Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In Part two of I Catch Killers, I continue my
Speaker 1: chat with Andrew Stamper, who is a former commander of
Speaker 1: Victorian Homicide Squad and the Missing Person Squad. Andrew takes
Speaker 1: us deep inside the investigation of the brutal rape murder
Speaker 1: Eurodissy Dixon, who was killed by a stranger while she
Speaker 1: was walking home. That was a really sad case. After
Speaker 1: facing some of the worst of humanity, we also discussed
Speaker 1: the pressures of leading major investigations and how he survived
Speaker 1: so long at the sharp end of policing. Have at
Speaker 1: listened to what Andrew has to say? Andrew Stamp, Welcome
Speaker 1: back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's always good to speak to a cop. We seem
Speaker 1: to speak a certain language. This is not in my
Speaker 1: show notes here, but I'm going to say this Michael Francisi,
Speaker 1: that he's a mafia capo. You look exactly like him.
Speaker 2: Is that right? Check where from.
Speaker 1: New York mafia? He's a big He was a capo
Speaker 1: in the Columbia Mafia in New York. He was one
Speaker 1: of the most powerful mafia figures going around in his time.
Speaker 1: I've had him on the podcast and I also did
Speaker 1: a tour around the country. As strange as that sounds,
Speaker 1: with mafia cape, but have a look when you reform, reform, reform,
Speaker 1: I think Edie's peak he was earning eight million dollars
Speaker 1: a week. He was in had some scam going with
Speaker 1: petrol xiz and all that. But yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: real deal.
Speaker 2: But obviously a fairly good look and.
Speaker 1: A great a great style of a black Yeah. But
Speaker 1: I just sitting there just look. Yeah, anyway, we'll get back,
Speaker 1: get back on topic. When we're talking the other day,
Speaker 1: you were talking about the pressures of leadership leading high
Speaker 1: profile investigations, but you also mentioned the word and it
Speaker 1: made me think too about the loneliness of leading investigations
Speaker 1: because you've got people sitting above you and you're answering
Speaker 1: to them, You've got your team underneath you that you're
Speaker 1: trying to support them. It can be a fairly lonely position,
Speaker 1: can't it.
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, Yeah, the amount of times I said in
Speaker 2: my office, and you do feel like you know the
Speaker 2: meat in the sandwich a little bit, because, yeah, the
Speaker 2: expectations of the higher level. You put all your efforts
Speaker 2: into looking after your team as well and making sure
Speaker 2: that you know that or trying to do your best
Speaker 2: to make sure that you know that their welfare is
Speaker 2: guided for. And something that often used to occur to
Speaker 2: me is that no one ever used to come and
Speaker 2: tap me on the shoulder, and you know, certainly from
Speaker 2: the higher level. And I'm not critical in it because
Speaker 2: I think you.
Speaker 1: Know that's just that's the nature of the position.
Speaker 2: You get lost as a as a senior investigating officer,
Speaker 2: and it's something that I've spoken about, you know, certainly
Speaker 2: the leadership forums around the country as well, that it
Speaker 2: can be a lonely place. And that's why, you know,
Speaker 2: I was always and still am a big advocate for
Speaker 2: self care and looking after yourself because I don't think
Speaker 2: you can look after others unless you look properly, unless
Speaker 2: you look after yourself. So that's that's been something that
Speaker 2: I've I've been a strong advocate for.
Speaker 1: How did you manage that? How did you manage a
Speaker 1: pressure looking after yourself?
Speaker 2: I did a lot of a lot of fitness work,
Speaker 2: Like I run, not as far or as as well
Speaker 2: as I used to.
Speaker 1: Still you've still got one good brother.
Speaker 2: Still I was still I was still out running this morning,
Speaker 2: even with a bit of sunshine in Melbourne. So running,
Speaker 2: you know, has been a big thing for me. I
Speaker 2: love the rhythm of running, and you believe it or not,
Speaker 2: I listen to hip hop music so big shout out
Speaker 2: here to the hilltop who you know. For some reason,
Speaker 2: I just kind of just like the rhythm of it.
Speaker 2: It just kind of yeah, just put some of that
Speaker 2: on and go for a run, and it just helped
Speaker 2: me to clear clear my head. And you know, another
Speaker 2: fitness work. There's a lot of research now that shares
Speaker 2: that actually proves that resistance training, so lifting weights is
Speaker 2: a great thing for your mental health too, and I'd
Speaker 2: be a strong advocate for that, But I I use
Speaker 2: a word of caution as well now, and that you
Speaker 2: know from my own personal experience. I think fitness, like
Speaker 2: any other medication, should come with a bit of a
Speaker 2: warning that you can do too much of it. And
Speaker 2: I don't think at times that I probably started to
Speaker 2: wear myself out physically through exercise, through trying to actually
Speaker 2: come my brain a little bit. So that's a word
Speaker 2: of caution there. I do think there's no no medication
Speaker 2: for mental health better than getting out in the fresh
Speaker 2: air or going to the gym and having a good workout.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like anything else, you can become a bit
Speaker 2: addicted to it, and it can become if you let it,
Speaker 2: it can turn into a bit of a negative as well.
Speaker 1: So when you say running, I used to do a
Speaker 1: lot of running as well, and it's like a moving
Speaker 1: form of meditation. You could just get in and lose
Speaker 1: yourself in that, and that's the way I Yeah, twenty
Speaker 1: five years investigating homicides, and that's the way I would
Speaker 1: deal with it like the physical training like people you okay,
Speaker 1: and I would and encourage my team. I thought there
Speaker 1: was nothing better than the team building. If we all
Speaker 1: went down to the gym at lunchtime, if the time
Speaker 1: was there, or if I knew we had a busy day,
Speaker 1: let's all train in the morning, get it out of
Speaker 1: the way, and then we can do what needs to
Speaker 1: be done.
