1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: In Part two of I Catch Killers, I continue my 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: chat with Andrew Stamper, who is a former commander of 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Victorian Homicide Squad and the Missing Person Squad. Andrew takes 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: us deep inside the investigation of the brutal rape murder 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: Eurodissy Dixon, who was killed by a stranger while she 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: was walking home. That was a really sad case. After 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: facing some of the worst of humanity, we also discussed 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: the pressures of leading major investigations and how he survived 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: so long at the sharp end of policing. Have at 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: listened to what Andrew has to say? Andrew Stamp, Welcome 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: back to part two of I Catch Killers. 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: Thank you. 26 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: That's always good to speak to a cop. We seem 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: to speak a certain language. This is not in my 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: show notes here, but I'm going to say this Michael Francisi, 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: that he's a mafia capo. You look exactly like him. 30 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: Is that right? Check where from. 31 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: New York mafia? He's a big He was a capo 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: in the Columbia Mafia in New York. He was one 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: of the most powerful mafia figures going around in his time. 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: I've had him on the podcast and I also did 35 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: a tour around the country. As strange as that sounds, 36 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: with mafia cape, but have a look when you reform, reform, reform, 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: I think Edie's peak he was earning eight million dollars 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: a week. He was in had some scam going with 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: petrol xiz and all that. But yeah, it was a 40 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: real deal. 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: But obviously a fairly good look and. 42 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: A great a great style of a black Yeah. But 43 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: I just sitting there just look. Yeah, anyway, we'll get back, 44 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: get back on topic. When we're talking the other day, 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: you were talking about the pressures of leadership leading high 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: profile investigations, but you also mentioned the word and it 47 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: made me think too about the loneliness of leading investigations 48 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: because you've got people sitting above you and you're answering 49 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: to them, You've got your team underneath you that you're 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: trying to support them. It can be a fairly lonely position, 51 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: can't it. 52 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, Yeah, the amount of times I said in 53 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: my office, and you do feel like you know the 54 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: meat in the sandwich a little bit, because, yeah, the 55 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: expectations of the higher level. You put all your efforts 56 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 2: into looking after your team as well and making sure 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: that you know that or trying to do your best 58 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: to make sure that you know that their welfare is 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 2: guided for. And something that often used to occur to 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: me is that no one ever used to come and 61 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: tap me on the shoulder, and you know, certainly from 62 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: the higher level. And I'm not critical in it because 63 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: I think you. 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Know that's just that's the nature of the position. 65 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: You get lost as a as a senior investigating officer, 66 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: and it's something that I've spoken about, you know, certainly 67 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: the leadership forums around the country as well, that it 68 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: can be a lonely place. And that's why, you know, 69 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: I was always and still am a big advocate for 70 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: self care and looking after yourself because I don't think 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: you can look after others unless you look properly, unless 72 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: you look after yourself. So that's that's been something that 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: I've I've been a strong advocate for. 74 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: How did you manage that? How did you manage a 75 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: pressure looking after yourself? 76 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: I did a lot of a lot of fitness work, 77 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: Like I run, not as far or as as well 78 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: as I used to. 79 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: Still you've still got one good brother. 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: Still I was still I was still out running this morning, 81 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: even with a bit of sunshine in Melbourne. So running, 82 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: you know, has been a big thing for me. I 83 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: love the rhythm of running, and you believe it or not, 84 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: I listen to hip hop music so big shout out 85 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: here to the hilltop who you know. For some reason, 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: I just kind of just like the rhythm of it. 87 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: It just kind of yeah, just put some of that 88 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: on and go for a run, and it just helped 89 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: me to clear clear my head. And you know, another 90 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: fitness work. There's a lot of research now that shares 91 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: that actually proves that resistance training, so lifting weights is 92 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: a great thing for your mental health too, and I'd 93 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: be a strong advocate for that, But I I use 94 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: a word of caution as well now, and that you 95 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: know from my own personal experience. I think fitness, like 96 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: any other medication, should come with a bit of a 97 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: warning that you can do too much of it. And 98 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: I don't think at times that I probably started to 99 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: wear myself out physically through exercise, through trying to actually 100 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: come my brain a little bit. So that's a word 101 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: of caution there. I do think there's no no medication 102 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: for mental health better than getting out in the fresh 103 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: air or going to the gym and having a good workout. 