talking real

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Speaker 1: mind Hunter stuff here. What we're talking about is getting

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Speaker 1: into the mind of killers, including notorious serial killers, by

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Speaker 1: understanding what motivates them, how they think, which allows law

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Speaker 1: enforcement officers to track these killers down and, in the

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Speaker 1: case of serial killers, save further victims. Today, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking to someone who I consider an absolute

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Speaker 1: legend in law enforcement, and I don't hand out those

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Speaker 1: accolades lightly. Her groundbreaking work has seen her portrayed as

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Speaker 1: a main character and the hugely successful Netflix series mind Hunter.

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Speaker 1: Our guest today is doctor Anne Burgess, who started her

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Speaker 1: career as a psychiatric nurse, obtained her PhD in nursing,

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Speaker 1: and is a professor. She helped develop the methodology that

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Speaker 1: FBI agents used to interview, study, and profile serial killers.

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Speaker 1: I'm not kidding when I say it's an absolute privilege

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Speaker 1: to be able to sit down and speak with doctor Burgers.

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Speaker 1: Would you prefer doctor Burgers or doctor Anne Burgers. What

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Speaker 1: are you comfortable with?

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Speaker 3: Well, whatever you normally do I'm fine with anything.

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Speaker 2: Well, Hello, Anne, I'm Gary.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Hi Gary, delighted to be invaded and happy to

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Speaker 3: be here. Gary.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to embarrass you up front. I can't

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Speaker 1: say how I'm excited to sit down and speak with you.

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Speaker 1: Having been a homicide detective for over twenty years, I'm

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Speaker 1: familiar with your work and what emanated from the FBI,

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Speaker 1: and I've got to say I'm a big fan because

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Speaker 1: the thing that excited me most was trying to get

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Speaker 1: into the mind of killers, and you're at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of understanding what goes on in that field.

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Speaker 3: We're trying to that's what we've been doing, and we're

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Speaker 3: still trying to get inside the mind see if we

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Speaker 3: can learn more about these serial killers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right from upfront to understand each killer. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to delve deeply into what you've learned. But I

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Speaker 1: suppose it's a science or it's an area of study

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Speaker 1: that the more you learn, the more you realize you

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Speaker 1: don't know. Every time you think you've noiled it, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you see something else.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's the way it is, and that's why we

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Speaker 3: just keep going because there are just new avenues to pursue.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit for our listeners, tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your career so they get an

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Speaker 1: understanding the work that you've done. And when I say

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Speaker 1: your career, we're not talking past tense. I know you've

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Speaker 1: just come from lecturing a group of students before you

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Speaker 1: sat down here, so you're still very, very active.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I basically started out my career as a nurse.

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Speaker 3: As a psychiatric nurse, you specialize in nursing in various fields,

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Speaker 3: and so I picked psychiatric nursing and so for many

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Speaker 3: years that's what I did. I would do psychotherapy. I

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Speaker 3: was a what's called a clinician, but I also was

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Speaker 3: an academic, and I've been at Boston College was where

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Speaker 3: I first started into some research, and that was on

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Speaker 3: rape victims. So I really that was because of a

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Speaker 3: colleague of mind, Linda Holmstrom, who said that this was

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Speaker 3: going to be an important area for women. And this

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Speaker 3: is back in the seventies, and that was true, that

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Speaker 3: the Women's movement actually was the Second Movement was just starting,

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Speaker 3: and she had been to some of what are called

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Speaker 3: consciousness raising groups where women would gather and talk about

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Speaker 3: things they had never talked about before. And of course

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Speaker 3: much of it had to do with rape, had to

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Speaker 3: do with incest, that kind of thing, and so she

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Speaker 3: was instrumental in saying we need to do a study.

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Speaker 3: And she had tried to find rape victims and was

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Speaker 3: having no l up. They're very they hide, they really do,

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Speaker 3: they don't pronounce themselves. So that she I said, the

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Speaker 3: only place I think we can find them is at

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Speaker 3: a hospital, at an emergency room, and so I started

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Speaker 3: contacting hospitals and that's where we were able to get

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Speaker 3: into Boston City Hospital, which was a very good hospital,

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Speaker 3: large urban hospital. It's where police would take rape victims,

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Speaker 3: and so that's where the study started. And over a

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Speaker 3: year we saw one hundred and forty six people between

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Speaker 3: the ages of three and seventy three, so we had

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Speaker 3: a wide span the majority, of course where you'd expect

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Speaker 3: late teens, early twenties, but then we had some that

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Speaker 3: were children, and of course some that were elderly. So

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Speaker 3: that is what started me not only an academ but

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Speaker 3: also as a research area. And from there, the FBI

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Speaker 3: concurrently was being told they had to start screening their

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Speaker 3: agents in rape investigation, and so they had nobody that

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Speaker 3: was had any expertise in it, and why should they

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Speaker 3: They were all investigators. So the another nurse who was

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Speaker 3: also a detective out in Los Angeles, had been keeping

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Speaker 3: up with her nursing skills. She worked at an emergency room,

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Speaker 3: and she said to Roy Hazelwood, who had said he

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Speaker 3: had this new assignment he was going to have to

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Speaker 3: teach rape investigation. He didn't know where he'd find anyone

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Speaker 3: or anything. And she caught him after class and said,

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Speaker 3: there's a new article out in the American Journal of

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Speaker 3: Nursing and it's by someone out on the East Coast.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you contact her? And that's what he did,

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Speaker 3: and he invited me to come down to teach their agents,

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Speaker 3: their special agents about rape victims. So that's how my

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Speaker 3: research in the area of victims connected with the FBI,

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Speaker 3: who were having to train repe investigators. And from there

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Speaker 3: is where the project on a criminal personality study started

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Speaker 3: with Bob Wrestler and John Douglas, and that's how I

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Speaker 3: got into the profiling. What they needed was somebody that

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Speaker 3: knew methodology. They were not trained as science listeners, as researchers,

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Speaker 3: and so they needed to bring in somebody that could

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Speaker 3: set up a research study. So that's very basically how

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Speaker 3: I got from point A to point B.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure when you started out nursing, you didn't

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Speaker 1: in visage that you'd be working for a large majority

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Speaker 1: of your career very in depth with the FBI.