Speaker 2: And it's changed a lot over the years, and that's
Speaker 2: very much, you know, I think, you know, cops have
Speaker 2: all different areas, you know, far more in the fitness now,
Speaker 2: whereas you know, it's not the life that we started
Speaker 2: off with. Certainly, you know, it was more likely to
Speaker 2: go down the pub at the end of the day
Speaker 2: and go to the gym. But you know, certainly for
Speaker 2: me for the last twenty five years as well, it's
Speaker 2: been more around fitness and just kind of looking trying
Speaker 2: to look after myself that way.
Speaker 1: Well, when you say not to go over the top.
Speaker 1: When I first started in the end, whole up squad,
Speaker 1: and this is year up squad of the eighties, so
Speaker 1: you eighties and early nineties, so you can imagine the
Speaker 1: amount of the drinking that was going on there. I
Speaker 1: was heavily into my fitness, and I got to the
Speaker 1: point where I was just burning myself out. I can't
Speaker 1: drink all night then train all day and try to
Speaker 1: fit work in there. So I sort of stepped away
Speaker 1: from the drinking and thinking I can't can't keep this
Speaker 1: pace up, but the fitness side of things. But look,
Speaker 1: I think it's an important message and hopefully people that
Speaker 1: are listening to this might be encouraged to join the
Speaker 1: police or even police officers listening to it. Like it's
Speaker 1: helped me with a lot of pressure going through it.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you that's the first thing you
Speaker 1: say about the benefits of physical training to get you
Speaker 1: through the get you through the pressure. And it helps
Speaker 1: on those jobs when you're up for twenty four hours
Speaker 1: and that, and I could see that the people that
Speaker 1: could handle the pace of that when you know, some
Speaker 1: of those jobs come and you just got to operate
Speaker 1: without sleep and just keep pushing forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I'd still go to the gym
Speaker 2: at the end of that as well. And people think
Speaker 2: you're crazy, you know, you've been up all night, but
Speaker 2: you know, just go to the gym just to wind
Speaker 2: down a little bit and I'm certain towards the end,
Speaker 2: I preferred to work out at the end of the
Speaker 2: day rather than the beginning of the day. It's just
Speaker 2: kind of the way it worked with me, just to help,
Speaker 2: just to clear my brain a little bit before I
Speaker 2: got home.
Speaker 1: No, I think it's a good thing. And if my
Speaker 1: team were looking for me, they'd say I was in
Speaker 1: the happy place, and that happy place was a gymnasium
Speaker 1: or the local police boys club in case I want
Speaker 1: to want to talk about. It's a horrible case, and
Speaker 1: I think it touched on a lot of people because
Speaker 1: of the nature of the crime and just the randomness
Speaker 1: of the crime. Was the murder of a comedian. You're
Speaker 1: a DC am I pronouncing that correct? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think eurrot Is or Eurydicy Youdic Dixon.
Speaker 1: She was only twenty two years old and was raped
Speaker 1: and murdered walking through the streets of Melbourne. You're involved
Speaker 1: in that matter, Can you tell us about that case?
Speaker 2: I was in charge of homicide of that particular time
Speaker 2: when that happened, and you know, as you know, you
Speaker 2: as leading the squad like that, you've got a lot
Speaker 2: of people that are actually doing the hands on stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I've got to actually make a big shout
Speaker 2: out to the people that actually, you know, manage that
Speaker 2: investigation from the start, because I have a strong feeling
Speaker 2: about that particular investigation, and we caught that individual within
Speaker 2: twenty four hours, and my view is that he would
Speaker 2: have gone on and done more if we hadn't. It
Speaker 2: was so random the way it happened, and his trajectory
Speaker 2: of offending was so significant. I honestly believe that if
Speaker 2: he hadn't been called, he would he would have gone
Speaker 2: and done more. So I've got enormous pride and respect
Speaker 2: for the people that actually ran the investigation. I as
Speaker 2: being in charge of the squad, was the public face
Speaker 2: of that at the time, which was which was particularly
Speaker 2: difficult because I think when you get cases like that,
Speaker 2: you really run the full, the full spectrum of public emotions.
Speaker 2: And I came to learn a lot around you know,
Speaker 2: how a community grees when there's something like that, and
Speaker 2: there's phases of community grief. I think the first one
Speaker 2: is when something like that has happened is just is
Speaker 2: just absolute shock, and then it kind of goes to sympathy,
Speaker 2: and then it kind of goes to anger and then
Speaker 2: into why you know, why did this happen. There's there's
Speaker 2: really specific phases of it, and I really felt it
Speaker 2: through that time, you know, and I copped I copied
Speaker 2: a bitter criticism about some comments that were that were made,
Speaker 2: and I think unfairly there were some elements of the
Speaker 2: media that were happy to kind of jump on and
Speaker 2: drive an agenda and really didn't recognize the amazing work
Speaker 2: that had been done by the cops to actually find
Speaker 2: this individual and holding to account ultimately and stopping from
Speaker 2: doing it to anyone else.
Speaker 1: I'll talk about that criticism that you got because I'm
Speaker 1: aware of it, but the actual crime, it was literally
Speaker 1: a person and this is these are quite often the
Speaker 1: sad ones, someone in the wrong place at the wrong
Speaker 1: time with a presator.