104 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: But yeah, like anything else, you can become a bit 105 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: addicted to it, and it can become if you let it, 106 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: it can turn into a bit of a negative as well. 107 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: So when you say running, I used to do a 108 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: lot of running as well, and it's like a moving 109 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: form of meditation. You could just get in and lose 110 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: yourself in that, and that's the way I Yeah, twenty 111 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: five years investigating homicides, and that's the way I would 112 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: deal with it like the physical training like people you okay, 113 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: and I would and encourage my team. I thought there 114 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: was nothing better than the team building. If we all 115 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: went down to the gym at lunchtime, if the time 116 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: was there, or if I knew we had a busy day, 117 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: let's all train in the morning, get it out of 118 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: the way, and then we can do what needs to 119 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: be done. 120 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: And it's changed a lot over the years, and that's 121 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: very much, you know, I think, you know, cops have 122 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: all different areas, you know, far more in the fitness now, 123 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: whereas you know, it's not the life that we started 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: off with. Certainly, you know, it was more likely to 125 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: go down the pub at the end of the day 126 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: and go to the gym. But you know, certainly for 127 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: me for the last twenty five years as well, it's 128 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: been more around fitness and just kind of looking trying 129 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: to look after myself that way. 130 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: Well, when you say not to go over the top. 131 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: When I first started in the end, whole up squad, 132 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: and this is year up squad of the eighties, so 133 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: you eighties and early nineties, so you can imagine the 134 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: amount of the drinking that was going on there. I 135 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: was heavily into my fitness, and I got to the 136 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: point where I was just burning myself out. I can't 137 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: drink all night then train all day and try to 138 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: fit work in there. So I sort of stepped away 139 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: from the drinking and thinking I can't can't keep this 140 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: pace up, but the fitness side of things. But look, 141 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: I think it's an important message and hopefully people that 142 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: are listening to this might be encouraged to join the 143 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 1: police or even police officers listening to it. Like it's 144 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: helped me with a lot of pressure going through it. 145 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you that's the first thing you 146 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: say about the benefits of physical training to get you 147 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 1: through the get you through the pressure. And it helps 148 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: on those jobs when you're up for twenty four hours 149 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: and that, and I could see that the people that 150 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: could handle the pace of that when you know, some 151 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: of those jobs come and you just got to operate 152 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: without sleep and just keep pushing forward. 153 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I'd still go to the gym 154 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: at the end of that as well. And people think 155 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: you're crazy, you know, you've been up all night, but 156 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: you know, just go to the gym just to wind 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: down a little bit and I'm certain towards the end, 158 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: I preferred to work out at the end of the 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: day rather than the beginning of the day. It's just 160 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: kind of the way it worked with me, just to help, 161 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: just to clear my brain a little bit before I 162 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: got home. 163 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: No, I think it's a good thing. And if my 164 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: team were looking for me, they'd say I was in 165 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: the happy place, and that happy place was a gymnasium 166 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: or the local police boys club in case I want 167 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: to want to talk about. It's a horrible case, and 168 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: I think it touched on a lot of people because 169 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: of the nature of the crime and just the randomness 170 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: of the crime. Was the murder of a comedian. You're 171 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: a DC am I pronouncing that correct? Yeah? 172 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 2: I think eurrot Is or Eurydicy Youdic Dixon. 173 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: She was only twenty two years old and was raped 174 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: and murdered walking through the streets of Melbourne. You're involved 175 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: in that matter, Can you tell us about that case? 176 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: I was in charge of homicide of that particular time 177 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 2: when that happened, and you know, as you know, you 178 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 2: as leading the squad like that, you've got a lot 179 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: of people that are actually doing the hands on stuff. 180 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: So yeah, I've got to actually make a big shout 181 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: out to the people that actually, you know, manage that 182 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: investigation from the start, because I have a strong feeling 183 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: about that particular investigation, and we caught that individual within 184 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: twenty four hours, and my view is that he would 185 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: have gone on and done more if we hadn't. It 186 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: was so random the way it happened, and his trajectory 187 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: of offending was so significant. I honestly believe that if 188 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: he hadn't been called, he would he would have gone 189 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: and done more. So I've got enormous pride and respect 190 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 2: for the people that actually ran the investigation. I as 191 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 2: being in charge of the squad, was the public face 192 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: of that at the time, which was which was particularly 193 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: difficult because I think when you get cases like that, 194 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: you really run the full, the full spectrum of public emotions. 195 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: And I came to learn a lot around you know, 196 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: how a community grees when there's something like that, and 197 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: there's phases of community grief. I think the first one 198 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: is when something like that has happened is just is 199 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: just absolute shock, and then it kind of goes to sympathy, 200 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 2: and then it kind of goes to anger and then 201 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: into why you know, why did this happen. There's there's 202 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: really specific phases of it, and I really felt it 203 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: through that time, you know, and I copped I copied 204 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: a bitter criticism about some comments that were that were made, 205 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: and I think unfairly there were some elements of the 206 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: media that were happy to kind of jump on and 207 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: drive an agenda and really didn't recognize the amazing work 208 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: that had been done by the cops to actually find 209 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: this individual and holding to account ultimately and stopping from 210 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 2: doing it to anyone else. 211 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: I'll talk about that criticism that you got because I'm 212 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: aware of it, but the actual crime, it was literally 213 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: a person and this is these are quite often the 214 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: sad ones, someone in the wrong place at the wrong 215 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: time with a presator. 