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Speaker 2: So I never never, I've got to say.

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Speaker 1: In prepping for the podcast and understanding your background and

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Speaker 1: the type of things that you did, it made me

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Speaker 1: reflect on my early times in homicide. I was fortunate

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Speaker 1: enough to work with a partner of Paul Bradley as

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Speaker 1: a young detective who had spent twenty years as a

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Speaker 1: psychiatric nurse, and it was interesting just as we're both

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Speaker 1: setting out as learning the traders detectives. I always had

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Speaker 1: fascinating discussions with Paul about what are we dealing with

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Speaker 1: here and the type of expertise that he brought into

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Speaker 1: the field. So yeah, I do understand the benefits of it,

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Speaker 1: and that shaped me in the way that I was

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Speaker 1: looking at crimes, having someone just a bounce some ideas off,

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Speaker 1: because I think and you would see it, with all

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Speaker 1: the law enforcement offices you dealt with, we have a

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Speaker 1: tendency there's some black and white thinking and to think

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Speaker 1: a little bit abstract doesn't come naturally to a lot

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Speaker 1: of police officers. I would suggest, I would agree, whinding

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Speaker 1: back on your studies with sexual assault victims rape victims

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Speaker 1: that one thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, But

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Speaker 1: I think that's when the thinking started to change that

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Speaker 1: rape wasn't about the sexual act, it was about the control.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: That was really one of our major papers that rape

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Speaker 3: certainly happened in a sexual context, that it had more

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Speaker 3: to do with dominance, power and anger. And that was

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Speaker 3: one of the articles we wrote and published, and I

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Speaker 3: think that really caught on. People began to understand a

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Speaker 3: little bit more that it wasn't just a sexual act.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think opening your mind up to what's

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Speaker 1: made evating the crime just with that, I won't say subtle,

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Speaker 1: because it's a significant shift in thinking, does change the

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Speaker 1: way you follow an investigation.

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Speaker 2: Victimology.

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Speaker 1: That's one thing in homicide that I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: to work under some very good mentals, and I really

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Speaker 1: didn't get the importance initially that they were put in

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Speaker 1: on victimology. I'd just like to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: victimology because now, having been what I consider an experienced

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, understand the importance of it. So victimology and

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Speaker 1: the homicide investigation or yeah, of Cereal rapist, any serious crime.

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Speaker 1: What can the victim tell you about the perpetrator of

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Speaker 1: the crime?

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Speaker 3: Well, they tell an awful lot. And that's where I

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Speaker 3: think the payoff is because up until that point, everybody

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Speaker 3: just thought O rape was the same thing as sex.

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Speaker 3: And until you listen to what the victim tells you

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Speaker 3: about what occurs between how they get targeted if you

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Speaker 3: will you want to use that word, or how they

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Speaker 3: get selected, and then what they do, what they say,

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Speaker 3: how they behave all of that, they're not going to

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Speaker 3: tell you. The offender's not going to tell you. You have

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Speaker 3: to get it from the victim. And when you talk

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Speaker 3: with enough victims, you begin to see the patterns. And

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Speaker 3: that's what I think the payoff was is, so we

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Speaker 3: learned about the offender from the victim, So we try

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Speaker 3: to emphasize that, and I think that the profilers done

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Speaker 3: at Quantico really caught on to that and they use

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Speaker 3: that as the key piece of information to start with.

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Speaker 3: You know, after they have a victim, why was that

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Speaker 3: victim target and why was he or she usually a she?

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Speaker 3: And what type of person victimized her, so you and

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Speaker 3: then where should we look for a possible suspect. And

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Speaker 3: they began to see that they could use these patterns

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Speaker 3: as a way to better classify who they were looking for,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's what sharpened their investigative techniques. It's

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Speaker 3: the victimology, the study of the victim, and that goes

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Speaker 3: for any type of crime. It doesn't have to be

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Speaker 3: just rape, but certainly was in our situation of because

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Speaker 3: nobody had talked about the victim early on, and so

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Speaker 3: our Lindham Our work was very very important. And then

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Speaker 3: the traumatic aftermath and the fear. I mean it was

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Speaker 3: really based on fear. They fear that they were going

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Speaker 3: to be killed, especially if the stranger not necessarily a

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Speaker 3: domestic rate, but certainly a stranger rate.

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Speaker 1: During the course of my career I got to because

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Speaker 1: it was homicide and serial violent crime, and got to

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Speaker 1: work on quite a few serial rapists and the way

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Speaker 1: that they target their victims. And quite often it was

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Speaker 1: the type of victim that alludes to the fact that

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Speaker 1: we had a serial rapist, whether the female that was

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Speaker 1: in the ones that I investigated, they are always female victims,

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Speaker 1: but they were when I say vulnerable. They were exposed

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Speaker 1: in that they were walking home late at night, that

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Speaker 1: type of stranger sexual assault. So they get that thinking

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Speaker 1: about why they targeting victims. Do you think it also

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Speaker 1: links the crimes together too, because I know in my

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Speaker 1: early days in policing, and I spent over the thirty

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Speaker 1: years in policing, we sort of operated in silos. We

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Speaker 1: didn't link a fan is to give us say, quite

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Speaker 1: often they'd be a ripe reported in this area, and

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Speaker 1: then they'd be a ripe report in another era, and

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Speaker 1: they'd be two groups of groups of detectives working in

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Speaker 1: isolation and not really comparing notes right right.

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Speaker 3: And actually what has even helped advance the science even more,

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Speaker 3: of course is DNA that they're finding that they always

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Speaker 3: they can change their MOO. That was confusing. I know

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Speaker 3: that Douglas put that a lot of emphasis on that

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Speaker 3: the signature, what was the signature of the offender that

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Speaker 3: he had that was psychologically based, But he could change

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Speaker 3: the m O. But he couldn't change the signature because

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Speaker 3: it was it was part of him. So those were

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Speaker 3: some of the things that we learned in the It

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Speaker 3: had to be a serial type offense.