Speaker 2: And I hate to use the analogy because it just
Speaker 2: seemed so so insignificant in terms of what happened. But
Speaker 2: it was a sliding doors moment. You know. He just
Speaker 2: happened to be standing on you know, pretty much on
Speaker 2: the corner of Flint Destreet and Swanston Straight outside Young
Speaker 2: and Jackson's hotel and Erotics. Was was walking down Swanston
Speaker 2: Straight and he just happened to see it and you know,
Speaker 2: she was from what I understand she was, you know,
Speaker 2: she was in a really happy mood and he just caught,
Speaker 2: you know, caught, caught a look at her and for
Speaker 2: whatever reason, decided to start following her. He followed at
Speaker 2: the length of Swanston straight up towards Carlton to you know,
Speaker 2: where Melbourne University is and which is where he attacked her.
Speaker 2: But he stalked her for a significant period of time
Speaker 2: and it was all based upon that initial contact and
Speaker 2: and it's something that's really stuck with me and in
Speaker 2: that and other cases, how unfair it can be that,
Speaker 2: you know, because if if he'd looked left instead of right,
Speaker 2: well you know, it wouldn't it wouldn't have happened. And
Speaker 2: it's it's just so it's just so tragic. It's just
Speaker 2: so tragic. But yeah, it was certainly, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to find the right way to communicate that to the
Speaker 2: community because there had already been other cases here in
Speaker 2: Melbourne and certainly I'm sure elsewhere in Australia as well,
Speaker 2: where where the public messaging around that had been criticized,
Speaker 2: around victim blaming, and it's it's really difficult to know
Speaker 2: what to say, and certainly, you know, the media conference
Speaker 2: that I did around that is as a whole story
Speaker 2: in itself, it's probably the biggest one I did in
Speaker 2: my career. And bear in mind we'd arrested him at
Speaker 2: that stage, we knew that there would be someone somebody
Speaker 2: would ask the question around the safety of you know,
Speaker 2: women and walking the streets, and how do you how
Speaker 2: do you answer that? I mean, I would I would
Speaker 2: love to live in utopia where we don't have to
Speaker 2: worry about walking the streets. But as the father of
Speaker 2: a daughter, I remember that night. We we were sitting
Speaker 2: around having dinner that night and my son after i'd
Speaker 2: you know, there had been criticism of the way that
Speaker 2: you know, and there was only some sections of the
Speaker 2: media that basically accused me and others have kind of
Speaker 2: blaming the victims. My son actually said, you know, well
Speaker 2: why do they do that? And my daughter was sitting
Speaker 2: sitting at the table as well, and I used it
Speaker 2: as one of those you know, whether you call it
Speaker 2: a teachable moment, you know, in these days, and it
Speaker 2: was it was actually a moment for him to actually say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, my daughter at that age was training, she
Speaker 2: was going to the gym. You know, she was going
Speaker 2: there at certain times because she didn't want to be
Speaker 2: at the gym at certain times, because you know, there
Speaker 2: was more blocks there. And I knew that she parked
Speaker 2: her car in a certain place at the gym where
Speaker 2: there was more light, and you know, because she went
Speaker 2: there a bit later. And I said to Will, you'll
Speaker 2: never have to worry about that, you know, And this
Speaker 2: is reality. And it breaks my heart that we you know,
Speaker 2: there are sections of us, you know, society and someone
Speaker 2: who's very dear to me that they have to have
Speaker 2: these extra considerations in life and extra concerns in life.
Speaker 2: But it's sadly, it's the reality of the society that
Speaker 2: we live in. And you know, people say, well, how
Speaker 2: can we fix that? Well, you know, we could go
Speaker 2: to a Singapore style of society, where you know, there
Speaker 2: are far more consequences for bad actions, far more control
Speaker 2: I suppose over the individuals. Would I put my hand
Speaker 2: up for that one percent one percent, But the majority
Speaker 2: of people wouldn't, wouldn't want that, you know, so we're
Speaker 2: not going to have that.
Speaker 1: And the criticism, my understanding, flowed on it from warning
Speaker 1: that women should be safe walking home at night, or
Speaker 1: just be cautious or something as innocuous as that. That
Speaker 1: sort of.
Speaker 2: I recall this because I have about and again this
Speaker 2: is another story for over a beer one day, but
Speaker 2: I had about literally about one minute to prepare for
Speaker 2: that for that media conference. I didn't want to do it,
Speaker 2: and you know, but it actually came from above that
Speaker 2: somebody they wanted us to do it. We actually we
Speaker 2: charged an individual, and we didn't normally do press conferences
Speaker 2: after we charge someone. But because there was so much
Speaker 2: a feeling in the community about it, the thought from
Speaker 2: the very senior level of our organization was that there
Speaker 2: needed to be some reassurance messaging put out there. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I went to our media unit. I had about one
Speaker 2: minute to prepare. They gave me a whole heap of
Speaker 2: media lines and I scanned through them and I looked
Speaker 2: at ninety nine percent of them. I said, I can't
Speaker 2: say that because we charged someone. And then they'd given
Speaker 2: me a version of if you do get that question,
Speaker 2: well what it should be, and I kind of thought, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was really My response was something along the
Speaker 2: lines of we all have to be aware of our
Speaker 2: environment and you know, in our personal safety and that
Speaker 2: was about it, and there have been some other comments.
