WEBVTT - #2113 Digital Vodka - David Gillespie 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.000 Good team. It's the bloody project. That's you, Tiffany and 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.040 Cook over there in the fancy ritchy area of Melbourne 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:10.080 that she lives in Glaspow up there in the bloody 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:15.160 jungle in Queensland. Will start with the smart one. Good I, tiff. 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:17.040 Good I. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:19.799 We'll go to the beautiful one next. How are you? 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:20.600 How's your day been? 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:22.639 I've been fabulous? Thank you. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.880 Well you should thank me because I just finished twenty 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.520 minutes ago training you and your gorilla boyfriend. You're the 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.880 andethal boyfriend who can cook chock brown in like world 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:38.960 class apparently. Yeah, oh well, good for you, doctor Gillespie. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.320 Welcome to the show. Fourteen days later, here we are, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:42.920 how are you? 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:48.400 Yeah? Good good? Yeah, it's been a yeah follo out. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.519 Fourteen days for me actually feels like several months. 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.600 Actually, I thought you tried to avoid work as much 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.720 as possible. How dare you? Yeah? 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.440 Well, the new book's coming out twenty eighth of April, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:02.240 and so there's a bit of stuff that has to 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.800 happen ahead of that, including producing the actual book. 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.679 So yeah, Well, because you're you're the world's worst at 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.440 fucking self promotion. If I managed you were, if I 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.160 was your agent or any I'd be like, dude, do better, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.240 so give us, give us without doing anything sales. You 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:21.920 just tell us about what you can about the book. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.800 Uh yeah, I'd rather than at the moment. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.479 That's a terrible start my case. 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.280 It's called the Attention Recovery Plan, right, and it is. 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.160 There's a lot of stuff written about, including by me, 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:45.840 about the damage that devices and addictions are doing to us. 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.120 So you know, the social media gaming, all that kind 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.080 of thing, and I've written a lot about that and 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.120 made it really really clear that the biochemistry tells us 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.760 that this is no different to substance abuse, and it's 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:08.680 having the same consequences, which is severe addiction, anxiety, depression, psychosis, schizophrenia. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.040 And you know, we're going to hell in a handbasket 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.760 as a society because the rates of those things are 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:21.880 increasing incredibly quickly because we're addicting everybody. And so I've 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.079 written about that before. We've spoken about it before, I've 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.400 written books about it. The most recent time was a 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.520 book I wrote called Brain Reset a few years ago. 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.280 This is about Okay, that's brilliant, thanks for scaring me 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.800 to death. What do you do about it? And the 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.919 answer can't be well, chuck your phone in the bin, 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:47.240 because if it were that easy, it wouldn't be an addiction. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:53.399 So that's not what this book's about. This book's about 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:58.400 how do you intentionally recover your attention? How do you 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:03.519 intentionally recover your focus? How do you, I guess, for 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.079 want of a better term, go through a focused workout 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.600 to make sure you can still do it and you 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:15.680 can still apply your mind. And how do you combat 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:21.679 the inevitable disease wave that comes with addiction, the anxiety, 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:25.919 the oppression, the ADHD, all of those things. So this 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:30.640 is an intensely practical book about what do you do? 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.400 So there's a little bit of science in there, some 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.480 of it you're recognize from things that we've discussed over 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:40.440 the years, but it's mostly about what do you do 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.440 about it? And there's a lot of step by step 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.400 guide's a lot of planning exactly what to do, how 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:51.000 to organize your workspace, how to organize your personal life, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.240 all of those sorts of things to ensure that you 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:55.760 maintain focus, fitness. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:02.320 Wow, that's good. And the fact that it it's outlining 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.200 the problem but really talking about and presenting a solution. 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.520 I love and it is. It is interesting when you 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.480 think that, like whether it's booze or whether it's gambling, 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.559 or whether it's drugs, or whether it's pawn or whether 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:22.520 it's foo, it's I mean, it's the addiction is kind 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.640 of the same in a way. It's just a different 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.120 pathway to a similar addiction, right. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.799 It's exactly the same. From a biochemical perspective. Your brain 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.479 can't tell the difference between a gambling addiction, a gaming addiction, 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.479 a social media addiction, or an addiction to heroin. It 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.840 can't tell the difference from a biochemical perspective, They're all 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:46.760 exactly the same. 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.520 And without giving away anything, you can't, so feel free 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:57.920 to not answer it. Did you where did you? Did 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.760 you talk to people who had overcome this addiction? Did 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.520 you talk to addiction specialists? Did you read a million 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.039 papers as you do? From where? Did you kind of 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:15.880 create or formulate your suggestions or your kind of recovery models. 