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Speaker 2: Could you give us an example of the type of

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Speaker 2: thing break that down.

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Speaker 3: Well, there would be I'm thinking of John Simonis. He

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Speaker 3: was one of the big ones cases that we had.

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Speaker 3: They took years for them to find him and his

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Speaker 3: m all would he put as much effort into his

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Speaker 3: message of gaining access to a victim, and so that

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Speaker 3: could change, but he always would have them. He had

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Speaker 3: to immobilize them. He had to have people aware of

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Speaker 3: what he was doing. He was an exhibitionist. He wanted

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Speaker 3: the husband or the children to witness the rape. I

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Speaker 3: mean it was really so psychological if you you know,

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Speaker 3: that's where one of the things is. They wanted to know, well,

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Speaker 3: what did I think of that? And I said, I

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Speaker 3: bet you go back in his childhood and find out

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Speaker 3: that he had witnessed something in the family. And sure enough,

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Speaker 3: there had been some whether it was ever confirmed, but

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Speaker 3: something between the father and the sister, and he had

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Speaker 3: witnessed that, and so he carried that out in his

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Speaker 3: own rapes. So there's a one where he didn't change

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Speaker 3: his Uh, he didn't change his signature, but he might

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Speaker 3: change you know, where he found a victim. He might

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Speaker 3: have found her inside a house, or he could find

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Speaker 3: him on the street. That that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and that that helps you link the crime, understand

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Speaker 1: the type of person you're looking for and what maivates

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Speaker 1: a person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I will say they used their good detective work.

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Speaker 3: You probably would appreciate that the profilers all were interested

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Speaker 3: in the car, the type of car that the and

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Speaker 3: of course the car was very important in detective work

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Speaker 3: in those days. And sure enough they had pinpointed the

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Speaker 3: type of car be very flashy, it'd be like a

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Speaker 3: sports car because that seemed to match the personality that

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Speaker 3: of the type of person that they were looking for.

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Speaker 3: And sure enough it was a red trans am that

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Speaker 3: caught their attention at two separate places. And so that's

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Speaker 3: how they they So even though we have.

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Speaker 1: Look, I love the good detective stories and again it

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Speaker 1: makes me reflect on reflect on my career. The things

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Speaker 1: that you learn I couldn't understand with these experienced detectives

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Speaker 1: that I was working with initially, are just so focused

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Speaker 1: on the car, and I'd be thinking, all right, we've

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Speaker 1: gone over the car, and they'd be fixated with there

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Speaker 1: was a red car or whatever, and they'd be fixated

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Speaker 1: on it. But quite often that it leads to leads

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Speaker 1: to a successful result. And when you do unravel a

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Speaker 1: serial offender, little things that come to mind that you

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Speaker 1: look back at it with hindsight and if you had

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Speaker 1: better better thought process and the type of work that

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Speaker 1: you guys have been doing over there. One serial rapists

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Speaker 1: who were working on the victims were always attacked on

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Speaker 1: the Tuesday and Thursday night. And then when we finally

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Speaker 1: caught the offender, he was married, had kids, normal home life,

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Speaker 1: but he was supposed to be going to evening college

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Speaker 1: during the Tuesday and days and that's when he's struck.

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Speaker 1: So you see patterns like that. And I remember when

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Speaker 1: we had him targeted as a possible suspect and then

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Speaker 1: we realized that he's got a or not an alibi,

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Speaker 1: but an excuse to be out of his home on

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Speaker 1: those two nights. That sort of firmed it up as

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Speaker 1: we're heading in the right direction. I also, and you

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Speaker 1: mentioned DNA, and I probably want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: later a little bit more detail, but I was listening

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Speaker 1: to one of the many interviews that you've done and

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Speaker 1: you said the benefit of DNA is not only yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's advanced criminal investigation in huge ways, but it also

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Speaker 1: helps eliminate suspects, and I thought, that's someone that understands

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Speaker 1: that world because the DNA, it's so helpful because you

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Speaker 1: can spend so much time focusing on one person and

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Speaker 1: if you can compare it to the DNA, makes a difference,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: I think it makes huge difference. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: really one of the best benefits of DNA is to

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Speaker 3: exclude people a course is very helpful for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, too well to be excluded.

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Speaker 1: I learned or it shaped my career early in homicide.

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Speaker 1: We were targeting the person you ticked the boxes of.

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Speaker 1: This is a good suspect that it was a sexual

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Speaker 1: assault and murder of an elderly lady. It was a

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Speaker 1: horrendous crime. Someone had broken into his house. We got

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Speaker 1: a suspect that ingratiated himself into the crime in that

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Speaker 1: he was a witness and said he was walking his

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Speaker 1: dog and his dog got off the lead and he

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Speaker 1: ran past the place, which gets us suspicious. He gave

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Speaker 1: a detailed description of someone he saw coming out of

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Speaker 1: the place, which he just couldn't He was describing the

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Speaker 1: earring this bloke had on from across the road. Details

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Speaker 1: like that the victim was a member of a church group.

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Speaker 1: He went to the same church. He also also knocked

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Speaker 1: on a door of another elderly lady a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks after the murder and asked for a cup of

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Speaker 1: a glass of water because he was hot. We couldn't

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Speaker 1: work get how this person got access into the place.

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Speaker 1: We look at his criminal history and he's got past

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Speaker 1: offenses in another state for sexually assaulting a elderly lady.