Speaker 2: So I'd done a media interview with the divisional commander
Speaker 2: for that area earlier in the day, and you know,
Speaker 2: he sort of copped a bit of a bit of
Speaker 2: flag for that one too. But I think, you know,
Speaker 2: in terms of the effort that we were putting into
Speaker 2: behind the scenes to actually catch this catch this individual,
Speaker 2: or that we had done it. You know, at that time,
Speaker 2: we'd actually done it. We'd taken him off the streets
Speaker 2: and charged him, and it had been an incredible piece
Speaker 2: of work to do that. It was unfair. But you know,
Speaker 2: again I've put a lot of thought into it over
Speaker 2: the years and thinking about, you know, how a community
Speaker 2: grieves when something like that happens. And it's right that
Speaker 2: we should, because we should be outraged if a young
Speaker 2: woman can't walk home safely and has you know, and
Speaker 2: it's subjected to an evil act like that, we should
Speaker 2: be outraged. And so I actually, you know, put a
Speaker 2: lot of thought into actually just you know, how a
Speaker 2: community does grief something like that. And again, I think
Speaker 2: it's just one of those times where you've got to
Speaker 2: ride the waves as a sort of senior police member
Speaker 2: and think, well, this is just kind of part of
Speaker 2: that grieving process.
Speaker 1: Grief.
Speaker 2: We all want answers. We all want to know, how
Speaker 2: do we stop this from happening again. That's that's the
Speaker 2: most important part of it. How do we stop it
Speaker 2: from happening again? And you know, I wish we could.
Speaker 1: I think you your instinct on that case too, like
Speaker 1: a crime like that happens, that we got to catch him,
Speaker 1: or this might occur again.
Speaker 2: Was right?
Speaker 1: That's the way I would look at the crime, the
Speaker 1: crime of that nature. Do you know, I think he
Speaker 1: was nine, nine years old, you know, if he had
Speaker 1: any any history leading up to it, was there.
Speaker 2: Anything really inocuous from memory? There was basically nothing else.
Speaker 2: I said, you know, that was his offending. The trajectory
Speaker 2: of you know, his offending just went from basically zero
Speaker 2: to one. That was the one thing I think with
Speaker 2: him that made me think if we didn't get him quickly,
Speaker 2: that he would see this and he would feed off
Speaker 2: the notoriety or what he would see as the notoriety
Speaker 2: and and look to do it again. And as we
Speaker 2: all know, over time, there's been serial killers who have
Speaker 2: gone on and done that. Unfortunately, they don't happen as much.
Speaker 2: And I'm touching Wood really seriously here again now. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that is to do with,
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the technology and a lot
Speaker 2: of the accountability in society. I think I think it's
Speaker 2: a lot harder for someone like that, but you've got
Speaker 2: to get on to him quick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And I think investigative practices have approved and
Speaker 1: involved evolved, and that's why, Yeah, there's less of the
Speaker 1: serial predators. And we're also have a bit more of
Speaker 1: an understanding like serial killing identified as serial killers that
Speaker 1: we're looking for that only came out around in the
Speaker 1: seventies when we started talking and talking and talking about that.
Speaker 1: And I think the way that we communicate between the
Speaker 1: different law enforcement agencies and understanding the nature nature of
Speaker 1: the crime we're reducing it. A crime like that adds
Speaker 1: another layer of pressure, doesn't it. When the team that's
Speaker 1: investigating it, And as you said, you're sitting as the
Speaker 1: boss of homicide at the time and there's a team
Speaker 1: working under I'm at pains to explain anytime we're talking
Speaker 1: about I did this or that. It's always a team environment.
Speaker 1: You are working working in the team, but the team
Speaker 1: heading up that investigation would have felt the pressure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think your job as the boss there
Speaker 2: is to is to shield them as much as you
Speaker 2: possibly can. And I always felt that that was my
Speaker 2: most significant role in those times when you did get
Speaker 2: an investigation like that, was to actually be the buffer
Speaker 2: and let them do their work, which is we both
Speaker 2: know they do really well, I mean ultimately. And there
Speaker 2: was a decision that we had to make on that one,
Speaker 2: and we had to make it pretty quickly, and because
Speaker 2: we did, we got a photograph and we weren't one
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure at the time that it was the
Speaker 2: person we were looking for, but certainly it was someone
Speaker 2: who who we could say it was a significant person
Speaker 2: of interest. And I remember looking at the time, it
Speaker 2: was like quarter to sixth and I thought, we we've
Speaker 2: got to get.
Speaker 1: This on the evening meet news.
Speaker 2: And you know, as you know, putting a photograph on,
Speaker 2: you know, potentially the national news when you're not one
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure comes with it comes with risk. So
Speaker 2: we had to be really careful around our wording as well,
Speaker 2: you know that this was a person of interest, and
Speaker 2: and again this was it was probably one of those
Speaker 2: where having good contacts in the media came to the
Speaker 2: four as well that we could make some quick phone
Speaker 2: calls and you know, tell them, look, this is you know,
Speaker 2: we've got this is hot news. You basically hold the
Speaker 2: front page and we got it on We got it
Speaker 2: on the news. It was brought to his attention. From
Speaker 2: my recollection is that people known to him were ringing
Speaker 2: him saying, all your photos on the news. And he
Speaker 2: turned himself into to a local police station and and
Speaker 2: our people shot out there straight away and spoke to
Speaker 2: him and yeah, and he never saw the light of
Speaker 2: day again, thankfully. So you know, those decisions that you
Speaker 2: have to make on the fly sometimes which come with
Speaker 2: an element of risk, and you kind of have to,
Speaker 2: you know, make that assessment, well is it worth it?
Speaker 2: And you know, in that one it definitely was. But
Speaker 2: the work that had gone into getting that photograph of
Speaker 2: him during the day, involving viewing of multiple CCCTV, you
Speaker 2: know that that to me is the stuff that I
Speaker 2: must respect by of the people that actually sorted through
Speaker 2: all that and actually got that photograph and.