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.719 It's a combination of a few of those things. The 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:22.560 book has a lot of stories from you know, anonymised obviously, 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.200 but a lot of real world stories from people who've 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.080 struggled with these things. You know, things like dating app addictions, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:36.599 gaming addictions, gambling addictions, and so on, and real life 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.800 stories of that. And the reason for putting those in is, 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.680 rather than me just banging on about all this is bad, 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.520 I want people to be able to read the story 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.320 of a person and identify them, see themselves in the story, 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:52.920 see something that they're doing, because one of the difficulties 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.240 with addiction is it usually comes with an enormous moral judgment. 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:06.359 As this there's this general sense that if you're an addict, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.920 it's because you're weak or you're in some other way faulty, 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.920 and you just need to get your act together and 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.240 we can't help it. It's just it's ingrained in the 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.800 way we operate as humans. You know, if you see 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.280 someone addicted to pornography, it's because they've got something wrong 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.920 with them, or you see someone addicted to gambling, they're 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.040 weak in some way. But that's not what's going on. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.960 What's going on is a very intentional perversion of some 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:41.760 biochemistry in the human brain by people who are doing 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:46.400 it to make money. And we need to not lose 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.800 sight of that that this is a business model we're 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:56.080 talking about here, and this book is about fighting that 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.680 business model and keeping your own brain to get us. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.640 And I guess the reality is, as much as we 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.200 don't want to hear this, if we put aside morality 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.320 in all of that, just for this hypothetical, it's in 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:16.200 the interest of a lot of these companies and apps 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.160 and all of that to get people addicted because it's 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:20.320 financially rewarding. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.800 Well, we've said this before. You know, when the product 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.480 is free, you are the product. And that's what's going 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:33.800 on in when people are selling addiction. It's the point here, say, 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.000 for whether it's a playing games or gambling or on 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:43.200 social media, it costs billions of dollars to develop, maintain, 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:48.640 and run something like Facebook or Instagram, and what does 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.440 it cost you to do it? Nothing? Not a sense. 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.640 That just doesn't make sense as a business model. That's 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.200 totally insane. And that's because that's not the business model. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:03.880 The business model is capturing seconds of attention, yes, or 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.120 engagement as it's often called, and then reselling that to 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.440 the highest bidder, and the best way to do that 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:11.680 is to addict people. 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.120 We talk about it a fair bit, but it feels 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.600 to me like everyone kind of like what we've well, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.920 some of what you've said so far will be revelatory 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.640 to some of it will bit like, oh wow, I 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.440 didn't really think about it. But I think most of 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.360 us kind of know that there's a problem around social 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.199 media and the like. But I also feel like while 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.080 we we kind of get intellectually that it's a potential 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.400 threat for some people in some ways, if not all 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.240 of us, we don't hold it in the same regard 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:46.600 as booze or heroine or gambling or some of the 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.640 I guess the addictions that we would call life destroying 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.600 or destructive, but it seems like which it isn't, but 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.520 it can almost seem like, oh yeah, it's kind of 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.560 an addiction, but it's not one of them, the danger ones. 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:07.000 There's two aspects to addiction, which people often mix up 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.160 because when you talk about let's say a substance addiction 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.280 or you know, things like her and cocaine, etc. People 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.000 talk about the symptoms of that and the badness associated 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:21.520 with that, and what they're actually talking about is the 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.760 side effects. So in order to produce the dopamine spike 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.160 and create the addiction, those things come with side effects 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.320 because they're drugs, and a lot of those side effects 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.000 are what people associate with addiction, but that isn't addiction. 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.520 Addiction is the dopamine spike that's produced in the first place, 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.120 and the damage done by that is not from the 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.439 side effects, or it's not the primary damage from the 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.200 side effects. If you didn't think about something like gambling, 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.720 there's no real side effect from gambling in the same 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.240 sense of substance abuse, but no one would fight with 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.240 you over the notion that it's very definitely an addiction. 