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Speaker 1: You can understand. To take this point of view, We've

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Speaker 1: got this bloke, had him under surveillance, picked him up,

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Speaker 1: got his DNA. First DNA case I worked on. First

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Speaker 1: time we used DNA and the laboratory comes back because

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Speaker 1: seaman was left at the scene. No, that's not your man,

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Speaker 1: and we were gobsmacked. We demanded the game go down

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Speaker 1: to the laboratory to have it. Can you explain this

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Speaker 1: DNA stuff to us? And we're staring at this screen

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Speaker 1: not fully understanding it. But it taught me a lot

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Speaker 1: that you can be headed off in the wrong direction

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Speaker 1: on investigations because because of the circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Would you agree with.

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Speaker 3: That, I absolutely would agree with that, And I can

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Speaker 3: think of many times when they are looking for a

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Speaker 3: suspect and exactly as you say, and they get the

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Speaker 3: DNA back and it excludes the person. So but it's

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Speaker 3: helpful if you can get the DNA early enough so

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Speaker 3: that you don't get so invested in the case because

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Speaker 3: you are left of how can this be? It must

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Speaker 3: be this guy.

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Speaker 1: Well, it taught me a lesson from you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got to keep an open mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, criminal profiling.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of everyone's got a view on what

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Speaker 1: criminal profiling is. And you see some shows, fictional shows

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Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's almost like you can describe the

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Speaker 1: person to the tea and you virtually everything other than

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Speaker 1: the name you provide. Can you explain to all of

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Speaker 1: us what criminal profiling is all about. When someone says,

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Speaker 1: I'm a criminal profiler, or have you got a criminal profile?

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Speaker 1: Could you explain what it actually is? Because I think

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Speaker 1: you're one person that's earned the right to explain what

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 3: And I think it depends on what one's background is,

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Speaker 3: because we work. When I talk about criminal profiling, and

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Speaker 3: we're talking about out what has done through investigators, not

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Speaker 3: through psychologists. And I think psychologists who like to be

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Speaker 3: they are going to profile through their understanding of personality

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Speaker 3: and psychiatric lingo and things like that. So I see

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Speaker 3: that as very different than the investigators whose work is

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Speaker 3: finding suspects, and I think that gives them a heads

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Speaker 3: up to be able to understand that you're looking for

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Speaker 3: someone that has committed you're looking for suspect that has

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Speaker 3: committed an ex crime, rape or a murder or something,

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Speaker 3: and you have to bring all of the skills. You

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Speaker 3: have special skills. Investigators have special skills that other disciplines

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Speaker 3: do not have, and vice versa. So I may try

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Speaker 3: to make it very clear that we're talking about behavior.

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Speaker 3: It started out with In fact, even the FBI Academy

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Speaker 3: called their department the Behavioral Science Department unit. They later

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Speaker 3: have changed it to call it now it's more criminal

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Speaker 3: investigative or support services or things. So over time they

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Speaker 3: have changed and advanced. I would like to say that

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Speaker 3: they had advanced using the work that they had learned from.

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Speaker 3: So what our work was in profiling was to get

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Speaker 3: a large amount of data that could be analyzed to

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Speaker 3: either support or not support what we had been learning.

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Speaker 3: And we learned some things that weren't right, you know,

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Speaker 3: we weren't doing it right, that the patterns were different,

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Speaker 3: and so that's where research comes into it and the

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Speaker 3: methodology that we use. That's what they needed me for

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Speaker 3: was the methodology. And because they were researchers, you know,

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Speaker 3: they didn't have any courses in that, so that I

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Speaker 3: think with what made a big difference in their type

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Speaker 3: of fling. So answer your question, you need to know

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Speaker 3: what type of profiling the person does and that's going

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Speaker 3: to match to his back or her background. Well, but

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Speaker 3: that's why I think you have so many different definitions

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Speaker 3: of profiling.

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Speaker 1: I work very closely with a criminal psychologist, doctor Sarah Yule,

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Speaker 1: throughout my police career, especially in homicide. She's a good

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Speaker 1: friend of mine, and I don't think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the police fully understood how you could use someone like

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Speaker 1: Sarah's skills, and she was the first one that was

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Speaker 1: attached to a law enforcement agency specifically to help with investigations.

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Speaker 1: I like Sarah's input because she would think outside the

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Speaker 1: square from what we do as police. Where I used

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Speaker 1: her to the best benefit I thought was preparing for interviews,

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Speaker 1: talking about and not so the saying you tell me

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Speaker 1: what question to ask this person. I'm a detective. I

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Speaker 1: know what questions I want to ask, But how I

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Speaker 1: might that person, whether that person would relate more to

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Speaker 1: a female officer, whether that person might relate to a

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Speaker 1: person in authority, that type of thing. Is that a

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Speaker 1: tool that you think is worthwhile using in criminal investigation?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? I think that more cases are sabotaged. Whatever words

419
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Speaker 3: you want from an interview, I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 3: cases just go down the drain because investigators are not

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Speaker 3: really trained in that. I think they need training in that.

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Speaker 3: And I've talked with I've seen cases where because I

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Speaker 3: just think back to what you learned. Did you really

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Speaker 3: ever learn to interview a victim when you're early on

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Speaker 3: in your career or did you kind of learn it

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Speaker 3: as you went along? See, I think who would be

427
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Speaker 3: the person you bring in is very helpful to be

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Speaker 3: able in that particular area of how to get the

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Speaker 3: most information. One of the big problems in criminals is

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Speaker 3: they will lie and you have to think through is

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Speaker 3: he telling me the truth or is he not? So

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Speaker 3: that's why we want to get into their thoughts. Thoughts

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Speaker 3: drive behavior, right, that's a basic premise of that's how

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Speaker 3: we all work. And so how do you get to

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Speaker 3: those thoughts? And that's where we put so much we

436
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 3: tried it through behavior. We're doing something different. Now we're

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Speaker 3: trying to get them before they act in any kind

438
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: of social media posts written things they've done, and we're

439
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: using AI to give us new information. And it's amazing

440
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 3: how we miss things when we just do an interview

441
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: after you put it through AI for example, you know. Yeah,

442
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 3: And that's trying to see this is before they have

443
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 3: it's when they're personally putting down information. We looked at

444
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: twenty three called manifestos. These were all written before they

445
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: were incarcerated of the murderers, and then see how they

446
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 3: pat what their patterns are. I mean, it's a fast way,

447
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: if you will, of trying to get inside their thinking,

448
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 3: because it's their thinking that gets them off base, right,

449
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 3: it's their thinking. Yeah, so how and so we have

450
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: what we call a step way to murder and there

451
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 3: are about six steps that they go through, so that

452
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 3: if we can get early on, we might be able

453
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: to prevent. Everything is in the service of prevention. Can

454
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 3: you get them when they just have a grudge, you know,

455
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: or do you have and maybe they're still doing their

456
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 3: research and they go through these rather predictable.