216 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: And I hate to use the analogy because it just 217 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: seemed so so insignificant in terms of what happened. But 218 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: it was a sliding doors moment. You know. He just 219 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: happened to be standing on you know, pretty much on 220 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: the corner of Flint Destreet and Swanston Straight outside Young 221 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: and Jackson's hotel and Erotics. Was was walking down Swanston 222 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: Straight and he just happened to see it and you know, 223 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: she was from what I understand she was, you know, 224 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: she was in a really happy mood and he just caught, 225 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: you know, caught, caught a look at her and for 226 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: whatever reason, decided to start following her. He followed at 227 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: the length of Swanston straight up towards Carlton to you know, 228 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: where Melbourne University is and which is where he attacked her. 229 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: But he stalked her for a significant period of time 230 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 2: and it was all based upon that initial contact and 231 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 2: and it's something that's really stuck with me and in 232 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: that and other cases, how unfair it can be that, 233 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: you know, because if if he'd looked left instead of right, 234 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: well you know, it wouldn't it wouldn't have happened. And 235 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: it's it's just so it's just so tragic. It's just 236 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: so tragic. But yeah, it was certainly, you know, trying 237 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: to find the right way to communicate that to the 238 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: community because there had already been other cases here in 239 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: Melbourne and certainly I'm sure elsewhere in Australia as well, 240 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 2: where where the public messaging around that had been criticized, 241 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: around victim blaming, and it's it's really difficult to know 242 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 2: what to say, and certainly, you know, the media conference 243 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: that I did around that is as a whole story 244 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: in itself, it's probably the biggest one I did in 245 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: my career. And bear in mind we'd arrested him at 246 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 2: that stage, we knew that there would be someone somebody 247 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: would ask the question around the safety of you know, 248 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: women and walking the streets, and how do you how 249 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 2: do you answer that? I mean, I would I would 250 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: love to live in utopia where we don't have to 251 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: worry about walking the streets. But as the father of 252 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 2: a daughter, I remember that night. We we were sitting 253 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: around having dinner that night and my son after i'd 254 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: you know, there had been criticism of the way that 255 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: you know, and there was only some sections of the 256 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: media that basically accused me and others have kind of 257 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: blaming the victims. My son actually said, you know, well 258 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: why do they do that? And my daughter was sitting 259 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: sitting at the table as well, and I used it 260 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: as one of those you know, whether you call it 261 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: a teachable moment, you know, in these days, and it 262 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 2: was it was actually a moment for him to actually say, well, 263 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: you know, my daughter at that age was training, she 264 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: was going to the gym. You know, she was going 265 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: there at certain times because she didn't want to be 266 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: at the gym at certain times, because you know, there 267 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: was more blocks there. And I knew that she parked 268 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: her car in a certain place at the gym where 269 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: there was more light, and you know, because she went 270 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: there a bit later. And I said to Will, you'll 271 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: never have to worry about that, you know, And this 272 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: is reality. And it breaks my heart that we you know, 273 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: there are sections of us, you know, society and someone 274 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: who's very dear to me that they have to have 275 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: these extra considerations in life and extra concerns in life. 276 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: But it's sadly, it's the reality of the society that 277 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: we live in. And you know, people say, well, how 278 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: can we fix that? Well, you know, we could go 279 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 2: to a Singapore style of society, where you know, there 280 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: are far more consequences for bad actions, far more control 281 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: I suppose over the individuals. Would I put my hand 282 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: up for that one percent one percent, But the majority 283 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: of people wouldn't, wouldn't want that, you know, so we're 284 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: not going to have that. 285 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: And the criticism, my understanding, flowed on it from warning 286 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: that women should be safe walking home at night, or 287 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: just be cautious or something as innocuous as that. That 288 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: sort of. 289 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: I recall this because I have about and again this 290 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: is another story for over a beer one day, but 291 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: I had about literally about one minute to prepare for 292 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: that for that media conference. I didn't want to do it, 293 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: and you know, but it actually came from above that 294 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: somebody they wanted us to do it. We actually we 295 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: charged an individual, and we didn't normally do press conferences 296 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: after we charge someone. But because there was so much 297 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: a feeling in the community about it, the thought from 298 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: the very senior level of our organization was that there 299 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: needed to be some reassurance messaging put out there. So yeah, 300 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: I went to our media unit. I had about one 301 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: minute to prepare. They gave me a whole heap of 302 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: media lines and I scanned through them and I looked 303 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: at ninety nine percent of them. I said, I can't 304 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: say that because we charged someone. And then they'd given 305 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: me a version of if you do get that question, 306 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: well what it should be, and I kind of thought, yeah, 307 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: and it was really My response was something along the 308 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: lines of we all have to be aware of our 309 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: environment and you know, in our personal safety and that 310 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: was about it, and there have been some other comments. 