Speaker 1: The position I find it makes you you're proud as
Speaker 1: a cop being involved in that type of stuff where
Speaker 1: you see a team of crimes happen like that and
Speaker 1: you watch it work like a well oiled machine, and
Speaker 1: everyone's bringing their skill set to the investigation, and you
Speaker 1: just see how much progress can be made in twenty
Speaker 1: four hours. They just can absolutely get through it when
Speaker 1: you've got dedicated, highly skilled people working on the case,
Speaker 1: and they're the type of things that break the cases
Speaker 1: wide open, aren't they?
Speaker 2: Definitely? And that dedication, I mean it's, you know again,
Speaker 2: I used to think it's a bit like conducting an orchestra.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you've just you just And I always saw my
Speaker 2: role predominantly as being, as I say, looking after them
Speaker 2: and giving them the tools. I often used to say,
Speaker 2: I work for you, not you work for me. You know,
Speaker 2: That's the way I want you to look at it.
Speaker 2: I'm here to you know, I'm here to work for you,
Speaker 2: to give you the tools and the and the freedom
Speaker 2: to do the job that I know you can do.
Speaker 2: And and time and time again, they just, you know,
Speaker 2: they just amaze you the work that they do.
Speaker 1: Step up and I think, yeah, having a boss, like
Speaker 1: by the time you've got there, you've got that experience,
Speaker 1: you know what investigators, you know how to support them
Speaker 1: you'd probably even get them a whiteboard or something like that.
Speaker 2: Would you whiteboards have gone out of fashion a life,
Speaker 2: I think, are electronic whiteboards now unfortunately?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what about the intros? We used to fight
Speaker 1: over the intros. It would be punch homicide that we
Speaker 1: want those.
Speaker 2: What about a teleidex? You remember the old the things
Speaker 2: that we used to find about. But yeah, we're a
Speaker 2: little bit more technically advanced now, not to say that
Speaker 2: they could do with a lot more. And there's you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of technical innovations that
Speaker 2: are coming in now, which was stuff that we were
Speaker 2: starting to look at when I left it. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just amazing with AI now and machine learning.
Speaker 1: And well yeah AI. That's actually if I was speaking
Speaker 1: to Graham simpondor for about that that very thing, because
Speaker 1: it's an area that he's into now after he's got
Speaker 1: out of the police and how that can change investigations
Speaker 1: and the use of that. But that's a story for
Speaker 1: another time. Another case I want to talk about is
Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen Flinders Street the vehicle attack. Nine people injured.
Speaker 1: I think one of those people died. Tell us about
Speaker 1: that because that's that's it's a type of crime that
Speaker 1: scares me, where one person acts out alone. You know,
Speaker 1: they used to be called lone wolves, and now I
Speaker 1: think that type of crime is a loan actor. Can
Speaker 1: you describe that that situation to us and what your
Speaker 1: involvement in that matter was.
Speaker 2: Well, I was, I was. I think it was on
Speaker 2: call that night and I remember it because it was
Speaker 2: my youngest son. It was his graduation night from from
Speaker 2: primary school and happened. I was at the school primary
Speaker 2: fate and you know, as you know, you start getting
Speaker 2: phone calls, your phone's going off, and you're trying to
Speaker 2: concentrate on what you're there for.
Speaker 1: You look like a dickhead in the school assembly when
Speaker 1: you're walking out to take facals.
Speaker 2: And you know, saw these significant nights in your life
Speaker 2: and things like that happen and you kind of you know,
Speaker 2: you get a little bit of a report and then
Speaker 2: you think, we'll see how it develops, and and then
Speaker 2: you start to realize this is big. Well, I was
Speaker 2: lucky that night because Tim Day, who at that stagement,
Speaker 2: charged a homicide and I think I was looking after
Speaker 2: missing persons. Tim was still around and I told him
Speaker 2: where I was, and so he said, well, look well,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll look after it till till midnight or whatever,
Speaker 2: till whatever time you can get there, and went in
Speaker 2: there and worked all through the night. And you know,
Speaker 2: of course we had the This was four days out
Speaker 2: from Christmas in Melbourne, right in the center of the
Speaker 2: CB day. The political pressure on it was an ormous,
Speaker 2: you know, the pressure from the top of the organization
Speaker 2: as well. And bear in mind that the individual had
Speaker 2: been arrested very bravely by an off GDY police member
Speaker 2: who jumped into the car after this individual had mowed
Speaker 2: through the pedestrian crossing. So an off GDY member who's
Speaker 2: just on his way home, I think from memory, I know,
Speaker 2: you think he was going to meet up with his
Speaker 2: daughter to do some Christmas shopping and he jumped in
Speaker 2: that car, not knowing if there was a secondary device
Speaker 2: or what was going on. And of course at that
Speaker 2: time we knew that that premise wasn't out of the question.
Speaker 2: So I really brave act by that actually got you know,
Speaker 2: arrested this guy, stopped him from doing, you know, causing
Speaker 2: any further harm.