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.600 What's going on there is that dover meanspike is being 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.720 produced by behavior, which is gambling, and that dover meanspike 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:14.000 is having the consequence that you become anxious and depressed, 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.760 that you create chaos in your life by running out 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:22.120 of money, and that in turn makes it even worse. 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:29.200 So that's a pure form of what happens in addiction. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.480 And when people wave away things like Instagram or dating 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:38.080 apps or gaming and say, well, that's not the same thing, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.680 they're mixing the two up. Yes, there are no instant 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:46.560 downside side effects from substance consumption, but the effect on 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.880 the brain is identical, which is why we're seeing anxiety 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.920 rates in teenagers go through the roof. It's why We're 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.480 seeing depression go through the roof. It's why schizophrenia is 0:10:55.480 --> 0:11:00.280 that epidemic proportions, It's why suicide is going crazy. It's 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:05.400 because these are the flow on effects of addiction. So 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.400 people waving away something because it doesn't have a substance 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.160 abuse side effect doesn't make it any less addiction. 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.800 It's so funny. I've even with adults, and maybe for me, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.240 it's almost like this is like the impact of if 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.560 we had an impact scale of these things that went 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.599 from zero to ten, and we go, well, ten is complete. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.040 It's hijacked your life in your brain and you really 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.560 need you really need help, and then write down to 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:40.400 almost like disordered eating through to an eating disorder. So 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:43.200 I think, you know, the level of impact kind of 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:50.360 grows without us even realizing. But it still comes down 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:55.400 to like our awareness around it now, willingness to acknowledge it. 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.560 But I was having a chat yesterday with a made 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.520 of mine who's fifty five. Was something he's got grandkids 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.800 and his kid, his son took his iPhone off his 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.240 well I don't know, nine year old or ten year 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.800 old for a week, and the kid lost his shit. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.840 I mean he and he was there when that, like 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.320 he happened to be there and I don't know what 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.280 the kid did, but the consequence of what he did 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.040 was no phone for a week. Well you think you 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.160 would think, he said to me, it's like they fucking 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:26.480 chopped his leg off. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.760 Or it's like any other addict when you take away 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:37.160 the thing that they're addicted to. M that's what's going 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.880 on here. And people will often say to me when 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.240 I talk like this, they'll say, yeah, but I'm not, 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.560 as you know, I don't really have addiction. Sure, I 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.000 don't mind a bit of gaming or a bit of 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.080 gambling or you know, get on the social media or someone, 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.880 but I'm not. I'm not addicted. You know, there's no 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.880 problems there. And often I'll say to them, well, sure, well, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.000 there's an easy way to put through that, you know, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.240 just to lete the apps, and they go, sure, easy, 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.240 do it tomorrow, and they will, knowing in the back 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.360 of their mind that they can reinstall them anytime they want. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.680 But if I say to them, well, just delete the 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:19.000 accounts too, then they're then they're not so easy to convince. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.040 No one wants to delete the accounts because that really 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.760 is stopping and they in their own minds are behaving 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.600 the way that kid is behaving, which is, you know, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.360 they're rebelling against the notion of stopping this, and that's 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.280 a sure sign of addiction. But even if you're not 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.400 prepared to acknowledge that, there are other signs. The early 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:45.320 metabolic signs of addiction are insomnia and focus difficulties, or 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:49.559 what people are now currently describing as ADHD. The massive 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:54.040 title wave of adult diagnosis of ADHD is in fact 0:13:55.480 --> 0:14:00.360 diagnosis of the functional effects of addiction, which is should 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.360 focus that comes from being an addict. It's been measured. 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.040 It's forty seven seconds I think is our average ability 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:13.480 to stay on task at the moment, and that has 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:18.000 been a massive decline. And what's happening on a society 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:22.320 wide basis is we're fracturing everybody's focus. That's the first 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.120 thing to go. Focus is the first thing to go. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:28.280 It's the first sign that there's a problem. Then you 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:33.680 start noticing things like insomnia, you start noticing stress growing 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:39.120 to anxiety, growing to depression and so on. But ask yourself, 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.760 am as I am I as focused as I remember 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:43.960 being ten years ago? 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:52.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Well, I mean everyone who 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.960 is addicted thinks they're not addicted, or most people, if 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:56.600 they do. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.120 Or if they do, think they're addicted, or no, they're addicted, 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.080 or at least suspec most of them don't like the 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:04.880 fact that they are and will deny it. 