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Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land, Always was, always

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Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land. Hey cheeks, I'm sal and I'm out.

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Speaker 2: And this is Two Broake Chicks, the show that shares

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Speaker 2: life lessons and tips to help make you rich in life.

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Speaker 2: And today we are joined by Ellen Seer, clinical psychologists

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Speaker 2: with an expertise in social, generalized and performance anxiety, also

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Speaker 2: working on a PhD currently around perfectionism. So in today's episode,

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Speaker 2: we're are bringing you a survival guide for anxious girlies.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited, SOA and I was saying before we've

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Speaker 1: got our notes ready, I'm gonna have yeah. Okay, and

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Speaker 1: where do we begin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, we're very excited to get into the episode,

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Speaker 2: but before we do, we like to start with a

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Speaker 2: life lesson of the week.

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Speaker 4: So, as our guest, would you like to kick us off?

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, life lesson?

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Speaker 3: Let's think about this and what's important is to add

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Speaker 3: levity and playfulness to life and certain example of thinking

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Speaker 3: of it's this thing where I've been sending my husband

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Speaker 3: these weird husband habits like you know, I don't know

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Speaker 3: whether you've seen them, but like a cat is looking

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Speaker 3: shocked where they're saying, it's shocked because you know, a

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Speaker 3: husband can go to work and come back and spain

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Speaker 3: all these complex things, but then when it comes to

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Speaker 3: finding mustard in the fridge. Yeah, so I send it

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Speaker 3: to him and a chat with him and then he

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Speaker 3: rolled his eyes. I laugh about it. My daughter also

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Speaker 3: laughs about it because we all agree on these.

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Speaker 1: Weird quick absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So that's the thing that I've been learning to to

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Speaker 3: try to dore.

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Speaker 1: Playful more playfulness. I love that play is like one

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Speaker 1: of my main values in life. So I love that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what's yours olf.

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Speaker 1: Mine is to embrace the impromptu plants sometimes with social

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Speaker 1: things or events like that, or plans. I like to

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Speaker 1: have it in my head that that's what I'm doing,

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Speaker 1: Like it's very Sometimes if it's like let's do this

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Speaker 1: randomly and sporadically, I'm.

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Speaker 5: Like, but I haven't plans for it, like I haven't

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Speaker 5: socially spiritually, and I think for me, I'm trying to

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Speaker 5: like move away.

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Speaker 1: And the reason why this is my life lesson of

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Speaker 1: the week is because this week's Soal was over working

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Speaker 1: at my house and normally we would work. She would

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Speaker 1: come over at like nine, and then we would work

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Speaker 1: till maybe about five thirty six and then so I

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Speaker 1: would head home. But it got to about four o'clock

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Speaker 1: and it was a really beautiful day. Spring is springing,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, do you want to go for

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Speaker 1: a walk, and like that is the weirdest thing for

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Speaker 1: us to do at the end of the day, to

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Speaker 1: be like, let's go for a walk. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: you can borrow a T shirt. You've already got your

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Speaker 1: sneakers on. And we went for like an hour and

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Speaker 1: a half walk and we like full and went for

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Speaker 1: a full and walk. We got back and I was like,

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Speaker 1: do you want to stay over a cookbuster and watch

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Speaker 1: a TV show? And you like stayed over like not planned.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'll order the ingredients and then we

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Speaker 1: watched a TV show and you went home like that's

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Speaker 1: the highlight of my week, Like I had so much fun. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's my life. Lesson of the week is to embrace

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Speaker 1: the impromptu plans a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that, especially midweek.

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Speaker 1: Say you had fun too, Oh, I had the best time.

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Speaker 2: My life lesson is that your words are the seeds

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Speaker 2: that you sow, and it's a reminder that I got

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Speaker 2: and I've actually heard it before, and it was on

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Speaker 2: Queer Eye, one of my favorite shows, and JBN, who

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Speaker 2: is one of the one of the people in the

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Speaker 2: cast of the show, was saying to one of the

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Speaker 2: heroes of the episode that when you talk badly about yourself,

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Speaker 2: you should yell crop failure because your words are the

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Speaker 2: seeds that you sow, and if you're saying bad things

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Speaker 2: about yourself, you're growing like weeds and bad plans about yourself.