Speaker 1: He was literally just driving through crowds of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he driven around the CBD for quite a while,
Speaker 2: so we'd actually been able to map him driving around
Speaker 2: the CBD, and I think you've just try and find
Speaker 2: the right location and the right the right time, and
Speaker 2: you know, sadly he down Flinda Street. There's a there's
Speaker 2: a major pedestrian crossing is actually I think it's three
Speaker 2: crossings have merged together at Elizabeth Street and Flindas Street
Speaker 2: just outside of Flinders Street station, right on a peak
Speaker 2: hour as well, So it was it was a busy
Speaker 2: crossing and of course at that time of year, a
Speaker 2: lot of you know, people in the CBD shopping, a
Speaker 2: lot of tourists there as well, and so it was
Speaker 2: it was chaos and it was one of those things
Speaker 2: where you know, you have enormous pride that the organization
Speaker 2: turns chaos into order fairly quickly. And then we were
Speaker 2: left with the organizer, you know, with the investigation of that,
Speaker 2: and you know, there was a big question around, you know,
Speaker 2: was a terrorism was it not terrorism? Ultimately it was
Speaker 2: deemed not to be terrorist attack. The individual you know,
Speaker 2: did have significant mental health issues, but you know, notwithstanding that,
Speaker 2: you know, he was convicted ultimately, and it could have
Speaker 2: been an awful lot worse. But you know, one one
Speaker 2: really inspirational Australian lost his life in that as a
Speaker 2: fellow in his eighties. I think from from memory and
Speaker 2: you know, you think, you know you've lived lived a
Speaker 2: life that long and then you know, to be taken
Speaker 2: from your loved ones in such a way four days
Speaker 2: out from Christmas. But you know, the really fortunate part
Speaker 2: of it was that there wasn't more. But you know,
Speaker 2: having said that, we tend to any sort of remember
Speaker 2: things in terms of fatalities, but there are still people
Speaker 2: that will be living with life changing injuries from that incident.
Speaker 1: As well well. I think with the numbers of people,
Speaker 1: and there would have been significant injuries, but it was
Speaker 1: we're very much in this environment to this day, but
Speaker 1: there was a height and alertness about those type of things,
Speaker 1: type of things happening, and the natural inclination would have
Speaker 1: been is a terrorists related. But it's a problem I
Speaker 1: think policing of facing in this day and age those
Speaker 1: laan actors, and they are hard to predict because you've
Speaker 1: virtually got to predict it before these type of crimes happen, and.
Speaker 2: As we know it, they escalate very quickly as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they are so difficult to mitigate and to prevent.
Speaker 1: So having a crime like that happened, how did the
Speaker 1: impact on you personally? Like lead up to Christmas, your
Speaker 1: son's graduation, exciting times and then you look at the
Speaker 1: world and get nine named people by the action of
Speaker 1: a person with mental health? Did it? Did it? Do
Speaker 1: you carry that?
Speaker 2: I think you you know, My view is I think
Speaker 2: you carry all of these. I think every investigation that
Speaker 2: you're part of leaves leaves some impression on you. The
Speaker 2: other side of it is, you know that you just
Speaker 2: put your head down. I mean, and as the as
Speaker 2: a senior investigating officer and something like that, you're pretty
Speaker 2: busy dealing you know, you're dealing with a political level,
Speaker 2: You're dealing with the senior level of the organization. You know,
Speaker 2: we're dealing across agencies, with with the FEDS, with counter
Speaker 2: terrorism agencies across Australia and even internationally as well, where
Speaker 2: you know, suddenly you you really are in the spotlight
Speaker 2: that way. So yeah, I think while it's well, it's happening,
Speaker 2: you kind of just put your head down, and you
Speaker 2: know a lot of it is you're you're supporting your
Speaker 2: people that was the task force, and you know, all
Speaker 2: the all the challenges that you have with the task
Speaker 2: force or a strike force. We talked about before, you know,
Speaker 2: getting people, keeping people, getting resources. That all exists too.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you kind of just you know, you're in
Speaker 2: the maelstrom. I think of just just keeping the whole
Speaker 2: thing working and then but you do have but you
Speaker 2: do have your moments where you kind of sit down
Speaker 2: and go, you know, what is going on in the world.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, this is the life of the homicide detective.
Speaker 1: And it's funny. Your reference are not funny, but your
Speaker 1: reference it to your son's graduation. I know, with the
Speaker 1: Linked Cafe siege, I ran ran the crime scene that
Speaker 1: came at such an inconvenient time because my son had
Speaker 1: been overseas. I hadn't seen him for a long time
Speaker 1: and he was staying at my place. And it's basically
Speaker 1: that happened I didn't see in the lead up to Christmas.
Speaker 1: And you sort of carry those things, but I think
Speaker 1: you described it well. You just sort of put your
Speaker 1: head down. This is what you do, and you do
Speaker 1: your work and you haven't really got time to reflect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's been that's been the case
Speaker 2: with most investigations, certainly you know, reactive ones like that.
Speaker 2: And you know we'd had the Burk Street incident here
Speaker 2: in Melbourne as well, which you know that was a
Speaker 2: massive investigation went on for went on for a long
Speaker 2: period of time. And so even after that that was
Speaker 2: the shooting, No, that was another that was another vehicle
Speaker 2: you know, a vehicle borne incident where a car was
Speaker 2: driven down to pedestrian that's right pedestrian area of Burk
Speaker 2: Street in Melbourne. So you know, we unfortunately we'd had
Speaker 2: a lot of history in that kind of thing as well,
Speaker 2: but you know, from from that comes experience as well,
Speaker 2: and you know how to deal with these things too.
Speaker 1: So and we talk about it from an investigator's point
Speaker 1: of view, from the detectives point of view, but the
Speaker 1: shout out to the police of the first on the
Speaker 1: scene of these type of things, a young uniform police
Speaker 1: are dealing with the chaos when it's just happened, the
Speaker 1: first responders to to that the ambo is anyone that
Speaker 1: gets involved in it. It's yeah, we look at it
Speaker 1: from the investigator point of view and invariably in a
Speaker 1: position like you are or I was, you're a little
Speaker 1: bit wiser, you're a little bit more experienced, and you've
Speaker 1: got kids that have just joined the cops, like you
Speaker 1: talked about yourself, naive nine erene year old Over in
Speaker 1: the UK, they're dealing with this type of thing as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And another thing that I tell you
Speaker 2: I always take from these incidents as well as is,
Speaker 2: you know, even though you're looking at the worst in society,
Speaker 2: you very often see the best in society as well
Speaker 2: as these things, people who actually you know, jump into
Speaker 2: actually try and prevent something or to assist after the
Speaker 2: fact as well. So I think that's always been really
Speaker 2: important for me to actually try and you know, look
Speaker 2: look at when you when you're seeing the absolute worst
Speaker 2: in society, Well, you know, how did how did how
Speaker 2: did the rest of society, normal society? How did that?