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:11.640 Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I had to, like, in all 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.360 of my meetings and stuff, even if I just had 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.760 my phone near me and it would chime or it 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.960 would like there would be something I would I would get. 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.640 I would in the middle of the thing. I wouldn't 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.920 pick up my phone, but I would. I would. My 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.680 attention would shift a minute to the fucking phone. And 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:33.800 it's not like I went, oh, that dinged I think 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.520 I should. I just looked before I'd thought, like, it's 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:38.440 Pavlov's dog. 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.800 You know, it's exactly like Pavlov's dog. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:43.680 It's a trained response. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.920 Yeah, And just you know, if anyone's not across those experiments, 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:53.200 what Pavlov did was get some dogs to cellivate when 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.320 they heard a bell ring, and the reason was he 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.080 ring the bell and then give them something to eat. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.840 And then he got them to ring. Then the experiment 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.160 progressed on and it'd ring the bell and not give 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.760 them something. To eat and they'd celebrate because their brains 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.640 have been trained. When that bell rings, I'm going to 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.600 be rewarded. And that's what's going on with notifications. That's 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.720 why there are notifications. By the way, it's not by 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.880 accident that every app is sending you a million notifications 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.560 a minute. It's that they know that this is part 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.720 of the addictive mechanism and it's a very important part 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.800 of it. In fact, so important that there's a whole book, 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.920 in a whole chapter in the book dedicated to notifications 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.320 and why theyre an important part of addiction and why 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:36.600 they have to be turned off. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:42.160 Bro, you should be doing workshops on this in every 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.560 fucking school in Australia. No, you don't have the time 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.640 or the energy, but I mean, it is so important, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.720 and it's like I think everybody, like even I'm thinking 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.200 about now and what do I and I know we're 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.680 going to have another conversation probably we'll see how we go. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.440 We didn't intend to have one, But this is how 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.520 we work, isn't it. But the door's open down we've 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.240 kind of but I just think, like, and I know 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:10.439 this is often discussed, but talking about real practical like 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:16.560 what's really happening physiologically, psychologically, and strategically from the companies, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.000 and then what's happening in your body and your nervous 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.399 system and your brain chemistry when just to like, you 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.560 know that seek first to understand, like try to understand 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.240 what this is actually doing to you, not via some 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.680 meme on social media, but actually to try to understand 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.040 a little bit about your own body and your own 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.000 brain and the way that things work. And being able 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.520 to recognize that. And the other thing too is because 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:47.439 like there's a diminishing return on the same dose. So 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.760 what used to fucking light you up doesn't light you 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.400 up five years to light you up, now you need ten. 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.600 Three months later, you need two hundred to get the 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.000 same response that you used to get from five. So 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.920 you're training your self up. Oh god, you know. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.879 And even that's pure biochemistry. We've got to switch in 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.040 our brain that every time we give it a dose, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.600 it moves up a notch. It's a rat. So so 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.520 every time we rapchet it up one, it means we 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.920 need a bigger dose next time. And that's by design. 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.000 So that's the way our brain works, it's the way 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.800 our physiology works, and the companies know that and exploit that. 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.240 Now that has really really bad effects on the way 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.040 our brain works, but they don't care about that as 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:37.680 long as we remain addicted to their product. Mmmm. It's interesting. 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.640 One of one of the things I suggest people do 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:45.960 is is introduce the idea of friction. Intensionally, introduce friction. 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.239 One of the things that an addictive anything tries to 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.600 do is remove friction, so it tries to make it easier. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:58.320 So and I give the example of you know, if 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.480 you're a gambler and you had in order to gamble, 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.639 you had to you know, get dressed, walk five miles 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.720 to the casino and then gamble, You'd be much less 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.000 likely to do it. Then if you could just pull 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:14.800 your phone out of bocktt and have a bet right 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.639 there and then so that you get dressed, leave the home, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.760 walk to the casino is friction. And everywhere you can 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.040 introduce friction between you and the addictive behavior is. 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.439 A good thing. And you may or may not have 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.879 any insight into this specifically, but I'm sure you'll have 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:40.719 an opinion. The how is the under sixteen band working 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.159 in Australia? Is that making? Is that doing anything? Or 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.440 is that a is that window dressing. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:51.239 I think it's important, but not for the reasons that 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.720 it's often promoted as being important. People get lost in 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.520 the weeds about this and say it won't work. You know, 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.760 kids will get around this this marter than we are. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.720 They'll figure it out and they will just the same 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.159 as they have around alcohol. Band. Did you know that 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.120 you're not supposed to drink if you're under eighteen in Australia. 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:13.600 I've heard of that. 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.920 You wouldn't know it from observing the average under eighteen, 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.560 but it is the law. And you're not supposed to 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.879 smoke if you're under eighteen either, But it is because 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.159 it is the law. The fact that it is the 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:33.119 law does, however, introduce friction. It does, however, mean that 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.159 a parent can say to a kid, no, you are 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:40.440 not having a beer because you are seventeen. It gives you. 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.280 It gives a parent the ability to fall back and say, 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:49.239 I have the support of my society. The law is 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.640 that this is not possible. Sorry, I don't know. If 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.200 you can hear the dog barking in the background, Well. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.919 That's great. 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.720 Saying I have the backing of society when I tell 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.640 you you're not doing this. So in that way it's 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.520 a good idea. In that way is it allows parents 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.000 and others to say, no, you are not having access 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.200 to this thing because it is against the law. Will 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.560 may still break the law, Yes they will. Does it 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.359 make it harder, Yes it does. 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.840 There's a guy who comes in to the cafe I 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.000 have a coffee out every morning. I'm going to give 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:33.399 me a shout out. He used to play footy in 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:37.440 the AFL Force and killed her. James Gwilt James. And 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:43.159 he's got the gorgeousest little girl in the world, cool rosie, 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.160 and she two and a half and she's got blonde, 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:47.119 curly hair, and she looks like something out of a 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.240 fucking nursery rhyme. And every time she comes in she 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.120 comes straight to me because she sits on my lap 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.239 and watches pepper Pig. That sounds creepy. I don't mean 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.639 it too. Her dad's there. It's all good, right, but 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:04.560 it's and she goes from mayhem to complete focus. By 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.000 the way, we only watched two or three minutes of 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:11.400 pepper Pig, but talk about like this tiny little bundle 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.240 of energy goes to this fully focused cyborg. In a 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:19.399 matter of seconds, just watching Pepper Pig and she only 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.119 comes to me. She don't wonder, she's not interested in me. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:26.480 She's like, I'm the pathway to Pepper Pig. I'm the 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:31.439 conduit to the thing that she wants. Dealer, Yeah, that's it. 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.640 I'm just handing out a little bit of cartoon over 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.280 here in the corner. And I said to her dad, 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.480 how much of this does she Yeah? No, we don't 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:40.960 let her at home. So that's why she fucking loves you, 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.720 because she gets whatever her three minute hit every second 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.320 day or whatever it is. But now I'm feeling like 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.760 I'm a dealer. Now I'm feeling like I'm enabling some 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.199 two and a half year old into a lifetime of 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.840 bloody potential addiction. But it is even at that age 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.080 can have a massive It's not just fourteen, fifteen, sixteen 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.280 year olds, you know, it's toddlers. 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:08.520 Oh absolutely. I mean you don't have to walk into 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:10.960 a supermarket to see that. I mean, you know, all 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.280 the kids in the in the prams are sitting there 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:17.959 set to stunt with an iPad in front of their faces. 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.040 And I'm that sounds like I'm having a go and 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:27.400 I'm not that is a direct consequence of the business 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:31.080 model that is being used. The younger you can get 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.760 people on these things, the better as far as that 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:40.360 business model is concerned. And it's not a judgment about 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:45.119 what's going on. It's just an observation, and I want 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:48.800 people to stand back from it and say, wow, I'm 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.440 not sure I want that to happen. I will happily, 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:56.399 you know, give these kids a shot of vodka to 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.720 calm them down. Am I happy to do it with 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:04.080 digital vodka? Hmm? I saw you laughing there. She's thinking, yeah, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:05.440 I would actually, yeah. 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:07.080 Like the term digital voca. 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.240 No, that's good. That's I'm going to write that down. 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:16.080 That could be today's podcast titled digital vodka. So, I mean, 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:20.879 I know you're not nostradamis, but you're pretty nostrodharmasy. So 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:24.639 obviously you're trying to make a dent, which is great. 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:27.840 And we've got more awareness, which is great. I think 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:30.800 we've got a few more rules and REGs or laws 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:35.280 in place, which is good. But like just humor me 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:39.119