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Speaker 2: So when you catch yourself talking to yourself negatively, say

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Speaker 2: crop failure and remind yourself that your words of the.

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Speaker 4: Same that you say.

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Speaker 1: I like that.

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Speaker 2: We'll hold someone very good. Okay, we've got our life

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Speaker 2: lessons out of the way. Let's get into the episode,

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Speaker 2: shall we.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that I very much struggle with

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Speaker 1: understanding that I think multiple people would as well, is

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Speaker 1: how can we tell the difference between normal stress and

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Speaker 1: clinical anxiety?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, first things first, anxiety is an emotion is

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Speaker 3: actually a very normal human part of the human experience.

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Speaker 3: So saying that though when we're talking about normal stress,

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Speaker 3: in clinical anxiety, the difference between the two is generally

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Speaker 3: one stress or normal stress is very time limited response

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Speaker 3: and there's an often identifiable trigger or triggers, whereas clinical

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Speaker 3: anxiety is more pervasive, persistent, a sense of fear that's

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Speaker 3: kind of difficult to control. And the other thing is

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Speaker 3: that it has kind of negative consequence in on how

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Speaker 3: it interferes in our light functioning. Okay, yeah, so do

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Speaker 3: you think to bear in mind one in clinical anxiety,

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Speaker 3: it's the symptoms are more intense, longer lasting, as well

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Speaker 3: as higher inference in our functioning.

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Speaker 1: Is clinical things that you know, Sometimes people can have

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Speaker 1: that feeling of I feel stressed, but I don't know why.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, sometimes I think we'll get into it later.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes what happens is that we get triggered into

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Speaker 3: feeling anxiety and our bodies have a sudden response, and

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Speaker 3: there's residual effects that can occur, and that can go

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Speaker 3: on for a little while. So it might seem like

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Speaker 3: as if nothing else is happening or there's no stress

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Speaker 3: a present, it's very obvious, but then that's because the

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Speaker 3: residual effects of that fight flight response.

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Speaker 1: Is going on. Yeahs I have that. I'm like, I'm stressed,

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Speaker 1: but I can't remember why, And then I sit there

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Speaker 1: and I try to remember why I'm stressed. And then

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Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes I will oh, yeah, there's that thing happening

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Speaker 1: and I've got to figure that out. Or sometimes I'm like,

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Speaker 1: did I just drink coffee on an empty stomach? I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And sometimes external circumstances that can contribute to that,

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Speaker 3: Like that's just saying sometimes coffee can do that towards too, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like a bad night's like or whole morning changes too.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Does anxiety show up differently in women in comparison to men, Well.

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Speaker 3: The stats show that women experience anxiety in life. A

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Speaker 3: third of women experience anxiety in life at least once

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Speaker 3: in life. And then men on your compare men, it's

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Speaker 3: a one fifth of men who experience it. So women

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Speaker 3: generally experience anxiety more and earlier than men. Wow, is

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Speaker 3: that there are lots of different hypotheses around it. There's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, genetics and brain chemistry, but there's certain tendencies

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Speaker 3: that women have that kind of also add to the mix. So,

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Speaker 3: for instance, women have a tendency to worry and overthink

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Speaker 3: ruminate more than men would in instead of engaging in

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Speaker 3: problem solving, we do this perservative thinking. Which obviously then

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Speaker 3: adds or exacerbates the anxiety.

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Speaker 1: What's what.

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Speaker 3: Perservative never kids thinking? Let's see, the thinking keeps going

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Speaker 3: on like worrying and wow.

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Speaker 1: So if there's like a problem, it's like, oh, but

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Speaker 1: this could happen, and then this could happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it keeps going on and there's no like

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Speaker 3: there's it's almost like there's no way of problem solving

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Speaker 3: and it's always just thinking of the surface all around it.

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Speaker 3: And that doesn't help in a lot of situations when

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Speaker 3: anxiety has been triggered.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine as well due to like most women

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Speaker 1: playing care given roles, that would also play into that statistic.

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Speaker 3: That's actually really interesting because if you think about it,

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Speaker 3: women have socialized at a very young age and even

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Speaker 3: continue to be reinforced with this idea of you need

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Speaker 3: to kind of think about your interpersonal environment a lot

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Speaker 3: more so. Good example is girls need to play nice,

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Speaker 3: right or don't be that difficult woman that you know

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Speaker 3: you get a lot, whether in workplaces or you know,

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Speaker 3: just in interpersonal relationships. But with that sort of kind

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Speaker 3: of internalized learning, you're more likely to people please than

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Speaker 3: not right. So because of that, the anxiety you know

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Speaker 3: to the anxiety to be kind of cope with the anxiety.