Speaker 2: How did they react in that situation? And invariably it's
Speaker 2: it's very well, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's nourishing to look at things in the
Speaker 1: positive like that. And I always drew a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of strength from victims the way the families
Speaker 1: have murdered victims in homicides, the strength and the resilience
Speaker 1: that they showed to get through, and quite often I'd
Speaker 1: look at them and think, well, I shouldn't wins just
Speaker 1: because I've had the work over the weekend with what
Speaker 1: you're going through, and that puts it in perspective.
Speaker 2: Too, doesn't I've never had I can't ever recall a
Speaker 2: victim of a homicide ever feeling like they've been looked
Speaker 2: after by the system or the courts. In all my time,
Speaker 2: I can't remember when he's walked away thinking, yeah, I
Speaker 2: feel like I've had justice.
Speaker 1: Well, as you know, you don't. They don't feel like
Speaker 1: there is no justice. They're not going to get closure.
Speaker 1: There's no justice. You can't use those words. They've lost
Speaker 1: their loved one and there's a long, long journey. But
Speaker 1: I'm just amazed that they can carry on because sometimes
Speaker 1: I've seen the people that I'm thinking, if I was
Speaker 1: in their situation, I don't know if I can carry on.
Speaker 2: No, I agree with you, And you know, I think
Speaker 2: that's been something that's you know, to years, that word
Speaker 2: nourished the years. I think that's something that's nourished me
Speaker 2: over the course as well. To see the strength and
Speaker 2: you know, the humility and the humanity that some of
Speaker 2: those people have had to you know, even when they
Speaker 2: are faced with you know, with a system that doesn't
Speaker 2: really look after them.
Speaker 1: No, what are you doing with yourself now?
Speaker 2: Well, I unfortunately through the work that I did with
Speaker 2: Underbelly back in the day, and you know, and I've
Speaker 2: kept a lot of those contacts. So I'm still trying
Speaker 2: to do a little bit of work in film and
Speaker 2: TV now just to build build a bit of consultancy
Speaker 2: there and try and bring some true crime stories or
Speaker 2: some some you know, as I say, try to try
Speaker 2: to bring some of those true crime stories where truth
Speaker 2: is stranger than fiction to to you know, to the table.
Speaker 2: So that's that's pretty much. It just a couple of
Speaker 2: other things and you're just enjoying a bit of time
Speaker 2: away from it and walking the dog and going to
Speaker 2: the gym.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those little things that you took for granted. You
Speaker 1: made reference in part one to the TV series The
Speaker 1: Wire when they're setting up there the Strikeforce that that's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite cop shows. In The Wire. I
Speaker 1: just loved they caught the grittiness of it and the
Speaker 1: strange things that happened in policing.
Speaker 2: Well, can I just say, because this is and I've
Speaker 2: never and I don't know if you've had any dealings
Speaker 2: with the author of the books. I think he's still around.
Speaker 2: He was in Baltimore, and my understanding was he was
Speaker 2: a sort of crime reporter on the on the you know,
Speaker 2: on the newspaper there, so obviously had a lot of
Speaker 2: contacts with the cops. And I sort of watched cop
Speaker 2: shows and this is one thing I'll take them. And
Speaker 2: I'm trying now, and I try and think about you know,
Speaker 2: you see these scenes and think, well, could that have happened?
Speaker 2: And there's one scene in the Wire, and I'd love
Speaker 2: to know there's one scene in the Wire where one
Speaker 2: of the one of the members dies and so, and
Speaker 2: it introduces this tradition that they have in Baltimore where
Speaker 2: the member the night before the funeral, gets taken to
Speaker 2: a bar. They in full uniform. They lay them on
Speaker 2: a on a pool table and they all stand around
Speaker 2: drinking whiskey and singing songs by the Pogues. You know,
Speaker 2: So maybe the Poges might have been a stretch, but
Speaker 2: I often thought and then, you know, so they have this,
Speaker 2: so they invite they invite the deceased colleague for one
Speaker 2: last drink and it's a brilliant scene, very moving scene too.
Speaker 2: And then at the end of the night they all go,
Speaker 2: you know, the undertake comes back in takes you know,
Speaker 2: takes the deceased pack to the to the chapel of
Speaker 2: rest and they all go on their own way. And
Speaker 2: I've often thought, you know, is there some truth in
Speaker 2: that story? You know, because it's just when you've been
Speaker 2: around coppering long enough, you know, strange things.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not shocked. You're not shocked, you because I.
Speaker 2: Actually think I reckon there's a better truth in that
Speaker 2: some way, and they and as they do, they kind
Speaker 2: of stretch it, but I reckon there's a bit of
Speaker 2: truth in that. But it's such a brilliant scene too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it was a great, great series. I enjoyed
Speaker 1: a great deal. Finish off the questions I always ask
Speaker 1: people that have had long and impressive careers like yourself
Speaker 1: in the police, would you recommend policing to people as
Speaker 1: a career, And if so, what would you say the
Speaker 1: attractions to a career in policing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I would, you know, I think it's harder
Speaker 2: and coppers we always reckon it was harder for us
Speaker 2: back in the day. But I often thought, and I
Speaker 2: actually had the privilege just towards the end of my
Speaker 2: career to go out and work in regional operations in
Speaker 2: a busy inner city area around Paran, and some killed here.