311 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 2: So I'd done a media interview with the divisional commander 312 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 2: for that area earlier in the day, and you know, 313 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: he sort of copped a bit of a bit of 314 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: flag for that one too. But I think, you know, 315 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: in terms of the effort that we were putting into 316 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: behind the scenes to actually catch this catch this individual, 317 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: or that we had done it. You know, at that time, 318 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: we'd actually done it. We'd taken him off the streets 319 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: and charged him, and it had been an incredible piece 320 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: of work to do that. It was unfair. But you know, 321 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: again I've put a lot of thought into it over 322 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: the years and thinking about, you know, how a community 323 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: grieves when something like that happens. And it's right that 324 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: we should, because we should be outraged if a young 325 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: woman can't walk home safely and has you know, and 326 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: it's subjected to an evil act like that, we should 327 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: be outraged. And so I actually, you know, put a 328 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: lot of thought into actually just you know, how a 329 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: community does grief something like that. And again, I think 330 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 2: it's just one of those times where you've got to 331 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 2: ride the waves as a sort of senior police member 332 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: and think, well, this is just kind of part of 333 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: that grieving process. 334 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: Grief. 335 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 2: We all want answers. We all want to know, how 336 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: do we stop this from happening again. That's that's the 337 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: most important part of it. How do we stop it 338 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: from happening again? And you know, I wish we could. 339 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: I think you your instinct on that case too, like 340 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: a crime like that happens, that we got to catch him, 341 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: or this might occur again. 342 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 2: Was right? 343 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: That's the way I would look at the crime, the 344 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: crime of that nature. Do you know, I think he 345 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: was nine, nine years old, you know, if he had 346 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: any any history leading up to it, was there. 347 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: Anything really inocuous from memory? There was basically nothing else. 348 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 2: I said, you know, that was his offending. The trajectory 349 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: of you know, his offending just went from basically zero 350 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 2: to one. That was the one thing I think with 351 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: him that made me think if we didn't get him quickly, 352 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: that he would see this and he would feed off 353 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 2: the notoriety or what he would see as the notoriety 354 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 2: and and look to do it again. And as we 355 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: all know, over time, there's been serial killers who have 356 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: gone on and done that. Unfortunately, they don't happen as much. 357 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: And I'm touching Wood really seriously here again now. And 358 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 2: I think a lot of that is to do with, 359 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of the technology and a lot 360 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: of the accountability in society. I think I think it's 361 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 2: a lot harder for someone like that, but you've got 362 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: to get on to him quick. 363 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And I think investigative practices have approved and 364 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: involved evolved, and that's why, Yeah, there's less of the 365 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: serial predators. And we're also have a bit more of 366 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: an understanding like serial killing identified as serial killers that 367 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: we're looking for that only came out around in the 368 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: seventies when we started talking and talking and talking about that. 369 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: And I think the way that we communicate between the 370 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: different law enforcement agencies and understanding the nature nature of 371 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: the crime we're reducing it. A crime like that adds 372 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: another layer of pressure, doesn't it. When the team that's 373 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: investigating it, And as you said, you're sitting as the 374 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: boss of homicide at the time and there's a team 375 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: working under I'm at pains to explain anytime we're talking 376 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: about I did this or that. It's always a team environment. 377 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: You are working working in the team, but the team 378 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: heading up that investigation would have felt the pressure. 379 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think your job as the boss there 380 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: is to is to shield them as much as you 381 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: possibly can. And I always felt that that was my 382 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 2: most significant role in those times when you did get 383 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: an investigation like that, was to actually be the buffer 384 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: and let them do their work, which is we both 385 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: know they do really well, I mean ultimately. And there 386 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: was a decision that we had to make on that one, 387 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: and we had to make it pretty quickly, and because 388 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: we did, we got a photograph and we weren't one 389 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: hundred percent sure at the time that it was the 390 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: person we were looking for, but certainly it was someone 391 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: who who we could say it was a significant person 392 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: of interest. And I remember looking at the time, it 393 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: was like quarter to sixth and I thought, we we've 394 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: got to get. 395 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: This on the evening meet news. 396 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: And you know, as you know, putting a photograph on, 397 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, potentially the national news when you're not one 398 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 2: hundred percent sure comes with it comes with risk. So 399 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: we had to be really careful around our wording as well, 400 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: you know that this was a person of interest, and 401 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: and again this was it was probably one of those 402 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: where having good contacts in the media came to the 403 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: four as well that we could make some quick phone 404 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: calls and you know, tell them, look, this is you know, 405 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: we've got this is hot news. You basically hold the 406 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 2: front page and we got it on We got it 407 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: on the news. It was brought to his attention. From 408 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: my recollection is that people known to him were ringing 409 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: him saying, all your photos on the news. And he 410 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: turned himself into to a local police station and and 411 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: our people shot out there straight away and spoke to 412 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: him and yeah, and he never saw the light of 413 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: day again, thankfully. So you know, those decisions that you 414 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: have to make on the fly sometimes which come with 415 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: an element of risk, and you kind of have to, 416 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: you know, make that assessment, well is it worth it? 417 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: And you know, in that one it definitely was. But 418 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: the work that had gone into getting that photograph of 419 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 2: him during the day, involving viewing of multiple CCCTV, you 420 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: know that that to me is the stuff that I 421 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: must respect by of the people that actually sorted through 422 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: all that and actually got that photograph and. 423 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: The position I find it makes you you're proud as 424 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: a cop being involved in that type of stuff where 425 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: you see a team of crimes happen like that and 426 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: you watch it work like a well oiled machine, and 427 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: everyone's bringing their skill set to the investigation, and you 428 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: just see how much progress can be made in twenty 429 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: four hours. They just can absolutely get through it when 430 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: you've got dedicated, highly skilled people working on the case, 431 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: and they're the type of things that break the cases 432 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: wide open, aren't they? 433 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: Definitely? And that dedication, I mean it's, you know again, 434 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: I used to think it's a bit like conducting an orchestra. 