457
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: Stages in regards to six steps to murder.

458
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: Can you break that damn for us?

459
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: Yes, it starts, it always starts with a grudge there

460
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: it's something that bothers the person that they are very

461
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 3: upset and angry about. And then that can develop into

462
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: what we call an ideology where they align themselves with

463
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: a group that may or may not happen. And then

464
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 3: they do research and that's where in the research they

465
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: look around they find out other people are feeling that,

466
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: and we break it down into which called in cells.

467
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with in cells nationalists or extremists? I

468
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: think there are three. And then they begin to plan.

469
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: This is when they now have enough information and they

470
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: plan a killing. So that's the I think that's a

471
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 3: third of the fourth. Uh, they might they get a

472
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: date and all these manifestos they said it's going to

473
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 3: be whatever the data is. Now that can change and

474
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: it can change for various reasons. But they will then

475
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 3: go on and in all of the cases, of course,

476
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: they did kill and that would be the last step

477
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: where they do it. And we use the the Elliott

478
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 3: Elliott case out of where he videotapes himself in the

479
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: car and it's just after he has killed his three

480
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: roommates and he's now going to go he's a misogynist

481
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 3: and he's going to go to a sorority house and

482
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 3: he goes, he can't they won't let him into the

483
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: sorority house. Luckily, well, he kills three women outside. That's

484
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: Elliott Rogers. I don't know if it's he would be

485
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: what's called also an inceel, and he's one of the

486
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 3: We kind of use him as the example of the

487
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 3: steps to violence or the steps to murder, and pretty

488
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: much we were that's our research now where we're really

489
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: trying to see if we can get them early enough

490
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: before they act and catch them either when they're planning it,

491
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 3: because many most of them give and give a warning.

492
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: So that's where the interview is hard, because you have

493
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: to know how they whether they're telling you the truth

494
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: or not a lot of times to tell you what

495
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: they think you want to hear is the problem.

496
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had respect for you before. It's just gone

497
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: up even higher. That you understand the importance of interviewing,

498
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: because that's one thing that I think detectives we don't

499
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: get the training, and it is crucial, It is absolutely crucial.

500
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 1: And I found that the most stimulating part of my

501
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: career in criminal investigation was sitting down in the interview room.

502
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: And I was fortunate enough to have people that I

503
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: really respected, and I just I was like a sponge

504
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: learning from them the way that they approached the interview

505
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: and the thought process that went into how we're going

506
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: to approach.

507
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: That level of detail.

508
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: They had before they stepped into the interview room, so

509
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: they could pick up and drop things when it suited them,

510
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: like contradict the person's version of events. And I love

511
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: the fact that you say people lie in interviews and

512
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: don't tell the truth, because I've had I've worked with

513
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: some people and they come out and go, oh, but

514
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: he seems like a nice man. It looks like he's

515
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: telling the truth. And I haven't got any But I

516
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: wanted to pull my hair out because it would just

517
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: frustrate me. Frustrate me so much. But the approach that

518
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: you take in the interview room, the atmosphere you create.

519
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to refer to a fictional TV show,

520
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: but I've been binging on mind Hunter in the lead

521
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: up to this rewatching it. There was one part in

522
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: season one and the character, I think it was the

523
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: character portrayed portrayed on you and they were interviewing a

524
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: suspect and it was a female involved in a murder

525
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: where there was the husband and the brother in law

526
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: of something. And she would used the words splashed as

527
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: in it was splashing about blood as in stabbing.

528
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: And the point that was made.

529
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 1: Just with that one comment that she was there when

530
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: that crime occurred. She wasn't relaying it.

531
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: I tried the person was still alive. Yes, that's one

532
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: of our cases, one of the early cases. I was

533
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: also going to say, you have to we train, or

534
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: the FBI trained for doing an interview versus doing an interrogation.

535
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: There are two different.

536
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: Well that's another great point.

537
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so you have to know there's techniques

538
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: for each one that are very important I think for

539
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: investigators to learn, and I bring in when I'm teaching it.

540
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: I have a retired FBI person who's really good, really

541
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: good on the difference, and he will roleplay it as

542
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: and he plays the subjects to the subject and one

543
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: of the agents to have to interview him or have

544
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: to interrogate him.

545
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: I prepared and it was shown to me. That's something

546
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: I've adopted and I've tried to pass it on because

547
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: I would lecture about interviewing on courses, and I would

548
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: prepare before I went into the interview room for a

549
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: couple of scenarios. One is that the offender is going

550
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: to put their hands up and confess, So then it's

551
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: about gathering all the facts that you need to present

552
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: it to court and make sure it's a done deal.

553
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: Then the second, and this can change during the course

554
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: of the interview. The second thing. Okay, if the offenders denying,

555
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: what type of line the questioning, how you're going to

556
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: approach it. I think you need to be flexible when

557
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: you step into the interview.

558
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: Room, absolutely, and you have to know your material. You're

559
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: so right, you have to know because then you can

560
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: catch them in a lie. That's what the agent would do.

561
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: And then once you catch them in a lie, he

562
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 3: doesn't dare to do it, he better not do it again.