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Speaker 1: People.

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Speaker 3: Women tend to do people pleasing a lot because that's

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Speaker 3: a way to kind of deal with with the surroundings

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Speaker 3: that they're supposed to tune to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like be a good girl. Yeah, whereas for you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of men, it's all boys will be boys. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They are kind of more focused on what they're doing

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Speaker 2: rather than other people's feelings and carrying that emotional labor,

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Speaker 2: and people.

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Speaker 3: Don't responds strongly if men do it versus a woman

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Speaker 3: that's doing it too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Women have a tendency to people please because it's a

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Speaker 3: way to cope with the anxiety. Right, It's been something

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Speaker 3: they've been taught to think and believe that that's how

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Speaker 3: it should be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like I think I've been told I don't

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Speaker 1: even know how many times of you know, don't be bossy,

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Speaker 1: and so when you just said don't be difficult, then

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that takes the thing in my brain

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Speaker 1: that even when i'm I find my stuff, when I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to people, I will explain the end of my

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Speaker 1: sentence before I finish my sentence of being like I'm

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Speaker 1: asking this question not because I don't think of this

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Speaker 1: this or that or this. I'm just asking because I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to know this, and I over explain to

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Speaker 1: try and get ahead of any assumption that you're difficult,

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Speaker 1: that I'm difficult or bossy. And yeah, so that really

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Speaker 1: ticked it.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned overthinking and people pleasing.

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Speaker 2: What are some other common ways that young women typically

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Speaker 2: experience anxiety, because I know that perfectionism is maybe one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So perfectionism, if I can define it a little bit,

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Speaker 3: it's basically that you know, in sitiable, striving for very

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Speaker 3: unrelenting standards often comes with self criticism and a self

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Speaker 3: worth that's very dependent or contingent on achieving those standards.

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Speaker 3: With women and men, they're not huge gender differences, but

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Speaker 3: there have been some studies that's shown that women have

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Speaker 3: a tendency to kind of perceive that others are expecting

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Speaker 3: perfection out of them. So what that means is a

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Speaker 3: female perfectionist will be more stressed out or more anxious,

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Speaker 3: because not only do they all have their own high

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Speaker 3: standards that they're anxious about, they're thinking about what other

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Speaker 3: people are expecting of them as well. So add that

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Speaker 3: all to the mix. You can just see how that's

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Speaker 3: layer over layer of anxiety that can affect a woman.

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Speaker 3: Of female perfectionists at least, is that.

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Speaker 4: Strive towards perfectionism getting worse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the research has shown that it's been increasing over

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Speaker 3: the years. There are reasons for that, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: it's societal kind of expectations, parenting, more anxiety, helicopter parenting,

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Speaker 3: you know, the need to sort of achieve definitely, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of the emphasis on perfection in media, social media advertising,

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Speaker 3: those sorts of things can affect body image kind of

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Speaker 3: issues too, right, because interestingly, the sort of stats on

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Speaker 3: male the number of males who have body image dissatisfaction

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Speaker 3: has tripled over the last twenty five years. So it

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Speaker 3: does affect women, you know, because obviously the slick perfect

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Speaker 3: body standard it's so emphasized that it's affecting men as well.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I would never have guessed that, And again that's not

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Speaker 1: to say I sat here thinking, no, I don't have

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Speaker 1: a problems or anything like that, but it goes to show.

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Speaker 1: And I am not surprised by that because you also

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Speaker 1: see on social media a lot of these I've seen

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Speaker 1: so much in like male gym and body building and

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Speaker 1: that have such an uptick, especially on YouTube, that there's

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Speaker 1: heaps of that, and I am not surprised. We very

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Speaker 1: often say on the show to filter your feed and

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Speaker 1: that if anything is making you feel bad about yourself,

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Speaker 1: which like recovering people pleasers here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the algorithms don't help because obviously you're getting more

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Speaker 3: and more of what you're looking at.

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Speaker 4: It's like a toxic loop, like.