435 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes you've just you just And I always saw my 436 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 2: role predominantly as being, as I say, looking after them 437 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: and giving them the tools. I often used to say, 438 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: I work for you, not you work for me. You know, 439 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: That's the way I want you to look at it. 440 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: I'm here to you know, I'm here to work for you, 441 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: to give you the tools and the and the freedom 442 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,239 Speaker 2: to do the job that I know you can do. 443 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: And and time and time again, they just, you know, 444 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: they just amaze you the work that they do. 445 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: Step up and I think, yeah, having a boss, like 446 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: by the time you've got there, you've got that experience, 447 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: you know what investigators, you know how to support them 448 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: you'd probably even get them a whiteboard or something like that. 449 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: Would you whiteboards have gone out of fashion a life, 450 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: I think, are electronic whiteboards now unfortunately? 451 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, but what about the intros? We used to fight 452 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: over the intros. It would be punch homicide that we 453 00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: want those. 454 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: What about a teleidex? You remember the old the things 455 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: that we used to find about. But yeah, we're a 456 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: little bit more technically advanced now, not to say that 457 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: they could do with a lot more. And there's you know, 458 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of technical innovations that 459 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 2: are coming in now, which was stuff that we were 460 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: starting to look at when I left it. Yeah, you know, 461 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: it's just amazing with AI now and machine learning. 462 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: And well yeah AI. That's actually if I was speaking 463 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: to Graham simpondor for about that that very thing, because 464 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: it's an area that he's into now after he's got 465 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: out of the police and how that can change investigations 466 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: and the use of that. But that's a story for 467 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: another time. Another case I want to talk about is 468 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen Flinders Street the vehicle attack. Nine people injured. 469 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: I think one of those people died. Tell us about 470 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: that because that's that's it's a type of crime that 471 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: scares me, where one person acts out alone. You know, 472 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: they used to be called lone wolves, and now I 473 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: think that type of crime is a loan actor. Can 474 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: you describe that that situation to us and what your 475 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: involvement in that matter was. 476 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: Well, I was, I was. I think it was on 477 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: call that night and I remember it because it was 478 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: my youngest son. It was his graduation night from from 479 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: primary school and happened. I was at the school primary 480 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: fate and you know, as you know, you start getting 481 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: phone calls, your phone's going off, and you're trying to 482 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: concentrate on what you're there for. 483 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: You look like a dickhead in the school assembly when 484 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: you're walking out to take facals. 485 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 2: And you know, saw these significant nights in your life 486 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: and things like that happen and you kind of you know, 487 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 2: you get a little bit of a report and then 488 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: you think, we'll see how it develops, and and then 489 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: you start to realize this is big. Well, I was 490 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 2: lucky that night because Tim Day, who at that stagement, 491 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: charged a homicide and I think I was looking after 492 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: missing persons. Tim was still around and I told him 493 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 2: where I was, and so he said, well, look well, 494 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 2: you know, I'll look after it till till midnight or whatever, 495 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: till whatever time you can get there, and went in 496 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: there and worked all through the night. And you know, 497 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: of course we had the This was four days out 498 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: from Christmas in Melbourne, right in the center of the 499 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: CB day. The political pressure on it was an ormous, 500 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, the pressure from the top of the organization 501 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 2: as well. And bear in mind that the individual had 502 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: been arrested very bravely by an off GDY police member 503 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: who jumped into the car after this individual had mowed 504 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: through the pedestrian crossing. So an off GDY member who's 505 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: just on his way home, I think from memory, I know, 506 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 2: you think he was going to meet up with his 507 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: daughter to do some Christmas shopping and he jumped in 508 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 2: that car, not knowing if there was a secondary device 509 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: or what was going on. And of course at that 510 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: time we knew that that premise wasn't out of the question. 511 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: So I really brave act by that actually got you know, 512 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: arrested this guy, stopped him from doing, you know, causing 513 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: any further harm. 514 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: He was literally just driving through crowds of people. 