563
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can drop that at the appropriate time

564
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: when you point out that they've just lied. Sometimes their

565
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: lies are as good as a confession if you can

566
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: contradict what they've got. But anyway, you just get me

567
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: excited about my police career. It makes me want to

568
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: go back in and be a homicide detective. So the

569
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: early days when you and my understanding, John Douglas and

570
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: the team were going out and interviewing serial killers getting

571
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: a lot of information, and that was going to let

572
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: against the grain or the thinking at the time that

573
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: will what are you going to get we've locked them up.

574
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: What are you going to get from these people? What information?

575
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: They interviewed a cross sector, not a cross section, but

576
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: they interviewed quite a few serial killers that were in

577
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: custody by the nature, and I would imagine that most

578
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: people I know in that that field, they like to

579
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: talk because they're board in jail, so it's pretty easy

580
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: get if you walk in there, they're they're happy to

581
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: talk to you. The information they got when it was

582
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: shown to you, I think you looked at them thought

583
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: that it's amazing, but the it hadn't got the structure,

584
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: the academic structure, or the way that they were extracting

585
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: the information. Can you talk us through that, how you

586
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: came to be working with those guys and what you

587
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: brought to the table from the information they had.

588
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 3: Sure they needed what we got an interview, They needed

589
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: a questionnaire so that we collect the data systematically, and

590
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: that that's in my end counter that that doctor Wendy

591
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 3: Kark tries to do that. It's kind of funny the

592
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: way they do it. But at any rate, we had

593
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 3: fifty seven pages. It was five sections color coded, and

594
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: it had to do with the crime element itself. They

595
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 3: had to do with the victim. It had a section

596
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: that just was on the forensics, any forensics that were found,

597
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: and last one was on aspects of the crime that

598
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 3: we were interested in, and so we take all of that. Now.

599
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 3: What they would do, though, is they would collect all

600
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 3: of the records that they possibly could, and that's where

601
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: there was the advantage. So it wasn't just going in

602
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 3: and doing a cold interview, you know, it was having

603
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: all the information so they knew when they could whether

604
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 3: he was telling the truth or not because the records

605
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: would have contained that. And then all of that was

606
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 3: run data, and that's how we came up with the

607
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 3: patterns we call patterns and motives and serial homicide. That

608
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 3: was big question they had. They didn't know what was

609
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 3: the motive in these many of these killings, and we

610
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 3: determined it had to have a sexual motive, even though

611
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: it didn't look like a sexual crime. So many of

612
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: the myths were or the biases were dispelled there getting

613
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: here to go in and even though the victim may

614
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 3: be fully dressed, et cetera, et cetera, we began to

615
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 3: realize and talking with them afterwards, to make your point

616
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: about what can you learn if in talking with the

617
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: is that they would have the victim dress themselves, they

618
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: would rape, they'd have the victim dressed themselves, and then

619
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 3: they killed so that it looked like it wouldn't look

620
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: like a sexual kitten. And you wouldn't think of that, right.

621
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 3: So that was just one little example of why we

622
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 3: were able to it. But we needed that information from them,

623
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: and that was tell me about what you did and

624
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 3: how it was, and just keep encouraging them to talk

625
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 3: about it and in a naturalistic way. And they, as

626
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: you said, they like to talk. There would be things

627
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: though that they wouldn't say, they wouldn't reveal, and I

628
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: always wanted and you always knew that had to be

629
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 3: something very personal, and that's where a lot of the

630
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: trauma stuff was found. When they couldn't about that. They

631
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: could boast about what they did to the victim, and

632
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: they can do, but when you ask them about their

633
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: own life, childhood, growing up. Those were some of the

634
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: very the very acts that they couldn't talk about, and

635
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: it usually was going to be something related to some

636
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: sexual act that had been done to them.

637
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: It's interesting that the sexual side of it that comes

638
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: into comes into the killings. I was investigating serial killer

639
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 1: three children that we've been battling through the courts for

640
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: a very, very long time, three Indigenous children, and part

641
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: of the problem was there was an argument that, well,

642
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: how can you link these crimes evidence on one of

643
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: the murders, and my position was that they're linked. The

644
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: children were all known to each other, They're living in

645
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: the same street in a small country town. They disappeared

646
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: over a five month period. Two of the bodies were

647
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: recovered dumped in a bush track on the outskirts of town.

648
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: The first victim's clothing that she's wearing at the time

649
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: of her disappearance was dumped in the river at the

650
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: end of that dirt road. I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, a

651
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: pretty common sense that this is in a very small

652
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: country town, these crimes are committed by it by one person,

653
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: and I would argue with legal people that would be

654
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: because we're trying to push the matter through.

655
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: The courts and the one stumbling block I had there.

656
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: Was a sixteen year old girl, sixteen year old boy,

657
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: and a four year old girl, and the legal minds

658
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: were saying, well, you know, the victims not even the

659
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: same sex, different age and all that. Sarah yure, she

660
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: looked through it, and when she tells me it's so

661
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: common sense, I'm sort of kicking myself. Wire didn't formulate

662
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: this idea to start with. She said that it's a

663
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: serial killer, but killing the end result because he was

664
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: driven by sex. The person what he was looking for.

665
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: Sixteen year old girl sexually attracted to that lady, the

666
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: sixteen year old boy sexually attracted to the girlfriend of

667
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: the sixteen year old boy, and the four year old

668
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: girl sexually attracted to the mother of the girl. So

669
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: Sarah broke it down. This person was prepared to kill

670
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: for their sexual gratification. And then once I started articulating that,

671
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: people started to get it and understand, Okay, this is

672
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: how those crimes are linked. Different ways of looking at things.

673
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely yeah, And we would find that, and you

674
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: would when you had I would always ask when you

675
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: had multiple victims, is which one did you like for something?

676
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: Which one did you like sexually, which one did you like?

677
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: You know, and you would find some differences there when

678
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: you had when they were all sexually murdered, is there

679
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 3: had been one that really stood out and it was

680
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: fascinating the one that and this one killer he had

681
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: killed ten or eleven and I was really amazed at

682
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: the one that he picked was the most sexually gratifying

683
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: after he killed her. And that what's important is it

684
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: can be in the act of killing. I'm trying to

685
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: think if we had any that they would talk about that.