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Speaker 1: What's happening inside your brain when you're getting anxious.

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Speaker 3: I can tet know what happens inside your body, so

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Speaker 3: tell me that. That's even better. So when we face

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Speaker 3: like threat order, which is when anxiety tends to be triggered,

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Speaker 3: what we are hardwired as human beings to to be

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Speaker 3: responding is to find ourselves wanting to run away from

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Speaker 3: the thread or fight, fight, stand and fight the threat, right,

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Speaker 3: So that's your five flight response. Often this is going

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Speaker 3: to protect you because it's going to keep you from

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Speaker 3: getting hurt or you know, not surviving. But the thing

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Speaker 3: is it affects three different major systems in the body,

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Speaker 3: or of three major systems of the human being, one

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Speaker 3: being the physical, which is what you're interested in, but

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Speaker 3: there's also cognitive, the cognitive system and the behavioral system

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Speaker 3: that gets affected in the five flight response. In the

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Speaker 3: physical body, what we're looking at is the body gets

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Speaker 3: ready to fight off lee and some Some examples of

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Speaker 3: those physical symptoms could be increases in heart rate, increase

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Speaker 3: in the strength of the heartbeat, breathing gets you know, faster, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sweating, sweating target hot and cold.

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Speaker 3: But you think about it, these things are making you

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Speaker 3: prepare yourself to either fight or flee or get ready

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Speaker 3: to run away.

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Speaker 1: But other things too.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting is that if you think about it, not

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Speaker 3: essential systems, your activities in those areas will drop too.

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Speaker 3: So you know, your guess, your intentional system not important

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Speaker 3: in the running away and the fighting. So some people

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Speaker 3: get that nausea or the stomach issues because of that

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Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, so it's all it's all about preparing

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Speaker 3: you to run away or fight because that's keeping you safe.

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Speaker 3: The issue is it has this like I was saying earlier,

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Speaker 3: it does. It does take time for it to diep

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Speaker 3: It doesn't just kind of go immediately, and so when

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Speaker 3: when your body needs that time.

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Speaker 1: That's one thing.

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Speaker 3: But the other thing is there's residual effects that can

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Speaker 3: last a bit longer, and so you're not sure, why

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Speaker 3: am I so anxious right now? Why is my body

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Speaker 3: reacting this with you? And there's obviously not obvious trigger

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Speaker 3: that's going on right now. Yeah, So from a physical

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Speaker 3: point of view, that's kind of what goes on in

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Speaker 3: your body. But it's really again trying. It is designed

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Speaker 3: to get you to be safe, keep yourself safe. The

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Speaker 3: only thing is your brain isn't actually a tune to

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Speaker 3: or at least fine tune enough to differentiate between an

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Speaker 3: actual threat and a perceived threat. You know, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense, right, bus is coming up

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Speaker 3: to you. You want to be able to react fast, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that's what the five flight response is. But when

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Speaker 3: it's about like oh, you know, I dropped my.

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Speaker 1: Pen, or or your boss just saying can we talk

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Speaker 1: it three.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, that's all a perceived threat. But your brain

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Speaker 3: doesn't differentiate between those two. It just tells you, come on,

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Speaker 3: five flight response, start going. Yeah. The other thing I

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Speaker 3: was saying too, is the cognitive system gets affected. So

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Speaker 3: people find themselves when they're anxious, their thoughts are racing

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Speaker 3: a lot. And that's because it makes a lot of

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Speaker 3: sense if and it's an actual threat you want to

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Speaker 3: quit thinking to occur, right, You want to be able

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Speaker 3: to make rapid decisions. Not so great when you're you know,

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Speaker 3: trying to figure out what exactly is my boss wanting

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Speaker 3: from me? And then that sort of creates a whole

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Speaker 3: like you know what, worries that kind of start getting

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Speaker 3: really more and more anxious. So concentration gets shot too

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Speaker 3: sometimes because you're consumed by what this danger is all about.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't really think logically.