Speaker 2: And I learned that the policing is most definitely harder
Speaker 2: now than it was in my day because the accountability.
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's got a camera in the pocket. You know,
Speaker 2: there is nothing that the cops can't even do that
Speaker 2: that isn't film somewhere, and everything is in my view,
Speaker 2: is harder and more dangerous. I think too, we're dealing
Speaker 2: with I don't know any other occupation where people go
Speaker 2: to work regularly thinking someone's going to try and kill
Speaker 2: me today. There's a high possibility someone's going to try
Speaker 2: and kill me today. I mean, I can't think of
Speaker 2: another occupation. Yeah, there's other occupations where it's dangerous, but
Speaker 2: where people just for the nature of what they do,
Speaker 2: you represent, we'll try and we'll try and kill them,
Speaker 2: you know, or hurt them so and that that wasn't
Speaker 2: the case in when I was starting off, and probably
Speaker 2: the same with you, and I think that's changed a
Speaker 2: lot recently, so I do have the utmost respect. Having
Speaker 2: said that that we do train our people and and
Speaker 2: ecquit them a lot better than we ever have too.
Speaker 2: So I mean, all those risks are very real, but
Speaker 2: they are very well trying and very well equipped. So
Speaker 2: I often think, and I know I spoke to you
Speaker 2: about this. You know, if my son, you know, he's
Speaker 2: still UNI, but if he came to me, and I
Speaker 2: don't think he's likely he will. Eve he came to
Speaker 2: me and said he wanted to join the cops, I'd go, well, yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's good, and I'd tell him what, you know, tell
Speaker 2: him what the risk would, what the downfalls were, but
Speaker 2: I'd also tell him that it's an amazing career where
Speaker 2: he'll meet the best mates he's ever you know, he's
Speaker 2: ever had in life, and he will see, as we say,
Speaker 2: you know, a side of life that you'll never see
Speaker 2: anywhere else, and it will teach you some, you know,
Speaker 2: amazing life skills. Whether or not i'd suggest, and what
Speaker 2: I say to a lot of people is, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe just think about doing it for five years, for
Speaker 2: thirty years, you know, because if you do it for
Speaker 2: five years, it'll give you an amazing set of life
Speaker 2: skills and skills that are really transferable into other industries.
Speaker 2: So I kind of think that's what I would do.
Speaker 2: I certainly I would never talk anyone out of it
Speaker 2: because I just feel incredibly fortunate that, you know, I've
Speaker 2: had a good career. I've enjoyed the vast majority of it,
Speaker 2: and I think it's a really really worthwhile occupation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's certainly rewards that come from it. There's the pressure,
Speaker 1: and you look like you've come out relatively sane, which
Speaker 1: is always good. There's no twitches or anything I could
Speaker 1: pick up at this stage.
Speaker 2: But no, well I think so. And you know, that
Speaker 2: was what was important to me as well, because I
Speaker 2: can't in knew and this is what you know, we
Speaker 2: discussed the other day when you know, you know, and
Speaker 2: it's a bit like the footy player wake up and
Speaker 2: just think, you know, just there's too many aches and pains.
Speaker 2: I want to do it anymore. And that was where
Speaker 2: it came to with me, And I was really adamant
Speaker 2: that I wanted to leave on good terms. And you know,
Speaker 2: because we've all seen, you know, too many of our
Speaker 2: colleagues who leave on bad terms and hate the job
Speaker 2: and hate everybody in it. And I never wanted to
Speaker 2: get to that stage because you know, I don't feel that.
Speaker 2: I feel incredibly privileged and so yeah, you know, I've
Speaker 2: got no ill feeling towards towards any of it at all.
Speaker 1: Well that's good, yea that and we all want to
Speaker 1: leave on good terms. I left with a criminal charge,
Speaker 1: which I suppose is not the best of terms, but
Speaker 1: I look back and I still love that every day
Speaker 1: in the cops, and yeah, it's a robust nature of
Speaker 1: policing and I still look back and think, yeah, it
Speaker 1: was great.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in my I mean, and
Speaker 2: I never, you know, thankfully never had to face anything
Speaker 2: like that. But there's a lot of part of my
Speaker 2: career as well where you do go you know, like
Speaker 2: as you know, you get complaints or whatever, and you know,
Speaker 2: and they're really kicking in the guts and the job
Speaker 2: can be really difficult at times and really challenging, but
Speaker 2: I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a good way to finish, Andrew, and
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for your service to
Speaker 1: the community both in the UK and Victoria and the
Speaker 1: role model that you were because I think it's important
Speaker 1: good good people people learned. I learned from good people.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think I passed some of those skills on.
Speaker 1: I can see in the way that you conduct yourself
Speaker 1: you would have been passing those skills on that you
Speaker 1: picked up. And it's a shame we didn't work together.
Speaker 1: I like the way that you go about your business,
Speaker 1: and I think we could have got some backuts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely right, Well we should still do it. Maybe
Speaker 2: get a TV show together. You know what was it
Speaker 2: called the one in the UK they I'll detect is
Speaker 2: getting all right?
Speaker 1: Okay, we can't come out come out of the retirement.
Speaker 1: Well look, thanks very much, all the best for the
Speaker 1: future and yeah, stay in touch. Thanks cheers.
Speaker 2: H