686
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 3: It was hard to get them to talk about it.

687
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: But that's that's where some of the payoff would be

688
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: in learning more about what it meant to kill, what

689
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 3: ultimate question.

690
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: You know, getting to understand one of the killers over there, Camper.

691
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 3: At Temper, Yeah, yeah.

692
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: Tell us a bit about that.

693
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: It was portraying the mind Hunter series, and I've read

694
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: up a little bit about him. I think it was

695
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: fairly close to the type of personality was tell us

696
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: about those crimes.

697
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 3: Well, Kemper always would kill very fast because he didn't

698
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: want the victim to suffer, right, I mean, that's that's

699
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: amazing that you know, figure that one out, and so

700
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 3: he would kill and then he would do the sex.

701
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: So he was a thataviliac. He'd got more out of

702
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: doing things to the victim after he killed. And I

703
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 3: would compare him to Monte Rissel, who was just the opposite.

704
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: He was a rape murderer. He would rape first and

705
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: then kill, whereas Kemper was just the opposite. And that

706
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 3: he now he had he had both domestic murders as

707
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 3: well as stranger murders. He had remember his grandparentsparents. Yeah,

708
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 3: his grandparents were first, and he shoots grandmother in the

709
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 3: back and she turns him back to him to return

710
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: to whatever she was doing, and then he waits for

711
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: grandfather and claims, well, he knew that he would grandfather

712
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: would be up to see grandmother and dead. Well, I

713
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: suppose that's true, but still there is more to it

714
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: than that. And men who look at who he kills

715
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: last as his mother, and he thought that there would

716
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: be the end, but of course it wasn't, and he

717
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: luckily did turn himself in. He's still alive, you know.

718
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've watched, I've seen him actually interviewed.

719
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 4: I'm saying I've wanted to kill my mother since i

720
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 4: was eight years old and I'm not proud of that.

721
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: And then a month later I'm up living with my

722
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 4: grandparents in the mountains, and ten months later I murdered them,

723
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 4: and I knew I was paranoid at that moment. I

724
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 4: knew anybody that came up there and give me a

725
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 4: funny look or fishy eye or quizzical look out of

726
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 4: blowing their brains out thinking they were coming to get me.

727
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 4: And if had been in a city, I would have

728
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 4: been a mass murder at age fifteen. I would have

729
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 4: killed until he gunned me down. I wouldn't have been

730
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 4: able to reason my way out of it. I was

731
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 4: scared to death and I was violent. I felt my

732
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 4: back hit that wall. I was the rabbit that always ran,

733
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 4: that always backed away, always burns bridges. Suddenly there weren't anymore,

734
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: and my back hit that wall, and I came out

735
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 4: screaming and kicking and shooting. When more months after I

736
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 4: was out, I was back into the fantasy bag. I

737
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 4: was losing a grasp on something that was too violent

738
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 4: to keep inside forever. As I'm sitting there with a

739
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 4: severed head in my hand, talking to it or looking

740
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 4: at it, and I'm about to go crazy, literally I'm

741
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 4: about to go completely flywheel loose and just fall apart.

742
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 4: I say, wow, this is insane, and then I told myself, no,

743
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 4: it isn't. You're saying that, and that makes it not insane.

744
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: It's quite chilling, isn't it. But that yes, And that's

745
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: the work that you're looking into and the work that

746
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: you uncover in homicide investigations. What's going on in their mind?

747
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: Well, they're very bright, that's the problem, is there. Very bright.

748
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 3: He's very articulate. I mean, he could stand up like

749
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: he's giving a lecture.

750
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: And you'd be fascinated. Wouldn't you sit there?

751
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: If you stood up there and gave an election, you'd

752
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: be sitting there going this is incredible.

753
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: But yes, he's not charming in a psychopathic way, but he's,

754
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: as you say, more captivating. Interesting.

755
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the way he relays it. What was when

756
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: you first started working I got the scenes with the FBI,

757
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: and probably it would have been difficult for you because

758
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: we're talking the seventies at this stage when you started

759
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: with the FBI started working with the fbies.

760
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: Mainly in the eighties the end of the seventies.

761
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: Yes, there would have been some resistance to even a

762
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: female coming in and a nurse coming in to help

763
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: these fbiddes. What type of resistance did you get there?

764
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 3: And part of that I was kind of intrigued with

765
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: that is I wasn't a threat. See, oh she's a nurse.

766
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 3: Now you know she doesn't what does she know?

767
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: Right?

768
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 3: What do women know? So there was I am sure

769
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: now that was never said to me, but I am

770
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: sure that was part of it. Now. Bob Wrestler tried

771
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 3: to get his projects started before a couple of years before,

772
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: and he was shot down in terms of we're investigators.

773
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: Leave the research. We're not research, we're not interested in that.

774
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 3: Leave that to the social work. So he had to

775
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 3: wait until, like I retired, and then it brought it

776
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: up again, and this time he had William Webster, who

777
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 3: was young. He was academically inclined. He wanted to pull

778
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: the qualifications of the academy up, so he was very

779
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: much in favor of doing it. But he warned Bob,

780
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: he said, don't do any shoe box research and got

781
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: to make the feral look good. Don't do anything to

782
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 3: embarrass us. You know that was always there, as which

783
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 3: you can understand.

784
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: I can imagine that's interesting. You picked up that. Yeah,

785
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: and you're saying you're not that you didn't hear them talk.

786
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: I can assure you they would have been talking about you.

787
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: It's a nurse, and they would have been a lot

788
00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: of a lot of comments. There was there's one crime

789
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: where people started like there was that slow resistance in

790
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: what could you bring to an investigation, but when it

791
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 1: was demonstrated. I think there was one particular case where

792
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: you show that could be used as an investigative tool,

793
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: Like it's one thing to gather the data and understand

794
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: why these people are in jail. But the naysayers might say, well,

795
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: who cares, We've locked them up, let's work on the

796
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: next one. But you demonstrated the skills that you guys

797
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: were compiling and the information and the understanding that it

798
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: could be worked in a strategic way. Can you talk

799
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: about that particular case.