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Speaker 2: But is it also true that if you're experiencing like

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Speaker 2: clinical or chronic stress and anxiety as well, that those

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Speaker 2: receptors are more likely to go off like quicker than say,

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Speaker 2: if you were, you know, perhaps feeling anxiety at like

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Speaker 2: a normal in quotations, Right.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't be about to share exactly because it's not

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Speaker 3: really my area. But if you think about it from

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Speaker 3: a reinforcement sort of sort of aspect, if you're doing

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Speaker 3: that already, there's more likely of a chance for you

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Speaker 3: to continue to then look at more negative or have

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Speaker 3: bias lance towards your thinking about any sort of triggers

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Speaker 3: or any situation that comes about. Yeah, so yeah, I

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Speaker 3: would think I would say if I can answer that

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Speaker 3: from that angle, I would say that's kind of where

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Speaker 3: I would take that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.

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Speaker 4: It is sort of like that habit loop.

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Speaker 3: So behaviorally, the five flight response or anxiety how anxiety related.

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Speaker 3: The behavior is we can to avoid, and that can

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Speaker 3: be avoidance of all sorts of different things from situations

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Speaker 3: that you might one might avoid, or task that might

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Speaker 3: or actions that one might avoid. Procrastination and indecision are

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Speaker 3: good examples of that. There's cognitive and emotional avoidance, so

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Speaker 3: things like zoning out because you know you don't want

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Speaker 3: to have to think about things, or toxic positivity. It's

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Speaker 3: another way of you know, emotionally avoiding or you know,

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Speaker 3: cognitively avoiding as well. There are certain types of avoidance

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Speaker 3: that are almost subtle avoidance. They caught safety behaviors in

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Speaker 3: that you don't avoid things completely, but you do it

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Speaker 3: with some some behaviors that make you feel a bit better.

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Speaker 3: So a good example is like seeking reassurance excessively because

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Speaker 3: you you're wanting to feel like as if you're doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing, or you're you're preparing in excess when

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Speaker 3: you're doing work or assignments. Those are sorts of avoidance

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Speaker 3: that I would say, you know, are associated with anxiety.

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Speaker 3: I have to say avoidance is not all bad because

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Speaker 3: some of it's also a key. So you want to

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Speaker 3: think of it as a Yeah, so you need to

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Speaker 3: think of it as a spectrum. But the way you

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Speaker 3: want to think about it is if it's interfering in

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Speaker 3: your living a life that's purposeful and meaningful, or it's

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Speaker 3: done in excess, or it's getting in the way of things.

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Speaker 3: That's when it's kind of productive and unhelpful.

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Speaker 1: Where does defensiveness sit into that? So in that way,

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Speaker 1: defensive So for example, if you felt like you're in

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Speaker 1: an anxious situation and you've jumped on the defense protect

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Speaker 1: like protectiveness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you remember that fight flight response, So

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Speaker 3: usually the fleeing response is the avoidance, right, Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: fighting response is really what you're talking about when you're

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Speaker 3: talking about defensiveness, because it's a way to react to

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Speaker 3: protect yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in that case, it's another form of an anxiety

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Speaker 3: related response.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I find that was definitely something I would do

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Speaker 1: growing up. It would be like no, no, no, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean it like that, or I didn't say that,

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Speaker 1: or no no, that would be like, my it would

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Speaker 1: be like a way to walk back, but also be like,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't mean it, but it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And also you're like you can jump on the

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Speaker 2: defense before they have their chance to say anything else

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Speaker 2: that also like could potentially hurt your feelings or even

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Speaker 2: something that you may know is true, like they may

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Speaker 2: have a good point. So that's really interesting because it's

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Speaker 2: like you would think that some of these things are helpful,

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Speaker 2: but it is like self soothing to the point that

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Speaker 2: it actually could be harmful. Is I guess, how do

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Speaker 2: you know the difference between those two things, if it

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Speaker 2: is helping or if it is just self soothing.

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Speaker 3: So, like, as I was mentioning, key things to think

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Speaker 3: about would be is this done in excess? Right? Am

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Speaker 3: I doing it too much? Am I over relying on

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Speaker 3: it where I can't do life without having it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Or if it's getting in the way of me living

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Speaker 3: a life that's values aligned, I'm not living a meaningful

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Speaker 3: life because I'm avoiding all these things. So I'm not

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Speaker 3: living a meaningful, purposeful life because I'm always on the defense,

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Speaker 3: or I'm not making decisions. So things like that will

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Speaker 3: give you an idea of whether or not this behavior

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Speaker 3: is actually helpful or kind of productive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you have any affordable strategies to help