515 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, he driven around the CBD for quite a while, 516 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: so we'd actually been able to map him driving around 517 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: the CBD, and I think you've just try and find 518 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: the right location and the right the right time, and 519 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: you know, sadly he down Flinda Street. There's a there's 520 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 2: a major pedestrian crossing is actually I think it's three 521 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: crossings have merged together at Elizabeth Street and Flindas Street 522 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: just outside of Flinders Street station, right on a peak 523 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: hour as well, So it was it was a busy 524 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: crossing and of course at that time of year, a 525 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: lot of you know, people in the CBD shopping, a 526 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: lot of tourists there as well, and so it was 527 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: it was chaos and it was one of those things 528 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: where you know, you have enormous pride that the organization 529 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: turns chaos into order fairly quickly. And then we were 530 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: left with the organizer, you know, with the investigation of that, 531 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: and you know, there was a big question around, you know, 532 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: was a terrorism was it not terrorism? Ultimately it was 533 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: deemed not to be terrorist attack. The individual you know, 534 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: did have significant mental health issues, but you know, notwithstanding that, 535 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, he was convicted ultimately, and it could have 536 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: been an awful lot worse. But you know, one one 537 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: really inspirational Australian lost his life in that as a 538 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: fellow in his eighties. I think from from memory and 539 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, you think, you know you've lived lived a 540 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: life that long and then you know, to be taken 541 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: from your loved ones in such a way four days 542 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: out from Christmas. But you know, the really fortunate part 543 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: of it was that there wasn't more. But you know, 544 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: having said that, we tend to any sort of remember 545 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: things in terms of fatalities, but there are still people 546 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 2: that will be living with life changing injuries from that incident. 547 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: As well well. I think with the numbers of people, 548 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: and there would have been significant injuries, but it was 549 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: we're very much in this environment to this day, but 550 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: there was a height and alertness about those type of things, 551 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: type of things happening, and the natural inclination would have 552 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: been is a terrorists related. But it's a problem I 553 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: think policing of facing in this day and age those 554 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: laan actors, and they are hard to predict because you've 555 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: virtually got to predict it before these type of crimes happen, and. 556 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: As we know it, they escalate very quickly as well. Yeah, 557 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: they are so difficult to mitigate and to prevent. 558 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: So having a crime like that happened, how did the 559 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: impact on you personally? Like lead up to Christmas, your 560 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: son's graduation, exciting times and then you look at the 561 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: world and get nine named people by the action of 562 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: a person with mental health? Did it? Did it? Do 563 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: you carry that? 564 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 2: I think you you know, My view is I think 565 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: you carry all of these. I think every investigation that 566 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 2: you're part of leaves leaves some impression on you. The 567 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: other side of it is, you know that you just 568 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: put your head down. I mean, and as the as 569 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: a senior investigating officer and something like that, you're pretty 570 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: busy dealing you know, you're dealing with a political level, 571 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: You're dealing with the senior level of the organization. You know, 572 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: we're dealing across agencies, with with the FEDS, with counter 573 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 2: terrorism agencies across Australia and even internationally as well, where 574 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: you know, suddenly you you really are in the spotlight 575 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 2: that way. So yeah, I think while it's well, it's happening, 576 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: you kind of just put your head down, and you 577 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: know a lot of it is you're you're supporting your 578 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: people that was the task force, and you know, all 579 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: the all the challenges that you have with the task 580 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: force or a strike force. We talked about before, you know, 581 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: getting people, keeping people, getting resources. That all exists too. 582 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, you kind of just you know, you're in 583 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: the maelstrom. I think of just just keeping the whole 584 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 2: thing working and then but you do have but you 585 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: do have your moments where you kind of sit down 586 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: and go, you know, what is going on in the world. 587 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, this is the life of the homicide detective. 588 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: And it's funny. Your reference are not funny, but your 589 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: reference it to your son's graduation. I know, with the 590 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: Linked Cafe siege, I ran ran the crime scene that 591 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: came at such an inconvenient time because my son had 592 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: been overseas. I hadn't seen him for a long time 593 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: and he was staying at my place. And it's basically 594 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: that happened I didn't see in the lead up to Christmas. 595 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: And you sort of carry those things, but I think 596 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: you described it well. You just sort of put your 597 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: head down. This is what you do, and you do 598 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: your work and you haven't really got time to reflect. 599 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's been that's been the case 600 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: with most investigations, certainly you know, reactive ones like that. 601 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: And you know we'd had the Burk Street incident here 602 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: in Melbourne as well, which you know that was a 603 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: massive investigation went on for went on for a long 604 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: period of time. And so even after that that was 605 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 2: the shooting, No, that was another that was another vehicle 606 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: you know, a vehicle borne incident where a car was 607 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: driven down to pedestrian that's right pedestrian area of Burk 608 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: Street in Melbourne. So you know, we unfortunately we'd had 609 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 2: a lot of history in that kind of thing as well, 610 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: but you know, from from that comes experience as well, 611 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: and you know how to deal with these things too. 612 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: So and we talk about it from an investigator's point 613 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: of view, from the detectives point of view, but the 614 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: shout out to the police of the first on the 615 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: scene of these type of things, a young uniform police 616 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: are dealing with the chaos when it's just happened, the 617 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: first responders to to that the ambo is anyone that 618 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: gets involved in it. It's yeah, we look at it 619 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: from the investigator point of view and invariably in a 620 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: position like you are or I was, you're a little 621 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: bit wiser, you're a little bit more experienced, and you've 622 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: got kids that have just joined the cops, like you 623 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: talked about yourself, naive nine erene year old Over in 624 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: the UK, they're dealing with this type of thing as well. 625 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And another thing that I tell you 626 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: I always take from these incidents as well as is, 627 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: you know, even though you're looking at the worst in society, 628 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: you very often see the best in society as well 629 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 2: as these things, people who actually you know, jump into 630 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: actually try and prevent something or to assist after the 631 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 2: fact as well. So I think that's always been really 632 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: important for me to actually try and you know, look 633 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: look at when you when you're seeing the absolute worst 634 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: in society, Well, you know, how did how did how 635 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 2: did the rest of society, normal society? How did that? 636 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: How did they react in that situation? And invariably it's 637 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 2: it's very well, you know. 638 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's nourishing to look at things in the 639 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: positive like that. And I always drew a lot of 640 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: a lot of strength from victims the way the families 641 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: have murdered victims in homicides, the strength and the resilience 642 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: that they showed to get through, and quite often I'd 643 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: look at them and think, well, I shouldn't wins just 644 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: because I've had the work over the weekend with what 645 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: you're going through, and that puts it in perspective. 646 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 2: Too, doesn't I've never had I can't ever recall a 647 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: victim of a homicide ever feeling like they've been looked 648 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: after by the system or the courts. In all my time, 649 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: I can't remember when he's walked away thinking, yeah, I 650 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: feel like I've had justice. 651 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: Well, as you know, you don't. They don't feel like 652 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: there is no justice. They're not going to get closure. 653 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: There's no justice. You can't use those words. They've lost 654 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: their loved one and there's a long, long journey. But 655 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: I'm just amazed that they can carry on because sometimes 656 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: I've seen the people that I'm thinking, if I was 657 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: in their situation, I don't know if I can carry on. 658 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 2: No, I agree with you, And you know, I think 659 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 2: that's been something that's you know, to years, that word 660 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: nourished the years. I think that's something that's nourished me 661 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 2: over the course as well. To see the strength and 662 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: you know, the humility and the humanity that some of 663 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: those people have had to you know, even when they 664 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: are faced with you know, with a system that doesn't 665 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 2: really look after them. 666 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: No, what are you doing with yourself now? 667 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, I unfortunately through the work that I did with 668 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: Underbelly back in the day, and you know, and I've 669 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 2: kept a lot of those contacts. So I'm still trying 670 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: to do a little bit of work in film and 671 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: TV now just to build build a bit of consultancy 672 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: there and try and bring some true crime stories or 673 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 2: some some you know, as I say, try to try 674 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 2: to bring some of those true crime stories where truth 675 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 2: is stranger than fiction to to you know, to the table. 676 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: So that's that's pretty much. It just a couple of 677 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 2: other things and you're just enjoying a bit of time 678 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: away from it and walking the dog and going to 679 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: the gym. 680 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, those little things that you took for granted. You 681 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: made reference in part one to the TV series The 682 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: Wire when they're setting up there the Strikeforce that that's 683 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: one of my favorite cop shows. In The Wire. I 684 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: just loved they caught the grittiness of it and the 685 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: strange things that happened in policing. 686 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 2: Well, can I just say, because this is and I've 687 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: never and I don't know if you've had any dealings 688 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: with the author of the books. I think he's still around. 689 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 2: He was in Baltimore, and my understanding was he was 690 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 2: a sort of crime reporter on the on the you know, 691 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: on the newspaper there, so obviously had a lot of 692 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: contacts with the cops. And I sort of watched cop 693 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 2: shows and this is one thing I'll take them. And 694 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 2: I'm trying now, and I try and think about you know, 695 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 2: you see these scenes and think, well, could that have happened? 696 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: And there's one scene in the Wire, and I'd love 697 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: to know there's one scene in the Wire where one 698 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 2: of the one of the members dies and so, and 699 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: it introduces this tradition that they have in Baltimore where 700 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 2: the member the night before the funeral, gets taken to 701 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 2: a bar. They in full uniform. They lay them on 702 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: a on a pool table and they all stand around 703 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 2: drinking whiskey and singing songs by the Pogues. You know, 704 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: So maybe the Poges might have been a stretch, but 705 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 2: I often thought and then, you know, so they have this, 706 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 2: so they invite they invite the deceased colleague for one 707 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: last drink and it's a brilliant scene, very moving scene too. 708 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 2: And then at the end of the night they all go, 709 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: you know, the undertake comes back in takes you know, 710 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 2: takes the deceased pack to the to the chapel of 711 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 2: rest and they all go on their own way. And 712 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 2: I've often thought, you know, is there some truth in 713 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: that story? You know, because it's just when you've been 714 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 2: around coppering long enough, you know, strange things. 715 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not shocked. You're not shocked, you because I. 716 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 2: Actually think I reckon there's a better truth in that 717 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,959 Speaker 2: some way, and they and as they do, they kind 718 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 2: of stretch it, but I reckon there's a bit of 719 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: truth in that. But it's such a brilliant scene too. 720 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it was a great, great series. I enjoyed 721 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: a great deal. Finish off the questions I always ask 722 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: people that have had long and impressive careers like yourself 723 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: in the police, would you recommend policing to people as 724 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: a career, And if so, what would you say the 725 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: attractions to a career in policing. 726 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I would, you know, I think it's harder 727 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 2: and coppers we always reckon it was harder for us 728 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 2: back in the day. But I often thought, and I 729 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: actually had the privilege just towards the end of my 730 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 2: career to go out and work in regional operations in 731 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 2: a busy inner city area around Paran, and some killed here. 732 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 2: And I learned that the policing is most definitely harder 733 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 2: now than it was in my day because the accountability. 734 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: You know, everyone's got a camera in the pocket. You know, 735 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: there is nothing that the cops can't even do that 736 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 2: that isn't film somewhere, and everything is in my view, 737 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 2: is harder and more dangerous. I think too, we're dealing 738 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 2: with I don't know any other occupation where people go 739 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 2: to work regularly thinking someone's going to try and kill 740 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 2: me today. There's a high possibility someone's going to try 741 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 2: and kill me today. I mean, I can't think of 742 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 2: another occupation. Yeah, there's other occupations where it's dangerous, but 743 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 2: where people just for the nature of what they do, 744 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 2: you represent, we'll try and we'll try and kill them, 745 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 2: you know, or hurt them so and that that wasn't 746 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 2: the case in when I was starting off, and probably 747 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 2: the same with you, and I think that's changed a 748 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: lot recently, so I do have the utmost respect. Having 749 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 2: said that that we do train our people and and 750 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 2: ecquit them a lot better than we ever have too. 751 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: So I mean, all those risks are very real, but 752 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 2: they are very well trying and very well equipped. So 753 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 2: I often think, and I know I spoke to you 754 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 2: about this. You know, if my son, you know, he's 755 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 2: still UNI, but if he came to me, and I 756 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 2: don't think he's likely he will. Eve he came to 757 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 2: me and said he wanted to join the cops, I'd go, well, yeah, okay, yeah, 758 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 2: that's good, and I'd tell him what, you know, tell 759 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 2: him what the risk would, what the downfalls were, but 760 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 2: I'd also tell him that it's an amazing career where 761 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: he'll meet the best mates he's ever you know, he's 762 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 2: ever had in life, and he will see, as we say, 763 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 2: you know, a side of life that you'll never see 764 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 2: anywhere else, and it will teach you some, you know, 765 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: amazing life skills. Whether or not i'd suggest, and what 766 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: I say to a lot of people is, you know, 767 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: maybe just think about doing it for five years, for 768 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 2: thirty years, you know, because if you do it for 769 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 2: five years, it'll give you an amazing set of life 770 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 2: skills and skills that are really transferable into other industries. 771 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 2: So I kind of think that's what I would do. 772 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 2: I certainly I would never talk anyone out of it 773 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 2: because I just feel incredibly fortunate that, you know, I've 774 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 2: had a good career. I've enjoyed the vast majority of it, 775 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 2: and I think it's a really really worthwhile occupation. 776 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's certainly rewards that come from it. There's the pressure, 777 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: and you look like you've come out relatively sane, which 778 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: is always good. There's no twitches or anything I could 779 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: pick up at this stage. 780 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: But no, well I think so. And you know, that 781 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 2: was what was important to me as well, because I 782 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: can't in knew and this is what you know, we 783 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 2: discussed the other day when you know, you know, and 784 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 2: it's a bit like the footy player wake up and 785 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,800 Speaker 2: just think, you know, just there's too many aches and pains. 786 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 2: I want to do it anymore. And that was where 787 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 2: it came to with me, And I was really adamant 788 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 2: that I wanted to leave on good terms. And you know, 789 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 2: because we've all seen, you know, too many of our 790 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 2: colleagues who leave on bad terms and hate the job 791 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: and hate everybody in it. And I never wanted to 792 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 2: get to that stage because you know, I don't feel that. 793 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 2: I feel incredibly privileged and so yeah, you know, I've 794 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 2: got no ill feeling towards towards any of it at all. 795 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: Well that's good, yea that and we all want to 796 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: leave on good terms. I left with a criminal charge, 797 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: which I suppose is not the best of terms, but 798 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: I look back and I still love that every day 799 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: in the cops, and yeah, it's a robust nature of 800 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: policing and I still look back and think, yeah, it 801 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: was great. 802 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: There's a lot of things in my I mean, and 803 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 2: I never, you know, thankfully never had to face anything 804 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 2: like that. But there's a lot of part of my 805 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 2: career as well where you do go you know, like 806 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 2: as you know, you get complaints or whatever, and you know, 807 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 2: and they're really kicking in the guts and the job 808 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 2: can be really difficult at times and really challenging, but 809 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 2: I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives. 810 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a good way to finish, Andrew, and 811 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for your service to 812 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: the community both in the UK and Victoria and the 813 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: role model that you were because I think it's important 814 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: good good people people learned. I learned from good people. 815 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: I'd like to think I passed some of those skills on. 816 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: I can see in the way that you conduct yourself 817 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: you would have been passing those skills on that you 818 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 1: picked up. And it's a shame we didn't work together. 819 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: I like the way that you go about your business, 820 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: and I think we could have got some backuts. 821 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely right, Well we should still do it. Maybe 822 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 2: get a TV show together. You know what was it 823 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 2: called the one in the UK they I'll detect is 824 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 2: getting all right? 825 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: Okay, we can't come out come out of the retirement. 826 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 1: Well look, thanks very much, all the best for the 827 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: future and yeah, stay in touch. Thanks cheers. 828 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 2: H