800
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 3: I'll see, well, you under one of the special cases.

801
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 3: I think that the Jolbert case was a very good

802
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 3: example of that, and that was the case of young boys.

803
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: Two young boys were killed within a matter of three months,

804
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: and that really terrified the community. These one was the

805
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: son of a military colonel, I think, and they would.

806
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 3: They were all in the morning, early morning, and that's

807
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,479
Speaker 3: where wrestlers thought, this is somebody that either is coming

808
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: off work that he can he's going out and doing

809
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: this and sure not that match when we finally got hot,

810
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 3: when they finally identified it. But Russa put the profile

811
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 3: down almost to a t. He got everything. He said,

812
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: this is something. It was out in Nebraska, and he said,

813
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 3: this is going to be someone that is military on

814
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: the air base. They had offered air base was out there,

815
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 3: that he will be an E I think he's an

816
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: E four And that was the only thing he got wrong.

817
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: He was an E three, just one level, isn't that amazing?

818
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 3: And that he would do this after he came home

819
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 3: from work, and he would have also do some work

820
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 3: with young people. He was the junior director of the

821
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 3: Y of the Boy Scouts. He had murdered that day

822
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 3: and he went to the evening night with the parature

823
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 3: all there talking about that. I mean, you can imagine

824
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: how that played out in his mind. I mean, that

825
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: was very and it was John jo Bert turned out

826
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: to be who the suspect was, and they got him. Luckily,

827
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 3: they put they used the technique of media. They put

828
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 3: out the profile out there and said anybody that sees

829
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 3: anything suspicious please let us know. And by golly, there

830
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: was a teacher that had watched that and she had

831
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 3: this strange person had had come near her and she

832
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: thought was acting suspicious and she uh, she took down

833
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 3: his license plate number and called then and this is

834
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 3: it turned out to be. She was one digit shy,

835
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 3: but it was easy to run through they you know. Anyway,

836
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: that was the John jo Bert case, and they got

837
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 3: him who was out looking for another victim, and they

838
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 3: he would say he would go out all the time

839
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: just looking for a victim, and if the everything was right,

840
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 3: he would act. So that I think is where they

841
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: combined their strategies of some good detective work but also

842
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 3: led it to some of the things that we were finding.

843
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 3: And that was a very important case. And then they

844
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: founded that that case was Bob would do that back

845
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: at Quantico, and one time a detective came up to

846
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 3: him after class and said, you know, this sounds like

847
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 3: a case that we had that we couldn't solve of

848
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: a young eleven year old boy up in Maine. And

849
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 3: Bob said, send us the material, and by golly, they

850
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 3: got it was they solved it with and he confessed,

851
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 3: so he really had three and he had prior little

852
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 3: encounters with that kind of what we call the practice.

853
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 3: He would ride his bicycle and like try to hit somebody,

854
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 3: and turned out that he had three other victims. Not murder,

855
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,720
Speaker 3: but three other victims is practice. So that was put together.

856
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: What they're going to start off doing something as a

857
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 3: way and it escalates up and they murder.

858
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: That's interesting and it's another interesting side of understanding the

859
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: crime and understanding because when you're looking back at a

860
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: person's criminal history, there might be a willful obscene exposure

861
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: early and then it's a low level sexual assault, just

862
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: an assault but with a sexual overtone and then you're

863
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: looking at that history and they're not My take on

864
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,439
Speaker 1: it from a detective point of view was okay, well,

865
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: it's not rocking their boat anymore. They're not getting the

866
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: enjoyment from that level of crime, and it escalates, escalates

867
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: and gets to the point where the crime becomes more horrific.

868
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: But looking for those type of patterns, I would imagine

869
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: you see those type of patterns when you're looking at

870
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: the ind of the criminal minds. These serial killers like,

871
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: I don't think they just there would have to be

872
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: red flag leading up to them committing crimes of that nature.

873
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: Would that be fair to say, that'd.

874
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 3: Be fair to say. Yeah, Well, Kember even said he

875
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 3: was going to go looking and become what we would

876
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: call a mass shooter if he hadn't stopped that he

877
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 3: wanted to go and take out more people than just one.

878
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: And that's very scary.

879
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: It is scary. Will look like I could hear. I

880
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: know it's it's in the evening over there. I could

881
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: keep you here all night, and I promised you a

882
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: certain time we might might take a break here. But

883
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: I just leave with the thought. I was speaking to

884
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: had her on the guests on My Catch Killers, Laura

885
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: Richard's crime and Analysts. Yeah, and she was talking about

886
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: the names that serial killers get.

887
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 2: And I like Laura.

888
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: She's got a practical sense and she understands the concerns

889
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,399
Speaker 1: when they're stalkers. But she made the point about these

890
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: serial killers, they get names, and we're like it over

891
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: here in this country. We've got the backpacker killer, we've

892
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 1: got the granny killer. They all seem to get names.

893
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: And she suggested that you should certain killers should be

894
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: called the small penis killer or something like that, just

895
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: not to make it, not to give them that grandiosa

896
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: with it, because with yeah, you can you can imagine

897
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: that would have been something Laura said.

898
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: But I understand, yeah, I understand.

899
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: That's where where she's coming from in that the profile

900
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 1: that they get and it's the police and the police

901
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: start working on this type of killer and the media

902
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 1: get hold of it. When we get back into part two,

903
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the use of the media

904
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: and the work that you do and how to use

905
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: the media properly, because I saw in the high profile

906
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: cases over here that the media is a real strategy

907
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: and a real tool, And any time I spoke in

908
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: the media, I was speaking what I believe directly to

909
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: the offender, and that was very strategic in the way

910
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: that you approach it. So we might delve into that

911
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: and quite a few other things if if that's something,

912
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: So we'll take take a short break now, okay, m hm.