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Speaker 1: reduce anxiety, because obviously if you're in a position it

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Speaker 1: is always you know, we always recommend speaking to professionals,

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Speaker 1: and this episode is absolutely not the be all and

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Speaker 1: end all for anyone that is feeling like they need

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Speaker 1: to have some assistance with their anxiety. We absolutely recommend

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Speaker 1: going and seeing your GP. You're talking to a professional,

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Speaker 1: but in your experience, what are some popular ways that

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Speaker 1: have worked for some people or some strategies and keeping

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Speaker 1: in mind it's not a one size fits all approach.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So some things that can be helpful are thinks

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Speaker 3: like soothing, calm breathing, or relaxation exercises that does that

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Speaker 3: whole of bringing that flight flight response down a bit

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Speaker 3: from where it can get to because we get triggered

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Speaker 3: by environl mental or internal triggers. Other things like you know,

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Speaker 3: making sure your life's maintaining a healthy lifestyle can be

401
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Speaker 3: a good foundation. So being active, going for your walkies,

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Speaker 3: spending time with friends and family, pick. Yeah, eating, well,

403
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Speaker 3: another thing that's also useful would be being kind to yourself,

404
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Speaker 3: Like because what that does is activates another part of us,

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Speaker 3: which is a soothing system part of us. Right, whenever

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Speaker 3: we're in thread mode, we've activated a threat system. Whereas

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Speaker 3: when we're kind to ourselves and were engage in that

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Speaker 3: soothing system that can hopefully moderate some of that threat

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Speaker 3: system that's going. That's been activated, and that's why the

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Speaker 3: anxiety is there.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of it is like building

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Speaker 1: a foundation. It's not necessarily like thinking, Okay, i'm anxious,

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Speaker 1: now I'll do this. It's more like building yourself up

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Speaker 1: to be able to deal with those moments because obviously

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Speaker 1: life is going to have stresses.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, combination, obviously you would have the one that you

417
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Speaker 3: know give you that foundational supports or buttresses you know,

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Speaker 3: your ability to be resilient and to cope with different

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Speaker 3: life challenges. But obviously there are strategies that you would

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Speaker 3: use in the moment or you know you would, You

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Speaker 3: would not avoid and you would face the challenge versus

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Speaker 3: you know, going with what the anxiety tends to tell

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Speaker 3: you to do it just you run away or avoid

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Speaker 3: the situation.

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Speaker 1: I always love a shower, Yeah, a shower. It always helps,

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Speaker 1: Like if I can feel it's like a kettle boiling,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's going like and I'm like, oh, the

428
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Speaker 1: spiral is happening. I'll get in the shower.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes people find the sensory some sensory activity is helpful

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Speaker 3: and again bringing us back into that window of tolerance

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Speaker 3: because we're in hyper arousal mode. So in doing some

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Speaker 3: of these most sensory or embodied strategies, it helps with that.

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Speaker 3: You know, sometimes that cup of tea or things like

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Speaker 3: that can be helpful, but it's not a cure all obviously.

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Speaker 3: It's just things that you can add to the mix

436
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Speaker 3: to try and help yourself with managing some anxiety. Yeah.

437
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Speaker 3: Another thing is also just being more present. So steeing

438
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Speaker 3: in the present will help you not kind of go

439
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 3: into a place of rumination about the past or worrying

440
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 3: about the future.

441
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 1: Is I don't know if this is just in movies

442
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: that I've seen, but isn't one strategy like naming things

443
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: you see in the room.

444
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's a grounding technique that sometimes people use. Again,

445
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 3: it's creating this sense of being more in the present

446
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: rather than getting caught up in the past or in

447
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 3: the future.

448
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think this is something that we've tried

449
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: as well before. And I don't know if this is

450
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: technically a strategy for staying present, but it's writing down

451
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 2: what the problem is and like what the potential solution

452
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: or outcome could be. Like we literally had a really

453
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 2: stressful conversation the other day and Alex was like, get

454
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: your notepad, write down like what's happening and what the

455
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: worst case scenario will be, and like it's there, it is,

456
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 2: And I did feel like that helped me be like, Okay,

457
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: well I've written it out of my brain and then

458
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: now I'm not like Alex is doing.

459
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 4: A little I am a therapist, I'm very good friends exactly.

460
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 2: But it was and it wasn't being like oh well

461
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: i'll and then I crumpled up the paper and threw

462
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,719
Speaker 2: it away, like that's not what happened. We still had

463
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: to have the difficult conversation, and but it just made

464
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: me be like, Okay, well, this is this is what

465
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: I'm anxious about, this is the potential outcome.

466
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 4: The worst case scenario is this.

467
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 1: I can deal with that.

468
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like now I'm not going to spiral on

469
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 4: it because it's just on this piece of paper.

470
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, I think that's a combination of sort of

471
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 3: what we call being dumping, which is taking it out

472
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: and externalizing it, because sometimes when it's kind of looping

473
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 3: around in our heads, all it does is it takes

474
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: us away from being present and problem solving, and instead

475
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 3: we go into the escalating more of like worrying about

476
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: what could be the worst potential thing and not.

477
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: An elephant could come out and trample me, and then

478
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: and then a fire happens and then oh my god,

479
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: I've been dumped and oh my lad. Yeah, my brain.

480
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 3: But that literally happens in people's minds when they're getting

481
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: anxious because again, that five flight response is getting you

482
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: to think really quickly, and more and more things they

483
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 3: put into it creative.

484
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: Right, So I am literally an award winning author. Inside

485
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: my brain, I hate it and she's me and it's me.

486
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: But why do we always get anxious thoughts right before

487
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: we're about to fall asleep?

488
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, if you think about it, when you're falling asleep,

489
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 3: there are there's a lack of daytime distractions going on,

490
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: and the day you're busy, you're focused, you're preoccupied by

491
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 3: all sorts of things that you're doing and trying to

492
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 3: get done. Yeah, the time when you're about to fall asleep,

493
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 3: there's none of that. Your brain now has all the

494
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 3: space to go, let me think about that and that

495
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: and that and that.

496
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: Right.

497
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: The other thing is we often do this thing, or

498
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 3: at least in modern times, people do this thing where

499
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: they just work all the way or they player all

500
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: the way until the very end of the day where

501
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 3: they go to sleep. And so you're less likely to

502
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: wind down to have that space to do some of

503
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: that stuff that pops up in your head and go, okay,

504
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 3: let me put that down for something to do tomorrow

505
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 3: or so on and so forth. So that's also going

506
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: to be another sort of space and another reason for

507
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: why you're more likely to then have that raising mind

508
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 3: going on as you're about to fall asleep. There's this

509
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 3: weird vicious cycle that can occur too, because if you're

510
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: anxious and thinking about all of these things as you're

511
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 3: falling asleep, you're less likely to be sleepy and want

512
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 3: to fall asleep. Then sometimes what your brain does it

513
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 3: does this thing where it goes, oh, no, why can't

514
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: I fall asleep and.

515
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: So and then full sleep exactly be tired, and.

516
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 3: As you're not telling yourself to do things. Sometimes just

517
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: doesn't quite work like that, Right, So there's this vicious

518
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: cycle that can occur, right, The anxiety not being able

519
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: to fall asleep causes anxiety, The anxiety causes you do

520
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: not fall asleep further, so it goes around and around

521
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: like that.

522
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, toxiccle But I think good reminder to have that

523
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: wind down before bad and focus on that sleep hygiene.

524
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 2: Is anxiety ever something to be embraced, Like, is there

525
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 2: such a thing as good anxiety?

526
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: Well?

527
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: I think anxiety is a misunderstood emotion. It's got a

528
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: bad rap, right because whenever you think about anxiety, what

529
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: your sense of it is, it's something I don't want

530
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: because it's bad.

531
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: Right.

532
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: We want to try and get rid of it as

533
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: much as possible, or not experience it as much as possible.

534
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: The issue is that anxiety is part and parcel of

535
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 3: an evolutionary system called the threat system. Right. It signals

536
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 3: to us things that are important or dear to us

537
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 3: that might be threatened. And so if that threat system

538
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: is being activated and signal, anxiety is a signal, it's

539
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: telling us okay, come on, there's something to be aware of.

540
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: But it should motivate us to then try to solve

541
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: the problems around it or try to maintain some safety

542
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: around it. Right the issues we don't do that, we

543
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: end up doing all sorts of other things besides what

544
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: it's signaling to us our because, like I said, our

545
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: brains don't find tune the differentiation between actual and perceived

546
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 3: threat or imagine threat. With so much exposure of triggering

547
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: that triggers anxiety. In this day, in each whether it's

548
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: social media or whatever it's on the news or whatever

549
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 3: you see, you're going to be activated a lot and

550
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: you have these thoughts of like anxieties bad. I don't

551
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 3: want to have anything to do with it. Shouldn't exist,

552
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: it's intolerable. The combination of it's going to make you

553
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: more likely to go I'm not going to accept this

554
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: at all. Yeah, if we have that kind of attitude,

555
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: it's going to intensify the anxiety rather than allow.

556
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: For you to take It's called toxic sleep cycles. A

557
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: bit like you're saying, don't be anxious, you're going to

558
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: be anxious, and then being anxious makes you anxious. Then

559
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: you're get exactly I'm getting it.

560
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 3: It's about then taking a more validating and accepting stands

561
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: towards emotions, the emotion of anxiety, so making room for

562
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 3: it rather than trying to struggle to get rid of it,

563
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: allowing yourself to recognize it's there for a reason. What

564
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: is it trying to tell me? Versus kind of going

565
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: just get it out of my life altogether?

566
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeap Oh, that's amazing And I think that's a really

567
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: great way to look at it as well. Like I'm

568
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: assuming you've seen Inside Out too.

569
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, that's both of them. One and two would

570
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: be a recommendation that I would see if you want

571
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: an easy way of learning about emotions. Yeah, those animated

572
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: movies are good ones.

573
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: They're the best. I sob in both of them. They're

574
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: so beautiful. And the actress who voices anxiety, she was

575
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: in an interview when the movie came out, and she

576
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: said that learning like being that character made her learn

577
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: that her anxiety is only ever trying to help. Yeah,

578
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: and like that. I just thought it was such a

579
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: beautiful rhetoric that I've tried to remember, not always, but

580
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: tried to remember being like this is just like my

581
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: anxiety is just trying to help me in this moment

582
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: to figure out whatever it is, or to alert me

583
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: to whatever I perceived as a thread or a problem

584
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: that I need to fix. But to wrap up the episode,

585
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: I would love to ask you our final question, and

586
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: is there a myth about anxiety that you would like

587
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: to retire for good?

588
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: Well, I think aligned with just with what we've just mentioned,

589
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: I would like to retire the myth of anxiety is

590
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: bad because it's not inherently good or bad. It's just

591
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: part and part all of the human experience. And if

592
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: we want to learn to live with this very natural

593
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: part of being human, we've got to embrace it. We've

594
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: got to allow for it, to for ask to make

595
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: room for it when it occurs, and listen to it

596
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: when it's seeing something to us as important perfect.

597
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: I love that. That's a great note to end on.

598
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: I think, thank you so much, amazing.

599
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: It was a really great conversation, and I do think

600
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: that so many of the chicks listening will get a

601
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: lot out of the episode. But for anybody who has

602
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: resonated with this conversation and wants to learn more about

603
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: their own anxiety and how to deal with that and

604
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: how to embrace that, do you have any suggestions on

605
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: some resources or things that people can go do after

606
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: listening to this episode.

607
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: Well, I think, as you guys had mentioned before, seeking

608
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 3: therapeutic help would be very helpful.

609
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 2: Right.

610
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: That support is very idiosyncratic and it's based on what

611
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: you know you might need, and the therapists were be

612
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: able to do that or psychologists will be able to

613
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 3: do that for you. As for resources, I can send

614
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 3: you links that you know you can Yeah, that's why

615
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: you want to do that. The government has this this

616
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: particular website which allows for you to do a quiz

617
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 3: and even tailors kind of where what sort of help

618
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: would be useful. Plus there are government supported services digital

619
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: services like mind spot, so people who people who prefer

620
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: that sort of medium can also do that and it's

621
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: I believe it's free. But there's a few things like

622
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: that that the one can also look for.

623
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: Am going to do that survey.

624
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: I know all the links in the shiner as well

625
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: as a link to your website too, so people want

626
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: to learn more about you, which I'm sure they will.

627
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: But thank you so much for coming on the show today,

628
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Thank you so much chicks

629
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: for having us in the ear holes. We love to

630
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: be here and thanks to m ik Made for making

631
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: today's episode happen.

632
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye